What Vigilance DPS is lacking: Surge Talent

[Jageera]

What I mean by "surge talent" is the 30% (or 50% to some) increased critical damage of SOMETHING, ANYTHING that the spec specializes in that almost all other DPS specs have.

 

Focus Guardians/Sentinels have Focused Resonance. (Force based attacks)

Watchman Sentinels have Searing Saber. (Burn effects)

Combat Sentinels have Saber Storm. (Blade Storm, Ataru Form, and Blade Rush)

Telekinetic Sages have Reverberation. (Weaken Mind, Telekinetic Wave, and Turbulence)

Balance Sages/Shadows have Mental Scarring. (Force in Balance and periodic damage effects)

Infiltration Shadows have Deep Impact. (Force Breach effects and Project)

Sharpshooter Gunslingers have Deadeye. (Speed Shot, Quickdraw, and Trickshot)

Saboteur Gunslingers have Arsonist. (All aoes)

Scrapper Scoundrels have Underdog. (Back Blast, Tendon Blast, Shoot First, and Flechette Round)

Gunnery Commandos have Deadly Cannon. (Full Auto and Demolition Round)

Assault Commandos/Vanguards have Assault Trooper. (Plasma Cell, High Impact Bolt, Incendiary Round, and Assault Plastique)

Tactics Vanguards have Havoc Training. (Stockstrike, Ion Pulse, and Fire Pulse)

 

That leaves Vigilance Guardians and Dirty Fighting Gunslingers/Scoundrels as the ONLY DPS specs that have no surge talent. The results are fairly obvious, really. It's plenty apparent that the devs don't really care to look into something like that.

 

So, Guardian Community, what kind of surge talent would you have liked to see given to the Vigilance tree?

Edited June 10, 2012 by Jageera

[wadecounty]

This is an interesting point.

 

I think adding surge to Plasma Brand and Overhead Slash would make the most sense for the Vigilance tree. It'd be OP to add it to Blade Storm or Dispatch because of the Force Rush talent, although Master Strike is another intriguing possibility.

 

The only issue is, where would you place it? Adding it to Zen Strike would make an already great skill OP, adding it to Sundering Throw doesn't really make a lot of sense. There's no other talent in the 5th tier that I can see it would make sense to add it to either.

 

All that being said, Vigilance Guardian DPS is in a pretty good place right now, both in PvP and PvE, and I don't know that this is really NEEDED, although it'd certainly be appreciated. Force Rush giving near auto crits to Blade Storm and Dispatch is in a lot of ways better than a surge booster, and I can't think of any other class that gets crit rates that high on 2 bread and butter attacks without speccing into something like a hybrid.

[Jageera]

Interestingly enough:

 

Vanguard Shield Specialist has Static Surge. (Stockstrike and Explosive Surge)

Kinetic Combat Shadows have Particle Acceleration. (While Combat Technique is active, damage dealt by Double Strike, Whirling Blow, and Spinning Strike has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Project and make your next Project a critical hit. Accelerated Projects that consume a charge of Force Potency deal an additional 50% critical damage.)

 

This means that the tank specs for Troopers and Inquisitors both have surge specs, leaving Defense guards out.

[Dracosz]

We do NOT need any buffs, our DPS is fine if our gear is optimized and if you have a good spec/rotation.

[Jageera]

We do NOT need any buffs, our DPS is fine if our gear is optimized and if you have a good spec/rotation.

Yeah, our DPS is fine. Most other specs are finer. I'm okay with that, really. I love Guardian gameplay and I love the tools we have that no other class does. All-in-all, however, our DPS isn't on par with most others'. I was simply pointing out one of the reasons why. I'm not calling for buffs... after three major patches with nothing wonderful to show of it, it's unrealistic to expect some love.

 

This thread's simply for the amusement and speculation of the Guardian Community. Nothing more.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Jageera

[Marqhill]

We don't really need a talent like that at all. The frequency with which we throw out automatic critical hits is pretty well unmatched. If we also had a talent that increased our surge then I think we would be pretty insanely over powered. I guess maybe if they replaced the accuracy talent with a taken that increased our elemental damage by 2, 4 and 6% then I could get behind that. But increasing the surge value of a class that is constantly throwing out critical hits. Then you're asking for too much.

[Jageera]

We don't really need a talent like that at all. The frequency with which we throw out automatic critical hits is pretty well unmatched. If we also had a talent that increased our surge then I think we would be pretty insanely over powered. I guess maybe if they replaced the accuracy talent with a taken that increased our elemental damage by 2, 4 and 6% then I could get behind that. But increasing the surge value of a class that is constantly throwing out critical hits. Then you're asking for too much.

Well, what about a talent like Watchman Sents have? Give our burns the surge boost. I don't think anyone here will argue about how underwhelming our dots are. Doesn't affect our high-frequency melee crits at all...

[wadecounty]

Again, our DOT's are less impressive than other classes DOT's because they are gravy to a spec that already hits hard as hell with its initial attacks. I can leap in, do a Master Strike, Plasma Brand, Overhead Slash, Blade Storm, with a couple of Sunders mixed in and hit for over 2k on EVERY SINGLE ATTACK, over 3k if any attack crits. And the way Vigilance is designed, I can repeat that rotation over again indefinitely.

 

I think the main reason people don't like Vigilance as a DPS spec is because its not as brutal as a Combat Sentinel, not as resilient as a Watchman, and not as bursty as a Vanguard, but its got a beautiful mix of all 3 attributes and if played properly, imo, is only 2nd to the Watchman as a PvP spec.

[Jageera]

but its got a beautiful mix of all 3 attributes and if played properly, imo, is only 2nd to the Watchman as a PvP spec.

Oh, I don't disagree... but I feel that that people put too much value on Blade Rush sometimes. Blade Storm isn't affected by Single-saber Mastery or any of the other damage increasing talents. It's actually our weakest attack in the rotation, save for Sunder... and obviously Dispatch is limited by the target's health. We're just as RNG dependent as the next guy, barring Blade Storm and Dispatch.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Vigilance is too weak in comparison to every other DPS spec out there. I just feel that it wouldn't put us over-the-top with a surge talent.

[Kllashaa]

We don't really need a talent like that at all. The frequency with which we throw out automatic critical hits is pretty well unmatched. If we also had a talent that increased our surge then I think we would be pretty insanely over powered.

Pretty much this. As a 1v1 spec, I'd put Vig in between Watchman and Combat, with it closer towards Watchman. There isn't much that a well-played Vig Guardian should fear on the battlefield.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Kllashaa

[Smashbrother]

What I mean by "surge talent" is the 30% (or 50% to some) increased critical damage of SOMETHING, ANYTHING that the spec specializes in that almost all other DPS specs have.

 

Focus Guardians/Sentinels have Focused Resonance. (Force based attacks)

Watchman Sentinels have Searing Saber. (Burn effects)

Combat Sentinels have Saber Storm. (Blade Storm, Ataru Form, and Blade Rush)

Telekinetic Sages have Reverberation. (Weaken Mind, Telekinetic Wave, and Turbulence)

Balance Sages/Shadows have Mental Scarring. (Force in Balance and periodic damage effects)

Infiltration Shadows have Deep Impact. (Force Breach effects and Project)

Sharpshooter Gunslingers have Deadeye. (Speed Shot, Quickdraw, and Trickshot)

Saboteur Gunslingers have Arsonist. (All aoes)

Scrapper Scoundrels have Underdog. (Back Blast, Tendon Blast, Shoot First, and Flechette Round)

Gunnery Commandos have Deadly Cannon. (Full Auto and Demolition Round)

Assault Commandos/Vanguards have Assault Trooper. (Plasma Cell, High Impact Bolt, Incendiary Round, and Assault Plastique)

Tactics Vanguards have Havoc Training. (Stockstrike, Ion Pulse, and Fire Pulse)

 

That leaves Vigilance Guardians and Dirty Fighting Gunslingers/Scoundrels as the ONLY DPS specs that have no surge talent. The results are fairly obvious, really. It's plenty apparent that the devs don't really care to look into something like that.

 

So, Guardian Community, what kind of surge talent would you have liked to see given to the Vigilance tree?

 

Replace gather strength with 15/30% more crit damage for plasma brand, OHS. This would give players a reason to actually go 31 vig because PB would be more useful.

[Alyssis]

I would much rather have some more crit dmg on my overhead slash! Plasma brand hits weak as it is.. with a 30/50/100% more crit dmg, its still weak..! As a two hand lightsaber swinging guardian, we should have freakin hit that actually hurts..!

 

The damn 31pt in the DEFENSE three hurts more then any of our abilities.. where is the logic, i ask you?

Edited June 10, 2012 by Alyssis

[MimicUnleashed]

Pretty much this. As a 1v1 spec, I'd put Vig in between Watchman and Combat, with it closer towards Watchman. There isn't much that a well-played Vig Guardian should fear on the battlefield.

 

AOEs. I'd honestly replace Narrowed Focus with an AOE damage reduction talent while in Shien form. That would give us more survivability for darn near every boss fight in the game. Other than that? Maybe adjust the dots a little. Push the top time limit on Plasma Brand to 9 seconds, increase the damage on the other dots base damage and length to 9 seconds and let us keep up 3 decently strong dots and that'd be perfection for Vig DPS. I could hope for other stuff, but that would make me incredibly happy.

[pianomanhooper]

Pretty much this. As a 1v1 spec, I'd put Vig in between Watchman and Combat, with it closer towards Watchman. There isn't much that a well-played Vig Guardian should fear on the battlefield.

 

lol what... ever heard of a pyrotech ??

[Dracosz]

lol what... ever heard of a pyrotech ??

 

Enraged Defense lets you tank a good deal of PT damage (namely their dots). Good use of enrage to sustain rage and force push is enough to shut down a lot of their initial damage. It's important to remember that PTs are VERY squishy and only have one real defensive CD, they're a lot easier to kill than most people make it out to be...

 

As far as our DPS goes, we're one of the top DPS classes in the game (and if you don't think that's the case, then optimize your gear before you start running your mouth off about your personal situation). I'm not sure what you want out of a surge talent, but we pretty clearly do NOT need it.

 

Here are my stats atm (fully buffed w/ a rakata stim):

 

78.09% Surge

611 Bonus Damage

29% crit

99.1% accuracy

 

If our stats did not scale at the same rate as other DPS, I would agree that something is out of whack. But they don't. If you use the right mods and enhancements, you're going to be in a VERY good spot.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Dracosz

[Karasuko]

Enraged Defense lets you tank a good deal of PT damage (namely their dots). Good use of enrage to sustain rage and force push is enough to shut down a lot of their initial damage. It's important to remember that PTs are VERY squishy and only have one real defensive CD, they're a lot easier to kill than most people make it out to be...

 

As far as our DPS goes, we're one of the top DPS classes in the game (and if you don't think that's the case, then optimize your gear before you start running your mouth off about your personal situation). I'm not sure what you want out of a surge talent, but we pretty clearly do NOT need it.

 

Here are my stats atm (fully buffed w/ a rakata stim):

 

78.09% Surge

611 Bonus Damage

29% crit

99.1% accuracy

 

If our stats did not scale at the same rate as other DPS, I would agree that something is out of whack. But they don't. If you use the right mods and enhancements, you're going to be in a VERY good spot.

 

what sort of numbers per strike are you pulling?

My plasma brand=2100

My sunder=1700

Master strike Total=8k

OHS =3k

 

These are my generic crits without relic or adrenal.

[Aetou]

What's better, +50% damage but only 35% of the time or +75% damage the 65% of the time you wouldn't normally have crit? Our automatic critical talents are actually better versions of the +Surge talents so I'm more than happy with them.

[Jageera]

What's better, +50% damage but only 35% of the time or +75% damage the 65% of the time you wouldn't normally have crit? Our automatic critical talents are actually better versions of the +Surge talents so I'm more than happy with them.

...for only Blade Storm and Dispatch... one of which isn't a cornerstone to the spec (it being force damage) and the other not readily able to be used at all times.

 

Blade Rush isn't SUPER AMAZING. Unremitting is. But that has little to do with damage.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Jageera

[Dracosz]

what sort of numbers per strike are you pulling?

My plasma brand=2100

My sunder=1700

Master strike Total=8k

OHS =3k

 

These are my generic crits without relic or adrenal.

 

Main Attacks

Shatter: 2400-3300 (don't know why the range is so high, tbh)

Sunder: 1800-2100

Ravage: Full ravage ranges from 10k (only crit on the second hit) to 16k (all crit)

Impale: 3.7k-5.2k (again, no clue why it varies so much)

Saber Throw: 2800-3600

Vicious Throw: 5700-6600

Force Scream: 3.4k-4.2k

 

Dots:

Shatter: ~450 on a tick

Chilling Scream: 120 tick

Eviscerate: 80 tick

Edited June 15, 2012 by Dracosz

[Sabredance]

Main Attacks

Shatter: 2400-3300 (don't know why the range is so high, tbh)

Sunder: 1800-2100

Ravage: Full ravage ranges from 10k (only crit on the second hit) to 16k (all crit)

Impale: 3.7k-5.2k (again, no clue why it varies so much)

Saber Throw: 2800-3600

Vicious Throw: 5700-6600

Force Scream: 3.4k-4.2k

 

Dots:

Shatter: ~450 on a tick

Chilling Scream: 120 tick

Eviscerate: 80 tick

 

16k Ravage? Sure ...

 

That´s nonsense.

 

And that´s not the only exaggeration.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Sabredance

[Lacedemon]

16k Ravage? Sure ...

 

That´s nonsense.

 

And that´s not the only exaggeration.

 

Not really considering on any given boss fight you will likely have in addition to your own 5 stacks of sunder; 5 stacks of tracer and the sniper armour debuff (in addition any additional sunder stacks if you use a 2nd jugg)

 

In such cases I've seen the final tick of ravage do 10k on a crit and 7k executes.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Lacedemon

[Jageera]

Not really considering on any given boss fight you will likely have in addition to your own 5 stacks of sunder; 5 stacks of tracer and the sniper armour debuff (in addition any additional sunder stacks if you use a 2nd jugg)

 

In such cases I've seen the final tick of ravage do 10k on a crit and 7k executes.

Aren't you happy they're fixing that for 1.3?

[Zunayson]

Yeah, so instead our moves have insane coefficient damage, oh and a master strike every 3 seconds lol.

[Lacedemon]

Aren't you happy they're fixing that for 1.3?

 

Can't wait!!!

[Dracosz]

16k Ravage? Sure ...

 

That´s nonsense.

 

And that´s not the only exaggeration.

 

Not nonsense at all. If you have fully optimized gear and stats it's quite the norm.

 

I should add that my group has two other armor debuffs (from 2 arsenal mercs) which *will* hurt the overall damage in the patch, however, it only works out to be a 6-9% DPS loss and when you consider the static stat gain we will all get from additional augmented slots the losses should even out.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Dracosz