Can SWTOR be Saved ?

[Raeln]

Yes it was new but I would have liked to see actual companion quests where you gon their quests with them. Also some choice in companions would be awesome.

 

Some companions do, some don't. My guess was that it was a time issue. They may have simply just ran out of time. Let's face it, there's 40 companions - that's a lot of content when you think about it. Especially for something that has not been done in an MMORPG before.

 

I think we can both agree that TOR companions are far more central to our characters than hunter's pets.

 

Biggest reason I went SW over SI love Jaesa

 

This may sound odd, but I have found that I have a very difficult time playing female characters in TOR due to wondering just what I'm missing by not playing male. The male smuggler has some pretty good flirts.

 

Enjoyed it for all of 5 seconds can't stand it, but if you like it more power to you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd much have rather free-range space exploration/combat but I did log an enormous amount of hours playing Starfox way back then. I enjoy the space missions up until the last few, then they get action packed enough that they are just meh. I really enjoy playing the mid-level ones while leveling though.

 

It was definately nice except to do other class stories after your first you have to replay the same world quests in the same order, it was fine twice but got irritating after that. Different zones for the same level would have been nice, pretty much impossible to add at this point; maybe in the next xpac.

 

This is not needed. I'd much rather have the additional zones be added as end-game level content so that it remains useful. I see no need to essentially double the number of zones for low/mid level questing when 6 months later they will sit empty, as they do in virtually every MMORPG ever created.

 

Keep in mind that many planets in TOR are the size of two to three zones in WoW. Planets like Balmorra might even be 4 zones in WoW. I'd rather have a reason to be there than to just have a land mass with a local struggle that I may or may not even care about at all. In TOR, I'm there for a reason and I'm just helping with their problems as I work on my own mission.

 

It was cool until I realized you can't do anything with it; minigames like pazaak or holo chess and the ability to customize interior would go a long way to making the game more enjoyable.

 

Patience. Rome was not built in a day.

 

When WoW released, it didn't have raid frames for months - yet people still raided. If WoW was releasing in today's climate with no raid frames, imagine the level of fail people would be projecting on that game.

 

My point is, more options will come. They have already added the ability to add mailboxes, training dummies and market kiosks. Perhaps in time, we'll get some decorating options. I think it'd be neat to get some armor mannequins to hang my unused moddables on.

 

Again I don't really think you can classify that as new. Also, please dont flame me for this is an opinion, dps meters can be useful tools for raiders helping them improve. Though spamming in general chat is wrong I would rather see dps meters than they myriad of trolling and bigotry I currently see, this is based off personal experience on my current server and the couple others I was on before I rerolled there.

 

I am fine with a damage meter being present to help the individual improve. I am more or less pleased that Bioware implemented it in the manner that they did. It requires effort to use - I like that. With even more effort, the logs can be combined to give an Ops group the full picture. I like that too.

 

I'm glad the common non-tech savvy Joe or Jane just cannot go push 2 buttons, download Recount and act like a Monday-night armchair quarterback while ending up making grouping with them a miserable experience. It got to the point in WoW where I loathed to run with pug DPS because so many seemed so beholden to the almighty Recount that they would play excessively dangerous just to try to break that #1 spot.

 

I'm glad that the results cannot be easily copied pasted and compared in /party, /guild or /ops. Its not that I ever had performance problems - I was usually in the upper 3 to 5 of the meters, it's that I just got tired of dealing with that type of player mindset. I'm so glad that Bioware is trying to minimize that nasty sum of human nature plus anonymous Internet.

 

I agree that lack of class quests in WoW was irksome, but I woul be remiss if I did not point out that, if you did read the quests, there was a lot of lore and interesting story; though the enjoyment of story is purely subjective. Also the ability to level in different zones at the same level is a strong point in that game, though this is less possible in the xpacs

 

Yes, there was a lot of lore and that lore was good for the area; however, I'd like to point out that in only a very few areas were you presented with a real cause to fight for. Many raid zones had no ties to the general lore. There might be a breadcrumb quest to pick up from a guy in Orgrimmar but it was not like there was a zone full of quests preparing you (lorewise) to storm the castle. It was almost as if there was never a raid planned for that area and then suddenly someone said, "oh golly gee, where are we going to put this raid zone? - oh let's dump it here."

 

I loved doing it the first time, both Imperial and Republic, but once you start leveling alts it feels to me as if I have to relive the same exact story. I am literally forced to progress the same way as my previous character through the same story, with minor differences in when you take side quests, and that really makes me feel as though it is no longer my story. The only change is the class quests which are far and few between, though they are welcomed relief.

 

This is absolutely no different than from WoW. There was no variation. Oh sure, maybe you could level this time in Desolace instead of Stranglethorn Vale - big friggin' deal. There was no personal connection for your character to be there save some druid/guard/messenger asking you to go there. Only on a few occasions does the story from one area actually tie into another zone.

 

The worst part for me was to experience Gorrash. He threatens me with death for being associated with his failtard General in Stonetalon Mountains, then with barely a handful of exchanges - I'm his most trusted ally in flushing out his corrupt right-hand man when it comes time to organize the assault on the Twilight Highlands. There is virtually no story there to build on - yet, TOR - which actually does attempt to do personal story building, gets lambasted for having repetitive side-mission content? 99% of the quests in WoW are repetitive side-mission content and noone is bashing that.

[USMCjv]

Some companions do, some don't. My guess was that it was a time issue. They may have simply just ran out of time. Let's face it, there's 40 companions - that's a lot of content when you think about it. Especially for something that has not been done in an MMORPG before.

 

I think we can both agree that TOR companions are far more central to our characters than hunter's pets.

All completely valid points, though i never compared them to hunter's pets in WoW (thats oranges and apples) and either way TOR comes out on top in terms of innovation there.

 

 

This may sound odd, but I have found that I have a very difficult time playing female characters in TOR due to wondering just what I'm missing by not playing male. The male smuggler has some pretty good flirts.

Not odd at all I was hoping same gender romance would be included as well, I really wanted a female warrior but I wanted to experience Jaesa's romance; it really upset me when I first found out.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd much have rather free-range space exploration/combat but I did log an enormous amount of hours playing Starfox way back then. I enjoy the space missions up until the last few, then they get action packed enough that they are just meh. I really enjoy playing the mid-level ones while leveling though.

I haven't tried the mid level space missions; I tried the first one and it turned me off to them. Some people I met love them and I think that's great I just had my expectations set a little higher with it.

 

 

This is not needed. I'd much rather have the additional zones be added as end-game level content so that it remains useful. I see no need to essentially double the number of zones for low/mid level questing when 6 months later they will sit empty, as they do in virtually every MMORPG ever created.

Agreed, they are not exactly necessary and will be mostly emptied after the majority reach endgame; I was just stating that was a major plus for me when I was playing other games and that in a game where there is so much emphasis on experiencing all the classes I would think they would give alternate leveling routes.

 

Keep in mind that many planets in TOR are the size of two to three zones in WoW. Planets like Balmorra might even be 4 zones in WoW. I'd rather have a reason to be there than to just have a land mass with a local struggle that I may or may not even care about at all. In TOR, I'm there for a reason and I'm just helping with their problems as I work on my own mission.

I agree that the zones in wow are smaller but on some planets (like Coruscant and Nar Shadaa) it feels like beeing funneled through hallways with no option to go anywhere; for me this makes the worlds like that feel smaller. Also the "static" feel in these worlds, along with no day/night cycle and no weather, make me very bored when leveling; the very small amount of music also is a detriment to the experience in the worlds. There are reasons for fighting in WoW it's not as pronounced because it's in text and not VO; for example the war between night elves and orcs in Ashenvale. Also " I'd rather have a reason to be there than to just have a land mass with a local struggle that I may or may not even care about at all" that is exactly what Balmorra is to some people, but this is subjective.

 

 

Patience. Rome was not built in a day.

 

When WoW released, it didn't have raid frames for months - yet people still raided. If WoW was releasing in today's climate with no raid frames, imagine the level of fail people would be projecting on that game.

 

My point is, more options will come. They have already added the ability to add mailboxes, training dummies and market kiosks. Perhaps in time, we'll get some decorating options. I think it'd be neat to get some armor mannequins to hang my unused moddables on.

Agreed it takes time, it is probably on the lower end of their priorities list as well (at least it should be in comparison to fixing bugs, creating LFG, and server transfers). I see the "If WoW reeases now" argument so many times and it baffles me. WoW released a long time ago, much has changed, new games have a lot of competition and need to be able to release with enough comparable features and new innovations to compete. It's not fair to the new games, these others had many years to develop, but consumers will see a product with said features and use that instead this is how the world works. When htc launched android it was comparable to the current iphone not the original iphone, because they knew it wouldn't sell without all the new bells and whistles.

 

 

I am fine with a damage meter being present to help the individual improve. I am more or less pleased that Bioware implemented it in the manner that they did. It requires effort to use - I like that. With even more effort, the logs can be combined to give an Ops group the full picture. I like that too.

 

I'm glad the common non-tech savvy Joe or Jane just cannot go push 2 buttons, download Recount and act like a Monday-night armchair quarterback while ending up making grouping with them a miserable experience. It got to the point in WoW where I loathed to run with pug DPS because so many seemed so beholden to the almighty Recount that they would play excessively dangerous just to try to break that #1 spot.

 

I'm glad that the results cannot be easily copied pasted and compared in /party, /guild or /ops. Its not that I ever had performance problems - I was usually in the upper 3 to 5 of the meters, it's that I just got tired of dealing with that type of player mindset. I'm so glad that Bioware is trying to minimize that nasty sum of human nature plus anonymous Internet.

Could not agree with the sentiment more.

 

 

Yes, there was a lot of lore and that lore was good for the area; however, I'd like to point out that in only a very few areas were you presented with a real cause to fight for. Many raid zones had no ties to the general lore. There might be a breadcrumb quest to pick up from a guy in Orgrimmar but it was not like there was a zone full of quests preparing you (lorewise) to storm the castle. It was almost as if there was never a raid planned for that area and then suddenly someone said, "oh golly gee, where are we going to put this raid zone? - oh let's dump it here."

There were a lot of important causes to fight for, most of those quests were more towards end game though. The raid raid zones always, I can't think of one that didn't not to say it does not exist though, have a quest chain or area quests and lore backing it up. Not trying to defend WoW, I went to SWTOR to get away from it, but my experience comes from WOTLK and Cata; may have been different before that. Who knows it may even be rose-tinted glasses clouding my memory in this instance.

 

 

 

This is absolutely no different than from WoW. There was no variation. Oh sure, maybe you could level this time in Desolace instead of Stranglethorn Vale - big friggin' deal. There was no personal connection for your character to be there save some druid/guard/messenger asking you to go there. Only on a few occasions does the story from one area actually tie into another zone.

 

The worst part for me was to experience Gorrash. He threatens me with death for being associated with his failtard General in Stonetalon Mountains, then with barely a handful of exchanges - I'm his most trusted ally in flushing out his corrupt right-hand man when it comes time to organize the assault on the Twilight Highlands. There is virtually no story there to build on - yet, TOR - which actually does attempt to do personal story building, gets lambasted for having repetitive side-mission content? 99% of the quests in WoW are repetitive side-mission content and noone is bashing that.

LOL at Gorrash, yeah there are some low points in the game. " you could level this time in Desolace instead of Stranglethorn Vale - big friggin' deal" this is a very big deal for me it allows me the freedom to choose to level where I want to and enjoy a more customized journey. As for the side content in WoW, I have been saying ever since I started playing that I wanted more class missions and all I got was world quests with a lot of filler in between. I think people tend to notice the filler more in TOR because you see the story instead of clicking accept quest and looking at quest objectives on your map.

 

I think we need to stop trying to compare WoW and TOR though because they both have good and bad features and no one can say either is better than the other it is purely opinion. I don't like WoW anymore it bores me to death TOR held my interest for a while but I'm gonna check back in a while to see what has changed. Does it need saving? I don't know, I have no clue what their sub numbers are but I doubt this game is going anywhere soon. Plenty of people like it and that is fine, I'm gonna go my separate way for now and check back to see what they add and maybe resub.

Edited May 22, 2012 by USMCjv

[Bluerodian]

Sounds like you already know no investors would be interested. I'm sure if you provided them with the results of your feasibility reports, they might at least listen though.

 

Funny how investors seem to want their investments to return a profit.

 

You're assuming that I would want to deal with investors in the first place. I don't. Instead of mass numbers out of the gate, the plan would be to start small and grow over time.

 

Furthermore, you also assumed I would be wanting to attract mass amounts of "gamers" instead of players in the niche market I would be targeting (And yes, there is a difference). Again, that would be an incorrect assumption.

 

By and large for the majority, yes the concept wouldn't be appealing. For the market of people who enjoy it, though, it would be, and that is the market I would be developing for.

 

There seems to be this crazy notion that it's all about Maximum Profits at all Times, and I agree that it seems to be the mentality of the industry in this day and age. My own mentality of it is "Know your niche, Make games your niche enjoys, and profits will come on their own."

Edited May 22, 2012 by Bluerodian

[Dylancholy]

the game has a million subs.

it doesn't need saving.

city of heroes has only 100,000 and there are regular updates.

 

if you want to look at an mmo that needed saving, look up Lego Universe.

Although that game was amazing RIP

[Kaptain_Kabul]

Can SWTOR be Saved ?

the answer to your question

[Raeln]

You're assuming that I would want to deal with investors in the first place. I don't. Instead of mass numbers out of the gate, the plan would be to start small and grow over time.

 

Furthermore, you also assumed I would be wanting to attract mass amounts of "gamers" instead of players in the niche market I would be targeting (And yes, there is a difference). Again, that would be an incorrect assumption.

 

By and large for the majority, yes the concept wouldn't be appealing. For the market of people who enjoy it, though, it would be, and that is the market I would be developing for.

 

There seems to be this crazy notion that it's all about Maximum Profits at all Times, and I agree that it seems to be the mentality of the industry in this day and age. My own mentality of it is "Know your niche, Make games your niche enjoys, and profits will come on their own."

 

Well, I wish you success and hope that the money your endeavor makes will at least be enough to pay your cost of doing business.

 

There is a difference between being successful and just getting enough money to keep the lights on. Niche games tend to have the latter issue.

[Kaptain_Kabul]

Well, I wish you success and hope that the money your endeavor makes will at least be enough to pay your cost of doing business.

 

There is a difference between being successful and just getting enough money to keep the lights on. Niche games tend to have the latter issue.

 

Eve is a niche game. Noone would denie this fact. Not the publisher and not the devs and not the players.

 

EvE is alive and kicking and when i log on the server is see 34453 players online on one server.

 

Thats 34400 more player than i see on my swtor server atm. But hey if we take all the servers together it would still be less than 40K player that EvE is having.

 

Not bad for a Niche game. It beats swtor easily and i dont think EvE has problems with their lights.

[Raeln]

Eve is a niche game. Noone would denie this fact. Not the publisher and not the devs and not the players.

 

EvE is alive and kicking and when i log on the server is see 34453 players online on one server.

 

Thats 34400 more player than i see on my swtor server atm. But hey if we take all the servers together it would still be less than 40K player that EvE is having.

 

Not bad for a Niche game. It beats swtor easily and i dont think EvE has problems with their lights.

 

As far as I know, EVE reports as only 1 server. That is everyone that is currently playing the game worldwide - unless they have changed it from when I played.

 

CCP reports that the current subscription level for EVE Online is about 361,000 subscriptions. That's quite a smaller pool of subscriptions than TOR. Now we can talk about why Bioware chose to not go with a megaserver, but EVE is not even on the same planet in a discussion about game size.

 

It's also difficult to compare two games when they appeal to entirely different types of players. Although EVE is technically a MMORPG, there are no planets to "explore". You never "leave" your ship. You fly around in basically empty space from space station to space station or warp gate to asteroid field / mining deployment. The game has far less artwork assets than the other MMORPGs that must provide continuous zone maps instead of empty map grids containing 1 of 23847384782347 warp gates.

[Bluerodian]

As far as I know, EVE reports as only 1 server. That is everyone that is currently playing the game worldwide - unless they have changed it from when I played.

 

CCP reports that the current subscription level for EVE Online is about 361,000 subscriptions. That's quite a smaller pool of subscriptions than TOR. Now we can talk about why Bioware chose to not go with a megaserver, but EVE is not even on the same planet in a discussion about game size.

 

It's also difficult to compare two games when they appeal to entirely different types of players. Although EVE is technically a MMORPG, there are no planets to "explore". You never "leave" your ship. You fly around in basically empty space from space station to space station or warp gate to asteroid field / mining deployment. The game has far less artwork assets than the other MMORPGs that must provide continuous zone maps instead of empty map grids containing 1 of 23847384782347 warp gates.

 

Eve uses a sharded system with their single server spread across multiple machines and load balancing. It would be comperable to TOR having one server and the entire population of the game all able to interact together simultaneously. STO uses a smiliar system, though they allow hopping between different instances.

[Cyclonit]

I don't think SWTOR can be saved. BW might be able to delay the game's death. The huge mistake BW made was making a game suitable to become a vanilla WoW killer. They should've taken inspiration from modern games instead.

[Istelle]

I think it can be saved if they do server mergers and let the population slowly regrow. Maybe in like 3 months it might pick up speed but currently it is on a steady decline (from what I've seen on my server at least).

[Kaptain_Kabul]

CCP reports that the current subscription level for EVE Online is about 361,000 subscriptions. That's quite a smaller pool of subscriptions than TOR. .

 

I dont think so. Maybe a month before you would be right. But right now, Swtor has less "paying" subscription than EvE.

 

EvE is an old lady. And she is a very different kind of game. I dont think many people liking swtor, would like EvE.

 

But EvE is beating swtor when it comes to subscribers and active players.

[LovarBoy]

This game is "dead".

 

It's not dead right now, but it's fatally ill.

 

 

Actually there is no cure for this disease. And I maintain, that there will be no cure early enough, to save this game.

[Raeln]

Eve uses a sharded system with their single server spread across multiple machines and load balancing. It would be comperable to TOR having one server and the entire population of the game all able to interact together simultaneously. STO uses a smiliar system, though they allow hopping between different instances.

 

I know how they do it. People without an IT background do not understand load balancing and server clustering. They understand it better with the term, "single server".

Edited May 22, 2012 by Raeln

[Goretzu]

Eve uses a sharded system with their single server spread across multiple machines and load balancing. It would be comperable to TOR having one server and the entire population of the game all able to interact together simultaneously. STO uses a smiliar system, though they allow hopping between different instances.

 

Seems strange they didn't at least make servers bigger, seems most to the technology is there.

[Raeln]

I dont think so. Maybe a month before you would be right. But right now, Swtor has less "paying" subscription than EvE.

 

EvE is an old lady. And she is a very different kind of game. I dont think many people liking swtor, would like EvE.

 

But EvE is beating swtor when it comes to subscribers and active players.

 

Are you serious? Go look at May's numbers for EVE. It's 361,000 subscriptions and something like 400,000 active players. TOR has 3.5 subscribers to EVE's 1.

[Kaptain_Kabul]

Are you serious? Go look at May's numbers for EVE. It's 361,000 subscriptions and something like 400,000 active players. TOR has 3.5 subscribers to EVE's 1.

 

You mean 40K active players .

 

And Swtor has 1,3 million active subs, which means in Swtor terms, they have paid or having "free time". Which means everyone and their dog whos having legacy level 6 is having 30 days. If every active sub is getting another 30 Days free time, they would have 1,3 million subs the next month.

Thats why i wrote "paying " subs.

 

And EvE is still growing even after 9 Years (and one facelifting).

 

Yes i say Swtor has right now, at this moment less than 360k paying subscribers!

When i look at the biggest german PvP-Server (not RP) i see around 200 People on, on both sides.

While "Gnawers Rost" has 20 people on both sides, thats pretty much a ghost server.

 

If we start to count and then look at the numbers EvE has online atm. i bet they beat Swtor!

[Raeln]

You mean 40K active players .

 

And Swtor has 1,3 million active subs, which means in Swtor terms, they have paid or having "free time". Which means everyone and their dog whos having legacy level 6 is having 30 days. If every active sub is getting another 30 Days free time, they would have 1,3 million subs the next month.

Thats why i wrote "paying " subs.

 

And EvE is still growing even after 9 Years (and one facelifting).

 

Yes i say Swtor has right now, at this moment less than 360k paying subscribers!

When i look at the biggest german PvP-Server (not RP) i see around 200 People on, on both sides.

While "Gnawers Rost" has 20 people on both sides, thats pretty much a ghost server.

 

If we start to count and then look at the numbers EvE has online atm. i bet they beat Swtor!

 

I suppose you are just going to ignore the mass exodus EVE had a few months ago when they were leading up to launching their latest controversial expansion - if memory serves, the company did a large player summit and crawfished on some of their new policies.

 

Still - it's a different game and comparing the two are apples vs oranges.

[Kaptain_Kabul]

I suppose you are just going to ignore the mass exodus EVE had a few months ago when they were leading up to launching their latest controversial expansion - if memory serves, the company did a large player summit and crawfished on some of their new policies.

 

Still - it's a different game and comparing the two are apples vs oranges.

 

You call it crawfish, i call it listening to their playerbase. And the people came back.

 

Two companies, two different MMos, two different solutions to a playerexodus, two different outcomes.

 

But we cant compare because EvE is for hardcoe PvP players and crafter and Swtor is......

 

i dont fully buy the apples and oranges, we are still talking about mmorpgs.

So even if they dont have the same target audience, they are still comparable when it comes to managment.

[Eillack]

I'm not sure if it can be saved from the vocal minority.

[JeramieCrowe]

Two companies, two different MMos, two different solutions to a playerexodus, two different outcomes.

 

It's still a bit too early to call any "outcome" for TOR at this point in time...

[Kaptain_Kabul]

It's still a bit too early to call any "outcome" for TOR at this point in time...

 

i call this "outcome"!

 

(I know that its not "primetime", but this!?!?)

 

This server was a jewel. Worldfirstkill SOA 8 NM and the second biggest german server. Sometimes i was proud playing there. Now its miserable and boring and empty.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Could SWTOR be saved?

 

Yes.

 

BioWare made some mistakes, but they still have a dedicated fanbase. The game needs a restructure though. The game needs some big tweaks and it needs to really make itself something other than WoW in space. It needs a new style of gameplay. It needs to recapture Star Wars instead of slapping a Star Wars skin on WoW.

[JeramieCrowe]

i call this "outcome"!

 

(I know that its not "primetime", but this!?!?)

 

This server was a jewel. Worldfirstkill SOA 8 NM and the second biggest german server. Sometimes i was proud playing there. Now its miserable and boring and empty.

 

Which still has an opportunity to come around. BW has a very narrow window of opportunity here to turn things around. They got lucky that GW2 launch has been pushed to Fall or Thanksgiving.

[Rouge]

Of course the game could be saved, if EA just wants to invest enough money. But that would mean big marketing campaigns in connection of adding new content, and the lay-offs pretty much tell us that EA has given up. Too easily, I think, but that's how it is.