What changes for infil shadows in 50 PvP?

[magnashear]

For instance today civil war the pug I was in was struggling against a well organized 2 premise group. There some really good players in the pug but nevertheless we were outmatched. We held left while they held mid and right for the whole match until around 400ish to 200ish it's looks like we are finally gonna get mid capped . Once the cap at mid looks imminent , 4 of us up against 1 defender left with no support inc in sight, I immediately vanish and peel off towards right in hopes that one of the two defenders broke off to help at mid, as a bored defender will often do. As I hoped I arrive quickly at right via sprint to find 1 20k hp jugg solo guarding the node. He is dead in 8-9 gcds. We hold the 3 cap for about 90 seconds to 2 minutes, then hold 2 nodes for another 2 minutes, and finish with everyone defending left. Won the match 40-0. I love my inf shadow. I know the imps could have all just fallen on right once they had a big lead but most ppl don't play that way cuz its boring.

[magnashear]

Also this mess ive read on this thread about inf shadows only good for attacking players that are already being focuses by team members is absolutly false. Your main job is to look for enemies that are not engaged and who are standing back free casting range dps or heals and get on them.

[Kllashaa]

Given the ridiculous amount of people who have respecced tank and operative/scoundrel healer, it'd be nice if they give Infiltration something to do in between the FP bursts. Been stuck in many wzs with 6 tanks+2 operative healers lately and it's incredibly tedious. An armor debuff and healing debuff would be a good start.

[Xinika]

Given the ridiculous amount of people who have respecced tank and operative/scoundrel healer, it'd be nice if they give Infiltration something to do in between the FP bursts. Been stuck in many wzs with 6 tanks+2 operative healers lately and it's incredibly tedious. An armor debuff and healing debuff would be a good start.

 

Taunt+Guard = Where is your burst now?

[MiaRB]

This post made me giggle to be honest. According to you this spec needs to do as much dmg in 9-12 seconds yet power/surge isn't the best option. Well played sir, well played.

 

That's all.

 

your thinking that PVP is the same as PVE makes me giggle.

 

notice how i said, it also matters how often you can do that damage. if you are spending all your time in respawn because you didnt spend some points on skills that are there to help you survive or if you are sticking with a mix of PVE gear because you think 1100 exp is enough, then you are not going to be as effective as you could be.

overall +30% more armor is going to make you more effective than +6% armor pen will.

[Xinika]

your thinking that PVP is the same as PVE makes me giggle.

 

notice how i said, it also matters how often you can do that damage. if you are spending all your time in respawn because you didnt spend some points on skills that are there to help you survive or if you are sticking with a mix of PVE gear because you think 1100 exp is enough, then you are not going to be as effective as you could be.

overall +30% more armor is going to make you more effective than +6% armor pen will.

 

Your ignorance of this class on a whole is astounding.

I'm wondering if you even have a Shadow to be blunt.

Expertise soft caps at 1100, anything over that is minimal at best.

30% more armour will help you to survive for roughly 1 second longer.

Keep thinking that rolling pugs matter though.

 

I guess I should say infil is OP because I destroy anyone I encounter and can 1v2 with the occasional 1v3. Right? That makes the spec fine apparently. But then again, I'm talking to the guy that was telling both Powerr and I that we're totally wrong about this spec.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Xinika

[MiaRB]

Your ignorance of this class on a whole is astounding.

I'm wondering if you even have a Shadow to be blunt.

Expertise soft caps at 1100, anything over that is minimal at best.

30% more armour will help you to survive for roughly 1 second longer.

Keep thinking that rolling pugs matter though.

 

I guess I should say infil is OP because I destroy anyone I encounter and can 1v2 with the occasional 1v3. Right? That makes the spec fine apparently. But then again, I'm talking to the guy that was telling both Powerr and I that we're totally wrong about this spec.

 

lets see, you and power spend all your time complaining about inf spec. anytime anyone mentions inf spec in any thread in this section of the forum, you chime in with HOW TERRIBLE the spec is.

 

i, on the other hand, dont have any complaints about the spec. i do very well with it. by the way, i play in plenty of pugs. im not one of these people who only will que for WZs if i have a group to que up with.

 

common sense should tell you that it is you who might not know as much as you think about inf spec, since all you do is complain about it. and really, if inf spec is as bad as you think it is, why hasnt BW given it a giant buff? i guess it must be the devs just hate the spec? oh wait, it must be the devs just dont know as much as YOU do about pvp, lol.

 

play it how you want, dont take 30% more armor, keep thinking your "soft cap" is the way to go. keep thinking that 18% crit is the way to go. keep doing just want you are doing, and ill keep doing what im doing. lets see who complains less about the spec, you or me.

[Xinika]

lets see, you and power spend all your time complaining about inf spec. anytime anyone mentions inf spec in any thread in this section of the forum, you chime in with HOW TERRIBLE the spec is.

 

i, on the other hand, dont have any complaints about the spec. i do very well with it. by the way, i play in plenty of pugs. im not one of these people who only will que for WZs if i have a group to que up with.

 

common sense should tell you that it is you who might not know as much as you think about inf spec, since all you do is complain about it. and really, if inf spec is as bad as you think it is, why hasnt BW given it a giant buff? i guess it must be the devs just hate the spec? oh wait, it must be the devs just dont know as much as YOU do about pvp, lol.

 

play it how you want, dont take 30% more armor, keep thinking your "soft cap" is the way to go. keep thinking that 18% crit is the way to go. keep doing just want you are doing, and ill keep doing what im doing. lets see who complains less about the spec, you or me.

 

Keep acting like you know it all. People complain when something is wrong. Thank heaven BW is looking at infil though, seems like the *complaining* has helped.

[Kovaos]

Keep acting like you know it all. People complain when something is wrong. Thank heaven BW is looking at infil though, seems like the *complaining* has helped.

 

I like reading your dialogue with Mia. I must say Pre 50 I am absolutely dominating players. I logged after doing # 1 dmg 3 WZs in a row. I am interested to see how this will change when I am 50.

 

IMO keep complaining about infil and maybe we will see some positive changes. Regardless, I will play the spec as best I can.

[Xinika]

I like reading your dialogue with Mia. I must say Pre 50 I am absolutely dominating players. I logged after doing # 1 dmg 3 WZs in a row. I am interested to see how this will change when I am 50.

 

IMO keep complaining about infil and maybe we will see some positive changes. Regardless, I will play the spec as best I can.

 

By all means, if you are having fun, go ahead and enjoy it. It's a great solo/ World PvP spec.

I (personally) am a team player and based on how this game operates which is objective-based, it is a weak spec compared to what else Shadows can offer. If this game had arenas such as 2v2 or 3v3, it would be a very powerful spec. Unfortunately, based on how it works, Infil is just not a good warzone spec.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Xinika

[Barrgil]

Not a good warzone spec according to you.

 

Good warzone spec according to me, and numerous other Infiltration/Deception players out there. I'm going to repeat what Mia and myself said already, we play this same spec in warzones with pugs and are completely fine with it. Seriously, nobody except you and the hardcore complainers and whiners complained about this spec at all. In fact, this is the first time I've actually heard someone complain about it, I've even seen some posts complaining this spec is too OP.

 

Complain and whine about it all you want but you shouldn't be telling other players to avoid this spec because YOU don't like it. Kovaos wanted advice on this spec and you just came in here crying 'NO THIS SPEC SUCKS'. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it. He wanted information on THIS SPEC, not your others. I came in to give some pointers as to how I play it and why it works for me. You came in with "No amount of expertise can save you from that terrible spec". Yeah, way to go there. Some REAL helpful advice. I switched over from Tank DPS for a reason and only because I got bored. I never said that my previous spec was horrible did I?

 

Fact of the matter is Kovaos, have fun first of all with whatever you choose. Ranked warzones aren't available yet, so for the time being just do what you think is best for you. You're already doing good in warzones so keep at it, the spec is working for you so stay with it. When you hit 50, nothing should change as long as your expertise numbers are good enough.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Barrgil

[Zoggel]

Greetings folks!

 

We have removed several posts from this thread as they were off topic and derailing the thread. We have a very diverse community on the forums and players come from a variety of playstyles and opinions. While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, we ask that those opinions be expressed in a constructive and respectful manner.

 

As a gentle reminder to everyone, please remember the following:

 

• Agree to Disagree - Be respectful of others' viewpoints even if they are opposite of your own. Discuss disagreements constructively.
  
• Flag, Don't Fight - Utilize the Flag Post feature to report possible rules violations, rather than responding to or fighting them.
  
• Ignoring - If you feel you simply cannot get along with another community member, please place them on your ignore list.
  

 

Thank you!

[Xinika]

Greetings folks!

 

We have removed several posts from this thread as they were off topic and derailing the thread. We have a very diverse community on the forums and players come from a variety of playstyles and opinions. While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, we ask that those opinions be expressed in a constructive and respectful manner.

 

As a gentle reminder to everyone, please remember the following:

 

• Agree to Disagree - Be respectful of others' viewpoints even if they are opposite of your own. Discuss disagreements constructively.
  
• Flag, Don't Fight - Utilize the Flag Post feature to report possible rules violations, rather than responding to or fighting them.
  
• Ignoring - If you feel you simply cannot get along with another community member, please place them on your ignore list.
  

 

Thank you!

Totally forgot about the ignore list!! Thank you

[Barrgil]

Totally forgot about the ignore list!! Thank you

 

I'm not going to ignore you because I don't see the need to. You and I had some disagreements and we both took it too far (well, Bioware's definition of it).

 

All I'm saying is (since it got deleted, and with good reason) if you don't agree with a select spec someone is having issues or trouble with, don't come and degrade it saying it is terrible. It doesn't help and will only end up bad. At least say some good things about it and why you even bothered to play it for a small amount of time. Don't say it's not PvP material or whatever.

 

Then again, you probably already ignored me simply because I told you to stop downgrading the spec while I was only trying to tell you it's not as useless as you make it out to be in PvP. Go ahead and be immature about it, I have standards and I can put this aside so I will not ignore. I still enjoy your videos and I still will continue watching them even if we have disagreements.

 

Do what you must.

[Xinika]

I'm not going to ignore you because I don't see the need to. You and I had some disagreements and we both took it too far (well, Bioware's definition of it).

 

All I'm saying is (since it got deleted, and with good reason) if you don't agree with a select spec someone is having issues or trouble with, don't come and degrade it saying it is terrible. It doesn't help and will only end up bad. At least say some good things about it and why you even bothered to play it for a small amount of time. Don't say it's not PvP material or whatever.

 

Then again, you probably already ignored me simply because I told you to stop downgrading the spec while I was only trying to tell you it's not as useless as you make it out to be in PvP. Go ahead and be immature about it, I have standards and I can put this aside so I will not ignore. I still enjoy your videos and I still will continue watching them even if we have disagreements.

 

Do what you must.

You're not on ignore but Mia is. I apologize for my "soundingly" bad behaviour but I believe it was heavily misunderstood. I am a butthurt infil fangirl . It's what I believe a Shadow should be but it just doesn't accomplish a true PvP aspect in my humbe opinion.

[Barrgil]

You're not on ignore but Mia is. I apologize for my "soundingly" bad behaviour but I believe it was heavily misunderstood. I am a butthurt infil fangirl . It's what I believe a Shadow should be but it just doesn't accomplish a true PvP aspect in my humbe opinion.

 

I saw your armoury briefly and noticed your expertise was 1041... I know this isn't much of an issue but I play on 1110 expertise on my select server with a Deception Assassin, and do very well with it. Sure, the survivability isn't the best but I seem to make the most of it by hitting big targets like healers and sorcs, snipers, and sometimes intercept sentinels and such to make them go down faster. I prioritize especially high on ranged dps because their survivability isn't that much higher and I know I can take them down with big burst damage from this spec.

 

I guess it all depends on how you play the spec, I deal with it fine and I can easily see how someone can handily disagree with it. In Huttball for example, we're not very useful as ball carriers but we are for taking out the long rangers hurting the ball carriers. We have stealth furthermore and can knockback pretty well undetected when the carriers reach the sidewalks and not to mention we can stealth in our opponent's endzone and make for an easy pass-and-score.

 

In Voidstar as defender, I try my best to stay undetected and trick the opposing team into thinking nobody's there and pop up by surprise on the bomb planter. These guys are usually stealth classes as well, mainly ops and assassins (of course lol) and I can usually take these guys out or hold them long enough for reinforcements. On attacking, I try to plant the bomb without being seen and choose the right moment to do so.

 

On Alderaan, stealthies like us can run everywhere and ninja cap nodes and with our high damage, can manage to take out the 1 guy (sometimes) guarding fast enough and cap the node before he respawns and speeds in on the speeder. I tend to always do this and I have helped the team win numerous times with this strategy.

 

On Novare coast, I can pop into another turret and cap it as much as possible and kill any opposition since it's usually just a tank and a ranged dps guarding these things. I tend to win these battles since the tank doesn't do a lot of damage and the dps is always the one I take out first. Many of us assassins go in groups of 2 and ninja cap turrets and we usually succeed.

 

Also, I forgot to mention. I know I'm not the best at this spec and obviously I need to improve on my gameplay (sorry, never played WoW, first MMO ) but I have used some of the stuff I learned from Zybak. You've probably never heard of him but he's on my server and I'm in his guild so usually he answers my questions on this spec. He uses it very well in fact, and I see him doing really crazy stuff with Deception/Infiltration. He's without a doubt one of the best out on the server and it's good to see someone else proficient in this spec.

 

I know I'm not good since my first guide video on this spec turned out to be horrible, and I apologize for not giving back to the SwTOR community well enough. I will keep trying though and maybe one day I can prove this spec is worth a shot and why it's still a good build for any condition.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Barrgil

[MiaRB]

In Huttball for example, we're not very useful as ball carriers but we are for taking out the long rangers hurting the ball carriers. We have stealth furthermore and can knockback pretty well undetected when the carriers reach the sidewalks and not to mention we can stealth in our opponent's endzone and make for an easy pass-and-score.

 

 

for huttball, its good to equip a sheild( if you have a BM or WH one ) and switch between combat tech and shadow tech. since in hutball, playing death match is the best way to lose, you only really need to be able to deal out big damage when the other team has the ball and is best to focus on the person with the ball. when your side has ball, its good to switch to combat tech, throw gaurd on ball carrier, use taunts, CCs, and run ahead so they have someone to pass the ball to. is better to use CCs on imps instead of killing when your team has the ball, exept for certain situations. you can aslo be a good ball carrier while in combat tech with shield. just as good as most DPS gear KC specs are.

[Kllashaa]

Eh, KC shadows are much more effective ball carriers with 20s force speed that breaks snares/roots, heavy armor, 5s resilience on 45s cd, uncloaked spinning kick, passive defensive buffs, kinetic ward, battle readiness heal, and the ability to build HS stacks on the move for a bump in health while waiting for the fire pits to cycle.

 

I'm playing infiltration currently since my premades are usually lacking in front-loaded burst dps. I do well against sorc and operative healers, but merc healers are still problematic if they use their cds early. Enough people know me that I get plenty of heals, so I don't need the KC survivability too often unless I'm solo defending.

 

I think having a good amount of crit is imperative for infil, otherwise the damage isn't spikey enough in between cds. Like for any melee dps class, gear is very important. I wouldn't recommend infil without a minimum of full BM, biochem, and datacrons.

 

It's really a trade-off. I can't do clutch force pulls or FiBs to stop caps in Voidstar or solo defend a node in Civil War against 2 tankasins forever, but I can drop operatives, sorcs, snipers, marauders, etc., before they know what hit them. I think 2/2 Shadowy Veil is important . I'm only 1/2 Kinetic Field, but I try to make it a habit not to stand in AOE. I spend most of my time neutralizing the enemy team's best players.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Kllashaa

[Boarg]

Expertise soft caps at 1100, anything over that is minimal at best.

 

Just want to clarify that this isn't accurate with the new Expertise curve.

 

The new curve has very little diminishing return, and is nearly linear in the ranges anyone with PvP gear would be considering. It continues to give solid %/point returns to even beyond 1400.

 

That's nothing to do with how good it might or might not be compared to alternatives, but it stays a healthy stat and a viable gear option to any currently obtainable level.

[Boarg]

To chime in on the Infiltration debate, hopefully without fanning the flames…

 

I'm also of the opinion that Infiltration is pretty much what Shadow PvP is supposed to be at heart, but find that it didn't quite deliver a total package.

 

That said, I still play it primarily and with good success.

 

I'm fully aware of Infiltration's shortcomings. It really should have a legit opener from stealth; Spinning Kick is mostly cosmetic as an opener. It needs a little more survivability, either in passive forms or maybe with more frequent escapes.

 

I'm also fully aware of the positives it has that people tend to overlook and that people tend to exaggerate just how bad the shortcomings are sometimes. People say it has "no utility" everyday seemingly, which is mindboggling to me… It has the best snare of all the specs with Subduing Techniques. It has a 5s duration, low resolve incapacitate, with only a 15s CD in Low Slash which is far more practical and regularly useful compared to Containment (high resolve, 1m CD) which is frequently raved about. It has the best stealth, which is all kinds of utility because you can actually play from stealth without being spotted a mile away. It also has available the lowest CD interrupts, lowest CD CC break, lowest CD Cloak, on demand Force cooldown… Seems like there's some utility there to me - and things I sorely miss when playing other specs no less.

 

And honestly, part of why I stay with Infiltration is the competition from other specs really isn't that good. Kinetic seems really great until you realize the surprisingly decent scoreboard numbers are a result of how bad it is at actually killing people. It's a tank spec and works best played like one - but the other two tank classes tend to make better tanks. Balance actually does put out good sustained damage, but it's not real good at closing kills either. It's also just as squishy if opponents actually decide to try to kill you. And it's not nearly as well equipped to essentially play like a "shadow" and play objectives from stealth and nuke weakside defenders before help can arrive.

 

If I'm really going to throw preferred playstyle and fun out the window and just purely go with most powerful options possible…the answers aren't in other specs; they're in other classes.

[Joajoa]

To chime in on the Infiltration debate, hopefully without fanning the flames…

 

I'm also of the opinion that Infiltration is pretty much what Shadow PvP is supposed to be at heart, but find that it didn't quite deliver a total package.

 

That said, I still play it primarily and with good success.

 

I'm fully aware of Infiltration's shortcomings. It really should have a legit opener from stealth; Spinning Kick is mostly cosmetic as an opener. It needs a little more survivability, either in passive forms or maybe with more frequent escapes.

 

I'm also fully aware of the positives it has that people tend to overlook and that people tend to exaggerate just how bad the shortcomings are sometimes. People say it has "no utility" everyday seemingly, which is mindboggling to me… It has the best snare of all the specs with Subduing Techniques. It has a 5s duration, low resolve incapacitate, with only a 15s CD in Low Slash which is far more practical and regularly useful compared to Containment (high resolve, 1m CD) which is frequently raved about. It has the best stealth, which is all kinds of utility because you can actually play from stealth without being spotted a mile away. It also has available the lowest CD interrupts, lowest CD CC break, lowest CD Cloak, on demand Force cooldown… Seems like there's some utility there to me - and things I sorely miss when playing other specs no less.

 

And honestly, part of why I stay with Infiltration is the competition from other specs really isn't that good. Kinetic seems really great until you realize the surprisingly decent scoreboard numbers are a result of how bad it is at actually killing people. It's a tank spec and works best played like one - but the other two tank classes tend to make better tanks. Balance actually does put out good sustained damage, but it's not real good at closing kills either. It's also just as squishy if opponents actually decide to try to kill you. And it's not nearly as well equipped to essentially play like a "shadow" and play objectives from stealth and nuke weakside defenders before help can arrive.

 

If I'm really going to throw preferred playstyle and fun out the window and just purely go with most powerful options possible…the answers aren't in other specs; they're in other classes.

 

I pretty much agree.Spinning Kick is surprisingly useless in Infil Spec.I think most Shadows end up playing Kinetic because they don't have any other choice.I also agree with how poor a Tank a Kinetic Shadow is,compared to the other tanks--Shadows have to be continually hitting a target to get their survivablity up,and that's not always possible in pvp.

 

Bioware should get rid of Spinning Kick,and simply add a knockdown effect in the Infil Spec for when Shadow Strike is executed from Stealth.I mean,why else would they call it "Shadow Strike"?They should also lower the cost of Shadow Strike for Infils.

[Kllashaa]

Spinning Kick is okay in infiltration. I use Force Cloak either to drop PVP aggro or to proc Shadow's Respite in a protracted fight. In between Shadow's Respite -> Blackout -> Force Cloak (reproccing Shadow's Repsite), Infil has great force uptime on a target. Force Cloak is a regular part of my arsenal as an offensive tool, particularly since I'm specced in the cd reduction (3m to 2m, which is pretty significant).

 

That said, Spinning Kick is sometimes useful to tack on at the end of a Force Cloak in the middle of a fight. It's particularly useful if you're stuck trying to drop a Sawbones Scoundrel before he can pop Emergency Medpack. That delay is sometimes enough for Project -> Force Breach to work its magic. It's also useable as with Force Cloak as an expensive interrupt when Mind Snap and Low Slash aren't available, and you don't want to waste Force Stun as an interrupt. I don't really count Force Wave as a reliable interrupt since it comes out so slowly, and is very easy to get knocked out of.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Kllashaa

[Barrgil]

Great news everyone, it might be a bit useless here but 1.3 is confirmed to fix Shock and Project.

 

I know it's pretty miniscule now but in the long run, Shadows should be able to take out enemies as fast if not faster than their mirrored rivals. I'll see what 1.3 brings in Deception and see wheter or not I change up.

[magnashear]

Great news everyone, it might be a bit useless here but 1.3 is confirmed to fix Shock and Project.

 

I know it's pretty miniscule now but in the long run, Shadows should be able to take out enemies as fast if not faster than their mirrored rivals. I'll see what 1.3 brings in Deception and see wheter or not I change up.

 

Bad news. Project + delay> shock. Project with upheaval proc hits for 6k+, followed by breach hitting for 4k is 10k instant damage with no time for the target to react. Adding 1.5 seconds between project and breach damage gives the target time to pop medpac, pop defensive cd, or get healed by his team mates. This is from the infiltration spec point of view, which may be a more popular spec now since it sounds like tank shadows in dps gear are getting hit with the nerf bat in 1.3.

[magnashear]

Also you wouldn't want to use project to interrupt node capping anyway. It's not force efficient without csx2 up. And force slow hits instantly and has 15m range with just 2 pieces of bm gear.