Vanguard Gets A lot of Hate

[ChaoticDynamite]

For anyone who's been playing a vanguard you had to have encountered some things like this:

 

-Guess who the worst class in the game is? Everyone agrees Vanguard

-The most common in PvE someone calls for a dps for HM or Ops and whispers are you ranged or melee and ask for your spec you say Ranged Vanguard and they continue to ask you so as a vanguard you can stay ranged and you tell them with some abilities yes I can and they say well we need someone who can put out full dps and drop you from the group (happened to me earlier).

 

Now as an assault spec vanguard i get some abilities that are ranged but mixed in with my rotation; are things like stockstrike and Ion Pulse which require me to be within 10m this does not make me a melee dps does it?

Considering the fact we use talents in our vanguard skill trees that are elemental and not kinetic. But one thing that I can say is rather questionable is the Tactics skill tree.

 

Basically what I'm saying is yea us vanguards don't have a lot of cc's and cant stay ranged for all abilities like gunslingers because of this we tend to get up close and personal with our enemies but none of this makes too much of a difference in the long run as we can do our job well without much of the hate,

 

EDIT: I was under geared at the time everything damage wise is ok now so everyone please calm down.

Edited August 1, 2012 by ChaoticDynamite

[Draccman]

You cant hit 300k damage as a vanguard?

[ChaoticDynamite]

You cant hit 300k damage as a vanguard?

no not every wz

[kjfett]

no not every wz

 

300k+ is my average. I'm less than 300k about as often as I am over 450k. In fact, if I'm under 300k, you can bet everyone is and I'm still in the top 3 for damage...the match just ended too soon.

 

you have much still to learn about DPS as a Vanguard-Assault. Your rotation for starters. Leave SS to the shield tanks.

[RickAdams]

Vanguard Dps is melee not ranged. We are most effective in melee range. Therefore, to say that you are ranged dps is very misleading unless you're planning on staying at range during the OPs and can do competitive dps.

[Philosomanic]

Tactics is melee. Assault is mid-ranged. An Assault Vanguard can pull 95% or more of their melee DPS from 10m, and 60-70% from 30m. So you can justifiably claim to be 10m (mid-range) DPS, but not full ranged DPS.

[DrannSantill]

As a level 39 assault spec trooper (final build will be 8/8/25) I am always top dps and over 200k in lowbie warzones. My highest yet is 296k and when I hit 40 for my set upgrade I expect to crack 300k. So vanguard does amazing dps at low levels we will see how it goes at 50 but for me its incredibly amazing as a spec with a hybrid melee range feeling. Rotations is usually Incediary round at range followed by High Impact Bolt or Ion pulse if Im in range then stock strike for the reset HiB if I get it and spam ion pulse till they die. Works like a charm every time.

[kjfett]

Vanguard Dps is melee not ranged. We are most effective in melee range. Therefore, to say that you are ranged dps is very misleading unless you're planning on staying at range during the OPs and can do competitive dps.

 

Melee range. <4

Close range. 5<10

Ranged 11<30

 

None of my skills require melee range to trigger.

I have one skill (IP) that requires me to be in close range to trigger HIB more often.

All my other skills are Ranged attacks.

 

Care to explain how that makes me melee DPS?

 

I am ranged DPS. I am mobile. I am Assault DPS Vanguard.

 

VG abilities that require melee are anchors to a good DPS build.

[kjfett]

As a level 39 assault spec trooper (final build will be 8/8/25) I am always top dps and over 200k in lowbie warzones. My highest yet is 296k and when I hit 40 for my set upgrade I expect to crack 300k. So vanguard does amazing dps at low levels we will see how it goes at 50 but for me its incredibly amazing as a spec with a hybrid melee range feeling. Rotations is usually Incediary round at range followed by High Impact Bolt or Ion pulse if Im in range then stock strike for the reset HiB if I get it and spam ion pulse till they die. Works like a charm every time.

 

That's not Assault. No final build that fails to pick up AP can claim to be Assault or for that matter DPS. It can claim words like hybrid, gimped and fail to describe itself. My lvl12 Commando Assault spec pulls in 200K in sub 50 WZs. Your final spec will still be pulling in 200K damage in lvl50 WZs.

 

An Assault DPS spec that can pull in the damage numbers in lvl50s is http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801cGrbzGGMsZhMZMc.1 or some minor variation thereof, assuming it has AP, Focused Impact and Brutal Impact.

[Hethroin]

That's not Assault. No final build that fails to pick up AP can claim to be Assault or for that matter DPS. It can claim words like hybrid, gimped and fail to describe itself. My lvl12 Commando Assault spec pulls in 200K in sub 50 WZs. Your final spec will still be pulling in 200K damage in lvl50 WZs.

 

An Assault DPS spec that can pull in the damage numbers in lvl50s is http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801cGrbzGGMsZhMZMc.1 or some minor variation thereof, assuming it has AP, Focused Impact and Brutal Impact.

 

In full agreement.

[RickAdams]

Melee range. <4

Close range. 5<10

Ranged 11<30

 

None of my skills require melee range to trigger.

I have one skill (IP) that requires me to be in close range to trigger HIB more often.

All my other skills are Ranged attacks.

 

Care to explain how that makes me melee DPS?

 

I am ranged DPS. I am mobile. I am Assault DPS Vanguard.

 

VG abilities that require melee are anchors to a good DPS build.

 

I could be wrong but 10 meters isn't going to be enough to avoid 90% of AOE and other melee centric abilties from most boss encounters. You're still goint to get hit with most ground stomps. You're messing up aoe heals at that range. And you can't really call yourself range if you're not sitting with the range group, which is the issue for most OPs leaders.

 

EV: You're still going to get hit with the AOE from Annihilation droid. Gharj will still knock you back.

KP: Jarg & Sorno, I don't believe 10m is enough range to escape Jarg's flamethrower, which means you'll be on Sorno. If you're an op leader trying to balance melee and range, this is going to throw things off. On the Karragga fight you won't be able to outrange the missile barrage and you have to watch out for the burning oil (something the range doesn't have to do).

Denova: Toth and Zorn, range is on Zorn how do you get outside the 25m range of Shriek?

 

That's all I can think of as I think pretty much all other encounters are range neutral. I don't see how you can say you are range from an Operations point of view. There are too many mechanics that force you into the "melee" group.

 

As for stock strike. Virtually every guide out there has stockstrike in the rotation. It has a 33% greater chance of giving you a free HIB than IP. 45% vs 60%. That's not insignificant. It has the same ammo cost and from my tooltip, seems to do more damage (though this is mitigated by armor while IP is elemental dmg). I honestly don't know on this one, other than the fact that every guide I've looked at has it in the rotation. Possibly because spamming IP will eat through your ammo fast and with a lesser chance to proc the free HIB.

[Philosomanic]

I agree with most of what you said. However, I'd like to rebut this:

 

As for stock strike. Virtually every guide out there has stockstrike in the rotation. It has a 33% greater chance of giving you a free HIB than IP. 45% vs 60%. That's not insignificant. It has the same ammo cost and from my tooltip, seems to do more damage (though this is mitigated by armor while IP is elemental dmg). I honestly don't know on this one, other than the fact that every guide I've looked at has it in the rotation. Possibly because spamming IP will eat through your ammo fast and with a lesser chance to proc the free HIB.

 

"33% greater chance" is highly misleading. It's a 15% greater chance. However, a more accurate and useful way of phrasing it would be this: "Using Stockstrike and Ion Pulse has an 8% greater chance to proc Particle Accelerator than two Ion Pulses". Also, you're leaving out the damage from Plasma Cell with Ion Pulse. Ion Pulse always activates Plasma Cell, which immediately ticks for 1/3 of the tooltip damage. This means that Ion Pulse does an additional 300 elemental.

 

However, no theoretical math will beat parsing it yourself. Sit down in front of a combat dummy and do a couple of 3-minute parses from 4m and 10m.

[CitizenFry]

For PVE, as a Vanguard, you're melee DPS. You happen to have some tools that will make you not as awful as most other DPS if you get forced out to range for a while, but you want to stay at 4m

[RickAdams]

I agree with most of what you said. However, I'd like to rebut this:

 

 

 

"33% greater chance" is highly misleading. It's a 15% greater chance. However, a more accurate and useful way of phrasing it would be this: "Using Stockstrike and Ion Pulse has an 8% greater chance to proc Particle Accelerator than two Ion Pulses". Also, you're leaving out the damage from Plasma Cell with Ion Pulse. Ion Pulse always activates Plasma Cell, which immediately ticks for 1/3 of the tooltip damage. This means that Ion Pulse does an additional 300 elemental.

 

However, no theoretical math will beat parsing it yourself. Sit down in front of a combat dummy and do a couple of 3-minute parses from 4m and 10m.

 

It's a bit misleading, that's statistics for you. But bottom line, if you used both of those abilties 3 times each, you will probably only proc Particle Accelerator once using just Ion Pulses and twice using Stockstrike. Let's use 20 times each since the numbers come out even. You would proc the free HIB 9 times with IP and 12 times with stockstrike. Still seems like 33% more to me. I did however forget about the plasma cell damage. But even so, if you're spamming IP, you'd be clipping a lot of this dot damage as it doesn't stack each time. I wonder if anyone has done a simulation on this?

 

I'm not sure if they fixed it but do combat dummies take into account boss armor, dodge, etc?

[kjfett]

I could be wrong but 10 meters isn't going to be enough to avoid 90% of AOE and other melee centric abilties from most boss encounters. You're still goint to get hit with most ground stomps. You're messing up aoe heals at that range. And you can't really call yourself range if you're not sitting with the range group, which is the issue for most OPs leaders.

 

EV: You're still going to get hit with the AOE from Annihilation droid. Gharj will still knock you back.

KP: Jarg & Sorno, I don't believe 10m is enough range to escape Jarg's flamethrower, which means you'll be on Sorno. If you're an op leader trying to balance melee and range, this is going to throw things off. On the Karragga fight you won't be able to outrange the missile barrage and you have to watch out for the burning oil (something the range doesn't have to do).

Denova: Toth and Zorn, range is on Zorn how do you get outside the 25m range of Shriek?

 

That's all I can think of as I think pretty much all other encounters are range neutral. I don't see how you can say you are range from an Operations point of view. There are too many mechanics that force you into the "melee" group.

 

As for stock strike. Virtually every guide out there has stockstrike in the rotation. It has a 33% greater chance of giving you a free HIB than IP. 45% vs 60%. That's not insignificant. It has the same ammo cost and from my tooltip, seems to do more damage (though this is mitigated by armor while IP is elemental dmg). I honestly don't know on this one, other than the fact that every guide I've looked at has it in the rotation. Possibly because spamming IP will eat through your ammo fast and with a lesser chance to proc the free HIB.

 

First off, PVE is only a portion of the end game for lvl50s and has 0 use in mine and many other Assault spec lvl50s that PVP for end game. All you did was point out that some BW boss models are so big that they expand beyond the normal ranges we see in 99% of PVE combat and all PVP combat. This doesn't disprove my range explanation, nor does it classify us as a profession, melee. It merely points out a flaw in BW's model design.

 

 

 

SS can be used once every 9 seconds and requires <4m usage.

 

IP can be spammed every GCD and requires <10m usage.

 

In both cases, the next GCD can be the same attack so ammo usage is not a justification here.

 

The purpose of giving SS a higher % was to make up for the added danger of going into melee range and the long cooldown.

 

IP on the other hand allows me to stay a little further back and actually move around

 

IP engagement area: 20m diameter area

SS engagement area: 8m diameter area

 

Another issue is the fact that the ability can only happen once per 6 seconds. So let's look at a 12 second attack here. The GCD is 1.5 seconds.

 

In 12 seconds, I can trigger IP 8 times (1.5 second GCD). That's 4 times that I have a 45% chance to proc HIB in 6 seconds. So, I can fire off IP a couple times, proc HIB, fire FS a couple time, fire off IP, proc HIB and still be in the 12 second time frame all while using HIB twice, IP three times and playing in a larger 20m diameter circle, even being able to go outside that 20m circle while using HS and HIB.

 

In 12 seconds, I can trigger SS once (9 second CD). That's one time that I have a 60% chance to proc HIB once in that 12 seconds. If it fails to proc, you have to wait 9 seconds for another try....so what do you do? You use IP, just like me. But to use that SS attack and gain that one chance to proc once with a little more luck, you had to go all the way in to an 8m attack circle.

 

Less mobility, greater risk, for what? If I was already in melee range for Gut or Blitz as a Tactics player or hybrid tank, SS would make sense to have in the rotation, but as an assault, it is not needed. In fact the energy and downsides to going from a larger attack zone to the death zone of most melee professions for that very small increase in proc begins to look downright foolish for anyone not needing to be there.

[kjfett]

It's a bit misleading, that's statistics for you. But bottom line, if you used both of those abilties 3 times each, you will probably only proc Particle Accelerator once using just Ion Pulses and twice using Stockstrike. Let's use 20 times each since the numbers come out even. You would proc the free HIB 9 times with IP and 12 times with stockstrike. Still seems like 33% more to me. I did however forget about the plasma cell damage. But even so, if you're spamming IP, you'd be clipping a lot of this dot damage as it doesn't stack each time. I wonder if anyone has done a simulation on this?

 

I'm not sure if they fixed it but do combat dummies take into account boss armor, dodge, etc?

 

You also apparently forgot that IP is instant and SS is a 9 second cooldown. 20 SS would take 180 seconds. 20 IP can be down in 30 seconds. In fact, in the time it takes to use SS 20 times, I can use IP 120 times.

 

anyway, the free HIB ability only works once every 6 seconds, so in 12 seconds, IP will trigger at least once (odds of 8 attacks in 12 seconds failing to trigger at least once are very, very slim) and possibly even twice. In 12 seconds SS has a 40% chance to not trigger once and no chance of triggering twice.

 

hmm....Sounds to me like IP is making better use of that ability, although at a higher cost of ammo....which is why it's spike damage....but again, this proves I don't "need" SS, nor do I "need" any melee skills....so I am not a "melee" class as Assault.

[Philosomanic]

It's a bit misleading, that's statistics for you. But bottom line, if you used both of those abilties 3 times each, you will probably only proc Particle Accelerator once using just Ion Pulses and twice using Stockstrike. Let's use 20 times each since the numbers come out even. You would proc the free HIB 9 times with IP and 12 times with stockstrike.

 

See, once again that's technically true, but highly misleading. There is no situation in the game when you'll use stockstrike three times in a row, not to mention twenty. Likewise, even if you could use three stockstrikes, you'd only proc it once because it can only proc it every 6s.

 

Here's what's really going to happen. Once the cooldown on Particle Accelerator is up, you're going to try to proc it again. This means using stock strike (if in melee range), followed by Ion Pulse until it procs. Once it procs, you stop and use HiB.

 

In melee range:

• 60% (60% total): You proc with Stock Strike (skill 1).
  
• 18% (78% total): You proc with Ion Pulse (skill 2).
  
• 10% (88% total): You proc with Ion Pulse (skill 3).
  
• 12%: You fail to proc with three skills, and keep trying.
  

 

From 10m:

• 45% (45% total): You proc with Ion Pulse (skill 1).
  
• 25% (70% total): You proc with Ion Pulse (skill 2).
  
• 14% (84% total) : You proc with Ion Pulse (skill 3).
  
• 17%: You fail to proc with three skills, and keep trying.
  

 

 

If we continue those two scenarios out forever, you average needing 1.73 skills for a proc when Stock Strike is available, and 2.01 skills for a proc if Stock Strike isn't available. So by being in melee range, you're using on average 16% more skills (GCD periods) to proc Particle Accelerator.

[DrannSantill]

I can't say I understand why A spec that does not pick up Assault Plastique is "Not a dps build" It seems like personal preference to me. I don't feel like I need one more ability that shares a cooldown with sticky grenade and does marginally better damage. I am still picking up all the damage increases in the other trees and I have only seen positive results with it. Please explain why a build like 8/8/25 Is "Gimped"

[RickAdams]

Well, first of all, the OP was in regards to PVE, so I'm looking at it from a PVE perspective. I don't know why anyone would care in a pvp situation whether you were melee or range. In Operations, it absolutely does make a difference, and 10m or 4, you're still in the melee group with all the same issues.

 

And I wasn't trying to say that you would use stockstrike or IP 20 times in a row. But in any given boss fight, if you're using stockstrike, there will probably be at least 2 or 3 times where you will proc that free HIB with one stockstrike over 2 IPs. If you miss the proc on the stockstrike, of course you're going to followup with an IP and cross your fingers. Why does the CD on stockstrike even matter? It's not like you're wasting a CD using stockstike. The benefit is, on that first hit, you have a greater chance at a proc than using IP. DPS wise, in a PVE situation, I don't know how great the impact is of using stockstrike in your rotation over not using it. But it seems to me you would have better ammo management with using stockstrike because there will be times when you can get that proc in one hit vs 2 or 3. This should also translate into fitting more HIBs in a long fight.

[kjfett]

Well, first of all, the OP was in regards to PVE, so I'm looking at it from a PVE perspective. I don't know why anyone would care in a pvp situation whether you were melee or range. In Operations, it absolutely does make a difference, and 10m or 4, you're still in the melee group with all the same issues.

 

And I wasn't trying to say that you would use stockstrike or IP 20 times in a row. But in any given boss fight, if you're using stockstrike, there will probably be at least 2 or 3 times where you will proc that free HIB with one stockstrike over 2 IPs. If you miss the proc on the stockstrike, of course you're going to followup with an IP and cross your fingers. Why does the CD on stockstrike even matter? It's not like you're wasting a CD using stockstike. The benefit is, on that first hit, you have a greater chance at a proc than using IP. DPS wise, in a PVE situation, I don't know how great the impact is of using stockstrike in your rotation over not using it. But it seems to me you would have better ammo management with using stockstrike because there will be times when you can get that proc in one hit vs 2 or 3. This should also translate into fitting more HIBs in a long fight.

 

Let me see if I can make this easier to understand.

 

Ionic Accelerator can not proc more than once per 6 seconds. So in 12 seconds, the most it can proc is twice. Which is the highest DPS one can push this skill.

 

SS has a 60% chance to proc HIB once in that 12 seconds and will NEVER proc it a second time. In fact, the best it can hope for is 2 HIBs free for every three cycles of IA above and that is only if it actually procs every time, not just 60%

 

IP has eight 45% chances to proc HIB in 12 seconds. Odds of not getting an HIB proc? Almost nil. Odds of getting two HIB Proc? well...WAY over SS and odds of getting three free HIB procs in three cycles of IA are almost guaranteed.

 

It uses more ammo; this is true, but it also is the most effective use of IA. At the least it will be even and at best it is 33% more.

 

Naturally you have to deal with ammo usage in PVE with this, but that doesn't tip the scales in favor of SS.

Edited June 28, 2012 by kjfett

[RickAdams]

Let me see if I can make this easier to understand.

 

Ionic Accelerator can not proc more than once per 6 seconds. So in 12 seconds, the most it can proc is twice. Which is the highest DPS one can push this skill.

 

SS has a 60% chance to proc HIB once in that 12 seconds and will NEVER proc it a second time. In fact, the best it can hope for is 2 HIBs free for every three cycles of IA above and that is only if it actually procs every time, not just 60%

 

IP has eight 45% chances to proc HIB in 12 seconds. Odds of not getting an HIB proc? Almost nil. Odds of getting two HIB Proc? well...WAY over SS and odds of getting three free HIB procs in three cycles of IA are almost guaranteed.

 

I never suggested eliminating IP so I'm not sure why you bring up the cd. In you're example above I would be able to fit 2 SSs and 6 IPs in 12 secs compared to the 8 IPs alone. The point is, that odds are you won't even need any IP shots to proc IA about 1 out of every 7 times you attempt to proc IA. If you can proc IA sooner, then you can start the CD on HIB sooner and fit more during any given fight. The ONLY thing you sacrifice by going with stockstrike in your rotation over IP is about 6m of range and maybe damage (not sure how this pans out). PVE.

[Huggsnotdruggs]

Melee range. <4

Close range. 5<10

Ranged 11<30

 

None of my skills require melee range to trigger.

I have one skill (IP) that requires me to be in close range to trigger HIB more often.

All my other skills are Ranged attacks.

 

Care to explain how that makes me melee DPS?

 

I am ranged DPS. I am mobile. I am Assault DPS Vanguard.

 

VG abilities that require melee are anchors to a good DPS build.

 

lolol close range in your words still = boss aoe.. might as well be melee. vanguard is my main so im not trying to tear you down here but you need to face that you are melee.

[Draekos]

The class is kind of melee. I decided to try the republic side since I've been back and am loving my Trooper, that said it's nothing like my marauder at least PvP wise in terms of needing to be in melee, 10m is huge. This class is amazing though at least through 28 levels so far.

[Skodde]

Let me see if I can make this easier to understand.

 

Ionic Accelerator can not proc more than once per 6 seconds. So in 12 seconds, the most it can proc is twice. Which is the highest DPS one can push this skill.

 

SS has a 60% chance to proc HIB once in that 12 seconds and will NEVER proc it a second time. In fact, the best it can hope for is 2 HIBs free for every three cycles of IA above and that is only if it actually procs every time, not just 60%

 

IP has eight 45% chances to proc HIB in 12 seconds. Odds of not getting an HIB proc? Almost nil. Odds of getting two HIB Proc? well...WAY over SS and odds of getting three free HIB procs in three cycles of IA are almost guaranteed.

 

It uses more ammo; this is true, but it also is the most effective use of IA. At the least it will be even and at best it is 33% more.

 

Naturally you have to deal with ammo usage in PVE with this, but that doesn't tip the scales in favor of SS.

 

What in the... I don't even... What does the above even mean?

 

Are you advocating staying at 10 m range vs 4 m? Why? There is virtually no difference. There is no boss with 5 m aoe in game.

 

Besides, the logic is completely flawed for the following reasons:

 

1. You already specced into 17% more damage for SS and you're not using it.

2. In a five minute fight, SS can be used a total of 30 times. Let's say average SS damage is 2200 (averaged with crits). That's 66K damage. Now, replace it with IP, average damage 1700 (with crits). That's 51K damage, or 15K damage less. 15000 / 300 = 50 dps loss. To give you some perspective - upgrading your chest and legs from rakata to campaign does not provide a 50 dps gain. In other words, 50 dps is huge.

3. Simple truth - SS has a 25% higher chance to proc HIB. You know what that means? It means that if you replace SS with IP, you are going to get less HIB procs and less ammo regen in a limited time window fight. All this, mind you, accompanied by a dps loss from the previous point.