Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[dufox]

even at 30% dmg reduction you're still getting hit for 3-4k.

 

like no one teams healer and tank? like healers have trouble finding someone to guard them? do you even play heals or tank? (if yer op heals perhaps that's easier)

 

what happens is you get stunlocked, you get hit for 3-4k instead of 5-6k, you die one second later than you would have, and then the tank gets demolished.

 

there is no reason to spec full healing as sorc in pvp. cc is so much better cause incoming burst is so high and it's your only chance of surviving it, ignoring the fact that your team takes far less dmg from ccing high dps opponents than you healing that dmg.

 

i play guardian tank

 

1. guard.

2. focus target - yup i mean i actually watch my healers hp.

3. healers hp moving to fast - guardian leap, awe

4. use aoe slow and aoe taunt.

5. leap away and dps.

6. repeat.

 

i wont comment on how the healing is done because i am not one. BUT i know sage, scoundrel, and commando healers that have no problems staying alive (or atleast make them work for the kill) when we use the talents that are given to us.

 

there is more to it than guard + heal and run away

if your not getting guarded by a tank its because they do not see the green numbers that should be above their head, or they have a healer guarded already. (or they are "noob" tanks)

so ill finish what i said before, a tank and healer who work together... can actually survive against a group of people who are working together...

[Oobob]

Quite possibly one of the most correct and succinct posts in this thread.

 

I can't agree with you more:

"THIS GAME ISN'T WOW."

 

Tanks in this game share the burden with keeping people alive. In WoW that was the sole responsibility of the Healer.

 

If anything this game is more like DAoC than WoW in combat design. Healers in DAoC were toast unless a Tank was helping them... However once a Tank was thrown in... Things changed.

 

This happens here too.

 

Let us assume that DPS can output 150% more than a Healer can Heal.

 

So 1 v 1 a Healer will die to a DPS class. (There were a few tricks pre-1.3 that allowed Healers to over heal DPS but it was something that apparently many of the opposing voices in this thread were unable to do. I have been told by a Healer a run with who could manage that that it required Warzone adrenals at key moments something which no longer works.)

 

Now, let us put 2 DPS against 1 Healer and 1 Tank.

 

300% more than the Healer can possibly heal.

 

Now.. Reduce that to 150% due to Guard.

Then, due to a Tank's CC's he can keep one of the DPS unable to attack 30% of the time. Reducing the overall contribution of that DPS by 30%

 

(For those keeping score that number is now 128.5% of a Healer's total healing capability due to the fact that each DPS contributes 150% of a Healer's possible Healing ratio, so one of them is reduced by approximately 43% due to losing 30% of their ability to deal damage. This means it is not 150% + 107% or 257% base, then the Guard is applied reducing that by 50% leaving 128.5% remaining.)

 

For the one he is not locking down through CC he taunts, reducing their damage further by 30% this is specifically targeting the one he isn't CC'ing to increase the overall impact.

 

(More math goes here: We now have to recalculate the numerical data. We still have the CC'ed one having a base of 107%, the other one now has a base reduced by 30% (30% of 150% is a reduction of around 43%) leaving that person at 107% the new base is calculated at 214% reducing the incoming damage due to guard to 107%)

 

That allows the healer to survive the assault by 2 DPS for almost 30% longer than they could survive an assault by 1... This allows the Healer enough time to stun the DPS not being CC'ed which, even if it only reduces the incoming damage by 5% of that person's total DPS still is enough to (as 5% of 150% is 7.5%) to reduce the 2 DPS down to below what the Healer can heal. Granted, this does mean that 2 DPS focus firing a Healer who is Guarded by a Tank shut the Healer down, the Healer isn't dying.

 

1 DPS, at this point, attacking the healer has their 150% or so, which does seem to be what the numbers are showing us. According to most Healers their crit heals are reaching the 5,000 range while the hardest melee hits are reaching the 7,500 range, reduced by 80% (through Taunt and Guard) making their damage contribution against the Healer to be a whopping 30% of the Healer's heal output.

 

The problem they are seeing however is that Healers without Tank (or Healer support) are dying very fast. In fact 2 DPS classes will destroy one without them having a chance, one DPS (even me since the change and my Combat spec is weak against Healers) will destroy them in approximately 6-10 seconds. If, however, that wasn't the case the numbers would break the second you start calculating any Tank involvement on behalf of the Healer.

 

To put it more simply:

 

This game was balanced with the assumption that there would be group tactics in play. This game was balanced under the assumption that a Healer will have a Tank who is Taunting and protecting for them. Trying to balance for Healers who are unable to get a Tank breaks the game for any Healer who does have a Tank.

 

This game is much more tactical than WoW. The tactics of WoW don't work here. If your argument begins with, "When I played a Healer in WoW" then it instantly fails as that is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

this is hilariously wrong.

 

1. for powertechs neural dart and sonic missle don't stack. max reduction by 30%. for guard you just get knocked back or pulled away anyways (assassin etcetc)

 

2. you made up all your numbers anyways so it's not like that even matters as a correction.

 

3. you ignore the effect of cc on the healing output while using it to calculate the dmg reduction of the dps. which is silly, since the classes with the most cc seem to be dps (mara).

 

4. the dps (mara) has cc that ignores resolve while heals and tanks do not.

 

5. since you are considering percent of dps, you are ignoring the fact that the dps can kill a healer in 3 seconds, where as the heal output is limited by gcd so if it falls on the boundary of gcd death still prevents you from healing that back.

 

6. you look like you're taking your healing numbers from some operatives you run with, not sorcs/sages/mercs.

 

7. in this game, most dps seems to have damn near unlimited resources, while the healer is constrained.

 

8. if you honestly can't kill a healer and a tank with 2 dps you are terrible.

 

9. tanking armor is horrible in pvp and does little, to the point it's better to go tank stance in dps gear. this naturally limits the survivability of most tanks.

 

if i am rerolling with 17 points in the lightning tree cause the cc from that affects damage taken so much more than upping my heals that tells you right away how wrecked it is.

 

i play guardian tank

 

1. guard.

2. focus target - yup i mean i actually watch my healers hp.

3. healers hp moving to fast - guardian leap, awe

4. use aoe slow and aoe taunt.

5. leap away and dps.

6. repeat.

 

i wont comment on how the healing is done because i am not one. BUT i know sage, scoundrel, and commando healers that have no problems staying alive (or atleast make them work for the kill) when we use the talents that are given to us.

 

there is more to it than guard + heal and run away

if your not getting guarded by a tank its because they do not see the green numbers that should be above their head, or they have a healer guarded already. (or they are "noob" tanks)

so ill finish what i said before, a tank and healer who work together... can actually survive against a group of people who are working together...

 

i have a bis everything war hero pt tank who guards me. he is the only reason i live at all, besides my cc that i specifically specced 17 points out of heals for. it doesn't matter when you get pulled into the enemy forces by an assassin/2 maras leap to you/etcetc. btw, im a dick with my cc and know how to use it well. it's still hilariously obnoxious. and by group, you mean two. and by survive, you mean survive until i run out of force.

 

you are right. a tank and healer can survive if the healer is an operative. upping my cc is how i survive, which is ridiculously sad.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[Soapland]

"Healers SHOULD NOT REQUIRE GUARD TO LIVE THROUGH 2 PEOPLE. "

 

Really? So you want to be god mode? If you as a healer, can heal through 2 people whacking on you, then you've just rendered 2 dps on the opposing team redundant. How is that balanced? Not to mention if you have a friendly healer cross-healing with you, you'd both be impossible to take down.

[BurnsTwoThree]

I can't agree with you more:

"THIS GAME ISN'T WOW."

What is meant by "this game isn't WoW" is that WoW has had a working, decently balanced PvP system where the imbalances lie mostly in Rock Paper Scissors playstyle. One class may have a mechanical advantage over another but it never comes to the point where it's basically Shark vs Dolphin in any situation other than under-geared/under-skilled players.

 

There are many people who used to hope that this was the WoW killer but since BW has been listening to people like you who bring nothing productive to the forums other than "THIS IS STAR WARS, PvP MIGHT BE COMPLETELY IMBALANCED BUT MY CLASS IS #1 SO DONT CHANGE ANYTHING TO BENEFIT THE PLAYERBASE AT ALL WITH FUN AND INTUITIVE PVP"

 

I'm not sure if you are willingly or unwillingly know that 99% of everything you said is misinformation but seriously, stop it.

[BurnsTwoThree]

"Healers SHOULD NOT REQUIRE GUARD TO LIVE THROUGH 2 PEOPLE. "

 

Really? So you want to be god mode? If you as a healer, can heal through 2 people whacking on you, then you've just rendered 2 dps on the opposing team redundant. How is that balanced? Not to mention if you have a friendly healer cross-healing with you, you'd both be impossible to take down.

 

You guys seem to forget that there is 4 DPS in a WZ not including the offensive capabilities of a lot of tanks.

 

Healers should never be 1-1 to a DPS. Ever.

 

This is where the game will fail if they do not change it. No healer is going to want to PvP if they're going to have some awful overpowered class be able to solo them without playing a flawless rotation and have the best gear out there.

 

You also act like you cannot CC the other healer for 12 seconds~ if their CC break is on CD which is plenty of time to kill a healer that is getting cross healed. All of your complaints with my argument is drastically under thought out.

 

Now come back when you have a real point.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Oobob]

You guys seem to forget that there is 4 DPS in a WZ not including the offensive capabilities of a lot of tanks.

 

Healers should never be 1-1 to a DPS. Ever.

 

This is where the game will fail if they do not change it. No healer is going to want to PvP if they're going to have some awful overpowered class be able to solo them without playing a flawless rotation and have the best gear out there.

 

since they don't play heals, they don't realize that half the game is us running from 4 people between stunlocks.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[BurnsTwoThree]

since they don't play heals, they don't realize that half the game is us running from 4 people between stunlocks.

I know, I keep forgetting.

 

I don't know why I bother half the time.

 

Their spectrum of understanding is like only seeing the color red on a rainbow.

[Elear]

You guys seem to forget that there is 4 DPS in a WZ not including the offensive capabilities of a lot of tanks.

 

Healers should never be 1-1 to a DPS. Ever.

 

So according to you, how many people it should take to kill two healers supported by two tanks?

[Oobob]

So according to you, how many people it should take to kill two healers supported by two tanks?

 

are the healers stunned? are you pulling them with assassin abilities into the dps? are you knocking them away from the tanks? are you ccing one and focusing the other? this question is too broad.

 

use a several second group cc, focus one healer, how long do you think that takes against that group? how hard do you think it is if the escape is on cd? if it is for half the group? it takes about 3-5 seconds to kill a sorc or sage and that's generous. the entire reason the lightning hybrid is needed is that sometimes the bubble will proc on them while they wail on you and you can run away with 3k health.

 

this also ignores that sorcs have 1 heal and bubble that are instacast and if they are running from the group can't do ****. it's hilarious knowing that if i stop i'll die quicker healing myself. i can be neutralized entirely by one dps.

 

this ignoring the fact that right now it's not a question of "how many," but "how long," measured in seconds. that group you mentioned isn't killing ****.

 

the best sorc heal pvp build right now is around 22 consume and 17 lightning specifically because that cc mitigates so much more damage than any heals you have it's stupid not to use it. and even when you die (often), your group will still cc when the shields pop. how is this not broken?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[Elear]

are the healers stunned? are you pulling them with assassin abilities into the dps? are you knocking them away from the tanks? are you ccing one and focusing the other? this question is too broad.

 

use a several second group cc, focus one healer, how long do you think that takes against that group? how hard do you think it is if the escape is on cd? if it is for half the group? it takes about 3-5 seconds to kill a sorc or sage and that's generous. the entire reason the lightning hybrid is needed is that sometimes the bubble will proc on them while they wail on you and you can run away with 3k health.

You're missing the point.

Both teams have CC, and tanks have guards and taunts.

Qustion isn't how long it takes now, I asked him how many people it would take in his ideal world where healers should facetank 2 DPS without any support.

[Lovia]

Strategical complexity? Are you seriously calling throwing guard on a healer and having the tank running around throwing taunts on people strategical complexity? There's nothing complex about it at all. The only complex thing is that a healer has to stay around the tank for a guard at all times just so he doesn't get 3-shot by any random average geared nobody who is getting free-kills because horrible players

 

 

 

 

Evolve? There is no evolving. I can still outheal 90% of full War Hero Sorc/Sages in Ranked even with BM when my job isn't to be in the middle of everything. I know the in's and out's of my class. I also know that Ranked PvP will go nowhere and this game will continue to be on a down-slope if they do nothing to improve it. There's going to be 1 group comp for going to high-ratings with little/no variation. I've been superior to most Sorc/Sage healers since I hit level 20 on it back in January. So I'm tired of hearing the few people say "EVOLVE DERP", when our class is too basic mechanically to evolve at all. There's a point where you cannot do anything else because of how the class is and it needs to change.

 

Anyone who says healers who aren't OP/Smugglers are anywhere near a good place then they are

 

A. Terrible at this game

B. Couldn't kill healers before they were made too weak

C. Not playing their class correctly and still have a hard time with healers

 

Hell even OPS and Smugglers could use a little something.

 

1. Nerf Pyrotech/Vanguards and Marauders/Sentinels

2. Buff other uncommonly played DPS Spec/Classes, make them viable

3. Buff healers to that they do not have to get trained by terrible players button mashing just because they can

4. !?!?!?!?!?!?

5. Profit

 

First of all thanks for the very fast reply. I think you did an awesome job on keeping one of the most debated issues currently in swtor in a nice thread to not be overflawed from the avalance of nerf x cause i said so threads.

 

Yes i am seriusly calling a moving buff tactical complexity in an mmo, because this games and generally the gaming scene isnt quantum mechanics or biochemistry, its press 20 buttons.

Not to mention that the moving buff can be tossed to any1 not just healers or must be canceled if you want some1 to guard you! I am pretty sure though you understand this and you are experienced in the game.

 

What you want is to be able to shine on your own, well as it stands you share the role of the defender with the tanks and you need them to pull through, i assume the game could be the opposite instead for the tanks to have all the cc and all the lockdowns and the dps would need them to shut healers down, well thats not the case with swtor as it stands and thats not the intended game design or the direction the developers want to go to.

 

As the game is now the only way for you to shine is tag along a good tank and play a role in your team, win and have fun through celebration of achievement knowing that although ppl wont drool over you effort you were integral to your teams success.

 

The next evolution of your playstyle, is team player. It only sucks cause for the dpsers this isnt the case, they just do as they please, but if its any consolation and only in the competitive scene, dpsers that find good healer+tank tag teams against them they will need to resort to the same amount of team play and co-op to counter you.

[Oobob]

You're missing the point.

Both teams have CC, and tanks have guards and taunts.

Qustion isn't how long it takes now, I asked him how many people it would take in his ideal world where healers should facetank 2 DPS without any support.

 

facetank 2 dps, lol, what game are you playing. you can't even survive against one for more than 4 seconds without a cc heavy build.

 

you missed the point that who should win depends entirely on the secondary abilities of the players. you ignored that dps gets ccs that ignore resolve, can pull the healer to them, interrupt almost every sorc heal, and completely shut people down. or that sorcs can only heal while stationary with long interruptable heals and die too quick in the middle of that mess to even get significant heals off. and i'm fairly certain none of you understand how healing doesn't scale with expertise compared to dps in this game, cause man healing is outclassed by dps in wh gear.

 

you keep talking about how many, and you ignore that if that tank is cced, i can't just sit next to him in guard range. i get murdered cause now they're both on me. i have to run out of the guard range away from other players, at which point the murdering also occurs. there's no escape. and if i stop, i can't outheal any dps for any length of time, so im done.

 

asking "how many dps vs how many tanks" is completely missing the point that the secondary mechanics play a huge role in this game that you've completely ignored. there's no answer to your question as asked because it ignores the huge amount of secondary mechanics you completely gloss over in your post. i get the sense a lot of you ignore it, because before 1.2 the people who understood that could (eventually) kill me, whereas now they can completely shut me down.

 

the answer to your question is probably more than now, less than 1.2, but you keep asking for specifics on a completely unquantifiable scenario that depends heavily on secondary abilities and team composition. probably because you think it will reveal some absurd desire to be unkillable, instead of a wish to survive outside of stunlock for more than 5 seconds.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[Elear]

facetank 2 dps, lol, what game are you playing. you can't even survive against one for more than 4 seconds without a cc heavy build.

You're missing the point.

Both teams have CC, and tanks have guards and taunts.

Qustion isn't how long it takes now, I asked him how many people it would take in his ideal world where healers should facetank 2 DPS without any support.

Healers SHOULD NOT REQUIRE GUARD TO LIVE THROUGH 2 PEOPLE.

Now kindly read and notice question isn't directed at you, and don't bother responding.

[BurnsTwoThree]

facetank 2 dps, lol, what game are you playing. you can't even survive against one for more than 4 seconds without a cc heavy build.

.

 

Also I love how he said facetank as if we're expecting to just stand there and take the punishment while we simply heal ourselves through it.

 

What we are truly saying and have said many times in this thread is that healers cannot use a slow or stun off of CD with more than 1 DPS on them because of how our heals are we cannot manage to live through it. If we put a slow on someone and we're at 50% health from just getting jumped, there's a good chance that the other DPS is going to kill use slighly after we begin to cast any sort of heal that might give us a shot at redemption.

 

Even though using the slow/stun is what we should be doing anyways to help our survivability. The thing about it is that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. We should not have a CD that little makes one of them useless for 4 seconds but in-turn does not give us any positives other than we die after the stun in 4 seconds instead of 2 (and not from any of the damage of the stunned player either).

[Oobob]

Now kindly read and notice question isn't directed at you, and don't bother responding.

 

which doesn't change the fact you asked a meaningless question with no real answer to set up a strawman like "oh he thinks he should survive against 1 million dps players hitting 3 to heal."

 

if i had 2 ccs available and forcespeed, i should always beat 2 dps in the sense i can run back to my group. if i have none available, i should die. if they have interrupts available, that should change it. what kind of response do you even want? "3.419 dps?"

 

Also I love how he said facetank as if we're expecting to just stand there and take the punishment while we simply heal ourselves through it.

 

that's the best part. like they don't even notice the absurd los or force speed or cc or crazy nonsense we have to do to even survive against 1. wonder how many ops are gonna have healers if this keeps up?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[BurnsTwoThree]

w

that's the best part. like they don't even notice the absurd los or force speed or cc or crazy nonsense we have to do to even survive against 1. wonder how many ops are gonna have healers if this keeps up?

 

Not to mention that usually if we Force Speed around the nearest or only LoS , they can usually be right on us before

our big heals finish casting so if either we don't get a heal worth casting off at all or we only get 1-2 ticks of Innervate which is just barely better than a Dark Heal crit.

 

Factor in that any Sith Warrior or Jedi Knight can throw their lightsaber at you and crit you for 4.5k. Have fun with that cause you're screwed if you try casting after that because they'll just leap to you.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Oobob]

Not to mention that usually if we Force Speed around the nearest or only LoS , they can usually be right on us before

our big heals finish casting so if either we don't get a heal worth casting off at all or we only get 1-2 ticks of Innervate which is just barely better than a Dark Heal crit.

 

my favorite is when i break cc with full resolve and i get rooted by a class that can do that in the middle of my forcespeed. or when i get pulled right back by another player. or how about when everything goes right, you get away, and then some ranged execute ability a melee class has for some reason kills you at 25%.

 

lol, i bet they don't even realize that you say dark heal cause casting dark infusion is begging for death. 2.2 seconds with 10% alacrity for 3kish non-crit, roflmao. that's a little more than half a good mara hit. in pve i cast it for 4k in full campaign everything but belt/bracers (though i have one resolve 25), bis everything mods, 941 power, and it still sucks. that's our "big heal." half the damage of one hit from one dps over 2.2 seconds that begs to be interrupted.

 

the worst part is that i could get shut down pre 1.2. if the people knew what they were doing i was done. some nerf was necessary - or at least the bug fix for the double proc - but we weren't unkillable unless the dps ignored everything but big numbers flying across the screen.

 

i don't even get the argument. if my cc heal hybrid mitigates more damage than my heal build due to stun something is hilariously wrong with a game relying on the holy trinity, even with "unique" pvp roles.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[BurnsTwoThree]

the worst part is that i could get shut down pre 1.2. if the people knew what they were doing i was done. some nerf was necessary - or at least the bug fix for the double proc - but we weren't unkillable unless the dps ignored everything but big numbers flying across the screen.

 

i don't even get the argument. if my cc heal hybrid mitigates more damage than my heal build due to stun something is hilariously wrong with a game relying on the holy trinity, even with "unique" pvp roles.

That was the MOST that should have happened to us.

 

Too bad they didn't give other healers much appeal pre-1.2 the only reason bad DPS only couldn't kill Sorc/Sage healers was because you'd rarely see many of the other two classes. A few beast Merc/Commandos here and there and even fewer OP/Smugglers that could match us but that was about it.

[Oobob]

That was the MOST that should have happened to us.

 

Too bad they didn't give other healers much appeal pre-1.2 the only reason bad DPS only couldn't kill Sorc/Sage healers was because you'd rarely see many of the other two classes. A few beast Merc/Commandos here and there and even fewer OP/Smugglers that could match us but that was about it.

 

i agree. the sad part is most people didn't see the synergy between sorc and other heal classes because of it. you shouldn't fear 2 sorc healers - fear a sorc + merc (pre 1.2, now just laugh at the bored bubblebot).

 

these people see high numbers in wzs and don't realize that's from spamming bubble, ring and purge. it didn't help us win or do anything significant cause when i was respawning i couldnt heal, we lost half our team, and the objective fell. it's like the trash player mentality of bigger numbers took over and is being used to justify everything.

 

so my ring gets me huge numbers - it still didn't keep the tank up, it just healed marginally damaged dps characters who are gonna die for sure now that the tank and i are dead. the trash player mentality of bigger numbers = better player took over and i think that's influencing how they balance the game.

 

if our burst and damage output for being the squishiest class wasn't terrible compared to every melee class but operative, i'd say reroll dps. how does the glass cannon have the lowest burst in the game besides possibly mercs? how does melee dps with invulnerability and leap have better kiting and defensive tools? i don't even understand how this makes sense to anyone.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[ProfessorWalsh]

this is hilariously wrong.

 

1. for powertechs neural dart and sonic missle don't stack. max reduction by 30%. for guard you just get knocked back or pulled away anyways (assassin etcetc)

 

Nobody ever said Neural Dart and Sonic Missile. Max Reduction is 30% followed by a further 50% reduction from guard. I never claimed otherwise.

 

2. you made up all your numbers anyways so it's not like that even matters as a correction.

 

Actually I didn't make up those numbers. 150% is the numbers supplied by your side of the argument. When people claim that the Melee DPS are critting for 7,500 and their own crits are only 5,000 that means Melee DPS are doing approximately 150% of the amount Healers can heal. Maybe you should learn how to plot data through analysis.

 

As for the other numbers...

 

30% damage reduction from taunt.

 

50% damage reduction from Guard.

 

30% reduction in up time (and thus damage) from CC is actually about right given how resolve functions with a CC break. Namely a 6 second stun will fill (or nearly fill) a resolve bar which results in a 9 second window in which the person cannot be stunned. 9 + 6 = 15 seconds 5 seconds is 33% of 15 seconds. Technically the damage reduction from loss of up time should be slightly higher than I plotted but I wanted to give your side of the argument an idea stance.

 

10% reduction from the Healer assumes that they suffered an interrupt resulting in 4 seconds of additional delay due to forced cool down then factoring in cast times (and assuming the DPS is smart enough to wait until the cast timer is nearly up to interrupt) adding in a maximum possible additional 8 seconds which now moves the base to 6 seconds of downtime for every 18 seconds of up time, total time added together becomes 24 seconds. Technically this should have been a 20% reduction but it floats due to normal variance and I was estimating low in order to give your side of the argument their best possible leg to stand on. Basically even estimating the impact CC's have on DPS much lower than they should be the Healer/Tank combination is still statistically superior to 2 DPS classes.

 

So... Yeah... If you want to argue that the extrapolation is incorrect that is one thing. If you want to argue that the base is incorrect that is another. However do not state that an extrapolation is made up.

 

3. you ignore the effect of cc on the healing output while using it to calculate the dmg reduction of the dps. which is silly, since the classes with the most cc seem to be dps (mara).

 

Actually I didn't.

 

It is interesting to note that depending on the type of CC it has a lesser or greater impact on a healer. A healer suffering from a root, for example, doesn't lose the ability to heal. A melee DPS on the other hand stuck in a root loses 100% of their damage potential if the target moves out of melee range. The only things that can rob a Healer of their ability to heal are:

 

1. Push (not possessed by Marauders)

2. Pull (also not possessed by Marauders)

3. Stun (the Marauder has one of these, a 3 second stun that stuns the Marauder as well for the duration.)

4. Mez (the Marauder has one of these as well, a 6 second AoE stun that doesn't mitigate a Tank's Guard and if any damage is dealt to any of the targets the target is freed. Interestingly if a Tank is Guarding a Healer and both are stunned damaging the Healer will also break the Mez on the Tank.)

 

Roots and Snares cannot stop a Healer from healing. They can stop DPS from DPS'ing however.

 

4. the dps (mara) has cc that ignores resolve while heals and tanks do not.

 

Tanks do actually. Thank you for playing however. Heck sorcerers have CC that ignores resolve. However the CC's (Roots and Snares) that work through resolve have no direct detrimental impact on a Healer's ability to heal.

 

5. since you are considering percent of dps, you are ignoring the fact that the dps can kill a healer in 3 seconds, where as the heal output is limited by gcd so if it falls on the boundary of gcd death still prevents you from healing that back.

 

DPS cannot kill a Healer in 3 seconds. The most potent DPS combination in the game cannot do that. 3 seconds is one zero moment attack followed by 2 global cooldowns. An actual kill on a Healer at equal gear level takes a minimum of 5-7 seconds. Also no DPS can possibly kill a Guarded healer in 3 seconds. Hyperbole will not help your argument.

 

From a cold start a Sentinel, using the most powerful abilities possible would need a minimum of 6 seconds to kill a Healer.

 

Zealous Slash - To gain 6 Focus (does approximately 1,200 - 1,500 damage at high gear) at the 0 second mark.

Merciless Slash - Costs 5 focus (does approximately 5,500 - 7,500 damage at high gear) at the 1.5 second mark.

Master Strike - Costs 0 Focus (does approximately 5,000 - 6,000 damage at high gear) at the 3.0 second mark and requires 3 seconds to complete.

Strike - To gain 2 Focus (does approximately 1,200 - 1,300 damage at high gear) at the 6.0 second mark.

Dispatch - Costs 3 Focus (will likely kill an unsupported healer) at the 7.5 second mark.

 

Edit:

Prior to the dispatch that damage is only at highest estimate 16,300 damage that is assuming no mitigation on your part. Not even your Sorcerer bubble or a Warzone adrenal adding extra mitigation.

 

A Sentinel can only do this faster if they already had Focus and at which case we cannot account for the possible variables in play as the Healer could also have an HoT on them or other mitigating factors. We also could reduce the damage a Healer takes with Warzone Adrenals, DPS cannot use them to increase damage anymore.

 

6. you look like you're taking your healing numbers from some operatives you run with, not sorcs/sages/mercs.

 

Actually I am taking them from my logs which are from a Sage.

 

7. in this game, most dps seems to have damn near unlimited resources, while the healer is constrained.

 

Most DPS, at least melee DPS, build up their resources rather than deplete them. They begin with none and build up (it is hardly unlimited as I demonstrated above).

 

8. if you honestly can't kill a healer and a tank with 2 dps you are terrible.

 

No. You have no idea here what you are talking about. Again, look at the possible mitigation from Guard and Taunt being used in conjunction with one another. It is far beyond a 50% damage reduction.

 

9. tanking armor is horrible in pvp and does little, to the point it's better to go tank stance in dps gear. this naturally limits the survivability of most tanks.

 

This was something that occurred due to healers being too powerful and being able to adrenal to boost healing prior to 1.3 Tanks in Tank gear are very welcome in most competent groups and Tanks in DPS gear are a liability in ranked Warzones.

 

if i am rerolling with 17 points in the lightning tree cause the cc from that affects damage taken so much more than upping my heals that tells you right away how wrecked it is.

 

That is your choice.

 

i have a bis everything war hero pt tank who guards me. he is the only reason i live at all, besides my cc that i specifically specced 17 points out of heals for. it doesn't matter when you get pulled into the enemy forces by an assassin/2 maras leap to you/etcetc. btw, im a dick with my cc and know how to use it well. it's still hilariously obnoxious. and by group, you mean two. and by survive, you mean survive until i run out of force.

 

If he is BiS and that good then you should know how Taunt and Guard interact with each other and you have stated as much that you do not.

 

you are right. a tank and healer can survive if the healer is an operative. upping my cc is how i survive, which is ridiculously sad.

 

CC grants personal damage mitigation. You only need to do that because your Tank doesn't properly stack the protections or because you are lacking in gear.

 

Edit:

To add.

 

One of the biggest mistakes you, as a Sorcerer, can make if you are being actively guarded by a Tank is to try to Force Speed run away from a DPS. The Tank can't maintain Guard when you try to run and most intelligent DPS, especially melee DPS, will watch for your Guard shield to drop at distance and the Force Leap onto you when the Guard is down. Congratulations as you just increased their effective DPS against you by approximately 50%

 

Run only if the Tank is down or is about to go down. Otherwise, if you know your opponent is mobile, you are walking right into his or her hands.

Edited July 2, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Lovia]

i agree. the sad part is most people didn't see the synergy between sorc and other heal classes because of it. you shouldn't fear 2 sorc healers - fear a sorc + merc (pre 1.2, now just laugh at the bored bubblebot).

 

these people see high numbers in wzs and don't realize that's from spamming bubble and purge. it didn't help us win or do anything significant cause when i was respawning i couldnt heal, we lost half our team, and the objective fell. it's like the dps mentality of bigger numbers took over and is being used to justify everything. so my ring gets me huge numbers - it still didn't keep the tank up, it just healed marginally damaged dps characters who are gonna die for sure now that the tank and i are dead.

 

if our burst and damage output for being the squishiest class wasn't terrible compared to every melee class but operative, i'd say reroll dps. how does the glass cannon have the lowest burst in the game besides possibly mercs? how does melee dps with invulnerability and leap have better kiting and defensive tools? i don't even understand how this makes sense to anyone.

 

if you want to biodrone you can find defences to every argument for example:

Since melees cant dps when they arent in melee range, they get the best defenses and that is highlighted with vanguard/powertechs, since they can do damage outside melee they have the worst defence cds in the game and since R-DPS needs to be stationary to cast they are somewhere in between the 3-god mode cds of the senti/mara and the lack of defensive cds on the vanguards.

 

I personally thing that sage and commando healers need to be brought in like with scoundrels, scoundrels should get a decent non-bursty dps spec with extra mobility tools to match the rest of the melee and sorcerers/commando dps need some sort of love, especially some short of offensive group utility like a laze target or damage that can be triggered by other classes and in general be brought in line with snipers.

[Oobob]

So... Yeah... If you want to argue that the extrapolation is incorrect that is one thing. If you want to argue that the base is incorrect that is another. However do not state that an extrapolation is made up.

 

your numbers are garbage because really there are 4 people on us at once in a giant cc fest where we just eat tons of damage and you're looking entirely at damage and healing numbers while ignoring range/cc/push pull/interrupts on those numbers.

 

you completely ignore secondary abilities. what about push pull away from the tank or into the dps? or into the fire? what about interrupt? or 20% heal reduction? where does that come in your calculations? if i have 3 non-instacast heals that do anything meaningful and there is 1 cc and 2 interrupts between 2 dps, where does that leave a sorc? our only instacast heal is garbage used to proc. where do heal per second calculations come in when you ignore secondary abilities that can completely shut us down and the fact we can't cast while moving?

 

It is interesting to note that depending on the type of CC it has a lesser or greater impact on a healer. A healer suffering from a root, for example, doesn't lose the ability to heal. A melee DPS on the other hand stuck in a root loses 100% of their damage potential if the target moves out of melee range. The only things that can rob a Healer of their ability to heal are:

 

also garbage considering a 2.2 second heal does 3k healing and is begging for an interrupt. that's the point here. they can negate it when you consider they can't outheal the dps in any way, shape, or form without getting interrupted each time, or even if they let you get that heal off. god forbid there's 2 or 3 dps. and you're ignoring saber throw.

 

Zealous Slash - To gain 6 Focus (does approximately 1,200 - 1,500 damage at high gear) at the 0 second mark.

Merciless Slash - Costs 5 focus (does approximately 5,500 - 7,500 damage at high gear) at the 1.5 second mark

 

so with two, it takes about 3 seconds (zealous - merciless - any ability that does 1k-2k+ dmg depending on rng). i hope that in ranked warzones the dps know this.

 

CC grants personal damage mitigation. You only need to do that because your Tank doesn't properly stack the protections or because you are lacking in gear.

 

no it doesn't. the sorc bubble with the right talent grants damage mitigation to every player though an aoe stun that can hit multiple enemies. each aoe stun can mitigate damage for a group of dps around them when activated that also helps other players nearby. it can be clicked to activate. since you can kill a sorc in 3 seconds with two dps, its mitigating tens of thousands of points of damage when triggered correctly near enemies if a guard is not present and around 10k if it is. it can be placed on each player every 20 seconds and also absorbs damage beyond just mitigating damage through cc. this doesn't include the benefit it has for objectives. it is by far a better heal build than 31 in consumption, and you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

i can assure you the tanks i run with stay up while i run back from respawn. they also railshot for crazy amounts, which reduces damage taken by dropping dps like flies far quicker than tank gear. does it matter anyways when the healers always die before the tanks?

Edited July 2, 2012 by Oobob

[Boyana]

Not to mention that usually if we Force Speed around the nearest or only LoS , they can usually be right on us before

our big heals finish casting so if either we don't get a heal worth casting off at all or we only get 1-2 ticks of Innervate which is just barely better than a Dark Heal crit.

 

Factor in that any Sith Warrior or Jedi Knight can throw their lightsaber at you and crit you for 4.5k. Have fun with that cause you're screwed if you try casting after that because they'll just leap to you.

 

 

Hehe, yeah, and then you see people on forums telling to healers "L2kite" and "L2useLoS".

 

---------------

To be honest, there were times when I was trying to kite and use LoS, now I don't bother. Not only that using LoS gives hard time for other healer to heal me, it also means I will not heal anyone. Better to stay in one spot (cough) and heal that tank or someone who can survive longer than me. My pvp turned into me running to bubble up people, cast few small heals and die.

I do not want to be a lure object, thank you very much. Besides, luring people as a healer stopped after 1.3. In ranked warzone only some crappy team will chase you while teammate is capping the turret, planting the bomb etc.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Hehe, yeah, and then you see people on forums telling to healers "L2kite" and "L2useLoS".

 

---------------

To be honest, there were times when I was trying to kite and use LoS, now I don't bother. Not only that using LoS gives hard time for other healer to heal me, it also means I will not heal anyone. Better to stay in one spot (cough) and heal that tank or someone who can survive longer than me. My pvp turned into me running to bubble up people, cast few small heals and die.

I do not want to be a lure object, thank you very much. Besides, luring people as a healer stopped after 1.3. In ranked warzone only some crappy team will chase you while teammate is capping the turret, planting the bomb etc.

 

Except for Marauders and Sentinels who can chase you wherever and not have a problem defend the node at the same time as they'll just leap cause it's guaranteed to be off CD since they have near 100% uptime on any target they want.

 

Since melees cant dps when they arent in melee range, they get the best defenses and that is highlighted with vanguard/powertechs, since they can do damage outside melee they have the worst defence cds in the game and since R-DPS needs to be stationary to cast they are somewhere in between the 3-god mode cds of the senti/mara and the lack of defensive cds on the vanguards.

 

Since melees cant dps when they arent in melee range, they get the best defenses and that is highlighted with vanguard/powertechs,

Since melees cant dps when they arent in melee range

cant dps when they arent in melee range

they arent in melee range

Assassin's and Shadow's

 

What is Project/Shock and Force Storm/Deathfield

 

I'll take terrible responses for $400 Alex.

Edited July 2, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[fungihoujo]

I have both the in-game capabilities, the knowledge of the game, and the understanding of intelligent game design to discuss this. It would be the people who are screaming that Sorcs should have more survivability than Tanks and not need a Guard at all that don't understand this.

 

Game balance is a very delicate thing.

 

What worked in WoW wouldn't necessarily work in TOR. In WoW Tanks couldn't protect Healers, IE they couldn't Tank. Thus in that game Healers became Tanks. In TOR Healers are Healers... Not Tanks.

 

You are a support class. You are not the star. You are someone who helps the team win... Your help is invaluable but you are not an island unto yourself.

 

Honestly... nobody has ever said healers should tank- surviving for over 6 seconds isn't tanking, it's having baseline survival needed in order to do ANYTHING- healing included.

 

You also realize when you say 'DPS don't survive long too', well of course they don't- a single DPS has just killed your healer in five seconds- maybe if healers could get off heals in pvp even against good players you'd be getting healed.

 

But frankly- this is the only defense you ever have- 'you guys wanna be tanks even though none of you said that you wanna be tanks, I'm gonna also ignore every single argument you make and just repeat the same thing I'm always saying'. I'm beginning to doubt you even read any of this.