OGsam Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) I posted this in another thread, take it for what it is. The main problem with sents/maras was their ability to exploit consumables/buffs more than anyone else. 5 juyo stacks (+10% damage) > expertise adrenal (+15% damage) > Inspiration (+15% damage) > relic clicky (+ ~5% damage) > Merc slash > Master Strike > Dispatch. Literally a 3 hit kill most of the time. This causes people to QQ, fair enough, though to orchestrate this takes either a) 30 stacks of centering OR use of a 2m 30s CD to get 30 centering, 3m CD on both relic and expertise adrenal, 5m CD on Inspiration (which consumes the 30 stack of centering) Expetrise adrenals are being changed to only offer the 15% mitigation and will offer NO bonus to damage/healing. Relic clicky is being changed to offer LESS of the stat as a bonus but have a longer duration. What's the point of this rant you say? Well, BW's math is pretty messed up, all +% to damage/healing in this game is totally multiplicative, so not only can sents/maras control when that inspiration happens for an extra 15% since it's their skill, they also benefit the most from it since all these bonuses multiply with their Juyo stacks. Long story short sents/maras will feel the consumable nerf more than any other class, the question is, is it enough? My gut feeling says no, luckily it's only PTS and we'll no doubt find out in the coming days. Edited June 7, 2012 by OGsam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Is that why there are at least 4 in every WZ? Its an iconic class (even with 2 sabers). A high number does not mean everyone is rolling them because they do tons of damage or are OP. Correlation <> Causation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Yeah i camo or choke the HD lightning. No you can+ knock them back, spike them, stun them, or speed on top of vanishing too. Assassins have a lot more alternatives to defend against ravage. Whats spike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Whats spike? http://www.torhead.com/ability/5HDJ5qS/spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 I posted this in another thread, take it for what it is. The relic part isnt multiplicative but yeah. Still... Building 5 stacks of juyo then using merc, ms, and dispatch? that sounds like the worst, most interruptable combo ever. Unless the target is a dummy. Most sentinels start with 30, inspiration, leap os zealous cauter, valorous popeverything zen, merc -> choke, dispatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Not going to sit here and pretend that Marauder/Sentinel are weak by any stretch, but just a few thoughts as an (admittedly biased) individual: 0) Nearly all the complaints about Marauder and Sentinel stem from PUG play, or at worst the current situation where stacking an entire 8 man team is difficult and unpredictable. Rated Warzones will be, in my opinion, much more critical to balance around than PUG play, and despite some peoples' doom and gloom predictions, I do not foresee heavily Mar/Sent stacked RWZ teams for a whole host of very good reasons. Most of the advantages that make Mar/Sent so frustrating in disorganized play are countered extremely easily in more organized play. 1) Force Camo cooldown increase would murder the class in PVE. This is a big source of QQ in PVP, but if a fix were needed (and I'm not positive that it is), a CD fix is not the way to do it. Mar/Sent DPS is not such that you're ripping hate off a tank every minute, but fight mechanics or trash pulls can frequently leave a class which is quite squishy in PVE up **** creek without a relatively low-cooldown aggro drop. 1a) Modifications to UR/GBTF or Cloak of Pain (and mirror, whose name I'm currently blanking on) would be more palatable without such drastic downside, and it's really CoP that's the nastiest CD when left unchecked. Luckily for organized PVPers, it's easy to check. 2) Marauder is pretty freakin' awful at the objective components of play in Warzones, and as such, tend to have less and less impact on actually WINNING as the skill level rises. In RWZs, only one field on the scoreboard at the end of the match will matter: the one that says "Victory" or "Defeat". Everything else is all but irrelevant. 3) It's much, much harder to have high melee uptime in organized play, compared to PUG play, because organized teams are smart about CC (especially roots) and well-timed use of stuns to invalidate highly predictable defensive cooldowns. Predicting this and popping UR/GBTF early does prolong lifespan but also gives the other team a comparatively larger boost (you're removing a big chunk of your own HP for them). 4) In the grand game of Rock-Paper-Scissors that is class balance in any MMO, Sent/Mar are the scissors to the most popular and weakest classes' paper. The rocks to Sent/Mar's scissors are less popular classes, and are vulnerable to the aforementioned "paper" classes. 5) The only real reason an "average" Sent/Mar is even in the same zipcode as an "average" any other class was the Ravage buff. And that's purely because the "average" any other class tends to be really dumb about dealing with it. 6) The removal of relics and adrenals will likely be a net negative, as sustained DPS is less critical in the current Warzone paradigm than high burst. Relics and adrenals drastically improve the burst of all trees of Mar/Sent, and taking them out of the picture means surviving the high damage over time that a Mar/Sent can do will be more manageable. It will take playtesting to confirm this one, but the nature of warzones, especially in organized play, already points to this. Edited June 8, 2012 by Omophorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) I dont raid, but I cant see how the other 4 cooldowns we have will not save you from trash death, but, I dont pve. Also, combat sents will probably be auto include in every team. Edit: more like 6 - gbtf, stasis, rebuke, ward, awe, pacify Edited June 8, 2012 by Superawesomerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I dont raid, but I cant see how the other 4 cooldowns we have will not save you from trash death, but, I dont pve. Also, combat sents will probably be auto include in every team. Edit: more like 6 - gbtf, stasis, rebuke, ward, awe, pacify the few times i've pulled trash mobs i'd had to either pop everything at once or i died... it was fun! dang pve. And dang combat sent and the 80% run speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 the few times i've pulled trash mobs i'd had to either pop everything at once or i died... it was fun! dang pve. And dang combat sent and the 80% run speed. Yeah... Think I better relearn combat. My prediction for top rated team makeup: Watchman Combat Gunslinger Assault Hybrid tank guardian Kinetic Scoundrel heal Hybrid seer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Not going to sit here and pretend that Marauder/Sentinel are weak by any stretch, but just a few thoughts as an (admittedly biased) individual: 1) Force Camo cooldown increase would murder the class in PVE. This is a big source of QQ in PVP, but if a fix were needed (and I'm not positive that it is), a CD fix is not the way to do it. Mar/Sent DPS is not such that you're ripping hate off a tank every minute, but fight mechanics or trash pulls can frequently leave a class which is quite squishy in PVE up **** creek without a relatively low-cooldown aggro drop.. Increasing the CD of your agro dump is not an option. It is absurdly OP in PvP however and should be altered to match the other dps agro dumps. Quite simple really - the skill itself should do nothing but drop agro like all the others. It BW chooses not to balance Sent/Mara in 1.3 it will be clear this class is the Death Knight of SWTOR. Carry 2 flashy lightsabers and roflstomp thru PvP. A nice intro class for the new users BW thinks they will acquire thru the free trial. Lastly, if this community accepts BW's "stop with your QQ and roll an alt Sent/Mara" attitude towards PUG PvP, then shame on us. Edited June 8, 2012 by Achyllis Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Yeah... Think I better relearn combat. My prediction for top rated team makeup: Watchman Combat Gunslinger Assault Hybrid tank guardian Kinetic Scoundrel heal Hybrid seer I think 3 healers 2 tanks the other 3 optional. They Hybrid Sorc/Sage that mainly heals for pvp Com/Merc healer Op/Scound healer ^that's my healer list. The single target heals of com/merc with the support of the hybrid sorc/sage should be able to keep everyone up while the scoundrel throws out HOTs. With the changes coming to assassin i'm not sure how well they're going to do but def a one of is good. 1 tankasin/shadow 1 immortal jugg because their level of protection can be down right stupid. the 3 DPS... 1 combat/carnage mara/sent Other 2 spots are left of in the air IMO. Maybe some good ranged classes... i hope the tweaks to mercs make them viable as dps in the shared tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Force Camo is probably the only move that stops Force Lightning cost effectively. People really don't realize that if you use a KB to stop 2 ticks of FL then you use up a GCD doing no damage and give the enemy some resolve too. Force Camo obviously doesn't cost you any GCD nor does it give the enemy more resolve, so it actually counters the ability. This is also why you shouldn't try to get to 3 stacks of HD because having a 3 stack HD countered hurts far more than a 2 stack due to the high cost of obtaining the last stack of HD. Also Force Camo is one of the two abilities that can stop Force Lightning but cannot be prevented by Force Shroud (other is Low Slash). This is ignoring some totally crazy scenarios like you Force Charge to another guy really far away to avoid the lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I dont raid, but I cant see how the other 4 cooldowns we have will not save you from trash death, but, I dont pve. Also, combat sents will probably be auto include in every team. Edit: more like 6 - gbtf, stasis, rebuke, ward, awe, pacify Because in harder modes, trash hits hard enough that you're still sponging like a champ with anything but GBTF/UR up. You put enough of a drain on healer resources that you become a detriment to the group. All of the various CDs and CCs are useful to an extent, but when you have a very short window to react or die, a quick hate drop is the most efficient way to help the group keep killing, minimizing your own damage intake, and not have to worry about whether it's one or more things whacking on you. GBTF/UR, Force Camo, and Awe/Intimidating Roar are the only options guaranteed to be effective against multiple mobs. Awe/IR is next to useless because it's a near-guarantee that someone's going to break the mez straight away. GBTF/UR is the fallback "oh ****" button, but the 50% HP penalty still puts strain on healer resources that a quickly-hit Force Camo does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Because in harder modes, trash hits hard enough that you're still sponging like a champ with anything but GBTF/UR up. You put enough of a drain on healer resources that you become a detriment to the group. All of the various CDs and CCs are useful to an extent, but when you have a very short window to react or die, a quick hate drop is the most efficient way to help the group keep killing, minimizing your own damage intake, and not have to worry about whether it's one or more things whacking on you. GBTF/UR, Force Camo, and Awe/Intimidating Roar are the only options guaranteed to be effective against multiple mobs. Awe/IR is next to useless because it's a near-guarantee that someone's going to break the mez straight away. GBTF/UR is the fallback "oh ****" button, but the 50% HP penalty still puts strain on healer resources that a quickly-hit Force Camo does not. Hmmm ok. Oh well, cant touch fade! 8D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kryptaaz Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 ./sign ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 You see the massive amounts of whining from the pve crowd, bioware? YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TO ANYTHING TO FORCE FADE. /cackle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Force Camo is probably the only move that stops Force Lightning cost effectively. People really don't realize that if you use a KB to stop 2 ticks of FL then you use up a GCD doing no damage and give the enemy some resolve too. Force Camo obviously doesn't cost you any GCD nor does it give the enemy more resolve, so it actually counters the ability. This is also why you shouldn't try to get to 3 stacks of HD because having a 3 stack HD countered hurts far more than a 2 stack due to the high cost of obtaining the last stack of HD. Also Force Camo is one of the two abilities that can stop Force Lightning but cannot be prevented by Force Shroud (other is Low Slash). This is ignoring some totally crazy scenarios like you Force Charge to another guy really far away to avoid the lightning. Thanks for clarifying just how absurdly OP the Sent/Mara agro dump is relative to those of all other dps classes. Fix it now please BW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Thanks for clarifying just how absurdly OP the Sent/Mara agro dump is relative to those of all other dps classes. Fix it now please BW. What? No, it wold ruin pve. NOT ALLOWED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Thanks for clarifying just how absurdly OP the Sent/Mara agro dump is relative to those of all other dps classes. Fix it now please BW. Snipers agro dump is just as good in pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 What? No, it wold ruin pve. NOT ALLOWED. In that case I'll trade my Force Cloak for your Force Camo and take my chances. Force Cloak works 100% of the time as an aggro dump in PvE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Snipers agro dump is just as good in pve. They are SUPPOSED to work in PvE. They actually have no place in PvP at all. Easiest solution possible - when you flag for PvP your agro dump is disabled - across the board for all classes. How is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 What? No, it wold ruin pve. NOT ALLOWED. Please see my post on page 29. No impact to PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 They are SUPPOSED to work in PvE. They actually have no place in PvP at all. Easiest solution possible - when you flag for PvP your agro dump is disabled - across the board for all classes. How is that? I know what you're trying to say, but it already does that. If I do ability that strictly drops aggro like some random stuff Merc/Sorc has, it doesn't actually do anything. If I extricate a friendly unit, there's no way the guys chasing him are now somehow less mad at that guy then before. A better solution would be to simply give Marauder another generic 'hit this button if you have too much aggro' that quite a few classes already have, and then increase the CD of Force Camo. For PvE they can simply hit that button instead of Force Camo when they need to lose aggro, and this button would naturally have no effect in PvP to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 They are SUPPOSED to work in PvE. They actually have no place in PvP at all. Easiest solution possible - when you flag for PvP your agro dump is disabled - across the board for all classes. How is that? I guess you never dealt with Hunters Feign Death huh? You could pop that back in the day and lay there for a full minute and not be touched... be able to be seen by everyone just not attacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 In that case I'll trade my Force Cloak for your Force Camo and take my chances. Force Cloak works 100% of the time as an aggro dump in PvE! What is this, pokeymong? NO TRADING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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