The Point of Qui-Gon Jinn

[Slowpokeking]

You're bending yourself into a pretzel in a fruitless attempt to rationalize away the obvious. We're talking about a slave owned by junk dealer on an outer-rim dump of a desert planet. If Padme, and/or the Jedi for that matter, are half the people we're supposed to believe they are, then there's no reason they couldn't find a way to entice Watto to sell Shmi. The reason they didn't has nothing to do with in-universe logic and everything to do with Lucas wanting to fabricate an angsty origin story for Anakin (an origin story that, btw, Lucas doesn't really even begin to explore until Episode II).

 

When a powerful Sith Lord and the Chancellor of the Republic was watching, later used her to let Anakin walk closer to the Dark Side? Did you see the Jedi free any slaves? Even Qui Gon said it's not their business.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[RDeanOU]

Remember it's after an invasion, they got a lot to do, and got to thank the gungans a lot.

 

Also, Palpatine already had an eye upon Anakin since the end of EP I, he could easily stop that.

 

It's after a victory. One of the things to do is to honor and reward those responsible. I find it completely implausible to believe that a grateful planet that was just saved from enslavement and/or annihilation wouldn't be able to get the wealth together to go free one slave. Remember that nifty parade they had at the end of Episode 1. Just pass a stinking offering bucket around at that deal and problem solved. For that matter, a tiny portion of what was spent on that parade would have been all that was necessary to get the job done.

 

You are really grasping to continue to believe this is plausible.

[Slowpokeking]

It's after a victory. One of the things to do is to honor and reward those responsible. I find it completely implausible to believe that a grateful planet that was just saved from enslavement and/or annihilation wouldn't be able to get the wealth together to go free one slave. Remember that nifty parade they had at the end of Episode 1. Just pass a stinking offering bucket around at that deal and problem solved. For that matter, a tiny portion of what was spent on that parade would have been all that was necessary to get the job done.

 

You are really grasping to continue to believe this is plausible.

 

Yes it is a victory, but they still got a lot to do because their home was invaded. Why did you ignore there was a powerful Sith Lord, also as the Chancellor of the Republic kept an eye on Anakin and his mother, ready to use his mother to let him fall to the Dark Side?

Edited May 19, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[RDeanOU]

When a powerful Sith Lord and the Chancellor of the Republic was watching, later used her to let Anakin walk closer to the Dark Side? Did you see the Jedi free any slaves? Even Qui Gon said it's not their business.

 

Palpatine had minimal interest in Anakin at this time. He was still just a child and only barely on Palpatine's radar. He was trying to consolidate power in the Senate and there is no way he would have interfered with efforts to free Shmi.

 

As a matter of fact, we did see the Jedi free a slave.....Anakin. I also saw a Jedi try and fail to free Shmi. It's unbelievable how badly you are stretching the limits of plausibility to avoid conceding this point. It's frankly beginning to look ridiculous.

Edited May 19, 2012 by RDeanOU

[RDeanOU]

Yes it is a victory, but they still got a lot to do because their home was invaded. Why did you ignore there was a powerful Sith Lord, also as the Chancellor of the Republic kept an eye on Anakin and his mother, ready to use his mother to let him fall to the Dark Side?

 

A Sith Lord who is trying to consolidate his newly gained political power and find a new apprentice that is ready right now instead of 15-20 years later as Anakin might be. Palpatine was not interested in manipulating Anakin's situation with his mother until much later.

[Slowpokeking]

Palpatine had minimal interest in Anakin at this time. He was still just a child and only barely on Palpatine's radar. He was trying to consolidate power in the Senate and there is no way he would have interfered with efforts to free Shmi.

 

As a matter of fact, we did see the Jedi free a slave.....Anakin. I also saw a Jedi try and fail to free Shmi. It's unbelievable how badly you are stretching the limits of plausibility to avoid conceding this point. It'd frankly beginning to look ridiculous.

 

That's not correct, when Plagueis and Sidious discovered Qui Gon Jinn brought back a boy called Anakin, they immediately fell into panic because he could be the Chosen One and possibly created by Plagueis. Later he even met with the boy Anakin and decided to take him as apprentice.

 

Sure he could, he could even erase millions of people's memories in DE comic, why would it be so difficult to let people forget about it?

Edited May 19, 2012 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

A Sith Lord who is trying to consolidate his newly gained political power and find a new apprentice that is ready right now instead of 15-20 years later as Anakin might be. Palpatine was not interested in manipulating Anakin's situation with his mother until much later.

 

He was aware of this boy when he firstly heard him from Dooku, shortly after the crisis of Naboo, he arranged a meeting with Obi Wan and Anakin, decided to take him as apprentice.

[Invictos]

It's unbelievable how badly you are stretching the limits of plausibility to avoid conceding this point. It's frankly beginning to look ridiculous.

 

It's been ridiculous for some time.

 

Now we're supposed to assume that Palpatine, who only learned of Anakin's existence at the end of Episode I, immediately prevented any possible sale of Shmi. How he would have done that is left totally up in the air, of course, and the only proffered evidence even hinting that Palpatine might be interested in doing such a thing is from an ex-post-facto source (the Darth Plagueis novel, presumably). There is no evidence that Palpatine ever interfered with Watto; after all, if Palpatine had interfered with Watto, one might reasonably assume that Shmi never would have been released to marry Lars. What, did Palpatine go to Watto and tell him, on pain of death, not to release Shmi until some arbitrary period of time later?

 

The fact is that as the movies are structured, there's no good reason for Shmi to remain a slave. That's but one of the host of inconsistencies that plague the prequels, though.

[Slowpokeking]

It's been ridiculous for some time.

 

Now we're supposed to assume that Palpatine, who only learned of Anakin's existence at the end of Episode I, immediately prevented any possible sale of Shmi. How he would have done that is left totally up in the air, of course, and the only proffered evidence even hinting that Palpatine might be interested in doing such a thing is from an ex-post-facto source (the Darth Plagueis novel, presumably). There is no evidence that Palpatine ever interfered with Watto; after all, if Palpatine had interfered with Watto, one might reasonably assume that Shmi never would have been released to marry Lars. What, did Palpatine go to Watto and tell him, on pain of death, not to release Shmi until some arbitrary period of time later?

 

The fact is that as the movies are structured, there's no good reason for Shmi to remain a slave. That's but one of the host of inconsistencies that plague the prequels, though.

 

1 Palpatine learned Anakin's existence even before Qui Gon Jinn brought him back, during the middle of EP I.

 

2 All he had to do is block Shmi from leaving Tatooine. Then later arrange a painful death for her, to let Anakin in sorrow.

 

You are claiming that the queen of Naboo could easily free Shmi, but the Chancellor of the Republic, the mastermind behind the Federation, also a very powerful Sith Lord could not stop Shmi from leaving Tatooine?

[Slowpokeking]

And it's not firstly showed in that novel.

 

In EP I's movie, Palpatine clearly said: And you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest.

[Invictos]

1 Palpatine learned Anakin's existence even before Qui Gon Jinn brought him back, during the middle of EP I.

 

There's no evidence for that in the movie. Further, it doesn't follow that just because Palpatine knew about Anakin, he also knew about Shmi. And even if he did know about Shmi, it doesn't follow that Palpatine had any plan at that point to use Shmi as a prop in Anakin's downfall. Your argument is pure speculation built on wishful thinking.

 

2 All he had to do is block Shmi from leaving Tatooine. Then later arrange a painful death for her, to let Anakin in sorrow.

 

Except that there's no evidence that he did prevent Shmi from leaving Tatooine. As far as the viewer knows, Shmi lived on under the status quo until some point years down the line when Watto released her, and then she married Lars. More important, there's no evidence that anyone even thought to try to take Shmi from Tatooine, and so any preventative measure that Palpatine might have had in place was never tested. That's sorta the point.

 

Heck, if Lucas had spent some of the wasted screen time in Episode I dealing with a (failed) attempt to rescue Shmi, then the first movie might fit a little better within the arc of the trilogy.

 

You are claiming that the queen of Naboo could easily free Shmi, but the Chancellor of the Republic, the mastermind behind the Federation, also a very powerful Sith Lord could not stop Shmi from leaving Tatooine?

 

I am looking at the evidence to determine what's plausible and what's likely. You're grasping at any possible excuse to wave away obvious plot holes. First, it was the laughable idea that the Republic doesn't have jurisdiction on Tatooine, and that therefore ... a Republic citizen can't arrange to buy something from a Tatooine junk dealer? Yeah. No. Now you trot out this Sith Lord theory, which is great and all, except that what a Sith Lord could or could not do is irrelevant; the question is whether we have any reasonable basis to assume that a Sith Lord did do a particular thing.

[Invictos]

And it's not firstly showed in that novel.

 

In EP I's movie, Palpatine clearly said: And you, young Skywalker; we shall watch your career with great interest.

 

He says that at the end of the movie. Which is kinda, you know, what I was talking about.

[Slowpokeking]

1 Both in the movie and later in the novel, he already decided to take Anakin as apprentice.

2 He indeed used Shmi's death to draw anger of Anakin, and he was highly possible behind her death.

 

Since he already had the plan to corrupt Anakin since EP I, and later used his mother's death to lure him. It's not just pure speculation, but something with high possibility.

 

To Naboo, compare to many other things after a battle, it's not a very important thing to free Shmi. But to Palpatine, it's very important for him to get such a powerful apprentice and overturn the prophecy. He had the power, he had the motive, and he later indeed used this to lure Anakin.

[Slowpokeking]

He says that at the end of the movie. Which is kinda, you know, what I was talking about.

 

So what? Even if we put the novel of Plagueis aside, both Naboo and Palpatine paid attention to Anakin, but to Palpatine this boy was much more important, he was also much more powerful than Padme in all the ways, why couldn't he simply make sure Shmi would remain in Tatooine, since he later used Shmi's death(and probably arranged it) to corrupt Anakin?

[Invictos]

1 Both in the movie and later in the novel, he already decided to take Anakin as apprentice.

 

To the extent that Episode I gives us any evidence at all that Palpatine had decided to take Anakin as an apprentice, that evidence appears at the very end of the movie, at the Naboo victory parade.

 

2 He indeed used Shmi's death to draw anger of Anakin, and he was highly possible behind her death.

 

He used her death, rhetorically, to provoke doubt in Anakin. There's no evidence that Palpatine was behind Shmi's death, and even if there were evidence that Palpatine caused her to be kidnapped by Sand People, a decade after the Naboo parade, that has very little bearing on Shmi's fate in the immediate aftermath of Episode I. As noted previously, Shmi was allowed to live under the status quo for years, and then allowed peaceably to marry Lars. Why? Because Lucas felt he had to explain the Luke-Lars connection. Unfortunately, Lucas' desire to elicit a fanboy gasp of recognition works against your theory that Palpatine interfered with a potential sale of Shmi.

 

Again, there is no evidence that anyone even tried to release Shmi, not immediately after the events of Episode I, and not at any point during the many years leading up to her death. If Palpatine did have measures in place to prevent her sale, then they were never tested. The fact that no one tried to free Shmi is much more problematic than the idea that Palpatine might've prevented them from succeeding.

 

To Naboo, compare to many other things after a battle, it's not a very important thing to free Shmi.

 

To Padme? To the Jedi? More particularly to Obi-Wan, who's just taken on Anakin as an apprentice, despite the council's fear that Anakin might fall victim to strong emotions? Yeah, leaving his mother in bondage is a great way to ensure that Anakin won't get all emo later. Awesome plan, guys.

 

At best, the characters in question are *******es for not thinking to go back and free Shmi. At worst, their omission is a failure of the writer.

[Slowpokeking]

To the extent that Episode I gives us any evidence at all that Palpatine had decided to take Anakin as an apprentice, that evidence appears at the very end of the movie, at the Naboo victory parade.

 

 

 

He used her death, rhetorically, to provoke doubt in Anakin. There's no evidence that Palpatine was behind Shmi's death, and even if there were evidence that Palpatine caused her to be kidnapped by Sand People, a decade after the Naboo parade, that has very little bearing on Shmi's fate in the immediate aftermath of Episode I. As noted previously, Shmi was allowed to live under the status quo for years, and then allowed peaceably to marry Lars. Why? Because Lucas felt he had to explain the Luke-Lars connection. Unfortunately, Lucas' desire to elicit a fanboy gasp of recognition works against your theory that Palpatine interfered with a potential sale of Shmi.

 

Again, there is no evidence that anyone even tried to release Shmi, not immediately after the events of Episode I, and not at any point during the many years leading up to her death. If Palpatine did have measures in place to prevent her sale, then they were never tested. The fact that no one tried to free Shmi is much more problematic than the idea that Palpatine might've prevented them from succeeding.

 

 

 

To Padme? To the Jedi? More particularly to Obi-Wan, who's just taken on Anakin as an apprentice, despite the council's fear that Anakin might fall victim to strong emotions? Yeah, leaving his mother in bondage is a great way to ensure that Anakin won't get all emo later. Awesome plan, guys.

 

At best, the characters in question are *******es for not thinking to go back and free Shmi. At worst, their omission is a failure of the writer.

 

So what? It's too late? Naboo immediately sent people to free Shmi when they got tons of stuff to do?

 

He used her death and later when Anakin saw similar visions of Padme, he used this to draw him to the Dark Side. It's fair to say it's part of his plan. While there was no clear evidence to show that he was directly behind the murder.

 

Shmi was allowed to live for so long because he had to let Anakin grow up and become a Jedi, let him see that the Jedi power he got could not save his loved ones, its discipline even let you put down your affection, thus he would question and finally betray the Jedi Order.

 

The Jedi don't take family as very important issue, especially the old order, didn't you hear what did Yoda say about he tried to talk with his visions? "Let things go" That's the flaw of them, and that's why did they fail.

[Invictos]

So what? It's too late? Naboo immediately sent people to free Shmi when they got tons of stuff to do?

 

He used her death and later when Anakin saw similar visions of Padme, he used this to draw him to the Dark Side. It's fair to say it's part of his plan. While there was no clear evidence to show that he was directly behind the murder.

 

Shmi was allowed to live for so long because he had to let Anakin grow up and become a Jedi, let him see that the Jedi power he got could not save his loved ones, its discipline even let you put down your affection, thus he would question and finally betray the Jedi Order.

 

The Jedi don't take family as very important issue, especially the old order, didn't you hear what did Yoda say about he tried to talk with his visions? "Let things go" That's the flaw of them, and that's why did they fail.

 

You are, once again, missing the point. The idea that Palpatine both prevented anyone from freeing Shmi, and simultaneously allowed her to live under the status quo for years -- subsequently to be freed by happenstance -- is self-contradictory on its face.

 

In any case, this entire line of discussion is irrelevant; preventing a sale is a wholly different matter from preventing any interest in a sale. I could buy the former; in fact I think a failed attempt to free Shmi would've made the story more interesting. It's the latter prospect, that somehow Palpatine not only prevented Shmi from being freed (except years later, when, you know, she was freed), but also prevented anyone from even thinking about freeing Shmi -- that's the idea that I find implausible.

 

And yes, that final paragraph of yours is correct. You're describing what is called an idiot plot, and it's not good writing.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Invictos
typo

[LeeC]

So what? It's too late? Naboo immediately sent people to free Shmi when they got tons of stuff to do?

 

Okay what stuff? Naboo was peacefully taken. they didnt have an army and put up no fight. the droids just walked in). Naboo was occupied for roughly 3-5 days and the only damage done was perhaps blaster scoring in the palace. Or a couple of blown out walls from blowing up that tank in the beginning of the battle. Most of the final battle was fought in an empty field miles away. What "stuff" do they really need to do? They through a very elaborate celebration shortly after the battle after everything was cleaned up.

 

The Naboo and the gungans face little to no collateral damage.

 

Edit:

 

Also how old is Owen? Is he the offspring of Lars and Shmi? If so then she would of been freed a year or two after anakin went to the jedi. In Ep 2 he seemed a couple of years younger than Anakin and was dating Bereu.

Edited May 19, 2012 by LeeC

[Slowpokeking]

You are, once again, missing the point. The idea that Palpatine both prevented anyone from freeing Shmi, and simultaneously allowed her to live under the status quo for years -- subsequently to be freed by happenstance -- is self-contradictory on its face.

 

In any case, this entire line of discussion is irrelevant; preventing a sale is a wholly different matter from preventing any interest in a sale. I could buy the former; in fact I think a failed attempt to free Shmi would've made the story more interesting. It's the latter prospect, that somehow Palpatine not only prevented Shmi from being freed (except years later, when, you know, she was freed), but also prevented anyone from even thinking about freeing Shmi -- that's the idea that I find implausible.

 

And yes, that final paragraph of yours is correct. You're describing what is called an idiot plot, and it's not good writing.

Palpatine once was the senator of Naboo, even Padme's election was controlled by him to overthrow Veruna. With other power in his hand he could easily know if Naboo send someone try to free Shmi and stop. I don't know why it's so hard to believe.

 

I think the Jedi's weakness is one of the best parts of the PT, they are the good guys but they got tons of flaws, that's why they fell in the end.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay what stuff? Naboo was peacefully taken. they didnt have an army and put up no fight. the droids just walked in). Naboo was occupied for roughly 3-5 days and the only damage done was perhaps blaster scoring in the palace. Or a couple of blown out walls from blowing up that tank in the beginning of the battle. Most of the final battle was fought in an empty field miles away. What "stuff" do they really need to do? They through a very elaborate celebration shortly after the battle after everything was cleaned up.

 

The Naboo and the gungans face little to no collateral damage.

 

Edit:

 

Also how old is Owen? Is he the offspring of Lars and Shmi? If so then she would of been freed a year or two after anakin went to the jedi. In Ep 2 he seemed a couple of years younger than Anakin and was dating Bereu.

 

They still lost people when they tried to destroy that droid ship, the gungans also lost some people in that battle. They need to repair those and talk with the gungan for some reward.

 

Are you saying they must send people to free Shmi immediately or it does not make sense?

[RDeanOU]

You are, once again, missing the point. The idea that Palpatine both prevented anyone from freeing Shmi, and simultaneously allowed her to live under the status quo for years -- subsequently to be freed by happenstance -- is self-contradictory on its face.

 

In any case, this entire line of discussion is irrelevant; preventing a sale is a wholly different matter from preventing any interest in a sale. I could buy the former; in fact I think a failed attempt to free Shmi would've made the story more interesting. It's the latter prospect, that somehow Palpatine not only prevented Shmi from being freed (except years later, when, you know, she was freed), but also prevented anyone from even thinking about freeing Shmi -- that's the idea that I find implausible.

 

And yes, that final paragraph of yours is correct. You're describing what is called an idiot plot, and it's not good writing.

 

This.

 

You can talk all you want about how Palpatine had an interest in keeping Shmi a slave. That isn't the problem. The problem is the dozens of people around Anakin that had an interest in freeing her and the means to do so, but were somehow too inexplicably stupid to recognize that. We see no evidence that any of these people even thought about the idea that freeing her might be a good thing to do and that is a pretty hard thing to accept.

 

This kind of terrible writing is rampant in the prequels. We constantly see people behaving in ways that are unbelievably stupid. They elect pre-pubescent children with zero qualifications or ability to run planets. They use obviously poison yellow gas to attempt assassination on a couple of Jedi when poisoning the drinks they are already drinking or just using colorless/odorless gas would do the trick. They elect Jar Jar (I stepped in poo isn't that hilarious) Binks as a Senator. They start wars against thousands of planets without any clear motivation or interest except because some scary guy in a black robe told them to. They land battalions of troops on the opposite side of the planet from their military objective when there are enormous open fields nearby and no military defending them.

 

It's really hard to accept that the Star Wars universe is seemingly populated by the most devastatingly stupid people in the universe. Characters need to behave in believable ways. The characters in the prequels only behave in ways that advance Lucas's stupid plot whether it is believable for them to do so or not.

[Invictos]

Palpatine once was the senator of Naboo, even Padme's election was controlled by him to overthrow Veruna. With other power in his hand he could easily know if Naboo send someone try to free Shmi and stop. I don't know why it's so hard to believe.

 

Yes, exactly. If anything, Palpatine should be loudly campaigning for Anakin's mother -- the mother of the hero of Naboo -- to be freed. That would be the most politically deft move he could make, if (as you assume) he knew about Shmi at that point in time. It would fit in with his goal of forming an emotional tie with Anakin. It would also fit in with his subsequent strategy to inflate Anakin's reputation as a hero (for propaganda purposes -- outlined most clearly in Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization). All of that would make sense, if we're assuming that Palpatine was as interested in Anakin as you believe he was, so early on.

 

Palpatine can't stop help that's never sent. We have no evidence that any help was sent. We have no evidence that he stopped it. In fact the direction of Shmi's life over the period between Episodes I and II suggests that Palpatine had no hand in it. All of the above points to a deficiency in the writing. That you can (try to) rationalize (painfully) a possible explanation for what is clearly a massive oversight on Lucas' part is not justification for that oversight.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Invictos

[RDeanOU]

Palpatine once was the senator of Naboo, even Padme's election was controlled by him to overthrow Veruna. With other power in his hand he could easily know if Naboo send someone try to free Shmi and stop. I don't know why it's so hard to believe.

 

I think the Jedi's weakness is one of the best parts of the PT, they are the good guys but they got tons of flaws, that's why they fell in the end.

 

Once again....you are not listening and you are missing the entire point. Palpatine didn't have to prevent the sale of Shmi because for some reason none of the people that would have a clear interest in doing so seemed to recognize that it was a thing they could try to do. That is unbelievably stupid. We are supposed to believe that dozens of characters that seem to be reasonably intelligent are too stupid to even think about trying to free her.

[RDeanOU]

They still lost people when they tried to destroy that droid ship, the gungans also lost some people in that battle. They need to repair those and talk with the gungan for some reward.

 

Are you saying they must send people to free Shmi immediately or it does not make sense?

 

So the fact that a few people and starfighters were lost in a battle paralyzed an entire planet from being able to free one slave?

 

Are you that blinded to the mental gymnastics you are going through in order to rationalize this?

[Slowpokeking]

This.

 

You can talk all you want about how Palpatine had an interest in keeping Shmi a slave. That isn't the problem. The problem is the dozens of people around Anakin that had an interest in freeing her and the means to do so, but were somehow too inexplicably stupid to recognize that. We see no evidence that any of these people even thought about the idea that freeing her might be a good thing to do and that is a pretty hard thing to accept.

 

This kind of terrible writing is rampant in the prequels. We constantly see people behaving in ways that are unbelievably stupid. They elect pre-pubescent children with zero qualifications or ability to run planets. They use obviously poison yellow gas to attempt assassination on a couple of Jedi when poisoning the drinks they are already drinking or just using colorless/odorless gas would do the trick. They elect Jar Jar (I stepped in poo isn't that hilarious) Binks as a Senator. They start wars against thousands of planets without any clear motivation or interest except because some scary guy in a black robe told them to. They land battalions of troops on the opposite side of the planet from their military objective when there are enormous open fields nearby and no military defending them.

 

It's really hard to accept that the Star Wars universe is seemingly populated by the most devastatingly stupid people in the universe. Characters need to behave in believable ways. The characters in the prequels only behave in ways that advance Lucas's stupid plot whether it is believable for them to do so or not.

 

Who said they didn't think about it?

 

Her election was behind Palpatine's manipulation. Even in real life, there were a bunch of very young monarchs. As long as there were powerful political power behind them create a good image, it's not a big problem. Same for Jar Jar, it doesn't matter he's stupid, he's friendly to the Republic, that's all they need.

 

What's wrong for using poison gas? They weren't really prepared for assassination and put that in the glasses would be easier to be detected by the Jedi.

 

As for the war, read Rule of Two and Darth Plagueis, the Sith had prepared for thousands of years to start this.

 

If you are so harsh about the PT, let's look at the OT.

 

The fully prepared troops lost to a bunch of little bears on Endor is not silly right?