Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[fungihoujo]

Good sorc/sage healers will get their casts off. They have so much utility including sprint, range stun, slow, knockback + root.

 

Force armor (the shield) is kind of an heal too. It absorbs 3k+ damage. It just can't crit but can be used on the move too. All the other spells are on such a fast cast time that you have more then enough time to get them off in a 1 vs 1 situation vs an equally skilled / geared DPS if you combin them with your utilites and CC.

 

It's another story in group fights, but as allready said healers shouldn't be balanced on group fights just because DPS isn't balanced on group fights neither. Alot of factors determine whether you are succesfull or not in those fights.

 

The sorc slow is terrible- for a class that relies on kiting entirely, the only instant slow has a significantly higher CD than the duration- while classes like marauder, juggernaut, PT can keep up slows permanently. There's no root unless you go fully into madness (which blows for healing) or go hybrid (which removes a huge chunk of bonus healing, you have to spend a lot of time damaging to keep your resource up and can't just heal, AND, you lose your AoE heal which is your best heal as a sorc).

 

Healing doesn't scale well compared to damage- damage first off doesn't get a flat 30% penalty like healing does, but, if you also look at how much healing you get from stats- you get considerably more bonus damage than bonus healing.

 

You have almost no instants- you get a bubble and a HoT, both of which are small and have CDs. The bubble doesn't scale particularly well- from launch until now your top bubble has gone from about 3k to maybe 3.5k damage prevented- now, that said, the bubble is a sorc's best healing ability in pvp since you can actually get it off... but that also speaks volumes for how bad your main heals are. It also can't crit, and thus doesn't benefit from any stats- alacrity, surge, critical. It benefits from power.

 

Dark heal- heals very little for a large cost- with how consumption works it costs you as much life to cast this as you actually heal- it heals on average under 2k health, costs 50 force- consumption costs 11% health (at 18000 that's 1910 health), for 8% force (at 600 that's 48). Using it to heal yourself you'd literally go in circles forever.

 

DI- the good heal- in full BM, with all my CDs used, I can sometimes crit for 5k. Has a 2.5 second cast though- fact is, you will not get this off.

 

When you start to heal yourself or someone, you're taking almost two of their GCDs- during which they can hit you twice, likely for as much or more damage than you're going to heal, they can also use a free GCD to interrupt that heal- meaning you've just spent that time for nothing at all. A dps only has to burst you to kill you, but if they don't kill you in that burst they can still keep trying to kill you or keep you occupied- on the flip side, a healer has to play perfectly during the burst- and unlike the DPS if they fail they just die, if they succeed they still have to keep it up not until they get the upper hand, but until the DPS is able to throw a burst/interrupt combo again... only, most DPS CDs are lower, and a DPS gets the luxury of choosing when they want to go.

 

Ultimately- it ends up with DPS getting to dictate how the fight goes, and the healer having to be reactionary every time, on CDs that are generally much poorer. A DPS can shut down a healer with interrupts or well timed CC- a healer can't interrupt most DPS and can't pressure a DPS in any way. Ultimately- it ends up with DPS having all the freedom in the world, while healers and tanks end up being chained to teammates with how they do being tied directly to how teammates do.

 

Now, the only thing to be thankful for is most action bars look like a mess- there's a good 25+ abilities per class, and that's 15 more abilities than most players can handle. But, against good players- lock down abilities, instant damage and pressure all are given to some of the DPS classes which gives those that are good a big advantage over healers with very little they can do while moving, very little to get out of choke holds, and unfortunately almost nothing in ways of instants and abilities outside of GCD.

 

And, no defensive CDs- why is there only once class with no defensive CDs? No, the CC for sorcs isn't overwhelming- a KB, cast time single target mez and a stun are almost standard for all classes- and other classes often have more, and better slows to boot... while also getting defensives.

 

When you have a class with a cast mez (while other classes not only get aoe, but instant mezzes too), no defensives, almost nothing outside of the GCD (a buff or two, which is fairly standard, and the interrupt- which really only helps against mercs), and almost every heal, especially ones you rely on to keep people living against burst, has a cast time- DI having the longest non-channelled interruptable cast time in the game except for chain lightning... all that adds up to a class with poor ability to be mobile and act quickly in a game that you need to be extremely mobile and get abilities off very quickly, and with both the worst armour mitigation and no defensive abilities.

 

Prognosis isn't good.

[Astarica]

The healer being meatshield is spot on. I had a Voidstar game where I did more DPS than the next 4 guys on my team combined in a blowout loss. Now normally that'd mean I was hitting the wrong targets, except I racked up my numbers while attacking the enemy's 2 Sages for the duration of the entire game (and killed them quite a few times even when they're chain healing each other). In essence those two healers 'tanked' my DPS which is close to half of my team's entire DPS so I guess a lot of their DPS lived because their healers died.

 

But obviously that's totally backwards. You'd never really use healers to 'tank' DPS just so your DPS stays alive. Right now I'm seeing a lot of 2 or even 3 healer formation that just try to tank incoming DPS with even more heals. It's not unbeatable by any stretch of imagination but it highlights how broken the DPS versus healer game is. You either just abandon healing completely, or you try to have so much healing that you basically have healers tank their entire DPS. The latter is unlikely to work against any good team, but the problem is if you go with a 1-2 healer you can literally lose a team that only has 2 good DPS because those 2 guys will kill your 2 healers, putting your team way behind.

[Wheelerific]

Lol. This is just so unrealistic against the best teams.

 

In ranked yesterday there were 5 times in which ALL of my heals were unusable because they had been interrupted. The new job of a healer, it seems, is to distract and lure away. Yes, it worked and we won all of our ranked matches but it WASN'T fun for me to die as much as I did. My team sure had a blast given free reign while I was a pin cushion.

 

This game is rapidly becoming "Where's the healer?"

 

So you're admitting that the role you play in your group constitutes why your group can win consistently, and you're upset about that?

 

You've got issues.

[Darth_Philar]

So you're admitting that the role you play in your group constitutes why your group can win consistently, and you're upset about that?

 

You've got issues.

 

No, he is upset that he rolled a class that is designated a "healer" but whose only actual role is "distraction".

 

You cannot heal as a Sorcerer in this game against skilled opponents. You can run or you can die.

[Astarica]

No, he is upset that he rolled a class that is designated a "healer" but whose only actual role is "distraction".

 

You cannot heal as a Sorcerer in this game against skilled opponents. You can run or you can die.

 

Actually the 'healer' is now the 'tank', because that's where all my damage is going to in every single WZ. And if they can tank my damage, they usually end up winning. Of course it'd help if there's more than me beating on those 2 or 3 healers.

 

And of course if the healer's primary contribution is by tanking, you really have to ask yourself whether you'd be better off just having another DPS. After all, healers are definitely not supposed to tank.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Actually the 'healer' is now the 'tank', because that's where all my damage is going to in every single WZ. And if they can tank my damage, they usually end up winning. Of course it'd help if there's more than me beating on those 2 or 3 healers.

 

And of course if the healer's primary contribution is by tanking, you really have to ask yourself whether you'd be better off just having another DPS. After all, healers are definitely not supposed to tank.

 

If you have a Sorcerer healer that can tank damage this is what you have:

 

A. Terrible Damage

B. Terrible DPS who do not know how to CC the other healers.

 

2-3 seconds of no heals is plenty to enough to burn a geared Sorc/Sage.

[ProfessorWalsh]

If you have a Sorcerer healer that can tank damage this is what you have:

 

A. Terrible Damage

B. Terrible DPS who do not know how to CC the other healers.

 

2-3 seconds of no heals is plenty to enough to burn a geared Sorc/Sage.

 

Right now I'd say healing and Damage are balanced post 1.3

[IsletsReborn]

Right now I'd say healing and Damage are balanced post 1.3

 

You are insane, you must be one of the dps who lose to healers one on one. The only reason anyone would say that is in hopes the game stays the way it is. A healer should be able to heal himself and another person with puttingffort in. You cant do that right now the amount of CC is ridiculous and we have no trump heal to save us, im from a sage perspective. We cant live damage is way too high heals cost too much and heal for too little. The fact ive been killed in one ravage while my trinket is on cd is absurd.

[BurnsTwoThree]

You are insane, you must be one of the dps who lose to healers one on one. The only reason anyone would say that is in hopes the game stays the way it is. A healer should be able to heal himself and another person with puttingffort in. You cant do that right now the amount of CC is ridiculous and we have no trump heal to save us, im from a sage perspective. We cant live damage is way too high heals cost too much and heal for too little. The fact ive been killed in one ravage while my trinket is on cd is absurd.

 

The amount of roots we're seeing now is making is near impossible to do anything. I love the argument that Sorc/Sage can simply Force Speed and Knockback away. If you don't heal yourself for 2-3 seconds it's a death sentence.

 

Overall healers are in a terrible place and it's disgusting that Bioware would allow them to be in this state with the release of Rated Warzones.

 

I also love how TTK to kill healers wasn't a problem before in groups with geared players but the casual players were the ones who were favored causing healers to get stomped with nerfs. I cannot explain how many keyboard turning, undergeared, backpeddling morons I used to see posting videos about how ridiculous healers are yet they were playing like they all had one arm.

[IronmanSS]

What is absurd is any class/build expecting to live thru a 1 vs 2 of equal skill/gear. DPS 1 v 2 you're going down. Healer 1 vs 2 you're going down slightly slower. Tank 1 v 2 you're also going down but you'll last the longest. In any case, moral of the story - don't go 1 v 2 - use your "skill" to call 4 an assist.

 

As for skilled healer vs skilled dps 1 v 1 this is a standoff, healer has to heal themselves and kite/los to stay alive and is effectively "neutralized" - but the dps must chase the healer round the map/poles and keep them 100% focused to have any chance at bringing them down. So the dps player is also effectively "neutralized" since they are stuck chasing this one target and not dpsing anyone else just like the healer is not healing anyone else. So for as long as this hypothetical situation lasts (not long if u have vent in a wz and can say "help"), the teams are now 7 on 7 with 1 team down a healer and the other down a dps. How is this omgwtf unbalanced?

 

With the exception of dps v dps, all other 1 v 1 matchups usually result in a stalemate situation of durations long enough to call for an assist many times over. Tank v dps - losing player had 30 secs to get assistance. Tank v healer & healer v healer - get some popcorn. Bottom line is that these 1 v 1 scenarios are largely a waste of time when your efforts are better applied elsewhere: focusing targets w your team, guarding healers, taunting, interrupting, peeling, and oh yeah playing the objectives. It don't matter who you are, if 4 players focus on you and chain stun, interrupt, root, etc if u don't drop in 10 secs you are probably op.

 

So all things being equal "why not just bring another dps? Probably because heals on a dude that takes 1/2 dmg is "good" while dps on a guy that takes 1/2 dmg is "bad" (gets even better w multiple taunts flyin round). So, hug your tanks, maybe they'll even guard you sometimes.

Edited June 27, 2012 by IronmanSS

[Boyana]

Agreed with OP.

 

I am sure some changes will be done.

[BurnsTwoThree]

What is absurd is any class/build expecting to live thru a 1 vs 2 of equal skill/gear. DPS 1 v 2 you're going down. Healer 1 vs 2 you're going down slightly slower. Tank 1 v 2 you're also going down but you'll last the longest. In any case, moral of the story - don't go 1 v 2 - use your "skill" to call 4 an assist.

.

 

You couldn't be any further away from the truth of the matter. A healer HAS the utility to keep a DPS at bay and to reduce the amount of damage that is incoming. That's the only way a healer should be able to live through two DPS and yeah it should be entirely possible.

 

The problem lies within the fact that we have to stand still a ton more now. We cannot even keep one DPS from running train on us from the amount we have to sit in one spot. In order to keep that one DPS off of us we have to use our slow/stun/knockback. This doesn't help much anymore except for in Huttball as we have to cast 6-7 seconds worth of heals just to get us back in a safe zone.

 

Please, I ask you to know what it is like to have to heal through skilled DPS. You sound like another DPS that used to get wrecked by healers because you did not know how to play your class. Healers should not be free-kills, as of now I have talked to plenty of DPS that still love THEIR classes and have achieved 90+ Valor and say that healers are too easy to kill now.

[Meanerr]

DR curves for the different Expertise values need to be tweaked that's all.

 

Scale damage a tad lower and/or bump healing up a bit.

 

No drastic changes please!

[IronmanSS]

You couldn't be any further away from the truth of the matter. A healer HAS the utility to keep a DPS at bay and to reduce the amount of damage that is incoming. That's the only way a healer should be able to live through two DPS and yeah it should be entirely possible.

 

So, in your dream game, you think that you (1 player) should be able to hold off 2 equally skilled players indefinitely, and that it should take no less than THREE other equally skilled players to actually defeat you... there's a term for that I think.

Edited June 28, 2012 by IronmanSS

[BurnsTwoThree]

So, in your dream game, you think that you (1 player) should be able to "neutralize" the efforts of 2 skilled players indefinitely, and that it should take no less than THREE other skilled players to actually defeat you... there's a term for that I think.

 

Of course, most of this is focused around Ranked Warzones. There's too much coordination going on for the amount of damage that is being put out. CCing a healer and then focusing down another is too simple and easily done. Healers should not die easily. Do healers die easily in WoW? Not even in the slightest. Want to know why? Because WoW has a PvP system in place that requires players to actually coordinate CC and Focuses based on which CDs are being used. People with gear rarely get hit for 20-30% of their maximum health

 

In SWTOR all you have to do is CC and kill a healer that can be killed with 4 abilities which usually comes down to 2-4 seconds depending on how many DPS are on them. Geared healers do not die in 2-4 seconds in WoW, if they did there would not be as many subscribers as there are still after 8~ years.

 

The PvP system needs to be fixed. Damage needs to be toned down. Healers need to be crucial in the sense that they will keep anybody up unless handled properly. There needs to be more CDs for healers in this game. Period.

Edited June 28, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Aesrock]

The incoming damage was stupid in 1.2

 

It is now unplayable in 1.3 as a sage/sorc

 

In 1.2 sure jugs could relic up and adrenal and hit me for 6k+ once every 3min now with the increase to dmg across the board b/c of more augment slots and passive power on relics they can do 5k+ without fail every 12 seconds.

 

Do the math 5k+ every 12 seconds or 6k every 3min. The consistent dmg is far more devastating.

 

Full WH augmented sage 1332 experise.

 

^ this X100

 

If i cast kolto probes x2 on myself and dps spots me, i die before the probes tick...once. Anyone who has played against me knows im no slouch, but this is rediculous. Theres no reason to play a healer in warzones. Healers should not need pocket healers or permanent guards.

[IsletsReborn]

the fact that there are so many people that are stupid enough to say healers shouldnt be able to live through more than one person for a decent amount of time is scary

[IsletsReborn]

^ this X100

 

If i cast kolto probes x2 on myself and dps spots me, i die before the probes tick...once. Anyone who has played against me knows im no slouch, but this is rediculous. Theres no reason to play a healer in warzones. Healers should not need pocket healers or permanent guards.

thank you

[brianmack]

OP is absolutely correct, life sucks as a sorc/sage healer.

 

Let me respond to some posts that refutes the OP:

"Movement is key to a good sorc/sage healer" - yah, duh, we know that and so do you which is why you root us in place and kill us. Besides, is that how BW envisioned my class? A cowardly spec that runs away from battle and begs others for help?

 

"use your obstacles" - Ok, when resolve is up and we can pillar hump here's what happens.... I will circle this pillar for 3 seconds and LOS my attacker, I can't get a decent heal off because I am moving and don't have those abilities. I can't heal my team, well because I los them and again cant heal on the move worth a crap. And that 3 seconds only buys the attacker more time to recover the cooldown that either explodes our faces or locks us in place. During my circle time, teammates die and others can intercept me doing my laps and aid in killing me.

 

"The best healers on my server are all Sorcs/Sages, they just have 3 other healers help them" -- wow, is that the solution, get 3 other healers to keep you up? Damn, so simple.

----------------------

 

I suspect the people that disagree with the OP are not playing this spec, but feasting on them and of course they don't want us back to where we were in pre 1.2 where we could only be soloed by smart dps toons, as it should be. Now, any idiot button smasher can beat me, its pathetic. It takes zero skill to beat a sorc/sage, and I chuckle when a dps has to use a stun to kill me, cuz they are that bad, and we are rewarding this behaviour? This is how you like it, terrible dps getting over on skilled healers? I can pillar hump and los, sprint, throw, etc. all day and it will only by time for my eventual fate. And, it isnt from my lack of skill, it is designed that way, as BW devs admitted.

 

nice topic OP, keep this on top

Edited June 28, 2012 by brianmack

[BurnsTwoThree]

nice topic OP, keep this on top

 

I'm trying. Just did a Ranked Warzone where I got hit with two Saber Throws both crit for 4.5k

 

 

Somebody tell me again that Relics are going to even out damage. I am also getting hit for 5.8k Force Screams.

 

I'd like to hear from anyone who has convinced themselves that this is somehow balanced.

[Astarica]

If you have a Sorcerer healer that can tank damage this is what you have:

 

A. Terrible Damage

B. Terrible DPS who do not know how to CC the other healers.

 

2-3 seconds of no heals is plenty to enough to burn a geared Sorc/Sage.

 

2 Sorcs healing each other can take any one DPS's damage. Of course if you got 2 DPS you got 2 dead Sorcs but it's better than just flat out dying.

 

Right now I'm seeing some teams just try to tank the damage on healers by having 3 of them cross healing each other. It at least has a small chance of working because you need 3 guys who realize that they're supposed to attack healers. If they do you'll lose very badly but at lest you might get lucky. Right now depending on one healer means you get killed if even one person on the opposing team knows how to attack your healer. Requiring 3 DPS to know how to attack (by having 3 healers) at least give you some chance, though it's not much of a chance.

[Spinikar]

I play as a healer, and have since launch, so I like to think I know a thing or two about healing.

 

The problem in PVP now is that DPS do stupid amounts of DPS, and thats not just against healers. I play with Tanks who complain as well. Bioware really needs to tone the DPS output of some players. I just can't comprehend how a single DPS can strip through a team mates health in mere seconds while I have Used Reverification, Resurgence followed by a bubble and the inervate and look, they are still dead.......0.o (BTW, I wear full Battlemaster atm on my healer)

 

No issue with stuns and CC's or the fact healers get hammered the second they wak out onto the warzone. Thats PVP. If your not getting hammered as a healer, then your oppsoing team don't know what they are doing.

[ProfessorWalsh]

"The best healers on my server are all Sorcs/Sages, they just have 3 other healers help them" -- wow, is that the solution, get 3 other healers to keep you up? Damn, so simple.

 

Wasn't the Healer response to DPS when DPS was having problems to, and I quote, "Get another DPS to assist you?"

 

Pot. Meet kettle.

[dalin]

Wasn't the Healer response to DPS when DPS was having problems to, and I quote, "Get another DPS to assist you?"

 

Pot. Meet kettle.

 

One extreme to the next. Now you just sneeze and the healer falls over.

 

I'm leveling a Sage up to heal with. I have a 50 Sorc, I know how bad they are, but in the end it's the playstyle and class I enjoy most. I hope 1.4 brings a few buffs to the Sorc/Sage class. Just one Defensive CD would be nice. I'm just talking about heal spec right now. Believe me, the DPS specs need some love also. It would be nice to play Madness/Balance and not have to go hide every minute becuase you ran out of Force AGAIN.

[ProfessorWalsh]

One extreme to the next. Now you just sneeze and the healer falls over.

 

I'm leveling a Sage up to heal with. I have a 50 Sorc, I know how bad they are, but in the end it's the playstyle and class I enjoy most. I hope 1.4 brings a few buffs to the Sorc/Sage class. Just one Defensive CD would be nice. I'm just talking about heal spec right now. Believe me, the DPS specs need some love also. It would be nice to play Madness/Balance and not have to go hide every minute becuase you ran out of Force AGAIN.

 

The problem is that this was only a problem when DPS were on the receiving end. Yes, Healers should die to DPS, our job, our entire existence, is really hinged on killing Healers. It was, unfortunately, Healers who screamed at us and told us that you should be better than we are and worth a lot more effort. Now that has come back to haunt you.

 

Grab a Tank, let them guard you, and you will be fine.