Bioware, Class balance and Powertechs

[MorgothQuick]

So many people in this thread defending the class saying its *not* OP. They almost all have a Powertech Avatar. I loll'd.

 

Seriously, you have a Powertech player saying the class needs a damage/burst nerf. How had can it be to see they are OP atm?!?

 

They do too much damage in too short a period, and have pretty good defences. Something has to give, and with threat boosted this patch there is no reason their damage can stay so high.

Edited June 30, 2012 by MorgothQuick

[Kayse]

so were talking about fights now where you have no CD's and the PT has them all?...hmm ok... yea lets nerf them

 

Every time i need to tell elaborate everything with some baddies trying to protect their FOTM..

 

Pacify - blind him for 6 seconds..thats fine..his elemental/tech damage still goes through and it does nothing, except against rail shot.

 

Saber ward - same thing, but on yourself for 12 seconds. Their elemtanl/tech damage still goes right through.

 

Both of those can just be CC'ed through, same with GBTF.

 

Force camo - Still have dots on us/TD, does nothing for us vs them unless your in combat tree and specced for 100% damage reduction in FC.

 

GBTF - Great, for 5 seconds, then when that goes out we die instantly from burns.

 

So we have 23 seconds to kill a powertech... As i can hardly even count force camo as you cant attack back and if you do vs a powertech its only going to hurt you in your dps race vs them.Best use for it is to get away or let your dots do more damage..but their dots will be doing damage to you as well, or you can hope they will hope to someone else or drop their los..for a second.. You have 23 seconds to do roughly 18-21k damage on a heavy armor class, with 20% damage reduced CD through half of that, while also having the ability to snare/cc you throughout all of your CD's, not to mention their possibility of having reduced elemental damage in their build, while having the biggest bursts in the game. We can't even interupt a single thing they have, all it comes down to is if you can get enough crits..for pyro powertechs its just a sit and wait game, then the "I Win" buttons.

 

Now compare that to a class without a Sentinels survibility..and what do we have? Sage bubbles for 2k damage..Evasion for 3 seconds..Parry for 12 seconds..Force Shroud for 3 seconds.. All they are is cannon fodder for a powertech.

 

All of this while being snared throughout the whole fight, with them most likely with their shield up as well, which is equal to our rebuke (To which we still get hit for 3-5.5, so big woop there?)Sents get 1 thing that give us 100% crits, in watchman, and thats only on our DoTs..for 6 ticks. Now take into account how many CD's i need to use, the several times more complex rotations and CD timing i need to use, in comparison to a powertech who only need to spam the easiest rotation existing in the game who does more DPS than a pure DPS class, and you tell me how that should make any sense at all?

 

 

This statement demonstrates such an utter lack of knowledge of how the spec works, that I don't even know where to begin.

 

Stop exaggerating. Learn the class. Learn to counter. Stop spreading rumours that only make you sound like a baddie.

 

To the OP: it sounds like you're a sorc. Basically, you're paper to the pyro's scissors. Paper calling for scissors nerf. I lol'ed.

 

We just had a 1v1 server-wide tourney on the Ebon Hawk. Guess which advanced class didn't even make it to the semi-finals?

 

L2P.

 

Wrong, I do know how the spec works plenty, and i know what spamming one Ion pulse does in terms fo their ammo and how it makes them worthless for up to 10-15 seconds. When you do anywhere from 1.5-3k an ion pulse..you should very often only need 5-10 anyways, then reload, and do it agian on someone else. He wasnt doing objectives and was only TDM in Huttball, as a vanguard whose only doing dps thats very easy to do, esp with such an OP attack that is spammable.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Kayse

[Serrowherrow]

Excuse me? Not a single logical argument had been presented. My OP sought out to dismiss the obvious reactions to this type of thread, particularly the "we're 'squishy'" rubbish. So because I outlined that at the beginning, I hasn't willing to entertain the idea that powertechs are more squishy than any other DPS (the opposite is my opinion).

 

To be absolutely 100% blunt with you, it is not my job but Bioware's to be in a position to say what needs to be done. No I don't want their PVE capability to be destroyed, but I want their PVP to be balanced. Neither you or I is experienced enough as a game developer (I'm assuming) to realistically assess and pinpoint exactly what can be done to achieve that.

 

My intent is to the label the severity of the issue from the eyes of an avid PVPer, as has become the intent of many posters on these boards. And before you question what that means, I've PVPed on MMOs since Ultima Online in 1998 and on pretty much every MMO since. I don't like to be one of those guys who proclaim their own 'greatness' on a forum, but I'm far from being a 'bad' player.

 

The only thing I could suggest, which I have suggested before, is reshift the position of some of the armour penetration. Over 90% on railshot is far too high, realistically it must be reduced to 40-50% and railshot would still be a high hitting move, just lack the absolute "death blow" characteristic it does now.

 

Well, I apologize for my prior posts - I had pegged you as something else entirely, so now that we can try to move on without the personal attacks, let's get down to it.

 

I think it's safe to say anyone who takes this game seriously doesn't want to see a class be so weak they aren't even considered for ranked pvp (Lookin' at you dps mercs) but don't want to be so strong that there's little reason to take anything else.

 

I concur entirely that Powertech DPS isn't squishier than everyone else, but it really isn't tougher than everyone else either. I feel like their survivability is that of a glass cannon, but being as it is a trait shared by every DPS class except marauders, it's a null point.

 

Right now AP and Pyro are both competitive options, there's an excellent Tactics vanguard on my server that does 500k+ without breaking a sweat and hits for ridiculous amounts on their equivalent of Immolate. The difference between AP and Pyro is AP has sustained DPS, excellent AoE capacity, great kiting/ball-running, and good utility. Pyro is burst and kite, burst and kite, and burst and kite.

 

If any changes occur to Pyro, they need to be done in such a way that the specs remain different - Sustained DPS is already in AP, remove the burst from Pyro and you have a pretty lack-luster DoT spec with resetable railshots.

 

And as I said in a earlier post, such burst is not even guaranteed - there are a multitude of abilities that can and will completely destroy a pyrotech's burst. Force shroud, evasion, obfsucate, oil slick, cover, all these and more can cause a railshot to be parried/dodged/avoided in some capacity. Railshot didn't crit? Hits for about 1600-1800 then.

[Winkywinky]

Every time i need to tell elaborate everything with some baddies trying to protect their FOTM..

 

Pacify - blind him for 6 seconds..thats fine..his elemental/tech damage still goes through and it does nothing, except against rail shot.

 

Saber ward - same thing, but on yourself for 12 seconds. Their elemtanl/tech damage still goes right through.

 

Both of those can just be CC'ed through, same with GBTF.

 

Force camo - Still have dots on us/TD, does nothing for us vs them.

 

GBTF - Great, for 5 seconds, then when that goes out we die instantly from burns.

 

So we have 23 seconds to kill a powertech... As i can hardly even count force camo as you cant attack back and if you do vs a powertech its only going to hurt you in your dps race vs them.Best use for it is to get away or let your dots do more damage..but their dots will be doing damage to you as well, or you can hope they will hope to someone else or drop their los..for a second.. You have 23 seconds to do roughly 18-21k damage on a heavy armor class, with 20% damage reduced CD through half of that, while also having the ability to snare/cc you throughout all of your CD's, not to mention their possibility of having reduced elemental damage in their build, while having the biggest bursts in the game. We can't even interupt a single thing they have, all it comes down to is if you can get enough crits..for powertechs its just a sit and wait game, then the "I Win" buttons.

 

All of this while being snared throughout the whole fight, with them most likely with their shield up as well, which is equal to our rebuke (To which we still get hit for 3-5.5, so big woop there?)Sents get 1 thing that give us 100% crits, in watchman, and thats only on our DoTs..for 6 ticks. Now take into account how many CD's i need to use, the several times more complex rotations and CD timing i need to use, in comparison to a powertech who only need to spam the easiest rotation existing in the game who does more DPS than a pure DPS class, and you tell me how that should make any sense at all?

 

wow lean to play a sent .....sorry man they are allmost free kills for mine...

[Winkywinky]

Wrong, I do know how the spec works plenty, and i know what spamming one Ion pulse does in terms fo their ammo and how it makes them worthless for up to 10-15 seconds. When you do anywhere from 1.5-3k an ion pulse..you should very often only need 5-10 anyways, then reload, and do it agian on someone else. He wasnt doing objectives and was only TDM in Huttball, as a vanguard whose only doing dps thats very easy to do, esp with such an OP attack that is spammable.

 

if you see a Vanguard doing 3k with ION Pulse you should report them to BW for they are hacking....

 

This Is A Public Service Announcement.......... brought to you by winky

[Kayse]

wow lean to play a sent .....sorry man they are allmost free kills for mine...

 

Many powertechs are easy to kill because they are nothing but FOTM, and i never have any trouble with any of them except the fully geared ones who at least know partially what they are doing. Something tells me the powertechs on EB would destroy you Can't wait for X-server pvp... Always finding baddies everywhere i go.

 

Also love how you avoided all of my questions, but i guess they were all rhetorical, but here's the answers to them - you don't. Please learn how to hold a valid argument and not just throw random crap around to try to look more "Skilled" than other people on the forums without actually holding up a position with no skeleton other then "I can beat baddies". Hope you are there for X-server pvp Seeing as you don't really have anything to argue about and you are clearly avoiding obvious facts and protecting the class this whole argument is pointless. So i'll be leavin' now, ciao'.

[Winkywinky]

Many powertechs are easy to kill because they are nothing but FOTM, and i never have any trouble with any of them except the fully geared ones who at least know partially what they are doing. Something tells me the powertechs on EB would destroy you Can't wait for X-server pvp... Always finding baddies everywhere i go.

 

Also love how you avoided all of my questions, but i guess they were all rhetorical, but here's the answers to them - you don't. Please learn how to hold a valid argument and not just throw random crap around to try to look more "Skilled" than other people on the forums without actually holding up a position with no skeleton other then "I can beat baddies". Hope you are there for X-server pvp Seeing as you don't really have anything to argue about and you are clearly avoiding obvious facts and protecting the class this whole argument is pointless. So i'll be leavin' now, ciao'.

 

im sorry ... did you have a question in all that ranting or something?

[StevenKSU]

So many people in this thread defending the class saying its *not* OP. They almost all have a Powertech Avatar. I loll'd.

 

Seriously, you have a Powertech player saying the class needs a damage/burst nerf. How had can it be to see they are OP atm?!?

 

They do too much damage in too short a period, and have pretty good defences. Something has to give, and with threat boosted this patch there is no reason their damage can stay so high.

 

Pray tell what these defenses are so we can all go out and check into the mystical spec that doesn't exist. And don't say heavy Armor and the shield that has a ridiculous cool down timer. Sounds like you and everyone else in this thread are lumping every single PT spec into the same category. ST's get the defense, AP's get sustained dps and a little mobility and Pyros get insane burst and very little survivability. We don't get to run the 31/31/31 spec that you all are talking about.

 

And it is asinine to speculate classes by a person's avatar; maybe some of us just like the way they look. Don't generalized a statement like that, just discredits any argument you might have.

[Vaipyr]

So many people in this thread defending the class saying its *not* OP. They almost all have a Powertech Avatar. I loll'd.

 

Seriously, you have a Powertech player saying the class needs a damage/burst nerf. How had can it be to see they are OP atm?!?

 

They do too much damage in too short a period, and have pretty good defences. Something has to give, and with threat boosted this patch there is no reason their damage can stay so high.

 

I play a tank, not a pyro. Your argument is flawed.

 

Also PT's have ONE defensive cooldown, energy shield. That's it. If you're going to bring up the 15% hot then lol. If you die 1v1 to a non-pyro PT/VG then it's a severe L2P issue. Tanks have no burst. Tactics is fun as hell, but again it's for aoe damage, not killing people with burst. Pyro's are bursty, but they also are squishy as hell. Energy shield is their ONLY defensive cooldown. Anyone that says that anything but a Pyro spec is OP/deadly is seriously afk'ing during fights. There is no other explanation.

[Winkywinky]

I play a tank, not a pyro. Your argument is flawed.

 

Also PT's have ONE defensive cooldown, energy shield. That's it. If you're going to bring up the 15% hot then lol. If you die 1v1 to a non-pyro PT/VG then it's a severe L2P issue. Tanks have no burst. Tactics is fun as hell, but again it's for aoe damage, not killing people with burst. Pyro's are bursty, but they also are squishy as hell. Energy shield is their ONLY defensive cooldown. Anyone that says that anything but a Pyro spec is OP/deadly is seriously afk'ing during fights. There is no other explanation.

 

you would be surprised how much better Tactics is compared to Assault in ranked... running Ion Cell and using guard alone is worth it...

[Larry_Dallas]

Rail shot to 10 meters.

 

Yeah, this is basically the only thing I came here to say. Railshot at 10m and they're back in line with the rest of the melees.

 

Can't reduce Rail Shot. It will kill Mercs. Mercs are already weak enough.

Maybe eliminate RS from PTs and give them Power Shot with some Flame Burst modifications.

 

He's not saying reduce the range on merc railshot. That's fine. He's saying the 30m range on railshot should be exclusive to mercs and PTs should get a RS that goes to 10m. This is the same way it works with most ranged skills for assassins vs. sorcs.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Larry_Dallas

[FeralPug]

Many powertechs are easy to kill because they are nothing but FOTM, and i never have any trouble with any of them except the fully geared ones who at least know partially what they are doing. Something tells me the powertechs on EB would destroy you Can't wait for X-server pvp... Always finding baddies everywhere i go.

 

Also love how you avoided all of my questions, but i guess they were all rhetorical, but here's the answers to them - you don't. Please learn how to hold a valid argument and not just throw random crap around to try to look more "Skilled" than other people on the forums without actually holding up a position with no skeleton other then "I can beat baddies". Hope you are there for X-server pvp Seeing as you don't really have anything to argue about and you are clearly avoiding obvious facts and protecting the class this whole argument is pointless. So i'll be leavin' now, ciao'.

 

I am on EB and have been since launch. Am currently warlord and have 34 ranked wins to 6 losses. I've faced you several times since the merger and notice that you absolutely are unequipped to deal with pyros and it is a L2P situation. I also know that you inflate your damage numbers on the forums. Obviously, you are lying about the ion pulse spam because it is literally impossible to score 400k in that manner. In fact, spamming ion pulse MIGHT net you 100k in a VS match. Maybe. You are demonstrating a clear misunderstanding of class mechanics.

 

You are new to EB, so let me make sure you know your place. There are good marauders on EB. Unfortunately you cannot count yourself amongst them.

 

If I am wrong I'd love to know your ELO and we can compare.

 

Before calling for nerfs, it's always a good idea to L2P.

[Shadow__]

Pray tell what these defenses are so we can all go out and check into the mystical spec that doesn't exist.

 

Heavy armor (~31.5% mitigation in wh gear) and 25% damage shield on a low cd (usually very close to 1 min). Plus several talents to further improve their mitigation that can be taken, depending on spec.

 

The shield bonuses are additive and provide 35% mitigation vs elemental/internal(with the appropriate class buffs, can be talented even higher) and 56.5% mitigation vs kinetic/energy, which are pure tank levels of mitigation. The shield cannot be countered in any way unlike for example evasion or saber ward, where 1 stun completely negates them(since you cannot dodge/deflect/parry while stunned). The shield is equivalent to having around 35% extra hp. On a 1 minute cd...

 

And before this "heavy armor does not matter nonsense", the only class that more or less ignores it are pts. Even annihilation mara's bleeds are only around 35-40% of his damage, and everything else is mitigated by armor. Sorc's force lightning is energy damage btw(sages do primarily kinetic), as some of the posters in this thread are apparently unaware of. The only spec doing primarily elemental/internal damage and/or that ignores armor are pyro pt's. Everyone else, including ann maras, leth snipers, ops etc. do primarily energy/kinetic damage. Operatives can also bypass a lot of armor, but in their current state it takes a good player to use them effectively.

 

For comparison, full wh medium armor is just shy of ~26% energy/kinetic damage reduction. So yes, heavy armor does matter.

 

Also, personally I'd prefer pt's changed rather than nerfed. Make it so that it takes much more skill to pull the numbers they do now. That will be more than enough to 'fix' the class.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Shadow__

[Kayse]

I am on EB and have been since launch. Am currently warlord and have 34 ranked wins to 6 losses. I've faced you several times since the merger and notice that you absolutely are unequipped to deal with pyros and it is a L2P situation. I also know that you inflate your damage numbers on the forums. Obviously, you are lying about the ion pulse spam because it is literally impossible to score 400k in that manner. In fact, spamming ion pulse MIGHT net you 100k in a VS match. Maybe. You are demonstrating a clear misunderstanding of class mechanics.

 

You are new to EB, so let me make sure you know your place. There are good marauders on EB. Unfortunately you cannot count yourself amongst them.

 

If I am wrong I'd love to know your ELO and we can compare.

 

Before calling for nerfs, it's always a good idea to L2P.

 

Clearly you have not. Firstly, look at my gear. Secondly, actually watch me play. Last, actually look at my damage after a game is done, you'll notice the only time im ever out done in damage is when i am in a pug vs a double premade or by a vanguard/powertech for obvious reasons, and that itself is rare. I would gladly duel and beat you, any time, easily. Go ahead and send me a message ingame. Oh, and i also do not overinflate them in the slightest. Hence the links in my siggy, if you woudl actually look, or if you would actually pay attention in warzones vs me, which you clearly have not shall i post my 744k Coast game from earlier today? Or perhaps many of my other 600-850k+ games, i have over 40 saved, at least.

 

As for your rank, I had 2 war heros pre 1.2, and i have one conqueror. I even stopped playing for a month and a half.. so yeah.. Rank doesnt mean a thing, if it did you might actually look "good." As for ranked wins they dontt measure your individual skill but your teams. Not to mention a lot of these ranked fights over here at EB are nohting but pugged, huge accomplishment there, worth a golf clap perhaps? Based on those win i am guessing you are either in BC or Veritas, nice job on stacking shadows I guess? If you are in BC it speaks volumes since you guys never Q normals or Q solo. But not sure which you are in.

 

As for these "Good marauders" Since i've transfered i only have fought 2 who have given me any trouble at all, the rest are all horribad or mediocre at best. Those two i havnt even been able to actually fight 1 v 1 though so i cant say. Those two being Bruka/Trianna, the rest i would love to meet because I have found none other. Rokare is good as well, so 3, these others i want to meet.

 

Edit for today - Here. only died 6 times due to the 3 snipers, i think this will speak by itself. Especially since it seems you are in BC u can appreciate this ;p

Edited July 1, 2012 by Kayse

[ComeAndSee]

Apparently Vanguard Tanks deserved a 20%~ nerf to Stockstrike crit dmg. I get crit for 3800 by other Vanguard's with Rail Shot.

[Kayse]

And why are u crying on numerous pages like a baby for a pyro nerf? to make your life easier?? Iwinwithmyfacerollingwhilesleeping???

 

Funny, I believe it was in the "Power tech balance" threads. Huh, the irony i would post about pyrotechs in a powertech thread. you'd think it was some coincidence or something?

Edited July 1, 2012 by Kayse

[Valerin]

I'm curious... have you played a PT and another class to 50?

 

Actually i have. Funny thing is my 2 (almost 3) year old daughter wat pressing 1 and 2 on my keyboard wile standing in middle of civil war next to a turret i tabbed targets for her wile i was on the phone and she got with using 2 buttons to 2nd highest in damage and got 2 mvp votes.

[TheRedNalroni]

Pyrotech Merc here, and although its a faceroll tab dot dot dot much like the Madness Assassin I dont find them incredibly overpowered. Sure theyre a bug bear if you cant cleanse.

What bugs me is being 4 shotted by Marauders and Juggernauts.

 

But thats likely gear more than anything else being new to 50 and not quite a full set of battlemasters

[Kayse]

Actually i have. Funny thing is my 2 (almost 3) year old daughter wat pressing 1 and 2 on my keyboard wile standing in middle of civil war next to a turret i tabbed targets for her wile i was on the phone and she got with using 2 buttons to 2nd highest in damage and got 2 mvp votes.

 

I actually lol'd

 

some of my friends just in lowbies are loving it...just spam 3 attacks and they get 200-300k each game xD

 

on a side note your daughter is going to be awesome when she grows up, already owning people on SWTOR, evne if its with a powertech. Good on her!

[Vaipyr]

Funny thing is my 2 (almost 3) year old daughter wat pressing 1 and 2 on my keyboard wile standing in middle of civil war next to a turret i tabbed targets for her wile i was on the phone and she got with using 2 buttons to 2nd highest in damage and got 2 mvp votes.

 

Good on her, but doesn't mean much. My 9 year old girl lightning spammed her way to top damage in voidstar before (post-1.2) and I didn't do anything but watch. DerPS really isn't that hard no matter what class it is.

[NoTomorrow]

Remove pt pyro from game. How will we deal with unkillable guarded healers?

[Kayse]

Good on her, but doesn't mean much. My 9 year old girl lightning spammed her way to top damage in voidstar before (post-1.2) and I didn't do anything but watch. DerPS really isn't that hard no matter what class it is.

 

Pfft..but your daughter is 3x as old as his...she clearly has had more experience in using easy-to-play classes.. I fear the day they grow up and become gods of the internet...

[Kayse]

Remove pt pyro from game. How will we deal with unkillable guarded healers?

 

You...you're a sniper...

 

You have confused me..

[Vaipyr]

Pfft..but your daughter is 3x as old as his...she clearly has had more experience in using easy-to-play classes.. I fear the day they grow up and become gods of the internet...

 

lol

 

That.... wasn't the point.... but you got a lol out of me so kudos.

[Estwing]

I am on EB and have been since launch. Am currently warlord and have 34 ranked wins to 6 losses. I've faced you several times since the merger and notice that you absolutely are unequipped to deal with pyros and it is a L2P situation. I also know that you inflate your damage numbers on the forums. Obviously, you are lying about the ion pulse spam because it is literally impossible to score 400k in that manner. In fact, spamming ion pulse MIGHT net you 100k in a VS match. Maybe. You are demonstrating a clear misunderstanding of class mechanics.

 

You are new to EB, so let me make sure you know your place. There are good marauders on EB. Unfortunately you cannot count yourself amongst them.

 

If I am wrong I'd love to know your ELO and we can compare.

 

Before calling for nerfs, it's always a good idea to L2P.

 

wow you have a big epeen you must feel great =) There is only two teams you could be from and they stack OP classes. GG man