Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Vaerming]

I hate the atmosphere damage meters create.

 

Still I would like to see some tool (by BioWare) strictly for self evaluation.

 

Which would tell me e.g. how much damage I do on average, i.e. which gives me some idea how well I do compared to the average.

 

Which would tell me (and me only) if I brake cc.

 

Information like this but private, not public.

[ocping]

I'd be happy if they can add a recount-ish thing in, but first, they have a mountain of bugs to fix since this game is obviously in paid-beta.

[Dazgra]

This.

 

If the content is forgiving then addons aren't really needed. Example:

 

If DPS can pull aggro from the boss and survive a few hits then I can visually just recognize, as the tank, that aggro has been pulled and taunt back. Key here is visually.

 

If DPS pulls aggro and gets instagibbed then a threat meter would be nice to have. DPS can meter out dps appropriately so they don't overtake tank on table and the tank can see where folks are on threat table and take action proactively as needed.

 

Edit: I know this about recount but the same goes for beating enrage timers or checking up on healers that overheal, etc, etc, etc.

 

 

^^ this guy knows whats up

[shazzyrm]

No I don't support an ingame Recount because the game simply does not need it. There is more RPG in this mmo and it's nice not having to worry about if my dps will be high or not to enjoy the story line.

[dtim]

Recount is an addon i like to use in WoW to get an idea of my own DPS and if its improving or not as i get new gear. I'd never use it as a reason to kick someone from a party, but thats just me. So i wouldnt mind ToR having an equivalent system available.

 

This is what I use Recount for in WoW as well. I would be perfectly happy with a meter that only showed my damage/dps and some sort of target number for my level. That target could be something programmed by the developers or an average calculated based on the data gathered from everyone playing.

[Uruare]

I'm still gonna hope that Bioware is smarter than to try to out-raidgame WoW. If they allow super-advanced modding, the 'bleeding edge' folks will be crying constantly about things being too easy unless every flashpoint and operation becomes so hard-tuned that the use of such mods becomes a basic requirement just to function in them.

 

 

Tail wagging the dog, as has been observed. Moreover, trying to compete with every other bedeviled MMO that's trying to be Super Raidgame 9000 will put them squarely in a shadow I, for one, wouldn't advise them to aspire to, being WoW's.

 

Don't try to Out-raidgame WoW. The past decade is littered with the MMO-corpses of those that have tried and failed, and even those things that find a niche and lurk in it do so in comparatively meager fashions.

 

TOR has an IP, fanbase and approach that I think could very well be as successful as WoW...by not being WoW. Some things are similar; some things should be. A certain degree of lesson-taking and feature/function/gameplay emulation is good.

 

 

If they focus on what nothing but TOR is currently capable of doing just by doing more of what it's doing, being delivering challenging -enough- gameplay in an immersively delivered Star Wars environment, I'd predict that they'll be eating cake in 12-24 months.

 

All these mods people keep asking for...yeah, they've got valid applications.

 

In a hardline raid game.

 

Really wanna turn this into WoW with laser swords? I don't. If they do go the route of turning this into Yet Another Raidgame, where it's all about your fekken endgame progression and whatever surrogate is standing in with your gearscore and your TOR-equivalent of Deadly Boss Mods and Recount and Healer/DPS/Tank macro tools...I'll just go back to playing WoW.

 

Primary reason? WoW's been doing it a lot longer, has focused on polishing its raidgame experience for years, is well set in being what it is and isn't the Crown-Wearing MMO because that's -all- it does well.

 

It's easy to play, its polished, its massive, it's got a great setting and vibrantly rich lore for those concerned with the 'RPG' part of MMORPG and its got a toweringly prolific head start on working out all its kinks.

 

All you want is another raidgame and don't much care if you're shooting lightning and waving laser swords or shooting fireballs and waving Elementium Deathblades? Go. Back. To WoW.

 

Please, just shuffle back over there and do your thing. This isn't the game you're looking for, and if you collectively donkeypunch the devs sufficiently to somehow get them to steer it into trying to be the game you wish you were playing, being WoW, they're not going to do it as well as WoW does and will continue doing into the forseable future.

 

How can I say so with such certainty? Same way I can say that an airplane can out-fly a lambourghini; one's made, engineered, designed from the ground up to fly.

 

The other, you'd have to really mess with to get airborne, and you'd be stupid to try to make it do that.

 

TOR's got a lot of potential in the direction it's set for itself. And maybe some of you ought to change your own direction to appreciate -their- direction just a little bit more before you start trying to set the drapes on fire because your toolbox of crutches got left back in WoW.

 

They're still there for you in the game you clearly wish you were playing.

 

So, there's my two cents.

[Narij]

I want a version of recount, not so I can see my DPS, but so I can see why my CC broke.

 

1) did ability delay strike again?

2) did the target have a DoT on them?

3) did the target trinket(pvp) my CC

4) do I not have enough accuracy?

5) did I just not hit the ability on a timely matter.

 

I want to improve my play in this game, but when I don't have the tools I don't know how to adjust.

[Holybubble]

People saying recount killed WoW have no idea what they are talking about. Before recount there was damage meters and that was soon after release. WoW hit it's peak in Burning Crusade mods and all, so no recount did not negatively affect the player base if anything it was a reason for success.

 

Like it or not WoW has dictated the style of modern MMO's, and it was because of mods that the game evolved to be what it is. The newest content designed to challenge a group to the breaking point is only possible when everyone is performing to the maximum of their capacity. To learn what exactly that is we need the proper tools to do so. No it didn't matter in MC because fights weren't about performance they were about mechanics, there is a difference.

 

If you have no interest in learning how to properly play your class to at least a portion of it's potential you have no business in raids or even groups. Do you want someone on your football team who can't run? I doubt you do.

 

Now the backlash of it all. MMOs are held under a microscope, classes must have a relative balance to one another. The mathmasters WILL crown a tank healer and dps as king and the juggling will begin. There is no avoiding this, it is now expected by the millions of people in this generation of MMO.

 

Now if you don't mind living in ignorance of your classes disablity, then I dare say you are the minority. But information is always valuable. Why you would want to handicap yourself and the games evolution is beyond me. If they hope to achieve a longterm player base this is one of the many requirements to do so.

[Hairless]

No, he is saying that Bioware can go down two paths

 

- Hardcore content which is very difficult and needs analysis tools such as recount to defeat it

 

- Casual content in which player performance isn't as critical and in which recount is only for bragging rights

 

Except, BW/EA won't go down any of those paths. rofl.

What about medium content? combination content?

Why would BW/EA limit their audience to just one extreme? I know it might be hard to believe but they want to make as much money as possible.

 

And where do you draw the line when you make the game so easy that no kind of analysis is ever needed to be successful?

Did you ever think about the fact that people will just start 8 manning 16 man operations to get more loot if the game is so easy?

Things like that will happen.

 

Besides, I don't think there are many people out there that are willing to pay a subscription to play a game that doesn't provide any satisfaction of overcoming a challenge. Might as well play Maple story, and it's free.

[PjPablo]

I'm still gonna hope that Bioware is smarter than to try to out-raidgame WoW. If they allow super-advanced modding, the 'bleeding edge' folks will be crying constantly about things being too easy unless every flashpoint and operation becomes so hard-tuned that the use of such mods becomes a basic requirement just to function in them.

 

 

Tail wagging the dog, as has been observed. Moreover, trying to compete with every other bedeviled MMO that's trying to be Super Raidgame 9000 will put them squarely in a shadow I, for one, wouldn't advise them to aspire to, being WoW's.

 

Don't try to Out-raidgame WoW. The past decade is littered with the MMO-corpses of those that have tried and failed, and even those things that find a niche and lurk in it do so in comparatively meager fashions.

 

TOR has an IP, fanbase and approach that I think could very well be as successful as WoW...by not being WoW. Some things are similar; some things should be. A certain degree of lesson-taking and feature/function/gameplay emulation is good.

 

 

If they focus on what nothing but TOR is currently capable of doing just by doing more of what it's doing, being delivering challenging -enough- gameplay in an immersively delivered Star Wars environment, I'd predict that they'll be eating cake in 12-24 months.

 

All these mods people keep asking for...yeah, they've got valid applications.

 

In a hardline raid game.

 

Really wanna turn this into WoW with laser swords? I don't. If they do go the route of turning this into Yet Another Raidgame, where it's all about your fekken endgame progression and whatever surrogate is standing in with your gearscore and your TOR-equivalent of Deadly Boss Mods and Recount and Healer/DPS/Tank macro tools...I'll just go back to playing WoW.

 

Primary reason? WoW's been doing it a lot longer, has focused on polishing its raidgame experience for years, is well set in being what it is and isn't the Crown-Wearing MMO because that's -all- it does well.

 

It's easy to play, its polished, its massive, it's got a great setting and vibrantly rich lore for those concerned with the 'RPG' part of MMORPG and its got a toweringly prolific head start on working out all its kinks.

 

All you want is another raidgame and don't much care if you're shooting lightning and waving laser swords or shooting fireballs and waving Elementium Deathblades? Go. Back. To WoW.

 

Please, just shuffle back over there and do your thing. This isn't the game you're looking for, and if you collectively donkeypunch the devs sufficiently to somehow get them to steer it into trying to be the game you wish you were playing, being WoW, they're not going to do it as well as WoW does and will continue doing into the forseable future.

 

How can I say so with such certainty? Same way I can say that an airplane can out-fly a lambourghini; one's made, engineered, designed from the ground up to fly.

 

The other, you'd have to really mess with to get airborne, and you'd be stupid to try to make it do that.

 

TOR's got a lot of potential in the direction it's set for itself. And maybe some of you ought to change your own direction to appreciate -their- direction just a little bit more before you start trying to set the drapes on fire because your toolbox of crutches got left back in WoW.

 

They're still there for you in the game you clearly wish you were playing.

 

So, there's my two cents.

 

Who's to say you can't have both a story driven line that attract the folks that don't like to raid bleeding edge content AS WELL AS have the bleeding edge content in game? Seems like that would serve both markets, no?

 

My own opinion here is I remain skeptical of an MMO keeping customers long term if the focus is on story alone. The quests are nice and the class stories are interesting but when you sit at max level what will you do? Reroll to see another story? Some will, some won't.

 

I say have it both ways. That is what will make the game successful in the long run.

 

For those that don't want to raid then addons wouldn't be needed and they can ignore them.

[Dazgra]

wall o text

 

Ok well what is it that will keep players playing and paying month after month if not endgame content?

[AlpsStranger]

I'm still gonna hope that Bioware is smarter than to try to out-raidgame WoW. If they allow super-advanced modding, the 'bleeding edge' folks will be crying constantly about things being too easy unless every flashpoint and operation becomes so hard-tuned that the use of such mods becomes a basic requirement just to function in them.

 

 

Tail wagging the dog, as has been observed. Moreover, trying to compete with every other bedeviled MMO that's trying to be Super Raidgame 9000 will put them squarely in a shadow I, for one, wouldn't advise them to aspire to, being WoW's.

 

Don't try to Out-raidgame WoW. The past decade is littered with the MMO-corpses of those that have tried and failed, and even those things that find a niche and lurk in it do so in comparatively meager fashions.

 

TOR has an IP, fanbase and approach that I think could very well be as successful as WoW...by not being WoW. Some things are similar; some things should be. A certain degree of lesson-taking and feature/function/gameplay emulation is good.

 

 

If they focus on what nothing but TOR is currently capable of doing just by doing more of what it's doing, being delivering challenging -enough- gameplay in an immersively delivered Star Wars environment, I'd predict that they'll be eating cake in 12-24 months.

 

All these mods people keep asking for...yeah, they've got valid applications.

 

In a hardline raid game.

 

Really wanna turn this into WoW with laser swords? I don't. If they do go the route of turning this into Yet Another Raidgame, where it's all about your fekken endgame progression and whatever surrogate is standing in with your gearscore and your TOR-equivalent of Deadly Boss Mods and Recount and Healer/DPS/Tank macro tools...I'll just go back to playing WoW.

 

Primary reason? WoW's been doing it a lot longer, has focused on polishing its raidgame experience for years, is well set in being what it is and isn't the Crown-Wearing MMO because that's -all- it does well.

 

It's easy to play, its polished, its massive, it's got a great setting and vibrantly rich lore for those concerned with the 'RPG' part of MMORPG and its got a toweringly prolific head start on working out all its kinks.

 

All you want is another raidgame and don't much care if you're shooting lightning and waving laser swords or shooting fireballs and waving Elementium Deathblades? Go. Back. To WoW.

 

Please, just shuffle back over there and do your thing. This isn't the game you're looking for, and if you collectively donkeypunch the devs sufficiently to somehow get them to steer it into trying to be the game you wish you were playing, being WoW, they're not going to do it as well as WoW does and will continue doing into the forseable future.

 

How can I say so with such certainty? Same way I can say that an airplane can out-fly a lambourghini; one's made, engineered, designed from the ground up to fly.

 

The other, you'd have to really mess with to get airborne, and you'd be stupid to try to make it do that.

 

TOR's got a lot of potential in the direction it's set for itself. And maybe some of you ought to change your own direction to appreciate -their- direction just a little bit more before you start trying to set the drapes on fire because your toolbox of crutches got left back in WoW.

 

They're still there for you in the game you clearly wish you were playing.

 

So, there's my two cents.

 

Complete nonsense. You want this to be "alt-itis online." That would fail even harder in the long run than "Raidgame 9000."

 

Ok well what is it that will keep players playing and paying month after month if not endgame content?

 

Players like this don't have an answer. They're delusional. If the game had a fundamentally non-WoW design (EVE, Ultima Online, etc) then they might have a point. They just want to make it into a ****** alt-mongering game with no objective theorycrafting.

Edited January 8, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[dargor-]

Just add Addons and be done.

[PjPablo]

Complete nonsense. You want this to be "alt-itis online." That would fail even harder in the long run than "Raidgame 9000."

 

Actually 'The Alt Republic' has more panache.

[Dazgra]

Complete nonsense. You want this to be "alt-itis online." That would fail even harder in the long run than "Raidgame 9000."

 

 

 

Players like this don't have an answer. They're delusional. If the game had a fundamentally non-WoW design (EVE, Ultima Online, etc) then they might have a point. They just want to make it into a ****** alt-mongering game with no objective theorycrafting.

 

Your post is wise

[knightblaster]

I'm still gonna hope that Bioware is smarter than to try to out-raidgame WoW. If they allow super-advanced modding, the 'bleeding edge' folks will be crying constantly about things being too easy unless every flashpoint and operation becomes so hard-tuned that the use of such mods becomes a basic requirement just to function in them.

 

 

Tail wagging the dog, as has been observed. Moreover, trying to compete with every other bedeviled MMO that's trying to be Super Raidgame 9000 will put them squarely in a shadow I, for one, wouldn't advise them to aspire to, being WoW's.

 

Don't try to Out-raidgame WoW. The past decade is littered with the MMO-corpses of those that have tried and failed, and even those things that find a niche and lurk in it do so in comparatively meager fashions.

 

TOR has an IP, fanbase and approach that I think could very well be as successful as WoW...by not being WoW. Some things are similar; some things should be. A certain degree of lesson-taking and feature/function/gameplay emulation is good.

 

 

If they focus on what nothing but TOR is currently capable of doing just by doing more of what it's doing, being delivering challenging -enough- gameplay in an immersively delivered Star Wars environment, I'd predict that they'll be eating cake in 12-24 months.

 

All these mods people keep asking for...yeah, they've got valid applications.

 

In a hardline raid game.

 

Really wanna turn this into WoW with laser swords? I don't. If they do go the route of turning this into Yet Another Raidgame, where it's all about your fekken endgame progression and whatever surrogate is standing in with your gearscore and your TOR-equivalent of Deadly Boss Mods and Recount and Healer/DPS/Tank macro tools...I'll just go back to playing WoW.

 

Primary reason? WoW's been doing it a lot longer, has focused on polishing its raidgame experience for years, is well set in being what it is and isn't the Crown-Wearing MMO because that's -all- it does well.

 

It's easy to play, its polished, its massive, it's got a great setting and vibrantly rich lore for those concerned with the 'RPG' part of MMORPG and its got a toweringly prolific head start on working out all its kinks.

 

All you want is another raidgame and don't much care if you're shooting lightning and waving laser swords or shooting fireballs and waving Elementium Deathblades? Go. Back. To WoW.

 

Please, just shuffle back over there and do your thing. This isn't the game you're looking for, and if you collectively donkeypunch the devs sufficiently to somehow get them to steer it into trying to be the game you wish you were playing, being WoW, they're not going to do it as well as WoW does and will continue doing into the forseable future.

 

How can I say so with such certainty? Same way I can say that an airplane can out-fly a lambourghini; one's made, engineered, designed from the ground up to fly.

 

The other, you'd have to really mess with to get airborne, and you'd be stupid to try to make it do that.

 

TOR's got a lot of potential in the direction it's set for itself. And maybe some of you ought to change your own direction to appreciate -their- direction just a little bit more before you start trying to set the drapes on fire because your toolbox of crutches got left back in WoW.

 

They're still there for you in the game you clearly wish you were playing.

 

So, there's my two cents.

 

This is basically correct.

 

The game will have a moderate success, either way. It can't compete with WoW, even if it becomes RaidGame9000 -- it can't do it as well as Blizzard did/does it. It's smarter to do things a bit differently. Either way, however, the success level is capped. There isn't going to be a game that "beats WoW" either by being like WoW or by being unlike WoW. WoW has a structural advantage in the market that is impossible for a new entrant to overcome.

[Dazgra]

If they wanted to do things differently they shouldn't have make WOW in space, now they're locked into a WOW game play model where endgame content is what people will log on for.

[AlpsStranger]

because your toolbox of crutches got left back in WoW.

 

I love how you can't stop insulting people who want UI mods even when you decide to pretend to be the voice of reason.

 

Buckle up, cupcake. They stole 99% of their gameplay from WoW. I seriously doubt they're stopping short of UI Mods in the long run. They aren't adding more cantina dances or alternate low level content in that first big update, they're adding raids.

 

Welcome to WoW with lightsabers.

Edited January 8, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[PjPablo]

I love how you can't stop insulting people who want UI mods even when you decide to pretend to be the voice of reason.

 

As much as I wish it was not the case it just seems to me that most of the people against mods/addons just don't want to be held to any standard of play in game. They want to do what they want to do despite the fact that they are in a group with others who might just want to do well. As soon as you join a group the focus moves away from you to the group and if they expect you to play at a certain level then you need to play at that level or find someone else to play with.

[Warjhinn]

no!!!

 

I watched Recount and gearscore wreck raiding in WoW.

 

If you are using crowd control and inturrupts, or just plain trying to learn the fight, it might take a couple times to get it right and pick up your damage.

 

The whole, "you can't raid until you have done the raid and know it", combined with "Dude, you have to pull xxxx damage to do this, you only pulled 99% of that last fight, /kick" thing is just rediculous.

 

We use these add-ons as a crutch and forget that we did it the first time in greens and blues and doing only a percentage of the "Ideal DPS/Gear Rating". I absolutely detest those add-ons.

[Javrak]

I propose this. An activity meter. It won't register your basic attack, or maybe record it separate. Perhaps it will even give a listing of what abilities you used. This way people can see if you were attempting to accomplish your role or not. For those who really want to sit down and number crunch and come up with rotations, the activity meter and a stop watch can be used to gauge a rotation. Hell, maybe even ad ad in a combat start and combat ends timer to it.

 

I'm so sick of helping a friend by running something I'm overgeared for, and somebody wants to harp on them for not being overgeared. It's truly sickening behavior. This primarily caused me to lose all interest in WOW, as I realized just how terrible the community at large was. It's not like their numbers were low either. I remember quite a few times what numbers looked like the first time clearing content. People would bash others for running higher than the initial clear numbers.

 

It's like firing someone for doing the job better than the guy who held the position a year ago. Makes no sense, especially when everyone else is not struggling at all. So what if they are being carried a little because their gear sucks? Gotta start somewhere. Make a friend and later when their gear doesn't suck, you will have an awesome person to run with.

 

If they fail hard on the activity meter or are just spamming the same thing over and over again, you can earnestly say they are not trying(unless of course their class benefits most from spamming a singular ability). If they are just spamming base attack it will report that too, for melee tanks they need it for rage, so it's possible you may see a lot of base attack spam.

 

Now for gauging gear upgrades, I do see where this fails. It's hard to tell if that 5% crit works better than that 200 power. This is the ONLY legitimate reason for wanting a DPS meter. Crunching minimal number gains to see what works best for your class/spec. I personally don't think it's worth the drama, especially with what I've heard of the state of the endgame raiding at present.

[Dazgra]

As much as I wish it was not the case it just seems to me that most of the people against mods/addons just don't want to be held to any standard of play in game. They want to do what they want to do despite the fact that they are in a group with others who might just want to do well. As soon as you join a group the focus moves away from you to the group and if they expect you to play at a certain level then you need to play at that level or find someone else to play with.

 

Couldn't agree with you more, if you want to spend your $15 a month playing however you want, fine, that's your business

 

But when you're wasting the $200 of the other players in your ops group then it's their business and you need to either a) step up your game b) join like-minded players who don't care about progressing through content or c) don't bother with the challenging content

[TheHauntingBard]

As much as I wish it was not the case it just seems to me that most of the people against mods/addons just don't want to be held to any standard of play in game. They want to do what they want to do despite the fact that they are in a group with others who might just want to do well. As soon as you join a group the focus moves away from you to the group and if they expect you to play at a certain level then you need to play at that level or find someone else to play with.

 

Operations/flash points are group focused.

Doing what ever you want in a group is not being social or kind, you're being selfish.

 

Besides the anti add on people on these forums are the worst elites I've ever seen in any MMO.

It makes high end raiders look like civilized humble people.

[AlpsStranger]

As much as I wish it was not the case it just seems to me that most of the people against mods/addons just don't want to be held to any standard of play in game. They want to do what they want to do despite the fact that they are in a group with others who might just want to do well. As soon as you join a group the focus moves away from you to the group and if they expect you to play at a certain level then you need to play at that level or find someone else to play with.

 

My favorite part is the part where they play a blatant WoW clone and advocate for not making the game like WoW. It's kinda too late for that. Now it can be either a ****** WoW clone or a good WoW clone.

 

Honestly, if it can do the WoW thing about 75% as well as WoW itself it can make up the gap with the Star Wars IP. My feeling is that they should go full steam ahead "Raidgame 9000" WoW clone and use the IP to make up the slack. Certain people ( me included ) will play a slightly crappier WoW just because it is Star Wars. So cloning could actually work quite well for them. They can only fall so far short of WoW though. Not having any combat logging, for instance, puts them below the line.

[Dazgra]

no!!!

 

I watched Recount and gearscore wreck raiding in WoW.

 

If you are using crowd control and inturrupts, or just plain trying to learn the fight, it might take a couple times to get it right and pick up your damage.

 

The whole, "you can't raid until you have done the raid and know it", combined with "Dude, you have to pull xxxx damage to do this, you only pulled 99% of that last fight, /kick" thing is just rediculous.

 

We use these add-ons as a crutch and forget that we did it the first time in greens and blues and doing only a percentage of the "Ideal DPS/Gear Rating". I absolutely detest those add-ons.

 

Please explain to me how an addon which analyses your playing and does nothing but provide with information is a 'crutch'