Vilgilance Guardian DPS Very Weak

[ACiDxCHRiST]

I forgot to mention the importance of Force Rush and Dispatch. Blade Storm and Dispatch should only be used while Force Rush is active. Force Rush is procced by Plasma Brand and Overhead Slash.

 

Once you hit the 30% mark, Dispatch becomes your number one priority and should be used whenever off of cooldown and enough Rage is available BUT ONLY IF Force Rush is active.

[ACiDxCHRiST]

there are times I use master strike, however there are times that using master strike is incredibly stupid (since it can be interrupted in fact try running the black hole heroic sometime you will see it gets interrupted a lot)

 

Who cares. Master Strike is an awesome ability EVEN IF you only get 2/3 of the hits off. Sure, it isn't as good as 3/3 hits but you really need to stop neglecting Master Strike because you are scared of it being interrupted. It doesn't cost Focus and its cooldown gets reset so often if you are specced correctly, it isn't a big deal if it gets interrupted. If you were Defense or Focus specced, I could see you being careful about when you use Master Strike. Vigilance gets to use it so often, you want to use it EVERY TIME you can.

 

Every time you use Plasma Brand or Overhead Slash when you could have used Master Strike first, you just missed an opportunity to have the cooldown on Master Strike finished. That is a DPS loss.

Edited June 12, 2012 by ACiDxCHRiST

[GarfieldJL]

If you're not using Master Strike whenever it's off cooldown in PvE then of course you're going to feel like your damage is below that of other classes. It's the staple of the spec. Are there times when using Master Strike is on the silly side? Of course, but when you can use it, you should use it. It really is that good right now.

 

I do agree that Vigilance survivability is massively underwhelming, however, especially when compared with other melee DPS classes.

 

Okay, I hate to break this to you, but if you stick your head out of PvP long enough to get a clue, you'd realize how little you know what you are talking about.

 

1. Master Strike can be interupted and often is, by nonbosses. There are quite a few enemies in Black Hole on Corellia that can interrupt master strike.

2. There are quite a few enemies that you have to face in PvE that using master strike every chance you get is extremely stupid because you often have to interrupt your own attack. That's the problem with a channelled skill that doesn't keep an opponent from reacting...

3. Master Strike damage is lessened by a target's shields and armor.

4. Master Strike does not set up for using other attacks

5. When you force leap there is a nice little skill that makes your first Blade Storm be able to be triggered for free, however you have a limited time duration. Master Strike seriously eats into that time window in case you hadn't noticed.

 

That is five reasons off the top of my head as to why I don't spam Master Strike every chance I get, I didn't say that I never use Master Strike, I'm saying that Master Strike isn't a godly skill like you are falsely advertising.

 

Now into my rotation:

 

Step 1 (Most of the time but not always): Saber Throw (Sometimes I will skip this step if I feel I need this skill in reserve to start attacking enemies going for my healer companion, or if I know the target has a gap closer that would trigger to prevent me from using force leap and usually follows through with a stun skill).

 

Step 2: Force leap, it generates 3 focus closes the gap with the target and provides me the ability for my first blade storm to be free.

 

Step 3: Sundering Strike, it generates 3 focus due to points in the skill tree and 2 armor debuff. This gives me 6 focus to work with total and sets up for what comes next.

 

Step 4: Plasma Brand, it has the largest DoT attack out of all the Vigilence Skills, it activates the critical bonus for blade storm and dispatch. An added bonus is it ignores most damage reductions such as shields and armor. While Overhead strike is a cool skill, it does not share this feature with Plasma Brand. The window for using blade storm for free is still open at this point.

 

Step 5: Blade Storm, it is a free attack, it has the critical boost active as well, so it has its' destructive potential at its' max. If the target has been clobbered at this point I will launch the attack at the next target. Since it is a force attack, it does bypass some damage reductions and it is not affected by knockbacks (like master strike) or interrupts. I know because I've been knocked back while triggering this skill and the blow still lands.

 

Step 6: Can be Sundering strike or Master strike, I tend to be more loose about what I use at this point, because there are some times when the knockback has been triggered and my defense is enough that the knockback fails or it has been interrupted. When I use sundering strike it is to set up for overhead strike or dispatch if the +critical skill is still active and I can actually use it.

 

So to be quite blunt, the attitude that there is only one right way to play as a Vigilence Guardian by some people here is rather obnoxious in my opinion. You have your style of playing as a Vigilence Guardian, fine, I've got my way of playing as a Vigilence Guardian that's just as legitimate as your way is. You've given one good reason for using master strike a lot, fine I respect that in a PvP environment that you play in; however, I've given you 5 good reasons why I use other attacks over master strike against the targets I usually face in a PvE environment.

Edited June 12, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Darkshadz]

Now into my rotation:

 

Step 1 (Most of the time but not always): Saber Throw (Sometimes I will skip this step if I feel I need this skill in reserve to start attacking enemies going for my healer companion, or if I know the target has a gap closer that would trigger to prevent me from using force leap and usually follows through with a stun skill).

 

Step 2: Force leap, it generates 3 focus closes the gap with the target and provides me the ability for my first blade storm to be free.

 

Step 3: Sundering Strike, it generates 3 focus due to points in the skill tree and 2 armor debuff. This gives me 6 focus to work with total and sets up for what comes next.

 

Step 4: Plasma Brand, it has the largest DoT attack out of all the Vigilence Skills, it activates the critical bonus for blade storm and dispatch. An added bonus is it ignores most damage reductions such as shields and armor. While Overhead strike is a cool skill, it does not share this feature with Plasma Brand. The window for using blade storm for free is still open at this point.

 

Step 5: Blade Storm, it is a free attack, it has the critical boost active as well, so it has its' destructive potential at its' max. If the target has been clobbered at this point I will launch the attack at the next target. Since it is a force attack, it does bypass some damage reductions and it is not affected by knockbacks (like master strike) or interrupts. I know because I've been knocked back while triggering this skill and the blow still lands.

 

Step 6: Can be Sundering strike or Master strike, I tend to be more loose about what I use at this point, because there are some times when the knockback has been triggered and my defense is enough that the knockback fails or it has been interrupted. When I use sundering strike it is to set up for overhead strike or dispatch if the +critical skill is still active and I can actually use it.

 

So to be quite blunt, the attitude that there is only one right way to play as a Vigilence Guardian by some people here is rather obnoxious in my opinion. You have your style of playing as a Vigilence Guardian, fine, I've got my way of playing as a Vigilence Guardian that's just as legitimate as your way is. You've given one good reason for using master strike a lot, fine I respect that in a PvP environment that you play in; however, I've given you 5 good reasons why I use other attacks over master strike against the targets I usually face in a PvE environment.

 

I have a problem with step 4. If plasma brand procs zen strike (and it does even if master strike is off cooldown), then it's a dps loss. If you know for example that an enemy will use a hard-hitting ability right after you use sundering strike, it's best to use your interrupt and then use master strike. So IMO master strike should be used at step 4 most of the time. If you are not using master strike as often as possible, then you are not playing your vigilance guardian effectively.

[Dracosz]

There is math here, not just opinions.

 

Where's the math? I don't see a single equation or number crunch here at ALL.

 

 

The highest DPS I've seen from any Guardian was those with top notch gear and skill at the class in the Focus tree, in a PvP environment, spamming Force Sweep crits on everyone around. 1. This write up is regarding Vigilance spec, and 2. My main concern is the viability of bringing a Jedi Guardian for PvE (not PvP) in a DPS role. In solo content, or easy content, we do just fine. If you are trying to beat the enrage timer for Explosive Conflict, hard mode, on Toth and Zorn... while some Vigilance Guardians can squeak by, it is still a crutch to the group when you could instead have brought other classes to fill that DPS slot, who would certainly be able to contribute far more DPS, and raise your groups chances of success notably.

 

Lolhearsay...

 

My guild has repeatedly cleared EC HM on 8 and 16m, we have no trouble at all with enrage timers. I am also second on our meters next to our marauder (both of us are in equal levels of gear).

 

On average a Vigilance Guardian may see 150k to 250k damage in a warzone, where an equally well developed Sage will average 450k to 550k. Parsing with MOX I personally have reached over 1300 DPS in a 5 min test on the dummies, which is very good for a Vigilance Guardian, but way less than other classes.

 

What? You're either in awful gear or not wearing enough expertise. In any case, damage alone is no indication of performance in a warzone. Juggernauts have the BEST map mobility of any class in the game at the moment and when you take into account how easily accesible guard is for a DPS juggernaut the point becomes moot. As far as dummy parses go, they are HORRIBLE indicators of a player's actual dps in a fight as you won't have buffs going around, spike damage at 30% (esepecially as veneance) or any indication of fight movement.

 

* To all the people that will disagree, and want to assert that Vigilance Guardians can do as much DPS as any other class... Pleas[/right]e back up your words with actual numbers. Go spend 5 min hitting the training dummy at least, and using MOX, and post your DPS result.

 

Nobody needs to prove anything to anyone, MOX results are moot and mean nothing when you take all the variables into account.

 

Do yourself a favor and OPTIMIZE your gear to the max (Meaning you're accuracy capped, have high surge/crit and a lot of power). Then make a post on how relative scaling is bad (which it's not, for the record) and make a post that mathematically demonstrates the scaling issue. As it stands, you've offered nothing but opinion and hearsay, not fact.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dracosz

[Dracosz]

1. Master Strike can be interupted and often is, by nonbosses. There are quite a few enemies in Black Hole on Corellia that can interrupt master strike.

2. There are quite a few enemies that you have to face in PvE that using master strike every chance you get is extremely stupid because you often have to interrupt your own attack. That's the problem with a channelled skill that doesn't keep an opponent from reacting...

3. Master Strike damage is lessened by a target's shields and armor.

4. Master Strike does not set up for using other attacks

5. When you force leap there is a nice little skill that makes your first Blade Storm be able to be triggered for free, however you have a limited time duration. Master Strike seriously eats into that time window in case you hadn't noticed.

 

Master Strike is the most efficient and, quite frankly, the hardest hitting move we have in our arsenal. With Rampage procs, it sustains our rage generation while setting our next impale-> scream rotation. When a target hits 30%, you prioritize vicious throw oriented rotations over it. But to make it fair for you, I'll break down your arguments.

 

1. Master Strike can be interupted and often is, by nonbosses. There are quite a few enemies in Black Hole on Corellia that can interrupt master strike.

That's irrelevant, entirely. You can honestly kill half the mobs in Black Hole simply by autoattacking. In any case, if master strike is actually being interrupted, then put in a ticket because it shouldn't be. If you're being knocked back during a master strike, that's entirely different and unavoidable. That being said, the first two ticks of master strike more than make up for any disruption in damage flow.

 

2. There are quite a few enemies that you have to face in PvE that using master strike every chance you get is extremely stupid because you often have to interrupt your own attack. That's the problem with a channelled skill that doesn't keep an opponent from reacting...

 

You have ONE channeled skill. Ravage does not interrupt anything. If you're referring to have to stop mid-strike, that's still not a big issue since the first two ticks happen nearly instantly.

 

Master Strike damage is lessened by a target's shield and armor.

 

MY ASSAULT AND SUNDERING ASSAULT ARE REDUCED BY ARMOR TOO! OH, GUESS I'LL JUST SIT HERE AND DO NOTHING.

 

*ahem*

 

Except for shatter, nothing in our arsenal ISN'T reduced by armor. So are you trying to tell me that you're trying to only use shatter to attack your opponent? Oh wait, you can't because you don't have a sunder effect up!

 

I guess you'll just have to bleed on your enemies until they leave of boredom.

 

4. Master Strike does not set up for using other attacks.

 

Except that it does. You get 2 rage from it off of rampage procs and while you're in a ravage you are dealing a TON of damage during the wait for sunder to go off the GCD.

 

5. When you force leap there is a nice little skill that makes your first Blade Storm be able to be triggered for free, however you have a limited time duration. Master Strike seriously eats into that time window in case you hadn't noticed.

 

Bladestorm has a long duration and you can easily get off a force scream before you ravage (in fact, your should try to do so so there are dots rolling during the ravage).

 

So to be quite blunt, the attitude that there is only one right way to play as a Vigilence Guardian by some people here is rather obnoxious in my opinion. You have your style of playing as a Vigilence Guardian, fine, I've got my way of playing as a Vigilence Guardian that's just as legitimate as your way is. You've given one good reason for using master strike a lot, fine I respect that in a PvP environment that you play in; however, I've given you 5 good reasons why I use other attacks over master strike against the targets I usually face in a PvE environment.

 

Except that you're making a fundamental mistake that people in this thread are trying to correct. Master strike is HUGELY important for you and to blatantly ignore it and the constructive feedback people are providing is asinine and ultimately a detriment to yourself. All I've really gotten about reading your post is that you really don't like ravage and don't want to use it because it looks dumb and that you think other juggernauts that use it in PvE are dumb. Newsflash, not the case whatsoever.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dracosz

[goatfoam]

Okay, I hate to break this to you, but if you stick your head out of PvP long enough to get a clue, you'd realize how little you know what you are talking about.

 

I was talking about PvE. In PvP I use a completely different rotation, in fact I use a full priority system in PvP. Unfortunately for you, I happen to know exactly what I'm talking about here because I've cleared all of the PvE content as a Vigilance Guardian, using Master Strike, and I think our DPS is very strong. You don't use Master Strike and think our DPS is weak. That's your problem - your DPS is weak because you don't use it. Mine is strong because I do.

 

Before we get into it, take another look at this log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/d6dc9b15-2e10-4b47-af3d-dd84e3548b0b/overview#d=0,f=103,b=1

 

I'm Jubei in the log there, a Vigilance Guardian, doing 2k DPS. And I'm nothing special - I'm in a casual raiding guild, I have 3 pieces of Campaign gear, and I'm doing 2k DPS on Karagga. With Master Strike. The proof is right in front of you.

 

1. Master Strike can be interupted and often is, by nonbosses. There are quite a few enemies in Black Hole on Corellia that can interrupt master strike.

 

So what? You'll still get at least one hit, probably two, for more combined damage than a critted Bladestorm -- for ZERO Focus.

 

2. There are quite a few enemies that you have to face in PvE that using master strike every chance you get is extremely stupid because you often have to interrupt your own attack. That's the problem with a channelled skill that doesn't keep an opponent from reacting...

 

Again, so what? It still hits harder in less than a second than any of your instant abilities do for the focus cost. It's not the end of the world if Master Strike gets interrupted, you seem awfully afraid of that happening. Here's a secret - when you know you're going to get clipped Master Strikes, you shouldn't be all surprised when it happens and crap your pants, you should know what button is next in the rotation and push it.

 

3. Master Strike damage is lessened by a target's shields and armor.

 

So is Dispatch, do you not use that?

 

4. Master Strike does not set up for using other attacks

 

It really doesn't need to.

 

5. When you force leap there is a nice little skill that makes your first Blade Storm be able to be triggered for free, however you have a limited time duration. Master Strike seriously eats into that time window in case you hadn't noticed.

 

I know, I use it for PvP. That's right - Momentum is purely a PvP talent for me now, it has absolutely no place in my setup for PvE because I never find myself in a situation where I can't afford Bladestorm (which is a filler ability for me). If you want to use it knock yourself, I just don't need it and my points are better spent elsewhere.

 

But here's where you look a fool, because your argument is that using Master Strike - a ZERO COST ability that can easily do 10k damage over 3 seconds - is messing with your ability to use Bladestorm - a ZERO COST ability that does 4k tops? No wonder your DPS seems weak, you obviously haven't done the math.

 

That is five reasons off the top of my head as to why I don't spam Master Strike every chance I get, I didn't say that I never use Master Strike, I'm saying that Master Strike isn't a godly skill like you are falsely advertising.

 

Of course it is. Check the logs.

 

Now into my rotation:

 

Step 1 (Most of the time but not always): Saber Throw (Sometimes I will skip this step if I feel I need this skill in reserve to start attacking enemies going for my healer companion, or if I know the target has a gap closer that would trigger to prevent me from using force leap and usually follows through with a stun skill).

 

Step 2: Force leap, it generates 3 focus closes the gap with the target and provides me the ability for my first blade storm to be free.

 

Step 3: Sundering Strike, it generates 3 focus due to points in the skill tree and 2 armor debuff. This gives me 6 focus to work with total and sets up for what comes next.

 

Step 4: Plasma Brand, it has the largest DoT attack out of all the Vigilence Skills, it activates the critical bonus for blade storm and dispatch. An added bonus is it ignores most damage reductions such as shields and armor. While Overhead strike is a cool skill, it does not share this feature with Plasma Brand. The window for using blade storm for free is still open at this point.

 

Step 5: Blade Storm, it is a free attack, it has the critical boost active as well, so it has its' destructive potential at its' max. If the target has been clobbered at this point I will launch the attack at the next target. Since it is a force attack, it does bypass some damage reductions and it is not affected by knockbacks (like master strike) or interrupts. I know because I've been knocked back while triggering this skill and the blow still lands.

 

Step 6: Can be Sundering strike or Master strike, I tend to be more loose about what I use at this point, because there are some times when the knockback has been triggered and my defense is enough that the knockback fails or it has been interrupted. When I use sundering strike it is to set up for overhead strike or dispatch if the +critical skill is still active and I can actually use it.

 

So to be quite blunt, the attitude that there is only one right way to play as a Vigilence Guardian by some people here is rather obnoxious in my opinion. You have your style of playing as a Vigilence Guardian, fine, I've got my way of playing as a Vigilence Guardian that's just as legitimate as your way is. You've given one good reason for using master strike a lot, fine I respect that in a PvP environment that you play in; however, I've given you 5 good reasons why I use other attacks over master strike against the targets I usually face in a PvE environment.

 

Your PvE rotation is very similar to my PvP rotation (though I use Master Strike there too, with the 4pc PvP set bonus and Gather Strength Master Strike is ridiculously good).

 

Post logs of your rotation on an operations boss, lets compare. That's the best way to do it. You said yourself a while back that you thought the OP's approach with logs and such was the "best way" to do this, right? Well bring the logs on. If your DPS is higher then I'm happy to admit Master Strike is third rate.

Edited June 12, 2012 by goatfoam

[arkitip]

The problem is that GarfieldJL doesn't do Ops. He's admittedly only done EV (and the way he worded it he might have only done EV once). He also doesn't PVP. I don't know if his PVE experience is HM FPs, or if it's basically just doing dailies.

 

What I do know is that he's on the side of Vigilance Guardians having low DPS, but whenever a more experienced Guardian (both PVE and PVP) gives him a suggestion to increase DPS he argues about why he doesn't want to/won't do that.

 

It's fine to have your play style. Mix tank and DPS gear all you want. Don't keep Master Strike on CD. You pay your sub it's your choice. It DOES affect your DPS though, and there ARE people doing it better.

[GarfieldJL]

I have a problem with step 4. If plasma brand procs zen strike (and it does even if master strike is off cooldown), then it's a dps loss. If you know for example that an enemy will use a hard-hitting ability right after you use sundering strike, it's best to use your interrupt and then use master strike. So IMO master strike should be used at step 4 most of the time. If you are not using master strike as often as possible, then you are not playing your vigilance guardian effectively.

 

I don't have too many points in Zen Strike, and even if I did, plasma brand if I remember correctly since I don't have the game open currently is not the only skill that triggers that immediate cooldown.

 

Over half of the Plasma Brand Damage occurs while the DoT is active, while Blade Storm and Overhead Strike do their damage mostly in the first hit.

 

The way my skill tree is currently set up, I have a small window to using blade storm for free, and since I use shien form, that means I'm getting one focus for using blade storm. That means I have to either use overhead strike or plasma brand to trigger the +critical skill.

 

Master Strike is an incredibly stupid skill to use in the Black Hole Heroic for instance, because you are facing a lot of targets that have knockbacks (too many for 3 people to CC), I don't think they can be interrupted either (like force wave for sage can't be interrupted since it is not a channelled skill). So that means you can get hit with 2 to 3 knockbacks in rapid succession. That is why I use attacks that are not channeled for the most part, because they can't be interrupted.

 

Furthermore, in the off chance I kill the target before I get to unleashing blade storm, then I will use blade storm on my next target, or if I am close enough to the next target and have used blade storm, then I can unleash master strike, overhead strike, or another sundering strike.

 

 

Main reason I use sundering strike is to enable plasma brand to be used, not simply the armor debuff. You need to have an armor debuff active from either sundering strike or sundering throw to use plasma brand. I lead off with sundering strike because it gives me another 3 focus to work with. If I use throw + leap + sundering strike (yes I have sundering throw since they added it to vigilence this is a holdover from before it got moved from focus to vigilence), I have 9 focus to work with, that means I easily have enough focus to dish out plasma brand and the blade storm and then immediately follow with dispatch if I so choose.

 

Dispatch can't be interrupted, because it isn't a channeled skill, if you trigger the skill before the knockback or during the knockback it hits.

 

This yapping about using master strike all the time is just plain stupid, you do not have the level of control with master strike that you often need in a fight. I don't particularly care to have to interrupt my own attacks to stop a high powered attack from a target. I don't have that situation when I'm using my rotation that usually doesn't resort to master strike, because those skills are instant hits and I don't have to channel anything.

 

The problem is that GarfieldJL doesn't do Ops. He's admittedly only done EV (and the way he worded it he might have only done EV once). He also doesn't PVP. I don't know if his PVE experience is HM FPs, or if it's basically just doing dailies.

 

What I do know is that he's on the side of Vigilance Guardians having low DPS, but whenever a more experienced Guardian (both PVE and PVP) gives him a suggestion to increase DPS he argues about why he doesn't want to/won't do that.

 

It's fine to have your play style. Mix tank and DPS gear all you want. Don't keep Master Strike on CD. You pay your sub it's your choice. It DOES affect your DPS though, and there ARE people doing it better.

 

I've done EV, more than once thank you kindly, however it is the only OP I have done, and it is also part of the reason why I have so much defense stat despite the fact I'm a DPS, cause I've ended up having to play the roll of offtank or tank, when the 2nd tank happens to leave the mission and leaving people in a bind.

 

I have also done Hardmode Flashpoints, which are part of the reason why I don't care to use master strike that often, cause quite frankly I would have been killed if I had used master strike repeatedly...

 

I've said I don't have it in my main rotation, I didn't say that I don't use master strike. There are times I will use master strike. I've said it is a skill that isn't as good as you people are advertising, I never said it was a worthless skill like opportune strike usually is.

 

There are times using master strike is a good idea, and there are times when using master strike is incredibly stupid...

 

The way my skill tree is set up there is a very small window to set up for a free blade storm which actually gives me focus because I use shien. Master Strike eats up too much time in my opinion to use that window effectively. When I think I can get away with using master strike cause the target is focused on someone else at the time, I use master strike. However Master strike doesn't enter the picture for me until after I've gotten off that crit blade storm.

Edited June 12, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[goatfoam]

I have also done Hardmode Flashpoints, which are part of the reason why I don't care to use master strike that often, cause quite frankly I would have been killed if I had used master strike repeatedly...

 

No you wouldn't. I run HM Flashpoints all the time and never "die because I use Master Strike repeatedly", that's total nonsense. - a lot of the time I tank HMs (and I've tanked LI HM twice this way) without speccing out of Vigilance (though I will wear my tanking gear and enter Soresu) and I spam Master Strike then too - because I'm Focus starved in Soresu and Master Strike doesn't care about that.

 

I've said I don't have it in my main rotation, I didn't say that I don't use master strike. There are times I will use master strike. I've said it is a skill that isn't as good as you people are advertising, I never said it was a worthless skill like opportune strike usually is.

 

Arkitip is absolutely right - it doesn't matter what you say about Master Strike, that isn't what the thread is about and nobody cares if you use it in the Black Hole or not. What matters here is that you say Vigilance DPS is weak, when we prove to you over and over that it isn't when we use Master Strike on cooldown. What you mean to say is that your build and rotation are weak DPS, but that's ultimately down to you.

Edited June 12, 2012 by goatfoam

[Dracosz]

I've done EV, more than once thank you kindly, however it is the only OP I have done, and it is also part of the reason why I have so much defense stat despite the fact I'm a DPS, cause I've ended up having to play the roll of offtank or tank, when the 2nd tank happens to leave the mission and leaving people in a bind.

 

I'm done here. You're trying to contend that fully geared players won't stack up and claimed to be one (or have innate knowledge of players with gear), showed up in defense gear, THEN made a thread whining about how DPS guardians were awful.

 

Fail.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Dracosz

[HTPRO]

Just a bit of common sense here - a spec using AoE skill as its main attack will always deal more damage than a spec using single target attacks.

 

Focus certainly deals more TOTAL damage in a WZ.

Vigilance certainly has more DPS.

[Darkshadz]

I don't have too many points in Zen Strike, and even if I did, plasma brand if I remember correctly since I don't have the game open currently is not the only skill that triggers that immediate cooldown.

 

WHAT?! Are you kidding me? There is absolutely no reason not to have 3 points in zen strike for a full vigilance guardian. NONE. Master strike can only be reset once every 9 seconds if you have 3 points in it. So if you use plasma brand and zen strike procs, you can't reset it again by using overhead slash right after. It is a clear proof that the problem is you, not the spec.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Darkshadz

[GarfieldJL]

No you wouldn't. I run HM Flashpoints all the time and never "die because I use Master Strike repeatedly", that's total nonsense. - a lot of the time I tank HMs (and I've tanked LI HM twice this way) without speccing out of Vigilance (though I will wear my tanking gear and enter Soresu) and I spam Master Strike then too - because I'm Focus starved in Soresu and Master Strike doesn't care about that.

 

Yeah, you're filthy rich woopiee. Thing is I'm able to offtank when there is a good healer without switching gear, you worked to get multiple sets of gear I work with one set only.

 

Believe me, I'm not bragging, finding that fine line to get it to work was pretty much a total accident cause I liked a particular look with one probably it was complete tank gear. Struggled with that while I was busy collecting new modifications and then suddenly it was like hey I'm actually dishing out decent damage without getting mauled all the time. It is a real balancing act, I've found there is a very low tolerance when it comes to upgrades or I end up either having damage go through the floor and get slaughtered because I can't damage things quickly enough, or my ability to take hits goes through the floor. Anyways I can't wait for the level cap to be raised, cause I'm planning on adding points to some other skills. I've got either getting more into the focus tree or getting more into Defense as my options.

 

Arkitip is absolutely right - it doesn't matter what you say about Master Strike, that isn't what the thread is about and nobody cares if you use it in the Black Hole or not. What matters here is that you say Vigilance DPS is weak, when we prove to you over and over that it isn't when we use Master Strike on cooldown. What you mean to say is that your build and rotation are weak DPS, but that's ultimately down to you.

 

You guys aren't listening to what I'm saying, I never said that I don't use master strike, all I said is that I don't spam it. Your skill tree is set up a little differently than what mine is, I'm set up to get off my biggest DoT attack skill as quickly as possible and then pile drive a target with a crit blade storm as quickly as possible. I try to get off a plasma brand as quickly as possible and use plasma brand before blade storm because it maximizes the time duration that Plasma Brand's DoT is active.

 

DoT attacks are only really effective when you get them going at the beginning of a fight, starting to use them at the end of one is completely pointless, also the DoTs can do critical hits so that makes them even more effective. Better still the DoTs are not a channeled attack, so you are lobbing other attacks at the target on top of the DoTs.

 

I way to look at plasma brand and its DoT is that you have the front end damage, and then consider the DoT damage to be additional damage you are doing ON TOP OF THE DAMAGE YOU ARE DOING WITH YOUR OTHER ATTACKS.

 

You're telling me that I'm not using Master Strike to it's maximum potential, well right back at you, because you aren't using Plasma Brand to it's maximum potential either. Dishing out at anywhere from 250-700+ Damage per second (and yeah it kinda seems to scale with you strength, power, and crit modifiers) for 12 seconds that completely ignores most shields and armor, added to the damage you are doing with other attacks, is hardly something to laugh at. I've never said vigilence is unplayable, my beef with the class is that going pure dps turns you into a glass canon that makes a DPS Sentinel Version of a Glass Canon look like a Tank (not much of an exaggeration either).

 

You decided to go use master strike every chance you get to get what you feel is the maximum potential you can get from Master Strike, fine, you have your way of playing a Vigilence Guardian, and it works for you. I went the route of using Plasma Brand to what I feel is its maximum potential (I started this route back when we had the self cancelling skills bug because Plasma brand was the only major attack for me that didn't arbitrarily cancel when triggered), I found it works very well from a PvE standpoint.

 

So quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if I was geared with the same gear settup as you, if I would be able to perform around the same damage as you and likely be as effective as you in a PvE situation. Simply put we have a different play style that are both equally valid. Maybe you can maximize the punching effect of master strike and it works for you, that's your style. I maximize Plasma Brand and try to use it to its maximum effectiveness, that's my playing style and it works for me.

 

I don't know what the play style of the original poster is, however I don't think he is a rank amateur either. I have other skills that weren't on my typical rotation that are good damage dealers, but I don't use them in my standard rotation so I don't forget and use them in a situation where an AoE isn't advisable, I still use them, but I don't want to be in the habit of accidentally cancelling a CC and getting a group killed.

 

His statements about us doing less damage probably isn't being said lightly, the PvP scores are potentially skewed in any event because it is common for us to use our biggest area attack and if there were 5 enemies we're going to have that all added to the total damage output.

 

I think the Vigilence Tree needs some work, however I think it needs work in the area of survival and attaching that to the shien form so that if the focus tree does more damage than a Vigilence guardian, that's okay cause we are harder to kill than a Focus Guardian, but by the same token we aren't exactly a tank.

 

I kinda think our roll should be more of a DPS that can take a lot of punishment in the fight.

 

I would honestly like to see us have our Defense Stat being able to be used as a form of offense when we are targetted by ranged opponents, which would fit the entire reason for the Shien form's creation in the first place.

 

To get back to being serious, I do think our issue in the Vigilence tree is survivability, and I think that should be tied to the Shien stance so that Bioware doesn't have a panic attack that Vigilence Hybrids are tanking better than the tank tree. Cause Shien doesn't trigger all the damage reductions a tank would need.

[ACiDxCHRiST]

/thread

 

I am done here. You are so *********** stupid, my head hurts from trying to understand it. Roll a *********** Sentinel/Marauder or a Sage/Sorcerer and shut the **** up. YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE HELPED. That much is obvious.

[goatfoam]

You guys aren't listening to what I'm saying, I never said that I don't use master strike, all I said is that I don't spam it. Your skill tree is set up a little differently than what mine is, I'm set up to get off my biggest DoT attack skill as quickly as possible and then pile drive a target with a crit blade storm as quickly as possible. I try to get off a plasma brand as quickly as possible and use plasma brand before blade storm because it maximizes the time duration that Plasma Brand's DoT is active.

 

No, the problem isn't that people aren't listening, the problem is the fact that you are talking about killing silvers and golds while the rest of us are talking about killing champions and bosses. You're the only person in this thread who cares about anything outside of a raid - the rest of us (and I'm not saying this to be a jerk) take that stuff for granted. It's easy, so easy that it doesn't even warrant discussion.

 

I can't believe you're trying to educate me about Plasma Brand either - I whole heartedly advocate Master Strike, it's absolutely a bread and butter ability but that doesn't mean I don't use Plasma Brand. Look at my rotation (posted above) - Plasma Brand is the second GCD in the second priority rotation, and the only reason it's not first is because I want a Zen Strike proc. Look at my log, also posted above. Plasma Brand, including the DoT (the highest "burning (physical)" entry) account for between 15 and 25% of my total damage depending on the specific fight (though you don't know how to read DPS meters if you think it's doing 700 DPS alone). On every single fight I have a 100% Plasma Brand DoT uptime, so it's clearly important to me.

 

What isn't important is Bladestorm. It's filler, and it's the reason your damage is garbage.

 

So quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if I was geared with the same gear settup as you, if I would be able to perform around the same damage as you and likely be as effective as you in a PvE situation. Simply put we have a different play style that are both equally valid. Maybe you can maximize the punching effect of master strike and it works for you, that's your style. I maximize Plasma Brand and try to use it to its maximum effectiveness, that's my playing style and it works for me.

 

First of all, I (and all half decent Vigilance Guardians) maximise both. Again, the issue isn't Plasma Brand vs Master Strike, they're two of our primary abilities (along with Sunder and Overhead Slash). The issue is not using both on CD. You only use one. Secondly, no, your damage won't be anywhere near mine. Do you honestly believe that those of us saying Master Strike on cooldown is the best way to get results in 1.2 just woke up on patch day and decided that? This has been tested over and over and over again, logged, theory crafted, worked out. It's all mathematics and that's all it is, and the maths show Master Strike being on cooldown as maximum efficiency and highest DPS in PvE against a single target.

 

I think the Vigilence Tree needs some work, however I think it needs work in the area of survival and attaching that to the shien form so that if the focus tree does more damage than a Vigilence guardian, that's okay cause we are harder to kill than a Focus Guardian, but by the same token we aren't exactly a tank.

 

And nor should we be. You run a hybrid spec and build, and that's okay, but that's why your damage is garbage. But when we talk DPS, we're talking purely DPS. And don't be fooled by the way, I'm flat out DPS and there's been dozens of times the tank's died in an operation and I've taunted and held the boss until they got rezzed. You don't need constant survivability to do that, Saber Ward and Focused Defense are more than enough to keep me alive for the duration of the rezz.

 

It's pretty clear at this point that your endgame consists mostly of doing the dailies so I'm going to bow out of the thread for now because you just don't seem to grasp many of the concepts being put to you but you should really think about being more flexible - MMOs change all the time and what works one patch may completely change a patch later. Get too stuck in your ways and you're just not going to be able to keep up.

 

Either way, best of luck.

Edited June 13, 2012 by goatfoam

[GarfieldJL]

/thread

 

I am done here. You are so *********** stupid, my head hurts from trying to understand it. Roll a *********** Sentinel/Marauder or a Sage/Sorcerer and shut the **** up. YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE HELPED. That much is obvious.

 

Actually, I have a DPS Sage, a Tank Assassin, and a Healer Scoundrel. The Tank Assassin I'm playing almost as a dps using its tank Stance and throwing gear on it at random, without really paying attention as to whether or not it is tank gear or DPS gear, and it is like easy mode compared to Guardian.

 

Target has a higher level than me, assuming it's only a 1 to 2 level difference, no problem... While I can't solo Heroics yet since I'm not seriously playing that class, only doing so out of curiousity, I know of some people that have soloed heroics successfully with that class and with shadows.

 

I've managed to get out of situations that would clobber a DPS Guardian, while playing my dps sage simply by suddenly resorting to healing my tank companion. The char isn't even set up to be a serious healer, ever skill point is in the telekinetic tree. The difficulty has only finally gone up on Balmorra, and that has more to do with critters in a certain area having at least a 2 level advantage, and I finally need to upgrade the gear. For most of the time playing sage, my gear has been substandard and that hasn't mattered one bit.

 

So I'm going to throw your slam back in your face, how about you roll some other classes instead of trying to lecture someone that actually knows what they are talking about!

 

@ goatfoam

 

You aren't maximizing Plasma Brand's potential, because the damage from plasma brand is back end. Plasma brand also activates the +60% critical for Blade Storm. In order to maximize Plasma brand, you want to actually use that attack at the absolute earliest opportunity that you can.

 

If I really wanted to cut loose and throw in my other attacks I would be throwing Force Sweep into my rotation as well, since it is a focus generator for me, because I use Shien. I just don't use it at every available opportunity so I don't get into a bad habit.

 

Master Strike is a channel skill, that means you are doing damage with that skill for a set duration and not using any other skill.

 

When I use plasma brand, I do a front end attack and have a DoT going that is independent of my other attacks. I can follow with a blade storm for the crit and the focus boost, then follow with a Master strike while I have two DoTs going.

 

Seriously, you aren't using plasma brand to it's maximum potential, you are just seeing the big numbers from master strike, while failing to realize that I've probably used 2 to 3 different attacks in the same time frame. The damage output the two of us dish out, is probably pretty even in a PvE situation.

Edited June 13, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Dracosz]

 

You're telling me that I'm not using Master Strike to it's maximum potential, well right back at you, because you aren't using Plasma Brand to it's maximum potential either. Dishing out at anywhere from 250-700+ Damage per second (and yeah it kinda seems to scale with you strength, power, and crit modifiers) for 12 seconds that completely ignores most shields and armor, added to the damage you are doing with other attacks, is hardly something to laugh at. I've never said vigilence is unplayable, my beef with the class is that going pure dps turns you into a glass canon that makes a DPS Sentinel Version of a Glass Canon look like a Tank (not much of an exaggeration either).

 

 

 

What the actual ****.

[skotish]

Garfield wins as he made all you guys lose your cool which is not cool lol

[Darkshadz]

Garfield wins as he made all you guys lose your cool which is not cool lol

 

When you tell someone how to be good with a class and that person tells you "screw that I wanna do what I want (as in being terrible)!!!!!!", you lose your cool. I'm done with this guy too, there's no way to discuss with him anymore.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Darkshadz

[Underpowered]

It's okay guys, the rest of us competent Vigilance Guardians can continue to perform exactly on target in DPS while Garfield continues to be mediocre by his own choice. It's already been proven by posted combat logs here that at least one person out there has a superior rotation which provides significantly stronger DPS than his own, which Garfield refuses to even try.

 

This situation is akin to everyone in the world owning a BMW and being able to accelerate from 0-60 in 6 seconds, except for one person who can only do it in 9 seconds because he doesnt know how to shift gears. Then this one dude claims BMWs are slow and refuses to learn stick shift.

 

This thread is over. Everyone move on, please.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Underpowered

[GarfieldJL]

When you tell someone how to be good with a class and that person tells you "screw that I wanna do what I want (as in being terrible)!!!!!!", you lose your cool. I'm done with this guy too, there's no way to discuss with him anymore.

 

Seriously, if you were half as good at playing as a Guardian that you say you are, you'd know that there is more than one way to play a Guardian DPS effectively within the Vigilence skill tree.

 

The fact you can't seem to figure it out and think that the only way to play Guardian is to use master strike as often as possible leads me to suspect that you aren't as good as you claim you are.

 

Additionally, whenever I bring up the fact I'm a DPS Guardian in Hardmode Flashpoints, if the people in the group don't know me, they will tend to refuse to allow me to join, quite simply because I'm DPS (only way I've gotten into some hardmodes at times is the fact I can off tank). Now I know some of it is that our class has a reputation due to idiots running and jumping into situations that they seriously can't handle. However, a lot of it has to do with the fact DPS Guardians either don't do the damage and/or do not have the Survivability for the Hard Mode Flashpoints.

 

If our class was really as OPed as you claim, people would be looking to have DPS Guardians in their groups instead of Shadows, DPS Scoundrels, etc. So seriously stop with this song and dance of our class being overpowered, we both know that claim is laughable.

 

1. Other classes require a lot less attention to keeping gear the best it can be.

2. Other classes require a lot less attention to the environment than Guardians (believe it or not the ability to heal as a DPS Sage can often tip the scales from a defeat over to a victory).

3. Other classes can often take on enemies that are above their level (sometimes even champions and elites), largely without using interrupts. I've done it with a DPS Sage, it isn't easy but it can be done.

4. Other classes generally don't have to wait as long for cooldowns for their main power attacks in the middle of a fight (not talking about that mortar or grenade launcher that a particular class of trooper has).

 

The fact that our class requires so much more attention, is an indication that we aren't exactly at the same level as the other classes. I'm not just talking learning curve (which in and of itself doesn't mean much), I'm talking the need for the best possible gear as quickly as one can get it. I don't think Sentinels have the same issue in this area that we do, I could be wrong since I don't have a Sentinel char yet, I haven't seriously looked at the Sentinel's skill trees.

 

Heck, I'm not paying much attention to keeping gear up to date for DPS Sage and a Tank Assassin and I'm still plowing through things. As long as the gear is no more than 6 levels beneath what it could be for my current level, it works just fine. You don't get that with a DPS Guardian, I doubt you get that with a Tank Guardian either.

 

So quite frankly, your argument that I'm somehow incompetitent is rather laughable.

[Dracosz]

 

Additionally, whenever I bring up the fact I'm a DPS Guardian in Hardmode Flashpoints, if the people in the group don't know me, they will tend to refuse to allow me to join, quite simply because I'm DPS (only way I've gotten into some hardmodes at times is the fact I can off tank). Now I know some of it is that our class has a reputation due to idiots running and jumping into situations that they seriously can't handle. However, a lot of it has to do with the fact DPS Guardians either don't do the damage and/or do not have the Survivability for the Hard Mode Flashpoints.

 

 

Now I know some of it is that our class has a reputation due to idiots running and jumping into situations that they seriously can't handle.

 

idiots running and jumping into situations that they seriously can't handle.

 

idiots

 

/thread

[Underpowered]

The fact you can't seem to figure it out and think that the only way to play Guardian is to use master strike as often as possible leads me to suspect that you aren't as good as you claim you are.

 

Stop trying to argue irrelevant points to try to mask your own incorrectness. There is only one point in your post worth considering, and it's the part I quoted above.

 

No one said using Master Strike as often as possible is the ONLY way to play a Guardian. You can press any button you want, no one's stopping you. What we are saying is that using Master Strike as often as possible is superior to YOUR current playstyle. This has been empirically demonstrated through posted combat logs which illustrate that our DPS in endgame is entirely on-target. This is an MMO - there will always be a best rotation(s) given any situation. No, you cannot just make up any rotation you want and expect it to be the best one. If your argument were to hold true, then I could claim that Vigilance DPS is very weak because I choose to use only auto attack in my rotation and I refuse to use any other skill. Which is patently absurd.

 

You claim that you have difficulty getting into groups in endgame because of supposed poor Guardian DPS on your server, however none of us have any such difficulty at all, which suggests that we're doing it right and you're doing it wrong. Your argument about Guardians requiring more effort to obtain this level of performance is also absurd and wrong. Play it smart and you'll progress at least as well as any other class. But you choose not to. Remember. Our DPS is better than yours, and our DPS is perfectly on-target. YOU are not as good as US as it specifically relates to the topic of this thread.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Underpowered

[ZirusZero]

I have to say that Vigilance is in an odd spot. I can tank decently, but not like defense since we have less health and passives that reduce damage. I can DPS, but not like a Sentinel who will easy out-DPS me. I have to say Vigilance is in that awkward down the middle ranking.