As A Sorcerer, Every One Is OP

[Astarica]

There's a very exact 1 to 1 move-counteremove in the Sorc versus Tankasin fight and the Tankasin pretty much has a counter for everything. The only way it doens't work is if you got collatoral CC, like say you root a Tankasin, he pops Force Speed, and then someone nearby happened to use an AE blind. This isn't necessarily a 2on1. Whoever did the CC may have absolutely no intention of helping you but you're just a lucky benficiiary and now you have an advantageous position.

 

That said usually in these situation the Tankasin should just turn around and attack the guy who blinded him instead of trying to close in 30m of distance while behind on Force Speed. Sorcs basically need a lot of help, whether directed or accidental, versus many classes, though they're also the biggest beneficiary of random AE CCs since they've the best mobility out of range DPS. But if you don't get any lucky AE CC breaks, then life is very painful.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Astarica

[Astarica]

The worst part about it is that the middle tree could easily be the strongest, most fun, most skilled version if it wasn't so badly put together. It's supposed to be the burst/flee for your life playstyle, but it turns out you can't really burst because the casting is too slow, and you can't really flee very well since every opponent in this game seems to be able to root or slow you as well.

 

Also the animations for the middle tree are kind of sweet, especially on Republic side. It's like you're throwing hadoukens all over the place, and if the 31 pt talent was a beam-move like a kamehameha you bet people would nerdgasm over the spec and play it like crazy.

 

As it is though, the hadouken (Disturbance) move just does no damage, the cast time is too long even with alacrity, and it has no kiting properties either. No matter how cool the move looks, there is no reason to use it over TT/FL in terms of damage or utility at all.

 

I wish I could dress as a hobo (actually I kind of already do that) and pump out hadoukens with some viability. I don't know if that would ever get old for me.

 

The middle tree has very good fleeing abilities. Bubble blind and KB root bothers even a Tankasin a lot and they're the strongest class against PBAE CCs. The problem is that the tree doesn't do enough damage so nobody really cares they get rooted by your KB if you can't capitalize on that opening anyway. I always thought the 31 point talent is supposed to be the equivalent of Pyroblast (big nuke that takes a long time to setup) but it's just not. It's pretty funny since NPCs that use Thundering Blast does mega damage with it if you let them set it up to the point that it's almost one hit kill.

[SinnedWill]

Disagree. Like I said before, we will die to Tankassins but at least we have slightly more options to stay alive for a little longer and thus can inflict an acceptable amount of damage in return before we die. I do not feel this is the case against Marauders because it is trivial for them to slow us down and we cannot dispel the slow on our own. Hence we only get one chance to make a serious opening and that is with Force Speed. So we have like, what, 15sec max before their Leap is back up (but most likely far less than 15sec)? You will NOT kill a good Marauder with even one defensive cooldown ready in that period of time. I could go into details but my brain is hurting from all the debating I've been doing recently.

I don't use force speed often against maras/sents - force slow, creeping terror root is most of what you need - and try to stay within 10m (yet outside of melee range). Apply knockback if needed. Save stun to finish. I usually come out from a 1v1 with sentinel/maras of any spec with 80% health. Just gotta' know each spec's offensive window and how best to counter it (helps to play one).

Are Tankassins very strong, probably OP? Yes. Should they be nerfed? Yes. Does that mean Marauders and Pyrotechs get a free pass? No.

I play all 3 of these as well. Maras need nerfs least among your list (annihilation being the only exception to even be considered, really) and the rest don't need SIGNIFICANT nerfs. Changes to certain talents and/or locations would easily fix issues involving sins/shadows/ptechs/vg's.

To be honest, the only reason why I failed to mention Tankassins in the list of OP classes was because I personally have far less trouble vs. them than Pyros or Marauders for whatever reasons you and I might want to argue about (but let's not.) Their DPS, tanking, stealth and utility are too much when combined. The fact that I forgot was just me being closed-minded. So I apologize.

I understand we likely play differently, hence the difference in what we feel excels most at killing us (and player skill of these classes might vary as well between our experiences). But I pvp a LOT (pretty much 99.99% of my entire SWTOR gameplay) and can honestly say that unless a tankassin is either bad, inexperienced, ungeared, or VERY UNLUCKY (meaning they thrashed me 5 times without a single energized shock proc), then the tankassin is going to win. Maras/Sents can be played by the best people with the best tactics and everything off CD and still lose to me in a 1v1 (it's possible that I only perform so well against them due to the fact that I play one) - I kinda have maras/sents down to a science and keep in mind I'm speaking of 1v1 situations - 2v1 can end poorly for me based on situation particularly if one goes off on me while the other uses choke (carnage/rage specs being the ones to dish out the burst in that situation).

[V-Serp]

I don't use force speed often against maras/sents - force slow, creeping terror root is most of what you need - and try to stay within 10m (yet outside of melee range). Apply knockback if needed. Save stun to finish. I usually come out from a 1v1 with sentinel/maras of any spec with 80% health. Just gotta' know each spec's offensive window and how best to counter it (helps to play one).

 

I play all 3 of these as well. Maras need nerfs least among your list (annihilation being the only exception to even be considered, really) and the rest don't need SIGNIFICANT nerfs. Changes to certain talents and/or locations would easily fix issues involving sins/shadows/ptechs/vg's.

 

I understand we likely play differently, hence the difference in what we feel excels most at killing us (and player skill of these classes might vary as well between our experiences). But I pvp a LOT (pretty much 99.99% of my entire SWTOR gameplay) and can honestly say that unless a tankassin is either bad, inexperienced, ungeared, or VERY UNLUCKY (meaning they thrashed me 5 times without a single energized shock proc), then the tankassin is going to win. Maras/Sents can be played by the best people with the best tactics and everything off CD and still lose to me in a 1v1 (it's possible that I only perform so well against them due to the fact that I play one) - I kinda have maras/sents down to a science and keep in mind I'm speaking of 1v1 situations - 2v1 can end poorly for me based on situation particularly if one goes off on me while the other uses choke (carnage/rage specs being the ones to dish out the burst in that situation).

 

What the hell would staying within 10m against a Mara achieve? 2 of the 3 specs have a gap closer that roots under 10m (Obliterate in Rage, talented Force Leap/Charge in Anni). Additionally the third class has a root on deadly throw under that range. All 3 obviously also have force choke and force scream at those distances.

 

I have a Mara and I have yet to be kited effectively by any class, including the Snipers people complain about. If you are a Mara getting kited by a Sorc/Sage you are just really bad.

[SinnedWill]

. I always thought the 31 point talent is supposed to be the equivalent of Pyroblast (big nuke that takes a long time to setup) but it's just not. It's pretty funny since NPCs that use Thundering Blast does mega damage with it if you let them set it up to the point that it's almost one hit kill.

 

It's not bad for burst damage in total if affliction is left uncleansed AND/or target doesn't LoS while affliction is up, which you can just assume never to happen due to the root mechanic from electric bindings. It could certainly benefit from becoming instant-cast and still might not be overpowered (due to CD). Hmm, maybe that would be a viable solution to fix the lightning tree... somewhat. Then I could see lightning tree being good at sustained (turret-mode, though) AoE dps with a little bit of emergency burst (mostly effective against tanks).

[Astarica]

Kiting in this game isn't like how people think of kiting especially in the PvE sense where you kill something without the enemy ever hitting you.

 

In SWTOR kiting means the melee ends up missing a few GCDs and this often turns a victory into a defeat, especially against SW archtypes that must melee to generate more resources. 2 GCDs = 4 rage + 2 autoattack worth of damage, and 4 rage is definitely enough to fire off another attack that can turn the fight around.

[SinnedWill]

What the hell would staying within 10m against a Mara achieve? 2 of the 3 specs have a gap closer that roots under 10m (Obliterate in Rage, talented Force Leap/Charge in Anni). Additionally the third class has a root on deadly throw under that range. All 3 obviously also have force choke and force scream at those distances.

 

I have a Mara and I have yet to be kited effectively by any class, including the Snipers people complain about. If you are a Mara getting kited by a Sorc/Sage you are just really bad.

 

It's more of a matter of timing our abilities to kite - also staying in closer from the <10m range talented charge/obliterate causes less animation delay on the receiving end. Talented deadly saber's root seems to last identically to creeping terror's root (pretty sure deadly saber root is only lasting 2s), and using force choke (from 10m) while we have DoT's up and (assuming your annihilation) don't have DoT's up on us is the worst possible thing you could do. Only time 1v1 force choke is effective is if you're annihilation and have DoT's up or (as any spec)target has barely >30% health and you need rage for vicious throw while being too lazy to chase and earn the rage lol.

[V-Serp]

It's more of a matter of timing our abilities to kite - also staying in closer from the <10m range talented charge/obliterate causes less animation delay on the receiving end. Talented deadly saber's root seems to last identically to creeping terror's root (pretty sure deadly saber root is only lasting 2s), and using force choke (from 10m) while we have DoT's up and (assuming your annihilation) don't have DoT's up on us is the worst possible thing you could do. Only time 1v1 force choke is effective is if you're annihilation and have DoT's up or (as any spec)target has barely >30% health and you need rage for vicious throw while being too lazy to chase and earn the rage lol.

 

You don't know your classes and it shows. It's a 3s root, and if the Mara is in that spec they are moving atleast 15% faster than normal anyway (and then add in predation to increase speed even more).

 

Using Force Choke as Rage Spec ticks Shockwave and buffs up Smash damage, which will time nicely with an obliterate or leap to auto crit it, while of course rooting so you can hit with it easily. Not to mention the sheer damage force choke does to a squishy target like Sorc/Sage.

 

90% of people are really bad at PVP in this game, but 95% of people sure write a lot trying to brag how great they are.

[SinnedWill]

Kiting in this game isn't like how people think of kiting especially in the PvE sense where you kill something without the enemy ever hitting you.

 

In SWTOR kiting means the melee ends up missing a few GCDs and this often turns a victory into a defeat, especially against SW archtypes that must melee to generate more resources. 2 GCDs = 4 rage + 2 autoattack worth of damage, and 4 rage is definitely enough to fire off another attack that can turn the fight around.

 

^^ and/or avoiding the major damage from a brief "window of opportunity" attacks (i.e. keeping outside of melee after a carnage marauder gets a gore proc/annihilation marauder uses charged saber, etc.), and preventing as much damage (as possible) from being dealt to you during cooldowns (i.e. relics/adrenal/buffs).

[SinnedWill]

You don't know your classes and it shows. It's a 3s root, and if the Mara is in that spec they are moving atleast 15% faster than normal anyway (and then add in predation to increase speed even more).

 

Using Force Choke as Rage Spec ticks Shockwave and buffs up Smash damage, which will time nicely with an obliterate or leap to auto crit it, while of course rooting so you can hit with it easily. Not to mention the sheer damage force choke does to a squishy target like Sorc/Sage.

 

90% of people are really bad at PVP in this game, but 95% of people sure write a lot trying to brag how great they are.

My mara is carnage. I know full well about deadly saber's root and sorcerer's creeping terror root, they cancel each other out, mate (which is why I previously stated that deadly saber's root duration seems bugged - possibly due to animation delay) - can't have predation up all the time (even if you could guarantee a full fury stack, wouldn't you rather bloodthirst over predation for a 1v1?) and we rely more on our roots than crippling slash to keep within melee (due to rage starvation).

Rage marauders will get 1 fully empowered smash crit on a good sorc/sage 1v1 then have to wait for force choke CD (force crush is purgable, depriving shockwaves, slow, and all damage from it).

Fully channeled force choke does ~ 6% of my sorcerer's health in damage (without any bubble).

And I guess with all things considered that you have just explained which statistic you apply to.

Edited May 15, 2012 by SinnedWill

[SerikFox]

The worst part about it is that the middle tree could easily be the strongest, most fun, most skilled version if it wasn't so badly put together. It's supposed to be the burst/flee for your life playstyle, but it turns out you can't really burst because the casting is too slow, and you can't really flee very well since every opponent in this game seems to be able to root or slow you as well.

 

Also the animations for the middle tree are kind of sweet, especially on Republic side. It's like you're throwing hadoukens all over the place, and if the 31 pt talent was a beam-move like a kamehameha you bet people would nerdgasm over the spec and play it like crazy.

 

As it is though, the hadouken (Disturbance) move just does no damage, the cast time is too long even with alacrity, and it has no kiting properties either. No matter how cool the move looks, there is no reason to use it over TT/FL in terms of damage or utility at all.

 

I wish I could dress as a hobo (actually I kind of already do that) and pump out hadoukens with some viability. I don't know if that would ever get old for me.

 

I would like to see the top level middle tree talent be based more around an aoe root or knockback ability - some sort of crowd control. Either make it an area attack that shares a CD with forcequake and has half the activation time for the same damage range, but snares the targets by 70% for the duration and increases all damage taken by them by 2% for each time damage tick (6x ticks ideally) for 2sec after damage is done. Or, make it an instant ability that acts like an AOE force push, knocking up to 3 people back about as far as force push does with the same relative effects and damage (2 sec knockdown for "effects"). Give it a 45sec CD or something. Make it either a useful ability (like the AOE force push) or a very powerful one (like the upgraded forcequake mentioned). It needs a lot of other changes as well I feel, but the top lvl ability is the biggest fault. As it is - it's just a bad tree. It really is.