How would you describe Tactics' role in PvP?

[Philosomanic]

I'm curious what you veteran Tactics players would say your role in PvP is. Shield spec is obvious: support. They should focus first and foremost on keeping their allies alive with guard, taunts, debuffs, and control. They have an incredible ability to keep their allies alive. Guard + Taunt + Static Field = -69% damage against that ally. Add in Smoke Grenade and the ability to Harpoon and root the enemy 30m away from your ally, and that's a lot of support.

 

As Assault, I view my role as counter-support. I have plenty of armor-penetrating and elemental damage to melt tanks, and my defenses are high enough to outlast their DPS. I've got harpoon to isolate a healer from their support structure, and I can stack up enough burst in a short period to out-DPS their self-healing. I focus on taking down enemy support first and foremost, and it gives my allies a large advantage. I can do fairly well in the DPS scrum, but Marauders and Snipers have a slight advantage over me in a fight as pure-DPS classes. I feel I help my team better by depriving the enemy of support.

 

However, I'm not all that experienced with Tactics. I gave it a try, and though it was fun it didn't match my play style as well as Assault does. How would you describe your role in a warzone? Are you in the thick of the DPS fight with your huge AoE? Do you focus on taking down enemy ranged/caster DPS? Are you also counter-support?

[wadecounty]

This is what I'm curious about as well. I'm leveling a Vanguard right now, and I really want to give Tactics a try just to see if its as mediocre as people say it is.

 

It has a lot of interesting bells and whistles, but ultimately they seem semi wasted... Hold the Line is arguably superior to Storm in a lot of situations, but in the end you're reliant on Pulse Cannon for a lot of your DPS, a move that requires you to be stationary.

 

You have to invest 6 points into the Gut skill line just to get a snare that only lasts 6 seconds, and only slows the target by 30%... While the snares in the Shield and Assault trees only last 2 seconds, they're tied to moves you'll want to spam, whereas using Gut for the slow would mean clipping your DOT constantly.

 

High Energy Cell lets you spam your attacks more often, but time and time again its been proven burst > sustained DPS in a warzone.

 

Then on top of that, while Tactics get a couple of small passive defensive buffs, Assault gets their cd lowered on their shield by a whole minute on average, and in PvP, powerful defensive cd's > small passive defenses.

 

I really, really want to like Tactics, because I love the idea of being a ****** trooper charging into the frontlines... can someone convince me its worth sticking it out? Keep in mind, I'm only level 24 and am 3 levels or so away from Hold the Line or Pulse Generator, huge reasons to have Tactics.

 

One more thing, Assassin/Shadow tanks are really ruining wz's on my server, they're too tough to take down while still providing nice DPS AND having stealth, and most wz's are decided by whoever has more. I know a DPS's job isn't to kill tanks, but if I wanted to take one down, what would I have more success with, Tactics or Assault? I know Assault will lay down the damage but I worry they can too easily kite me, while Hold the Line would be great for when they spam their slow or being able to run out of line of sight from their self heal attack, and I also have the option of countering that attack with a 5 stack Pulse Cannon.

[ATango]

I'm testing tactics atm and that 30% slow is enough. With a target slowed and you running around with 30% increased speed and immunity with HTL you will be dancing all around them. Note, HTL doesn't make you immune to flashbangs, stuns and harpoon.

 

I still haven't been able to find my niche with this spec as far as role is concerned. Got fried on healer duty as this spec lacks survivability and that is what you need on an enemy healer amongst their ranged. Let the other melee deal with it as the have better defensive and escape abilities. So I think tactics will be better suited for killing the melee on our healer while our ranged deals with theirs.

[wadecounty]

I'm testing tactics atm and that 30% slow is enough. With a target slowed and you running around with 30% increased speed and immunity with HTL you will be dancing all around them. Note, HTL doesn't make you immune to flashbangs, stuns and harpoon.

 

I still haven't been able to find my niche with this spec as far as role is concerned. Got fried on healer duty as this spec lacks survivability and that is what you need on an enemy healer amongst their ranged. Let the other melee deal with it as the have better defensive and escape abilities. So I think tactics will be better suited for killing the melee on our healer while our ranged deals with theirs.

 

Thanks for the feedback. What spec are you running?

 

I'm strongly considering one someone posted in another thread they dubbed a survival spec, http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G00MZrkrRRMfkdsZb.1

 

I just don't know if Rebraced Armor is really worth taking though, haven't seen anyone else suggest it. But I prefer the idea of a Tactics build that adds survivability, because you're not going to be a better DPS than Assault if for no other reason than their burst capabilities.

[ATango]

Running a 8/31/2 spec. Max damage, going with the theory the best defense is offense with this dps spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

Check the tactics sticky, some very good tips and recommendations.

Edited May 22, 2012 by ATango

[TheOpf]

Thanks for the feedback. What spec are you running?

 

I'm strongly considering one someone posted in another thread they dubbed a survival spec, http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G00MZrkrRRMfkdsZb.1

 

I just don't know if Rebraced Armor is really worth taking though, haven't seen anyone else suggest it. But I prefer the idea of a Tactics build that adds survivability, because you're not going to be a better DPS than Assault if for no other reason than their burst capabilities.

 

Rebraced Armor is pretty weak, but it will help with the Snipers and Marauders. As a tactics guy your job is to move around killing other melee guys. Leave the snipers to guys who can get to them, dps is easy to drop, and you can pressure a healer enough once you get your rotation down. Leave healer to those with more stuns. You have enough dps and damage burst potential to drop just about anyone of equal gear. With the shield and HtL you have the mobility to survive long enough to keep the pressure on anyone.

 

Remember you are dps but staying mobile until PC is ready to unleash on someone.

[Krayshawn]

Please don't doubt tactics until you have a fully speced build, as in, hit 50 before you knock it. (also get BM)

[Philosomanic]

As a tactics guy your job is to move around killing other melee guys. Leave the snipers to guys who can get to them, dps is easy to drop, and you can pressure a healer enough once you get your rotation down. Leave healer to those with more stuns. You have enough dps and damage burst potential to drop just about anyone of equal gear. With the shield and HtL you have the mobility to survive long enough to keep the pressure on anyone.

 

Remember you are dps but staying mobile until PC is ready to unleash on someone.

 

See, this is the opposite of what I'd expect. Tactics should definitely leave Snipers alone, because they're the counter-Vanguard (as much as there is such a thing). However with a 6s interrupt, Hold The Line, and un-kite-able mobility, it seems like you'd be a really strong counter to Mercenaries and Sorcerers. However, in melee, I'd give Marauders (for example) a slight edge due to their crazy cooldowns and DPS to match ours.

 

However, Tactics as a pressure player makes a lot of sense to me. Tactics has great sustained DPS, and they're impossible to escape with all that mobility. Tactics may not be able to burst a healer down like Assault, but you could definitely force them to self-heal and watch their team die around them.

[kjfett]

Please don't doubt tactics until you have a fully speced build, as in, hit 50 before you knock it. (also get BM)

 

I did and really enjoyed tactics....

 

then I tried assault....

 

50% increase in DPS.

 

It's not that assault is bad, it is fun and it is a DPS build, but it doesn't hold a candle to DPS in Assault and Assault is just as fun.

[TheOpf]

I did and really enjoyed tactics....

 

then I tried assault....

 

50% increase in DPS.

 

It's not that assault is bad, it is fun and it is a DPS build, but it doesn't hold a candle to DPS in Assault and Assault is just as fun.

 

If you saw a 50 percent increase in dps, than it was either a gear change or you weren't playing it correctly. It's a 5 percent increase in damage. I actually lose damage when I switch to Assault/Pyro. You are completely off base with your estimation.

 

The correct statement should be - "For Me, I can' t play tactics so assault is far better for me personally." Your misinformation on Tactics is astounding. Assault is only 50 percent better if you did absolutely everything wrong all the time as tactics.

[HeavensTerror]

Tactics is very situational. It mainly revolves around building up your Pulse Generator until you fine that perfect moment to use your Pulse Cannon.

 

Tactics is very fun to play imo, but AS is still the king when it comes to dps.

Edited May 22, 2012 by HeavensTerror

[TheOpf]

Tactics is very situational. It mainly revolves around building up your Pulse Generator until you fine that perfect moment to use your Pulse Cannon.

 

Tactics is very fun to play imo, but AS is still the king when it comes to dps.

 

This is incorrect. Tactics is not situational. It requires you to play with constant awareness. Situational means that it's only good at certain times. This is incorrect.

 

Your assumption about AS is wrong as well. AS is 5 percent better if played perfectly. Many of us are better Tactics/AP players than we are Pyro/Assault.

[Krayshawn]

This is incorrect. Tactics is not situational. It requires you to play with constant awareness. Situational means that it's only good at certain times. This is incorrect.

 

Your assumption about AS is wrong as well. AS is 5 percent better if played perfectly. Many of us are better Tactics/AP players than we are Pyro/Assault.

 

TheOpf, does the current bug on PG with AoE accounted in? i feel that, at times, this provides a significant return.

[wadecounty]

How does the bug work exactly? I know it affects Sticky/Mortar Volley, but does it also use up your stacks? Or could you potentially build 5 stacks, use a sticky, use a mortar volley, and still fire off a 5 stack pulse cannon?

[Krayshawn]

How does the bug work exactly? I know it affects Sticky/Mortar Volley, but does it also use up your stacks? Or could you potentially build 5 stacks, use a sticky, use a mortar volley, and still fire off a 5 stack pulse cannon?

 

i have done the later.

[wadecounty]

i have done the later.

 

That's kinda nice then. It virtually turns your Sticky into an Assault Plastique when you have 5 stacks, not to mention what it does to Mortar Volley.

 

Kinda hard to say what would be better, that or the snare on PC.

[Deehorsey]

I've been playing tactics for quite some time now. Let me shed some light on how to effectively play it/answer some questions.

 

Things you should know about tactics:

 

1. Pulse Generator currently give +50% damage to sticky grenade, mortal volley, explosive surge, and of course, pulse cannon. The 70% snare does not work (Which will be HUGE for when it does)

 

2. Hold the Line is the single most unappreciated skill in this game. Rather than thinking how it will win you 1v1's, think of how it is effective for objectives. Running a ball, getting down the hall in voidstar, even for just running away.

 

3. Gut is garbage. There is no doubt about it. The snare is a joke. But, its better than nothing. But as a tactics player, I am only getting it because it brings me up to the higher tiers of the tree. What it is effective for, however, is kiting once HtL runs out and is on CD. Its also spammable, so you can tab around and snare a bunch of people for objective related things.

 

4. The speed buff on HEC is negated by snares, which hinders your ability to kite effectively.

 

So for those of you who know this already, or still don't see the purpose behind playing it, you aren't wrong. This spec is pretty bad right now. While it does have the ability to dish out some serious aoe (stack your pulse generator, then do a sticky grenade/mortar volley/pulse cannon rotation) the damage is too weak, the survivability essentially the same as assault, and the utility too small to make it effective.

 

 

But don't be discouraged. The reason I play it is to run it with ion cell:

My "Tictac Tank" Spec

 

I lose the minor speed buff and ammo regen from HEC, but my net gain is huge.

I gain back the armor/shielding and guard a shield spec vanguard has. Also, when stunned, I gain an additional 20% damage reduction (shock absorbers). So potentially, more defensive than full shield.

Having a passive snare proc (thats 50%, compared to guts 30%) also helps.

As this spec tends to be ammo starved, you'll want to twist hammer shots into your rotation.

 

This is probably the most difficult spec I've played as vanguard, and enjoy it as such. It is okay at best for 1v1s, but I'm more of a team player anyhow.

[kjfett]

If you saw a 50 percent increase in dps, than it was either a gear change or you weren't playing it correctly. It's a 5 percent increase in damage. I actually lose damage when I switch to Assault/Pyro. You are completely off base with your estimation.

 

The correct statement should be - "For Me, I can' t play tactics so assault is far better for me personally." Your misinformation on Tactics is astounding. Assault is only 50 percent better if you did absolutely everything wrong all the time as tactics.

 

Excuse me? I did say that "I" made the change and saw a 50% improvement. Keep your interweb's attitude and forum trolling to yourself. They aren't need in the VG forums at the least.

[Fdzzaigl]

Tactics can do very very high single target burst, but it requires more attacks than assault.

 

If you can unleash a fully stacked Pulse Cannon with trinket and possibly adrenal on 3-4-5 people, you will see the most glorious rain of damage numbers on your screen as your PC ticks for 2k+, amazing.

 

A week ago, I had a voidstar where 6 enemy players were standing to the side of the door, I snuck up behind them with a fully stacked PC, neural pulse + trinket + wz adrenal and started the pain. At the same time, another trooper started a mortar volley on them. I kid you not, their entire team of 6 people died, right then and there.

 

The problem is the situational nature of the spec (except in Huttball, where you are an excellent harasser and objective player throughout), your own team is also prone to **** you over: for some reason TOR players seem magnetically attracted to their knockback buttons when facing large groups of enemies, even if those enemies are disabled and standing in a friendly AOE. I've had my perfect aoe ruined by a teammate so many times after I painstakingly set it up, even in premades.

+the tree is still bugged, with PC not applying the 70% snare, which is a huge disadvantage.

 

Assault is probably still more useful, as single target burst is simply still the best way to go and to coordinate. It is also more useful when you have another commando / VG assault in your team.

 

However, in warzones where my team is good and their team is good, I'm pushing similar damage numbers with both specs. Assault does better in bad teams, and against bad teams (you can waltz over them).

Edited May 23, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Philosomanic]

Yeah, I know all the good things about Tactics (and for the record, Gut was essential for how I played it because of the crazy burst from HiB. 60% armor penetration is still great). I enjoyed the class, but I'm just a little unsure of the role it plays in a team.

 

I'm seeing it as an objective-centric pressure spec. You're great for ball-carrying in huttball, great for controlling catwalks, and great for pressuring the enemy carrier. At a stationary node like in Voidstar/Alderaan/Novare, your crazy AoE really shines through. I think you'd do better at pressure than taking down enemy support.

 

The reason I think people see Assault as having so much more damage is the way it does that damage. Assault and Tactics going through their burst rotation are going to do roughly the same amount of damage, over roughly the same period of time. However, Assault is able to compress their burst into a really small amount of time. Assault can do IR -> IP -> AP, and see very little damage done. However, that's two DoTs and a delayed damage attack that are going to be doing damage during their burst phase. So even though both spec's burst takes the same amount of time to pull off, Assault's damage occurs in a much shorter period of time. This makes the damage appear much higher.

 

Additionally, the range/melee difference is interesting. Assault can do far more damage from range, which means they can do damage as they approach or after being knocked back. However, Tactics can close much faster and much better, and it's harder to get away from them. So if you're in a fight where there are a lot of targets spread around and you do a lot of running, Assault is going to perform better. If the targets are closer together, approach time is lower and AoE is stronger, so Tactics will do better. Or at least that's what I've found when I played it.

[TheOpf]

Yeah, I know all the good things about Tactics (and for the record, Gut was essential for how I played it because of the crazy burst from HiB. 60% armor penetration is still great). I enjoyed the class, but I'm just a little unsure of the role it plays in a team.

 

I'm seeing it as an objective-centric pressure spec. You're great for ball-carrying in huttball, great for controlling catwalks, and great for pressuring the enemy carrier. At a stationary node like in Voidstar/Alderaan/Novare, your crazy AoE really shines through. I think you'd do better at pressure than taking down enemy support.

 

The reason I think people see Assault as having so much more damage is the way it does that damage. Assault and Tactics going through their burst rotation are going to do roughly the same amount of damage, over roughly the same period of time. However, Assault is able to compress their burst into a really small amount of time. Assault can do IR -> IP -> AP, and see very little damage done. However, that's two DoTs and a delayed damage attack that are going to be doing damage during their burst phase. So even though both spec's burst takes the same amount of time to pull off, Assault's damage occurs in a much shorter period of time. This makes the damage appear much higher.

 

Additionally, the range/melee difference is interesting. Assault can do far more damage from range, which means they can do damage as they approach or after being knocked back. However, Tactics can close much faster and much better, and it's harder to get away from them. So if you're in a fight where there are a lot of targets spread around and you do a lot of running, Assault is going to perform better. If the targets are closer together, approach time is lower and AoE is stronger, so Tactics will do better. Or at least that's what I've found when I played it.

 

A well thought out response. I agree on many of your points. I have a story that exemplifies your points.

 

I fought an Assault Trooper, and we split our 4 1v1 fights. I found it to be almost exactly the way he stated. I am an Advanced Prototype Bounty Hunter. In the two fights, he won, He was able to get 3 AP. I now hate that beep beep beep sound haha. The fights went like this. I jumped him, he dumped his dots on me. I used HTL to strafe in circles around him until I popped PFT on him. He was at half health and He took off 1/3rd of my health in a split second when HiB – AP – RP – Hip hit me. I was up, than he stunned me I broke it, and he restunned and hit me with the second AP/HiB/RP/HiB. I was down 2/3rds to just under ½. I continued to pressure him at this point I carbonized him and PFT’d him to go, unfortunately, I didn’t kill him, but we were both down to less than ¼ health when I heard the beep beep beep on me. I died.

 

Next battle, I dropped him with 3 PFT’s and used my CC’s ever 14 secs. He died because his rng was bad. He only hit me with one multi-combo. Third battle, I blew threw him because PFT had all crits and he died faster than a one armed Marauder. Granted he still farmed half my health. The third battle was a long ardourous battle with both of us almost dying twice and using adrenals and med pacs. Great stuns, I had him down to ¼ health left, and I had 1/3rd when I heard the beep beep beep. AP boom, HIB, SS and boom I went down. I knew I was dead once he hit me with the beep beep beep, and so I just tried to kill him as well. Unfortunately I didn’t have the time to drop PFT and Immolate was on CD so it was Flame Burst and Rocket Punch which wasn’t enough, and I died.

It definitely gave me a great look at the Assault. It’s all peaks and valleys. I thought I was going to win every time, but when his RNG would proc and AP would get on me. My health would drop in large portions. 1/3rd to ½ my health would be gone in a flash than very little until it would proc again. While I steadily pushed his health down until PFT hit and then it would go down a bit faster after Immolate.

 

Everything in AP hits between 2.2 and 3.8k with even our biggest hitter being a channeled cast. AP/Tactics is consistent pressure with great mobility and the ability to control ranged and melee with multiple interrupts and CC’s. PFT/PG forces an attacker to go defensive. In a fight with an Assault all the opposing fighter is trying to do is kill. Against Tactics/AP, they start playing defensive because their health just keeps ticking away. I do wish Tactics had a better dot than Gut/RB.