Healers are fine. Perfectly fine. In fact probably a little more than fine.

[JMCH]

Unless you're talking about Rescue/Extrication, which is a skill usable only on friendly targets, and therefore shouldn't take resolve into account.

Friendly or not, it's an OP skill in Huttball and shouldn't even exist (I hate being "rescued" when carrying the ball, especially when I end up in the pit with 3k lost hp... after a jump on the end platform).

 

What I intended to say about the healers' differences is real "good" players don't even know what the term "rotation" means, they don't rely on a routine to play efficiently with whatever skills they have, that's even what makes a class' playstyle. As damage dealers, you shouldn't either and should focus on group cohesion instead, which would give a 5-healers group like ours almost no chance to defend 2 nodes. That doesn't require vocal chat or anything specific to "high grade" premades, only good use of the different skills each one has and minimal reflexion.

Edited June 24, 2012 by JMCH

[matslarson]

Friendly or not, it's an OP skill in Huttball and shouldn't even exist (I hate being "rescued" when carrying the ball, especially when I end up in the pit with 3k lost hp... after a jump on the end platform).

 

When other classes have the ability to pull/push enemies around, why is an ally having the ability to pull them back OP? And if your team's idea of a "Rescue" consists of 3k dmg and a trip into the pit, it's your team's fault, not the skill's.

Either way you haven't given a reason for why you think resolve should have anything to do with it. Why would a friendlies-only support skill be affected by a system designed to keep enemies from chaining CCs?

Edited June 24, 2012 by matslarson

[ProfessorWalsh]

When other classes have the ability to pull/push enemies around, why is an ally having the ability to pull them back OP? And if your team's idea of a "Rescue" consists of 3k dmg and a trip into the pit, it's your team's fault, not the skill's.

Either way you haven't given a reason for why you think resolve should have anything to do with it. Why would a friendlies-only support skill be affected by a system designed to keep enemies from chaining CCs?

 

It is only really OP when someone triggers the resolve then the other team does a rescue chain for a score. Those are annoying and unless you were in position to catch a link in the chain nearly unstoppable. True they require coordination to pull off, but usually they are used by premades against pugs.

[Sickboy_]

Stacking healers ruin warzones. It sucks all the fun out of them. The imps on my server have nothing but healers and one or two marauders or powertechs. Half their team is heals the other half is tank and dps.

[Savej]

<<

BW never balances this game around solo Q, and they never will. Why? Because solo queue DOES NOT MATTER. Just like 1v1s don't matter when it comes to balance.

>>

 

Solo Q is what most people do. It matters.

 

Also, the argument that 3-4 people can kill a healer fairly fast therefore healers are fine makes 0 sense. 0. None. Ningun. El No Senso. Null. Does not compute. It's like saying 0/0 is a number therefore cows should be able to watch Avatar if they want to.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Savej

[Smashbrother]

<<

BW never balances this game around solo Q, and they never will. Why? Because solo queue DOES NOT MATTER. Just like 1v1s don't matter when it comes to balance.

>>

 

Solo Q is what most people do. It matters.

 

Also, the argument that 3-4 people can kill a healer fairly fast therefore healers are fine makes 0 sense. 0. None. Ningun. El No Senso. Null. Does not compute. It's like saying 0/0 is a number therefore cows should be able to watch Avatar if they want to.

 

Most people are also terrible at this game. The majority of sentinels, vanguards, and shadows I fight are terrible and I can beat them. But according to you, since the majority matters in balance, then I guess we need to buff those 3 classes.

 

No it does not work like that. No game is ever balanced with the average crappy players in mind.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Most people are also terrible at this game. The majority of sentinels, vanguards, and shadows I fight are terrible and I can beat them. But according to you, since the majority matters in balance, then I guess we need to buff those 3 classes.

 

No it does not work like that. No game is ever balanced with the average crappy players in mind.

 

Actually games are often balanced with "average" players in mind. Games are never balanced with good players in mind.

 

That is why we have things like specs being "simplified" if the average player finds them too complicated. If games were balanced with the "good" players in mind then no classes would ever get nerfed because all of the "good" players would either know how to deal with them or they would be playing them. If you think all that matters are 8 man premades then you are in for a serious reality check.

[Sickboy_]

Most people are also terrible at this game. The majority of sentinels, vanguards, and shadows I fight are terrible and I can beat them. But according to you, since the majority matters in balance, then I guess we need to buff those 3 classes.

 

No it does not work like that. No game is ever balanced with the average crappy players in mind.

 

I can shut down a single healer and kill him or prevent him from healing others unless another healer is also healing him. Which is the case 99% of the time since the imps stack healers. Healers heal each other and tanks guard each other. On their own they're terrible players but they rely on broken mechanics like that to win.

[AlyxDinas]

That is all fine and dandy and does work when there is 1, maybe 2, healers. When you get to 3 and 4 the problem is getting a non-premade team to listen about which one to go after.

 

It can be done. Adraas had good players for PUGs. You could call out and order and they'd usually listen. Sometimes, the order was pretty obvious but if it wasn't you could either a) say "Guys, target Steve before you target Sarah." or, before a match, you can prioritize which marks are most important. "Flame>Star>Gun, guys."

 

People generally listen. They did on Adraas and I haven't had major coordination issue on the Hawk. Does it play out all the time? Of course not. Nothing is foolproof and sometimes you just get flat outplayed anyway. But as much as premades definitely have a leg up on PUGs, pick up groups totally can muster sufficient communication and skill to win.

 

But people are right, you know. If the solo queue bugs you that much, you have the option of grouping. Heck, it's not ideal but most people have Skype. It's free. If you wanted to, you could use it too. Not that it's necessarily needed.

 

By the by, keep trying to use backhanded insults and one day they might actually work.

 

You keep responding to them. Obviously, they are affecting you somehow. The lady doth protest too much methinks.

[matslarson]

It is only really OP when someone triggers the resolve then the other team does a rescue chain for a score. Those are annoying and unless you were in position to catch a link in the chain nearly unstoppable. True they require coordination to pull off, but usually they are used by premades against pugs.

Again, the fault lies with your team. Don't fill the resolve bar prematurely and this isn't a problem. If your team fills your opponent's resolve the instant they pick up the ball they are removing their own ability to counter a friendly pull with their own pull. They shoot themselves in the foot so to speak and it's their own fault.

 

By the by, keep trying to use backhanded insults and one day they might actually work.

You keep responding to them. Obviously, they are affecting you somehow. The lady doth protest too much methinks.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. Insults can never "not work" unless you stop making them so easy. No matter how good you think you are, I was still able to insult you, and the only way you can prevent this is by not posting stupid **** and incorrect "facts." Since you continually respond in fruitless attempts to convince us that you don't suck you simply give us more ammunition. Also Shakespeare quotes ftw.

Edited June 25, 2012 by matslarson

[fungihoujo]

Actually games are often balanced with "average" players in mind. Games are never balanced with good players in mind.

 

That is why we have things like specs being "simplified" if the average player finds them too complicated. If games were balanced with the "good" players in mind then no classes would ever get nerfed because all of the "good" players would either know how to deal with them or they would be playing them. If you think all that matters are 8 man premades then you are in for a serious reality check.

 

So basically you want it made easy enough so that you can easily 1v1 the great healers in the game because you're only average?

 

And BW does think 8 man premades are what matters- why do you think 1.3 is focusing on premade ranked only? You're right though- all the good players have begun playing the sentinel/marauder, I never thought I'd see you asking for your own class to be nerfed but look at that. Consider that the only guides out there are on how to kill sentinels- nobody needs help killing other classes because they're simple and easy for anyone to kill... simplified as you say.

 

Premade versus pug- pug loses. Doesn't matter on healing, tanking, dps synergies- premades tend to have better gear and composition, and of course organization and generally skill too.

 

Now please, continue with the gems, I'm not sure what my favourite is so far in this thread alone.

 

- not knowing any of the facts about trauma, or your inaccurate display of how it is calculated

- being months behind on bug fixes

- asking for healers to be nerfed because you can't beat them as a sentinel of all classes

- saying that sentinels need a buff (I think this one might win for funniest thing I've heard on the SWTOR forums, period)

- saying that fun is when you can always kill a healer easily but not having anything to say about how it might not be fun for a healer to automatically die every time a sentinel decides to kill them

 

Or that you made a thread earlier telling people not to post inaccurate threads asking for nerfs to classes just cause- and are now doing that exact thing as you try to get healers nerfed again and sentinels buffed again.

 

Oh, and

- telling people they can't manage the nerfs they got in 1.2 and suck, while whining about not being able to manage being the most OP class in the game against a role that's been severely nerfed

 

Classic prof, classic prof.

 

I have an idea- why not ask a sentinel to write a guide for you on how to kill healers?

[Achyllis]

I can shut down a single healer and kill him or prevent him from healing others unless another healer is also healing him. Which is the case 99% of the time since the imps stack healers. Healers heal each other and tanks guard each other. On their own they're terrible players but they rely on broken mechanics like that to win.

 

Forgive my ignorance but what does the bolded portion mean?

- You can solo them 1 v 1 but that is meaningless in this game?

- You're upset that they use the tools BW gave them to win? Couldn't your team learn and adapt?

- Mechanics elevating tactics and teamwork over 1 v 1 combat are broken because you don't like them?

 

This just left me puzzled.

[fungihoujo]

Forgive my ignorance but what does the bolded portion mean?

- You can solo them 1 v 1 but that is meaningless in this game?

- You're upset that they use the tools BW gave them to win? Couldn't your team learn and adapt?

- Mechanics elevating tactics and teamwork over 1 v 1 combat are broken because you don't like them?

 

This just left me puzzled.

 

Basically- marauders are a class that isn't used to needing support- they have good defensives, they're king of 1v1, and they have high damage. The preposterous idea that they might have to do team work as tanks and healers absolutely must to survive is blasphemy to people like the prof, who want to be able to lolDPS without thought and auto win.

 

Even look at the prof's previous posts- he's not even really complaining about healers, he's complaining about teamwork, better players and organized players beating him.

 

Next week- the prof will make a thread called 'Nerf Teamwork- how BW put in teamplay because they hate sentinels'.

 

Look forward to it.

[Smashbrother]

Actually games are often balanced with "average" players in mind. Games are never balanced with good players in mind.

 

That is why we have things like specs being "simplified" if the average player finds them too complicated. If games were balanced with the "good" players in mind then no classes would ever get nerfed because all of the "good" players would either know how to deal with them or they would be playing them. If you think all that matters are 8 man premades then you are in for a serious reality check.

 

Starcraft 1 and 2, WoW, Street Fighter, Marvel vs. Capcom, Counterstrike, Mortal Kombat, and pretty much anything competitive would like to have a word with you.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Smashbrother]

I can shut down a single healer and kill him or prevent him from healing others unless another healer is also healing him. Which is the case 99% of the time since the imps stack healers. Healers heal each other and tanks guard each other. On their own they're terrible players but they rely on broken mechanics like that to win.

 

I'd be totally fine with healers cross healing gets nerfed, if dps cross dpsing gets nerfed too. If I can't heal another healer that is getting attacked, why should you be able to have multiple dps attack the same person?

[ProfessorWalsh]

Starcraft 1 and 2, WoW, Street Fighter, Marvel vs. Capcom, Counterstrike, Mortal Kombat, and pretty much anything competitive would like to have a word with you.

 

Oh really now? Starcraft I and II both made adjustments based on things being unfair, these unfair things weren't unconquerable only difficult. Street Fighter tournaments used to outright ban certain characters because only an elite few could utilize them, in the development of those games that was a design point, but because of the difficulty they were made more powerful. In the 90's until the character was brought into line Zangeif wasn't allowed in tournament play, later Akuma was likewise banned. Counterstrike, I assume you actually mean Counterstrike Source, was originally a free mod that underwent many revisions. Mortal Kombat made a number of design decisions based solely on the fact that average players weren't able to perform certain actions.

[fungihoujo]

I'd be totally fine with healers cross healing gets nerfed, if dps cross dpsing gets nerfed too. If I can't heal another healer that is getting attacked, why should you be able to have multiple dps attack the same person?

 

Because then the game would be easier for sentinels- which is like a reward that keeps on giving.

[Smashbrother]

Oh really now? Starcraft I and II both made adjustments based on things being unfair, these unfair things weren't unconquerable only difficult. Street Fighter tournaments used to outright ban certain characters because only an elite few could utilize them, in the development of those games that was a design point, but because of the difficulty they were made more powerful. In the 90's until the character was brought into line Zangeif wasn't allowed in tournament play, later Akuma was likewise banned. Counterstrike, I assume you actually mean Counterstrike Source, was originally a free mod that underwent many revisions. Mortal Kombat made a number of design decisions based solely on the fact that average players weren't able to perform certain actions.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

[Smashbrother]

Because then the game would be easier for sentinels- which is like a reward that keeps on giving.

 

I have no problems surviving just 1 sentinel/mara on my commando healer w/o support. They pretty much shut me down so I can't really heal anyone else, but at the same time they can't really kill me. But then again I'm one of the best commando healers on my server.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Smashbrother

[fungihoujo]

Oh really now? Starcraft I and II both made adjustments based on things being unfair, these unfair things weren't unconquerable only difficult. Street Fighter tournaments used to outright ban certain characters because only an elite few could utilize them, in the development of those games that was a design point, but because of the difficulty they were made more powerful. In the 90's until the character was brought into line Zangeif wasn't allowed in tournament play, later Akuma was likewise banned. Counterstrike, I assume you actually mean Counterstrike Source, was originally a free mod that underwent many revisions. Mortal Kombat made a number of design decisions based solely on the fact that average players weren't able to perform certain actions.

 

And like BW did for SWTOR when they buffed marauders while nerfing everything else- though apparantly massive nerfs to other classes weren't enough for the absolute worst players and they need even more nerfs.

[Helig]

Actually games are often balanced with "average" players in mind. Games are never balanced with good players in mind.

 

I beg to differ. EQ1-2 were. Post-Arena WoW is. EvE is.

 

I obliterate "average" healers on my damage-dealing characters. I end up in a stalemate against good healers. You want "average" players to be able to mow down any healer? Good luck... I respect your knowledge of the Lore, but at this point, I'm rather relieved that you're not on the development team.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Helig

[matslarson]

I beg to differ. EQ1-2 were. Post-Arena WoW is. EvE is.

 

haha the level of players to which EVE is balanced would literally make Walshie **** his pants were he to play it. The interface alone is enough to make average/casual players curl up in the fetal position and cry.

[fungihoujo]

I beg to differ. EQ1-2 were. Post-Arena WoW is. EvE is.

 

I obliterate "average" healers on my damage-dealing characters. I end up in a stalemate against good healers. You want "average" players to be able to mow down any healer? Good luck... I respect your knowledge of the Lore, but at this point, I'm rather relieved that you're not on the development team.

 

This is basically it- he wants poor or average dps to be able to solo kill the best healers- this is his crusade against healing, and he won't stop until he gets everything that isn't the class he played nerfed down to a level at which he will win- which is going to mean some absolutely massive nerfs.

 

Though, by some of BW's terrible balancing decisions so far, I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the design team.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Thank you for proving my point.

 

I don't think you understand the point.

 

They used to outright ban them if it was deemed beyond the average skill level to control the character properly. That was a decision CAPCOM made. Namely Capcom said: "Zangeif is too powerful, we intended for him to be more powerful than other characters because he was more difficult to play. In competitive tournament play because those who can control him have an advantage he is removed from play."

 

Namely they removed him from the character select screen.

 

That is balancing to the average, not balancing to the elite.

[Helig]

I don't think you understand the point.

 

They used to outright ban them if it was deemed beyond the average skill level to control the character properly. That was a decision CAPCOM made. Namely Capcom said: "Zangeif is too powerful, we intended for him to be more powerful than other characters because he was more difficult to play. In competitive tournament play because those who can control him have an advantage he is removed from play."

 

Namely they removed him from the character select screen.

 

That is balancing to the average, not balancing to the elite.

 

In the end, they removed him not because he was too hard to play for average players, but because he was too powerful. Working as intended. Designing him around his play difficulty has no bearing on this particular discussion.

 

Even if we do take that into account, they *did* balance it around the elite, because in the hands of "elite", he was more powerful, compared to other characters in the hands of "elite".

 

Also, thank you for grabbing on to a single example that has nothing to do with MMOs and trying to push it to the end. I admire your persistence, really.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Helig