Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Colobulous]

What I want, and where the divide is between you and those you are arguing against, is for players to stop seeking quick measures of other players and actually make their decisions on who is enjoyable to play with on terms beyond how much DPS they offer.

 

Yeah, here's the thing, the two are not incompatible for me, in fact, I choose to associate with people who want to perform well when it comes to completing challenges while when it comes to other things, I tend to seek out, well, people who are good at those other things.

 

Sometimes they aren't the same people. I accept that.

 

Some players are here to play out a story and not just a math problem so they don't want to the stats brought into the foreground of their experience. If a player does not share your view of the game and won't offer you the "accurate" number you want, you should probably both move on since you don't mix particularly well anyway. Frankly, if someone is going to bring up the pressure and demand a number, they should expect lacking info.

 

If you're here to just RP a story, then you would probably want to consider that the game was not made for you to complete all content with that attitude. There are plenty of ways you can have fun with RP in a game.

 

You can't do it in a boss encounter designed explicitly around game mechanics. And yes, somebody who doesn't want to work with those game mechanics is somebody I don't want to mix with when it comes to those encounters.

 

But why should somebody not get the information they need for a group to complete an encounter? That seems very self-centered to me.

 

Yeah, dealing with people socially can take more time but, I'd rather deal with people on a fuller picture of how it is to play with them as opposed to whether they meet or exceed some fairly abitrary number in the head of the party leader.

 

Except the numbers aren't arbitrary, but reflect real decisions made by the developers as to content difficulty.

 

Pardon me for making decisions based on completion of that content on the factors the developers implemented when designing the encounter.

 

And you know what takes longer? Helping somebody, not just writing them off. I do that, and I consider it part of the social gaming experience. Working with the game mechanics, strange, huh?

 

*For the record, I would probably respond that, "I don't pay attention or use the recount measures so I don't make them available. I'll do my best with the skills and gear I have to make our group a success."

 

And I'd say...yeah, so what is your best? Oh, you don't want to say?

 

Then why would I want to associate with somebody that anti-social?

 

And yes, not wanting to say how you perform is anti-social, especially with folks who want to limit access to that knowledge.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Colobulous

[Colobulous]

I support the idea of a damage parser that is for the player's own viewing with no option to share (except tell the truth or lie to a party member) the readings.

 

Why? What good do you think that would do? Do you want to foster a sense of distrust in the game?

 

I believe that the cons beat the pro's, as simple as that. It's a tool that can be used in a way that makes the ToR community as hostile and anal about irrelevant things as WoW. ToR has completely different mechanics.

 

Completely? Completely? Why do people expect others to believe claims like this?

 

For an example, I appreciate a good CC and supporter in ToR a lot. This can not be measured with damage parsers, nor can the reaction speed to changing situations.

 

CC can be measured with a combat log parser, as can reaction time, if the log has support for it. No reason it shouldn't.

 

I do not wish to make this game another theorycraft playground for it has no need for it.

 

Actually, every game needs a lot of it, it keeps the game fair and balanced. Otherwise people will be breaking it, because it won't be set up properly.

 

I simply do not wish for any kind of tool that let's either the game or another player play the game for me by theorycraft rules.

 

They don't need a tool for that. They just need to understand the game mechanics, which is a pretty strong foundation of any computer game, and real life for that matter.

 

You aren't going to escape math, people use it for any endeavor you can name.

[PsyloSatan]

Some players are here to play out a story and not just a math problem so they don't want to the stats brought into the foreground of their experience. If a player does not share your view of the game and won't offer you the "accurate" number you want, you should probably both move on since you don't mix particularly well anyway. Frankly, if someone is going to bring up the pressure and demand a number, they should expect lacking info.[/i]

 

I keep seeing a few people say this but this is what it means to me, correct me if Im wrong:

 

"I want to play a game made out of and based on numbers but I dont want to deal with numbers."

 

 

What am I missing?

 

"Study your math kids. Key to the universe."

Edited December 14, 2011 by PsyloSatan

[Matte_Black]

Yeah, here's the thing, the two are not incompatible for me, in fact, I choose to associate with people who want to perform well when it comes to completing challenges while when it comes to other things, I tend to seek out, well, people who are good at those other things.

 

Sometimes they aren't the same people. I accept that.

 

If you're here to just RP a story, then you would probably want to consider that the game was not made for you to complete all content with that attitude. There are plenty of ways you can have fun with RP in a game.

 

You can't do it in a boss encounter designed explicitly around game mechanics. And yes, somebody who doesn't want to work with those game mechanics is somebody I don't want to mix with when it comes to those encounters.

 

But why should somebody not get the information they need for a group to complete an encounter? That seems very self-centered to me.

 

Except the numbers aren't arbitrary, but reflect real decisions made by the developers as to content difficulty.

 

Pardon me for making decisions based on completion of that content on the factors the developers implemented when designing the encounter.

 

And you know what takes longer? Helping somebody, not just writing them off. I do that, and I consider it part of the social gaming experience. Working with the game mechanics, strange, huh?

 

Here's the thing, the game has not proven it is so difficult as to require the extra-level of performance derived by such feedback. The difficulties do not require optimization as far as I have seen from beta. As long as players are trying to cooperate and contribute, all strategy can be described the general unmeasured or roughly measured terms. That's where they have set the bar. We can see for ourselves if players are doing what is needed without exact measure or quantifying one another.

 

And I'd say...yeah, so what is your best? Oh, you don't want to say?

 

Then why would I want to associate with somebody that anti-social?

 

And yes, not wanting to say how you perform is anti-social, especially with folks who want to limit access to that knowledge.

 

You can disagree with others, keep information private and decide not to work together with out being "anti-social". In fact working out such things effectively and functionally is perfectly social. Anti-social would be attempting replace such interaction with arbitrary measures so you don't have to be social. I can see where Recount could be a decent personal feedback tool but, alot of people use it as a social cop-out and that is why many dislike such devices.

[Matte_Black]

I keep seeing a few people say this but this is what it means to me, correct me if Im wrong:

 

"I want to play a game made out of and based on numbers but I dont want to deal with numbers."

 

 

What am I missing?

 

"Study your math kids. Key to the universe."

 

The game relies on some level of math but, was designed to make the player aware of only so much of it. Adding recount tips that intended balance of the focus from the virtual reality and story going on toward the RNGs and mechanics that were designed to run in the background.

 

People will vary on how much they like so an individual measure might work fine but, when those numbers begin to creep into the social dynamics of the game, it's not something that can just be turned off or ignored. This game does not include a Recount-like feature and adding one would very much change the play experience for some.

[Maydayre]

Why? What good do you think that would do? Do you want to foster a sense of distrust in the game?

 

If that's how you wish to read it, then yes. I see no greater evil in this than being a jerk about theorycraft. Same cup of noodles, just from a different perspective. Since I have experienced the former, I'd give the other a go. This is a personal opinion, not meant to be stated as a fact.

 

Completely? Completely? Why do people expect others to believe claims like this?

 

Ever heard the phrase "like devil reads the bible"? I do see it very different. 'Completely' might have been a too strong a word, but it wasn't the point of the paragraph either. The game feels very different because the strategic elements are there early on and I enjoy the challenge. It's not only a spoof claim either (for me at least), so let's discuss this; WoW is pretty much centered in three different roles; a tank, a healer and a dps. EVERY single DPS class uses recount. Most tanks and healers too, although from my personal experience it's actually used as a comparative tool, not as competitive on those two roles. My bried time in ToR has proven ME that the classes are versatile well beyond this and focusing on DPS alone in ToR groups (on certain occasions, not all, mind you) has proven to be ineffective and plain stupid playing. All the confrontations I had, were solved with planning and executing multitasks. The fights had much less to do with DPS than WoW. Hence, I consider it completely different.

 

CC can be measured with a combat log parser, as can reaction time, if the log has support for it. No reason it shouldn't.

 

Yep, but I do not need a tool to do it for me, I can see it on my screen as it's happening. Making it a math stat makes it less enjoyable. But that's just me probably.

 

Actually, every game needs a lot of it, it keeps the game fair and balanced. Otherwise people will be breaking it, because it won't be set up properly.

 

I COMPLETELY disagree on this point. WoW might have been the most popular but there is no chance in the world I would ever consider it to be the best MMORPG out there. None of the better ones have ever had the need. This goes to the personal preference folder though, and this thread was about "Do YOU support, why yes/no?" Not trying to claim I'm more right than anyone else.

 

They don't need a tool for that. They just need to understand the game mechanics, which is a pretty strong foundation of any computer game, and real life for that matter.

 

This is not real life. This is not your work. This is a virtual environment that some of us call a hobby. Applying real life to your game usually makes it more of a work where you wish to perform instead of play. In the next ten years or so, none of this will be there. It has got nothing to do with real life except the time consumption. And let's face it, everyone has different things that make them enjoy their time. There is already a great theorycraft game, called World of Warcraft. I just don't see why we need another one. I've never wanted to break the AD&D rolls in the game engine down, for it would have destroyed my immersion in all the stories I've loved in BG, IWD, DA etc. Learning the concrete effects can be done without micromanaging the mechanics behind the engine. And unlike WoW, ToR actually has a story. The immersion > theorycraft. I guess that's what it boils down to.

 

You aren't going to escape math, people use it for any endeavor you can name.

 

Oh I do not wish to escape. I just don't apply it to every single thing that I do because most of the time it's boring. And I play with numbers for a living, I'd rather not do that on my spare time.

 

Thank you for the thought provokes. Always willing to discuss views.

[mastersloup]

Recount would not be needed if boss fight was about strat, position, mechanic and stuff instead of OMG KILL IT BEFORE ENRAGE!!

 

In game like wow where dps is the only thing that matter, recount is pretty much a must at this point. i don't know much about SWTOR "raid" or flashpoint

Edited December 14, 2011 by mastersloup

[Colobulous]

Here's the thing, the game has not proven it is so difficult as to require the extra-level of performance derived by such feedback. The difficulties do not require optimization as far as I have seen from beta.

 

First off, let me suggest that instead of putting your words inside mine directly, you use a close quote tag for my words, then open up with yours, then put the next section in a quoted section, using another set of tags, or the selection tool and the "quote" option.

 

But you may think that the game isn't going to be difficult, but me? I think that'd be a recipe for a game that quickly failed, and does not reflect the actuality of the game which does have difficulty modes included...for a reason.

 

As long as players are trying to cooperate and contribute, all strategy can be described the general unmeasured or roughly measured terms. That's where they have set the bar. We can see for ourselves if players are doing what is needed without exact measure or quantifying one another.

 

You might be confident of your ability to observe that. I am not. Nor am I confident that somebody trying is actually doing, I wouldn't even necessarily be confident than they are actually trying.

 

You can disagree with others, keep information private and decide not to work together with out being "anti-social". In fact working out such things effectively and functionally is perfectly social. Anti-social would be attempting replace such interaction with arbitrary measures so you don't have to be social. I can see where Recount could be a decent personal feedback tool but, alot of people use it as a social cop-out and that is why many dislike such devices.

 

I'm going to ask you to stop claiming it's arbitrary to make the decision to make content difficult based on game mechanics and performance, because...that's really not an accurate description at all. The difficulty for it to be an actual challenge is based on genuine intended mechanics, and while the numbers are themselves arbitrary in terms of scale, it's still a purposeful and deliberate decision, and not at all the way you keep trying to represent it. That's just a cop-out of your own, not a real criticism. Or are you going to give any justification for your repeated declarations of the arbitrariness of combat mechanics?

 

And disagreeing with others, and not wanting to work with people in a group encounter is...pretty much anti-social in my book. You don't have to want to do that kind of thing, but if you are, and you resentfully declare you aren't going to work with people...yeah, sorry, anti-social it is. And yes, trying to get others to ignore actual game mechanics is not working with them at all.

 

It's trying to ignore the game.

[Colobulous]

If that's how you wish to read it, then yes. I see no greater evil in this than being a jerk about theorycraft. Same cup of noodles, just from a different perspective. Since I have experienced the former, I'd give the other a go. This is a personal opinion, not meant to be stated as a fact.

 

Except a person doesn't have to be a jerk about theorycrafting. They can actually have a genuine intention.

 

Somebody who chooses to lie about their performance...no, sorry, not better. I have experienced that, and I find it very detrimental.

 

Ever heard the phrase "like devil reads the bible"?

 

Ever heard of "how the devil writes the bible?" It's with a lot of hyperbole.

 

I do see it very different. 'Completely' might have been a too strong a word, but it wasn't the point of the paragraph either.

 

Then moderate your words in the future. I'll be fine with that. But say something that doesn't even bear up to a whiff of scrutiny, which you don't even consider the point of what you said...please spare me from it.

 

The game feels very different because the strategic elements are there early on and I enjoy the challenge.

 

Feels the same to me.

 

It's not only a spoof claim either (for me at least), so let's discuss this; WoW is pretty much centered in three different roles; a tank, a healer and a dps.

 

And it turns out...so is this game. Trinity system, look it up.

 

EVERY single DPS class uses recount. Most tanks and healers too, although from my personal experience it's actually used as a comparative tool, not as competitive on those two roles. My bried time in ToR has proven ME that the classes are versatile well beyond this and focusing on DPS alone in ToR groups (on certain occasions, not all, mind you) has proven to be ineffective and plain stupid playing. All the confrontations I had, were solved with planning and executing multitasks. The fights had much less to do with DPS than WoW. Hence, I consider it completely different.

 

I found it quite the opposite, that there was even less non-DPS activity than in WOW. No CC, no utility, no defense, just the same zerg rush others expect from WOW.

 

I'm hoping at high levels, that that changes. Of course, for that to happen, things will have to be more difficult, so...it'll contradict with what somebody else just got done saying.

 

Go figure.

 

Yep, but I do not need a tool to do it for me, I can see it on my screen as it's happening. Making it a math stat makes it less enjoyable. But that's just me probably.

 

What can I say? Sometimes I don't see everything on the screen. Go figure. I'd rather have a combat log, TYVM.

 

I COMPLETELY disagree on this point. WoW might have been the most popular but there is no chance in the world I would ever consider it to be the best MMORPG out there. None of the better ones have ever had the need. This goes to the personal preference folder though, and this thread was about "Do YOU support, why yes/no?" Not trying to claim I'm more right than anyone else.

 

Well, you're wrong with your understanding about what I said. I made no comment about WoW in that remark, and I've actually said, where appropriate, that I find the developer's work in design and theorycrafting in WOW to be poor and flawed. However that isn't here, so I didn't say what I thought on it.

 

I don't know where you got your idea about what I said, but wherever it was, it was wrong.

 

I was talking about design in general, and did not give WoW as an example at all. Try examining my words as they are, not as you misinterpreted them to be.

 

This is not real life.

 

Yes, it is. It's not a hallucination at all.

 

This is not your work. This is a virtual environment that some of us call a hobby. Applying real life to your game usually makes it more of a work where you wish to perform instead of play.

 

My idea of playing includes performing sometimes. So does that of other people.

 

If yours doesn't...fair enough, but your ideas may not be compatible with mine.

 

In the next ten years or so, none of this will be there. It has got nothing to do with real life except the time consumption.

 

And the reality that models are developed around it, and they involve math.

 

And let's face it, everyone has different things that make them enjoy their time.

 

You seem to have a problem accepting my enjoyment may not be compatible with yours.

 

There is already a great theorycraft game, called World of Warcraft. I just don't see why we need another one. I've never wanted to break the AD&D rolls in the game engine down, for it would have destroyed my immersion in all the stories I've loved in BG, IWD, DA etc. Learning the concrete effects can be done without micromanaging the mechanics behind the engine. And unlike WoW, ToR actually has a story. The immersion > theorycraft. I guess that's what it boils down to.

 

Yeah, this isn't going to be the blackbox game you're looking for, sorry. And you need to talk less about WOW, it seems far more of a focus to you than it warrants, I find it to be clouding the discussion since you keep referring to it, when I don't.

 

If you want a blackbox game, fair enough, but really, you're not getting that here, so maybe try another thread?

 

Oh I do not wish to escape. I just don't apply it to every single thing that I do because most of the time it's boring. And I play with numbers for a living, I'd rather not do that on my spare time.

 

Then don't hang around with people who do.

 

I won't seek you out and make you do anything.

 

But you want to control me.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Colobulous

[Sernon]

Your comment makes no sense. How does it bring a play style from another game? How does it make it a spreadsheet game? As someone previously stated there is already a combat log so there will be a way to gauge damage. If you do not like it don't use it. All it does is make information that is already there easy to see. Why do you have an issue with making things easier?

 

Running stuff in the background is your business. Asking to put it on the UI is to force others to take it into account, to make your hobby globally intrusive. You can run this stuff in the background just fine in other games, what's up with forcing it into the UI. That's what's wrong with this thread. Pushing stuff into the public domain, thus invading the available space with priorities not easily encountered in other MMO's. Maybe some don't want it, maybe it's not a globally accepted feature to be pushed to the forefront.

 

---

[Baizak]

no, because recount and all other addons that aid raiding are crutches for the weak players out there.

 

Real hardcore gamers do not need meters and parses to down a boss.

[Colobulous]

Maybe some don't want it, maybe it's not a globally accepted feature to be pushed to the forefront.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I was going with the assumption that you would only be seeing that data when you wanted to choose to observe it, or when others wanted to tell you about it.

[Esproc]

no, because recount and all other addons that aid raiding are crutches for the weak players out there.

 

Real hardcore gamers do not need meters and parses to down a boss.

 

Besides, I like doing math which is a forgotten skill.

 

Hey, maybe BW will let you have a companion do it for you.

[Xerda]

I've got past caring tbh. This debate has been done to death. Presumably it will be added at some point as there was some announcement about addons before the forum wipe saying they will be looking to allow them in the future.

[Sernon]

As far as I'm concerned, I was going with the assumption that you would only be seeing that data when you wanted to choose to observe it, or when others wanted to tell you about it.

 

This is not about visibility, this is about exposure. And game policy. The signal effect of anything done in this direction will be huge. And that must be known on some level.

 

---

[Herdsnerfs]

Vent is not required. Recount is not required. You don't need any addons either. You can beat these games without these hold-my-hand tools.

 

That said, they are still fun to use. I like recount, if only to make sure I'm doing my job. As a raid leader, unless someone was super-pathetic, I didn't mind less than stellar dps from some members, as long as we made progression. Most raids don't know how to use it properly anyway. Very few use it for the more useful features, like who got aggro, or how many dispells folks are doing. You could easily see if someone didn't understand what they were supposed to do, and explain it to them.

[copter]

Vent is not required. Recount is not required. You don't need any addons either. You can beat these games without these hold-my-hand tools.

 

That said, they are still fun to use. I like recount, if only to make sure I'm doing my job. As a raid leader, unless someone was super-pathetic, I didn't mind less than stellar dps from some members, as long as we made progression. Most raids don't know how to use it properly anyway. Very few use it for the more useful features, like who got aggro, or how many dispells folks are doing. You could easily see if someone didn't understand what they were supposed to do, and explain it to them.

 

This is the type of raid leader I wouldn't mind having these tools.

 

However, like he/she said, most don't know how to properly use these tools without making the community as a whole suffer.

[Nemmar]

Yes because I want to know if the DPSers are doing 1 ability a minute or doing their job properly.

 

This is an old issue, that i have adressed multiple times.

 

The argument this fella gives us is also flawed. If you play the game, you can tell whos not using their skills. I know that you're such pro players that need DPS meters to do better that you even miss the information on your own UI, even though its a clear yellow bar.

 

We dont need DPS meters, theres more to lose than to gain from them.

 

I support a training room in your ship or your future guild ship, where you hit a/several dummy/ies and you can see your DPS breakdown in a console. Thats all one needs to improve their play.

 

As for wiping on raids... if you cant tell why, then you deserve to wipe till the end of times.

[PsyloSatan]

The game relies on some level of math but, was designed to make the player aware of only so much of it. Adding recount tips that intended balance of the focus from the virtual reality and story going on toward the RNGs and mechanics that were designed to run in the background.

 

People will vary on how much they like so an individual measure might work fine but, when those numbers begin to creep into the social dynamics of the game, it's not something that can just be turned off or ignored. This game does not include a Recount-like feature and adding one would very much change the play experience for some.

 

A good point. But I question the intent. Who is to say how much math is appropriate and why should only some people be satisfied with its availability vs the people who want to do extra work (like raid leading) and should be allowed some extra tools that would help them take the initiative? Just like these forums are with people who arent playing yet, that is the same thing you can expect from raiders if you keep them waiting too long. Waiting is not fun for most people IMO.

[PsyloSatan]

This is an old issue, that i have adressed multiple times.

 

The argument this fella gives us is also flawed. If you play the game, you can tell whos not using their skills. I know that you're such pro players that need DPS meters to do better that you even miss the information on your own UI, even though its a clear yellow bar.

 

We dont need DPS meters, theres more to lose than to gain from them.

 

I support a training room in your ship or your future guild ship, where you hit a/several dummy/ies and you can see your DPS breakdown in a console. Thats all one needs to improve their play.

 

As for wiping on raids... if you cant tell why, then you deserve to wipe till the end of times.

 

Lead a raid or ****.

[Astralfury]

The problem with recount is the same as with any tool, it's *never* the tool at fault, it's the person using it. I played a tank for years in WoW, from doing encounters I could ballpark if an enemy was dying too fast or not without the use of mods, while at the same time I'd encounter players who could not kill anything, and I mean *anything* without spamming recount into chat and picking a fight with someone.

 

So honestly I am indifferent, anything that can make a players life easier is a good thing, the fact that some idiots miss-use things should not be a factor, such people are idiots and will find some way to spoil things with or without an addon.

[Maydayre]

Oh. I didn't actually expect that much hostility from your response, but it does still warrant a reply.

 

Except a person doesn't have to be a jerk about theorycrafting. They can actually have a genuine intention.

 

Somebody who chooses to lie about their performance...no, sorry, not better. I have experienced that, and I find it very detrimental.

 

And I have found it very detrimental that people do not perform well in a group because of a narrow vision of a DPS meter. More as a rule than an exception. But I assume this is the difference in our experiences which leads to the reasons we say yes or no to this question in particular.

 

 

Ever heard of "how the devil writes the bible?" It's with a lot of hyperbole.

 

Later on you will accuse me of reading the convenient parts, when I merely stated from the beginning that you were using the phrases and words to pick that suited your purpose of downgrading a whole argument. As if it was not even worth debate. Which is just fine, I was just pointing it out because I hoped you'd addressed the point itself.

 

Then moderate your words in the future. I'll be fine with that.

 

Oh don't be like that. You're just as much a hypocrite in the same boat. Your sentences are beating around the bushes and serve the purpose of trying to make you look as 'being right' in an argument between opinions. There are no facts to back up the want/need for a parser, only opinions. If you truly disagree with that, then we're both wasting our time here.

 

Feels the same to me too.

 

And it turns out...so is this game. Trinity system, look it up.

 

Contradicting yourself, when the sentences are originally intertwined. See above about the hypocrisy. I am familiar with the trinity system and I do realize it does play a part in this. I was stating my observation of DPS classes having a wider role than just nuking down whatever. The fact that you could pull off Flashpoints and Groups without a tank made me fall in love with the mechanics. I understand you didn't quite have a similar experience from the quote below.

 

I found it quite the opposite, that there was even less non-DPS activity than in WOW. No CC, no utility, no defense, just the same zerg rush others expect from WOW.

 

I do not recognize ToR in this. Which is probably the root of our disagreement.

 

What can I say? Sometimes I don't see everything on the screen. Go figure.

 

Please, no martyrdom or patronizing acts. It makes me feel hostile because I'm inclined to interpret it as a last resort of stupid people and I'm quite sure you're not such a thing. Let's keep this civil, pretty please?

 

Well, you're wrong with your understanding about what I said. I made no comment about WoW in that remark, and I've actually said, where appropriate, that I find the developer's work in design and theorycrafting in WOW to be poor and flawed.

 

I don't know where you got your idea about what I said, but wherever it was, it was wrong.

 

I was talking about design in general, and did not give WoW as an example at all. Try examining my words as they are, not as you misinterpreted them to be.

 

This. I have no idea where you got this idea. I was using WoW before as a comparison, I never claimed that you had said anything about it. The reason I used it as a comparison is stated on the thread with a word 'recount'. Since damage parsing with the option to share seems to be a big of a thing to you, I had to draw from what experience I've had. I have to admit that WoW is the only game that I have played that parsing was such a big a deal. That's my reference, not yours. I've no idea where you got the impression I said anything otherwise.

 

Yes, it is. It's not a hallucination at all.

 

My idea of playing includes performing sometimes. So does that of other people.

 

If yours doesn't...fair enough, but your ideas may not be compatible with mine.

 

Which is fair enough. We're discussing here about understanding the viewpoints of 'both sides' I would assume. The quotation above has become very apparent. I do understand and accept this. I know people play to perform as well and take great enjoyment out of it. In a MMORPG there's a wide range of different people who's all got different views. Being intolerant is just being an ***. Trying to find common ground with perhaps a little compromise isn't exactly a bad thing in my experience. But if you're determined to push your will on others, there's not much one can do. Disclaimer still being here that we are discussing opinions, not facts.

 

And the reality that models are developed around it, and they involve math.

 

Goes to the same bag with the above comment. This can be an enjoyment to some as it should be. But as much as this game is not made for ME exclusively, it sure ain't made for YOU either. Which is why we can have this debate.

 

You seem to have a problem accepting my enjoyment may not be compatible with yours.

 

On the contrary! I have no problem accepting it. I know it's not compatible with mine, but your patronizing attitude also in former threads about the parser has left a certain impression of not budging an inch about your opinion. I do not expect nor wish to change your mind. Just open it to other you'll be playing with for a hopefully long time.

 

Yeah, this isn't going to be the blackbox game you're looking for, sorry. And you need to talk less about WOW, it seems far more of a focus to you than it warrants, I find it to be clouding the discussion since you keep referring to it, when I don't.

 

So far it's been pretty much what I've been hoping for. Fortunately for now you can't really tell me what it will or won't be. And sorry about the WoW, didn't realize it was such a downer-subject. My reference was truly only because of the thread title, which is still the subject we're discussing.

 

Then don't hang around with people who do.

 

I won't seek you out and make you do anything.

 

But you want to control me.

 

Martyrdom again? Or just conclusions of a delude mind? I do not wish to change your mind nor do I have any need to control anyone. I think I've written in a less provocative way than you have. This is somewhat uncharacteristic of me, since I believe provocative text can be most rewarding with an intelligent partner to debate with; it draws the lines better. Now we are only going in circles here though. I wish to play with everyone when given the opportunity. I truly wish everyone felt the same way, but that's not likely to happen.

 

My most important personal point to not allowing mods at all and not introducing a shareable parser to the game is actually very simple; I wish that the people who feel the need for them would become frustrated in the end and quit for some other game that suits their needs better. That's very selfish but I think that I would enjoy the game more without such people. However, I do not force this on others nor do I wish for anyone to think the same way. But you have to give some room for other opinions than yours too, you know?

[shaneduce]

Oh hell yea! Let's get this mammoth started again.

 

No.

 

Why?

 

I believe addon developers could do a better job at satisfying any and all concerns of those players who would use a Combat Meter/Parser.

 

I don't mean that as a slight against Bioware UI staff.

 

They just have more important stuff to worry about.

 

+1

I agree enuff sayed.

[Mattiis]

I want this for 2 simple reasons: A. Theorycrafting B. My epeen needs a few strokes sometimes.

[PsyloSatan]

...anything that can make a players life easier is a good thing, the fact that some idiots miss-use things should not be a factor, such people are idiots and will find some way to spoil things with or without an addon.

 

^^^ a million times

 

Idiots should bear the weight of their own stupidity (Including the ones blaming this addon for that stupidity and making themselves equally dumb), not some software made by someone that has no clue about these problems and was just trying to help.