1.3 class balancing

[davilorius]

From the Darthhater interview today:

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/20452-darth-hater-interview-game-update-1-3-with-swtor

 

Any thoughts on current class balance that players can expect in 1.3?

 

Austin Peckenpaugh, Senior Designer: In 1.3, we're making some balance and quality of life adjustments. The highlights include tanking survivability and threat generation, with an emphasis on getting all tanks on the same target, particularly where AOE threat is concerned; Mercenary/Commando DPS improvements; Sniper/Gunslinger Marksmanship/Sharpshooter tree improvements; and some visual improvements to a few slow abilities and abilities that still aren't quite mirrored cross-faction (including Shock and Project).

 

Was hoping some healing adjustments would be mentioned. Hopefully this isn't the entirety of the class changes.

 

On another note, BioWare should learn from 1.2 and consider not making class balance changes during a content update. Make them small and frequent in the weekly patches instead. Tune the dial in small increments.

[Lithy]

Good read

[CaptainApop]

Well considering for 1.2 they implied QoL changes to smugg/op and tweaks to the other two...

I think it's safe to say it's still anyone's game.

 

I disagree about the content patch =/= class balacing.

I think it's a cool part of a patchday, it's not just what new stuff is coming but whats changing about your toon that makes a new patch interesting. Now if Bioware could just get a few patches out that didn't give them a bad name we'd be golden.

 

That other MMO tried the weekly changes thing. It became a nightmare as people had to refit and change their toons on a weekly basis. The problem BW have is they evidently aren't getting enough actual testing done on these changes over the gap between patches.

 

Also metrics.

Edited May 23, 2012 by CaptainApop

[RuQu]

Any additional UI customization features we can look forward to in 1.3?

 

Damion Schubert, Lead Systems Designer: Not much in the way of GUI customization – the GUI team has been pretty much devoted to the group finder this milestone. One programmer did get in quest hyperlinking, so that should be coming in 1.3.

 

So it also looks like they are continuing to ignore the glaring UI complaints of the healing community.

 

To be fair, their metrics probably barely show enough healers to register, so they may not even know we exist anymore.

[RStoney]

Was hoping to read a bit more "meat" in the article (probably always feel that way) but unfortunately with only a couple days remaining on the free month sub, looks like I will just have to watch these forums to see if 1.3 unborks the 1.2 "improvements".

 

Really hope it does - even some of my more snarky posts aside, am in the camp that wants swtor to be fun / engaging. I enjoyed the game leveling up - first time playing a pure spec healer. Was difficult, felt like I could really 'turn the tide' or give my team a fighting chance with some smart choices and lots of hustle in any WZ or area PvP.

Solo play - the story line (sage seemingly to be the 'slowest') was good, so am sure the "top" story lines would be great.

 

meh - "Best of Luck" to us healers? All classes?

[XtremJedi]

The highlights include tanking survivability and threat generation, with an emphasis on getting all tanks on the same target, particularly where AOE threat is concerned

 

Sounds remarkably like what they said before the healing changes in 1.2. I'm not sure that it's very reassuring if you're a tank.

 

X

Edited May 23, 2012 by XtremJedi

[TempestasSilva]

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-may-25th-2012-%E2%80%93-special-edition-game-update-1.3

 

Brutalos: What class balances can we expect from Game Update 1.3 and will it undo some of the changes done in 1.2?

 

Austin: Game Update 1.2 brought damage dealing and healing roles closer to target than they had previously been. If for you and your class that meant a reduction in performance, that can be a hard thing for me to justify to you. I think it's fair to say that some of those changes were made by reducing usability instead of just reducing numbers, and it's these usability issues that we want to correct and negative changes to usability that we don't want to repeat in the future. Like I said before, we'll have more detailed information for you soon, but if I had to identify a motif for class changes in future updates, it'd be "improved usability."

Maybe there is hope. It sound like they are still fine with numbers, but maybe they will fix SuperCharged Gas as an example. What a novel idea.

[pointvector]

What I really don't understand is their total lack of using the beta community. I beta tested for a six months, sent in maybe a hundred bug reports, and general complaints that could have at least been addressed. Nothing. Not one thing changed when I leveled ANOTHER sorc healer when the game went live. Now, 1.3 is getting ready to be released "soon," and they are just now taking sign ups for the testing. IMO, this stuff needs to be quality tested, and when they fix the "really horrible" bugs, then it gets released. I read the patch notes, and every week they fix like ten things. The process should be more effecient than that.

[TempestasSilva]

Nothing for healers in 1.3.

[oredith]

Nothing for healers in 1.3.

my powertech tank got a buff though.. >_>

 

didn't actually have threat issues before, but i guess I'll be supertank now.

 

so much for the hope of being able to dust off my merc healer.

[RuQu]

 

• Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow have been slightly redesigned to deal AOE damage when striking a target with 5 sunder stacks (and now spread those stacks). This AOE damage is “smart” and will not hit enemies affected by control that breaks on damage.
   
  
• The AOE damage dealt by Slow Time/Wither is now “smart” and will not hit enemies affected by control that breaks on damage.
   
  
• Supercharged Ion Cell/Gas now cause High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot to trigger your Ion Cell/Cylinder on the target and on up to 4 additional nearby targets. This AOE damage generates a high amount of threat and is “smart,” meaning it will not hit enemies affected by control that breaks on damage.
  

 

 

Note these three changes. They added smart targeting to tank AoE so you can safely use the AoE parts of your rotation with CC in place. This is a great change for tanks (and my Shadow would love it if I still played at all) in terms of quality of life, and shows they have the capability to do some smart-targeting programming.

 

Note what is required for these abilities to work. These attacks, like the AoE heals, have a target limit. Slow Time hits up to 5 targets. Look at the possible situations:

 

3 mobs, 2 CCed: You can safely use ST for the debuff.

3 mobs, 1 CCed: You can safely use ST for the debuff, plus threat on both.

5 mobs, 1-4 CCed: Safe, trivial situation.

6+ mobs, 5 non-CCed: This is where it gets interesting (and someone should test). Do all 5 free mobs get the ST debuff every time? If not, that means CCed mobs are immune, but still targeted. If yes, that means that it queries the state of targets and their properties, and then decides if they are a valid target or not and, after ruling out all CCed mobs, it always arrives at the same list of valid targets, the 5 that are free.

 

Why does this matter? It matters because querying target properties before deciding on targets is what is needed before you can have a smart-targeted AoE heal. That they have never provided that functionality to healers suggested that their design made doing so difficult or impossible. That they can now do so with an attack suggests that they have either changed enough of their design to allow it, or they always had the option. It also means that smart-healing on AoE heals is now just a matter of them being willing to do so, the capability is present.

 

Of course, considering how long that has been a healer request, the fact that it is not part of 1.3 despite the abysmal state of healing is not comforting.

[oredith]

Of course, considering how long that has been a healer request, the fact that it is not part of 1.3 despite the abysmal state of healing is not comforting.

i think the fact that they didn't address healing AT ALL in the notes is more distressing.

 

it reaffirms my belief that the dev team likes where healing is in game right now..

[Codek]

• Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow have been slightly redesigned to deal AOE damage when striking a target with 5 sunder stacks (and now spread those stacks). This AOE damage is “smart” and will not hit enemies affected by control that breaks on damage.
   
  
• The AOE damage dealt by Slow Time/Wither is now “smart” and will not hit enemies affected by control that breaks on damage.
   
  
• Supercharged Ion Cell/Gas now cause High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot to trigger your Ion Cell/Cylinder on the target and on up to 4 additional nearby targets. This AOE damage generates a high amount of threat and is “smart,” meaning it will not hit enemies affected by control that breaks on damage.
  

 

Note these three changes. They added smart targeting to tank AoE so you can safely use the AoE parts of your rotation with CC in place. This is a great change for tanks (and my Shadow would love it if I still played at all) in terms of quality of life, and shows they have the capability to do some smart-targeting programming.

 

Note what is required for these abilities to work. These attacks, like the AoE heals, have a target limit. Slow Time hits up to 5 targets. Look at the possible situations:

 

3 mobs, 2 CCed: You can safely use ST for the debuff.

3 mobs, 1 CCed: You can safely use ST for the debuff, plus threat on both.

5 mobs, 1-4 CCed: Safe, trivial situation.

6+ mobs, 5 non-CCed: This is where it gets interesting (and someone should test). Do all 5 free mobs get the ST debuff every time? If not, that means CCed mobs are immune, but still targeted. If yes, that means that it queries the state of targets and their properties, and then decides if they are a valid target or not and, after ruling out all CCed mobs, it always arrives at the same list of valid targets, the 5 that are free.

 

Why does this matter? It matters because querying target properties before deciding on targets is what is needed before you can have a smart-targeted AoE heal. That they have never provided that functionality to healers suggested that their design made doing so difficult or impossible. That they can now do so with an attack suggests that they have either changed enough of their design to allow it, or they always had the option. It also means that smart-healing on AoE heals is now just a matter of them being willing to do so, the capability is present.

 

Of course, considering how long that has been a healer request, the fact that it is not part of 1.3 despite the abysmal state of healing is not comforting.

 

I still feel that smart healing is unnecessary and takes away a bit of the challenge to organizing a way to heal effectively overall. It only makes healing easier and adds no added strategy or challenge to the game so I don't see the fun that would come from having it implemented. What is wrong with having Mercenaries/ Commandos pay attention to where they place there missiles to hit the most people with low health. Or having Sorcs/Sages communicate with people to stop standing in the circle with full health.

 

Why do we want a system where everyone should gather together and let the healing mechanics do the work for us? What are the benefits to having it?

[CaptainApop]

Nothing for healers in 1.3.

 

Actually I lost 6% self healing. So there's that.

 

EDIT: Skimming through it seems all "+% healing received" talents have been slashed. So...yay.

 

 

Adrenals that were craftable by Biochemists before 1.3 can no longer be used in PvP Areas.

Attack Adrenals now reduce healing done by 20% when active.

The damage penalty of Triage Adrenals has been reduced from 50% to 20%.

 

/sadpanda

Edited June 6, 2012 by CaptainApop

[RuQu]

I still feel that smart healing is unnecessary and takes away a bit of the challenge to organizing a way to heal effectively overall. It only makes healing easier and adds no added strategy or challenge to the game so I don't see the fun that would come from having it implemented. What is wrong with having Mercenaries/ Commandos pay attention to where they place there missiles to hit the most people with low health. Or having Sorcs/Sages communicate with people to stop standing in the circle with full health.

 

Why do we want a system where everyone should gather together and let the healing mechanics do the work for us? What are the benefits to having it?

 

This has been gone over so many times I will keep this version short.

 

The current system of AoE dumb-healing does not promote skill. It is based on the closest people to the center, and there is no practical way to control that as the healer. Yes, you can sometimes change placement to get 4 wounded people closest to the center when they could otherwise have been in the radius but further than a full-health person. However, there are other times when you simply cannot. Someone at high health is directly next to a low health person, and between two low health people such that to hit both requires actually centering the AoE on or near the high health person. For example, say you are trying to AoE heal some melee DPS and the other healer already topped the tank. The 4 melee DPS are standing near the tank, with the tank between them. You could ask one pair of them to move, but that is DPS time on target lost. Perhaps they should have both been on the same side, perhaps the mechanics encourages spreading out a little more and they shouldn't have been. Either way, smart healing would let you heal those 4 melee DPS without healing the already topped off tank. Dumb-healing would only heal 3, since you would be aiming the center near the tank who would not benefit much or at all.

 

And that is just a static example. Now make it a fight where people are moving...or something like Soa platforms where you have little control over placement during rapid movement with damage.

 

Now consider an example where people cluster up, such as a phase change or hiding behind a pillar for AoE. A Sage/Sorc can do AoE during that period and be confident of not wasting it. Other healer AoE is useless, as the odds are high that it will hit the wrong targets.

 

Smart-healing still requires you choose where to place it so people are in the radius, but it allows you to be confident that the intended targets will be healed and not some random person who didn't need it. It also, and this is key, makes target limited AoE healing useful during phases explicitly designed for AoE healing, when people can stack up and stand still, which are phases where non-Sage/Sorc AoE is actually currently nearly worthless.

[RuQu]

We are also striving to make all tanks hit the same survivability targets for Game Update 1.3. Testing shows that the self-healing generated by Shadow/Assassin tanks is too powerful after the armor adjustment they receive via Combat Technique/Dark Charge. This armor adjustment should have brought Shadow/Assassin tanks to lower passive survivability levels than the heavy armor tanks, with the self-healing they provide making up for the difference. However, this armor adjustment was making them passively just as good as the heavy armor tanks, with the self-healing taking them a bit beyond our survivability targets. Rather than hit armor or self-healing too hard, we’ve opted to adjust both by a much smaller amount.

 

I think part of the problem is starting to become clear. Note the underlined sections. Self-healing was "a bit" too good when combined with their passive survivability, and they didn't want to nerf either self-healing or passive DR "too hard" so the chose to nerf them by "a much smaller amount."

 

Now let's look at how small that "much smaller amount" is:

The healing generated by Combat Technique/Dark Charge has been reduced by approximately 50%.

The healing generated by Harnessed Shadows/Harnessed Darkness has been reduced to 8% in total (down from 12% in total).

The armor provided by Combat Technique/Dark Charge has been reduced to +115% (down from 150%).

 

Passive self healing was nerfed 50%.

Active self-healing was nerfed 33%.

Armor DR was nerfed by 23.3% (39.4% nerf of their light armor compensation bonus)*

 

*

 

There is room for confusion when talking about percent nerfs of things that are percentages.

150-115 = 35

So DR decreased by 35%

 

35 / 150 = 23.333%

This 35% reduction from the previous 150% DR bonus is a 23.33% nerf.

 

Note also that the heavy armor classes get a armor DR buff of 61.25% (60% in tooltip, but tooltips lie). This is the value for Vanguards at least, I don't recall if Guardians are exactly the same but I believe they are. So previously the "bonus" armor DR for Shadows was 88.75%. Now it is 53.75%. Their bonus DR, to offset light armor, was cut by 39.4% (35/88.75).

 

 

These large percentage nerfs are what they call "much smaller" adjustments. What were the original options? Remove self-healing entirely? Remove the light armor offset bonus to tanking stance entirely?

 

I think one of the basic issues we see is that these Devs are incapable of small adjustments. Their smallest hammer is an 8lb sledge.

[CaptainApop]

This looks to be exactly what happened in WoW with deathknight tanks ( self-heal based tank) if anyone recalls.

 

 

It didn't go well for the deathknights.

[Codek]

This has been gone over so many times I will keep this version short.

 

The current system of AoE dumb-healing does not promote skill. It is based on the closest people to the center, and there is no practical way to control that as the healer. Yes, you can sometimes change placement to get 4 wounded people closest to the center when they could otherwise have been in the radius but further than a full-health person. However, there are other times when you simply cannot. Someone at high health is directly next to a low health person, and between two low health people such that to hit both requires actually centering the AoE on or near the high health person. For example, say you are trying to AoE heal some melee DPS and the other healer already topped the tank. The 4 melee DPS are standing near the tank, with the tank between them. You could ask one pair of them to move, but that is DPS time on target lost. Perhaps they should have both been on the same side, perhaps the mechanics encourages spreading out a little more and they shouldn't have been. Either way, smart healing would let you heal those 4 melee DPS without healing the already topped off tank. Dumb-healing would only heal 3, since you would be aiming the center near the tank who would not benefit much or at all.

 

And that is just a static example. Now make it a fight where people are moving...or something like Soa platforms where you have little control over placement during rapid movement with damage.

 

Now consider an example where people cluster up, such as a phase change or hiding behind a pillar for AoE. A Sage/Sorc can do AoE during that period and be confident of not wasting it. Other healer AoE is useless, as the odds are high that it will hit the wrong targets.

 

Smart-healing still requires you choose where to place it so people are in the radius, but it allows you to be confident that the intended targets will be healed and not some random person who didn't need it. It also, and this is key, makes target limited AoE healing useful during phases explicitly designed for AoE healing, when people can stack up and stand still, which are phases where non-Sage/Sorc AoE is actually currently nearly worthless.

 

I appreciate the short version.

 

This seems like an issue that can easily bounce back and forth between the concept that the "dumb heal" does not require skill to place it. I'm assuming many others have argued against this in the past. I would still like to emphasize that damage either occurs as single target damage in this game or AoE (either location based or raid wide). If situations where topped off people are scattered in with those with low health then that indicates time has already passed for your chance to most effectively heal with an AoE heal to counter the attack. Poor planning and hesitation will lead to those moments and poor playing should not be rewarded with "smart heals".

 

At least right now when I go to place an AoE heal, I first look at the situation and think "where are the members with low health", followed by "Do I want to place it slightly to the left of them, slightly to the right, or right in the middle to increase my chances of hitting the most who are low on health". With smart heals, simply look for multiple targets with low health and shoot, fairly straight forward.

 

There is just an added level of thought involved, and if you feel that it doesn't exist then I don't know what to say.

 

But unless the implementation of smart heals adds a new and challenging feel to the gameplay for swtor and not just a buff for AoE healing to compete with Sorc/Sages (it's their true niche mechanic after all), then I don't see why BW would take it beyond consideration right now.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Codek

[XtremJedi]

I must admit to struggling to believe that they've really not made any adjustments at all to healing. I could understand them not wanting to make any more major changes... but not even just a few 'usability changes' as Brutalos put it...

 

Bleh.

 

On the upside, I don't think I'm going to be active at all in these forums from now on. I'd still vaguely been hanging on to the hope, that the devs might still have been listening a bit. But it seems abundantly clear that this isn't the case now.

 

I may drop by in a few months time to see what 1.4 might have brought.... and I'll be interested to see what their subs do over the next couple of months or so...

 

X

Edited June 6, 2012 by XtremJedi

[oredith]

I must admit to struggling to believe that they've really not made any adjustments at all to healing. I could understand them not wanting to make any more major changes... but not even just a few 'usability changes' as Brutalos put it...

 

Bleh.

 

On the upside, I don't think I'm going to be active at all in these forums from now on. I'd still vaguely been hanging on to the hope, that the devs might still have been listening a bit. But it seems abundantly clear that this isn't the case now.

 

I may drop by in a few months time to see what 1.4 might have brought.... and I'll be interested to see what their subs do over the next couple of months or so...

 

X

I checked this morning, i still have 76 days left on my sub. I bet RuQu's in the same boat.. -_-

 

i seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt there's gonna be healing changes by 1.4. I think the people with rose tinted glasses saw the JO interview as "healing can take some tweaks", but I always read it more as "we're happy with the changes, and IF something happens, we MAY make some tweaks".

[oredith]

I think one of the basic issues we see is that these Devs are incapable of small adjustments. Their smallest hammer is an 8lb sledge.

don't worry guys, i'm sure there's some under the hood changes that make those numbers not be as drastic as you're making them out to be..

[RuQu]

I checked this morning, i still have 76 days left on my sub. I bet RuQu's in the same boat.. -_-

 

i seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt there's gonna be healing changes by 1.4. I think the people with rose tinted glasses saw the JO interview as "healing can take some tweaks", but I always read it more as "we're happy with the changes, and IF something happens, we MAY make some tweaks".

 

71 remaining, but I haven't logged in for over 37 days now, and I don't feel particularly drawn to end that streak. The patch notes certainly don't do anything to bring me back.

 

No healer changes.

No healer requested UI changes.

No smart-healing (despite adding smart-aoe-dps for tanks)

Nerf to the DPS adrenal to stop healers from using it (admittedly while making the DPS penalty on the healer intended adrenal less punishing).

Nerfs to Shadow self-healing and survivability (my other level 50 class).

Continued use of large changes instead of minor adjustments in their balance attempts.

 

They lost me in the fallout from 1.2. My initial 6 month sub + free time gives them a window to win me back...but it looks pretty clear that 1.3 isn't going to be the patch to do that.

[RoadRash]

Bioware = Fail

 

Beyond disappointed with the lack of any changes to bodyguards. Guess they need to lose more subs before they understand.

[oredith]

Bioware = Fail

 

Beyond disappointed with the lack of any changes to bodyguards. Guess they need to lose more subs before they understand.

i honestly don't think i'm exaggerating, nor out of line in this thinking:

 

the devs actually think they have it all right, and we're wrong, and that if we can't see the light, that we're the ones that are lost, not them.

[NoFishing]

On the upside, I don't think I'm going to be active at all in these forums from now on. I'd still vaguely been hanging on to the hope, that the devs might still have been listening a bit. But it seems abundantly clear that this isn't the case now.

 

FYI, I really enjoy your informative and reasoned postings over in the sage forum.

 

These survivability nerfs to the most common tanking class in the game (IME) is yet another kick in the pants to healers.