Easy Fixes - Crafting Fix #1

[PolecatEZ]

Ceveat: These are easy fixes that could make the game just a bit better, I do have some radical ones in mind, but for now I'll stick to the easy ones.

 

Crafting Armormech/Synth/Armstech

 

Since the introduction of augmentable orange gear I seem to have a near useless assortment of craftable items on my lists. The real tragedy is that the look of these items is often better than the craftable oranges.

 

Simple solution:

 

1) Make ALL crafted gear moddable. Greens, blues, purples...everything. I think at one point in the beta it was at least partially like this, so it could be done again. My guess is that this is already in for most gear, just hidden.

 

2) The items would contain mods that total up to the original stats.

 

3) The catch is that the original mods cannot be removed, only overwritten. This keeps artificers and cybertechs in business as well. Mods added later could be removed at the standard cost...or not to keep the economy flowing.

 

4) Orange gear would continue to be mod free and be unrestricted for inserting and removing mods.

 

5) Recipes could be added for some quest loots in lieu of taking the actual item.

 

Yes, its a bandaid, but an effective one. Not sure if this could also apply to quest loots and random drops, but this would have advantages and disadvantages to the crafting economy.

Edited May 6, 2012 by PolecatEZ

[HeavensAgent]

The reason this was removed was that the effect was opposite of what you imply: No one used the crafted equipment. Demand for crafted items was essentially reduced to zero.

[PolecatEZ]

Then leave it in for only crafted items then, as I said, I was iffy on the issue of quest loots/drops being moddable and now that question is answered.

 

Besides, the demand for most craftable non-orange gear is now zero anyways, how could it get worse?

Edited May 6, 2012 by PolecatEZ

[HeavensAgent]

Then leave it in for only crafted items then, as I said, I was iffy on the issue of quest loots/drops being moddable and now that question is answered.

 

Besides, the demand for most craftable non-orange gear is now zero anyways, how could it get worse?

You misunderstand; when it was in beta, ONLY crafted equipment featured this mechanic; it killed demand of the crafted equipment entirely.

[PolecatEZ]

What was the reasoning behind this, guess I'm not seeing it. Did people just hate moddable gear then for some reason? Players were only buying mods then as they were leveling instead of armor? Would that be an issue now that most players are level 50 and cosmetics uber alles?

 

Remove the damned mod vendors then also please. Get cybertechs to work.

Edited May 6, 2012 by PolecatEZ

[HeavensAgent]

They didn't use any customizable equipment at all. I'm an avid crafter, so naturally I asked others why they were uninterested in my goods. The response I most often received was that the system was found to be too overwhelming. Rather than deal with it, the majority felt it was better to simply avoid the system altogether.

 

That particular build demonstrated that players don't want customization to be imposed on them in such an overwhelming manner.

[PolecatEZ]

Well now its all they ask for. I keep about 100 items on the GTN at any given time, and orange augmented is ALL I can actually sell for a price anywhere above material cost. Perhaps now its time for a trial run.

 

Perhaps another solution would be that a crit on crafting returns a moddable piece of the same gear instead of a regular one.

[livnthedream]

Well now its all they ask for. I keep about 100 items on the GTN at any given time, and orange augmented is ALL I can actually sell for a price anywhere above material cost. Perhaps now its time for a trial run.

 

Perhaps another solution would be that a crit on crafting returns a moddable piece of the same gear instead of a regular one.

 

weapons would be pointless as the actual dps/weapon range matters much more than the actual stats on them. armor however, you do get more longevity this way, but its pretty much just as expensive as making orange gear, so i dont really see the point.

[HeavensAgent]

Well now its all they ask for. I keep about 100 items on the GTN at any given time, and orange augmented is ALL I can actually sell for a price anywhere above material cost. Perhaps now its time for a trial run.

 

Perhaps another solution would be that a crit on crafting returns a moddable piece of the same gear instead of a regular one.

The current implementation is fundamentally different, though, than what was in place inthat particular beta build and what you recommend here. As of now the crafted orange shells are the only way to obtain Augmented end-game gear. There is literally no other option. This demand will diminish significantly, and possibly disappear altogether, when Augmentation Kits are added to the game.

[PolecatEZ]

weapons would be pointless as the actual dps/weapon range matters much more than the actual stats on them. armor however, you do get more longevity this way, but its pretty much just as expensive as making orange gear, so i dont really see the point.

 

Pure and simple, cosmetics. The only point to any armor right now is cosmetic. As stated in the original post, some crafted non-orange pieces look pretty good actually...imperial uniforms, for example. The only reason why an endgame player buys crafted orange armor is for a particular look, given a choice between augmented pieces. The cool stuff sells better, guaranteed.

 

Weapons are the same thing, cosmetics. Lightsabers are all little doggy fetch-sticks no matter their name, but gun users (especially snipers) love their gun looks and some are definitely cooler than others.

 

And, BTW, dps is effected by barrel mod, not the weapon itself. Weapon range is all the same with basic attacks, you're either melee or ranged, sniper rifles and smuggler pistols shoot the same range.

[livnthedream]

Pure and simple, cosmetics. The only point to any armor right now is cosmetic. As stated in the original post, some crafted non-orange pieces look pretty good actually...imperial uniforms, for example. The only reason why an endgame player buys crafted orange armor is for a particular look, given a choice between augmented pieces. The cool stuff sells better, guaranteed.

 

care to tell me what is "cool"? i know i have had a much better spread selling orange armor (i have all but 5 recipes now between synthweaving and armormech, including both empire and republic) and while there are some that sell better, all of them have sold at a fairly stable rate. enough that i actually have to spend time farming on planets in addition to missions to keep 1-2 of each stocked on the gtn, not to mention the specific buy orders i get.

 

Weapons are the same thing, cosmetics. Lightsabers are all little doggy fetch-sticks no matter their name, but gun users (especially snipers) love their gun looks and some are definitely cooler than others.

 

you are actually very wrong with lightsabers too, besides the very different tonal changes, hilt does matter, atleast to me. i feel as strongly about the hilts on my sorc and jugg as i do about the guns on my sniper, commando, and mercenary.

 

And, BTW, dps is effected by barrel mod, not the weapon itself. Weapon range is all the same with basic attacks, you're either melee or ranged, sniper rifles and smuggler pistols shoot the same range.

 

so you want all weapons to be orange? i know its the barrel mod that scales orange weapons, however the very fact that they are orange is what allows them to scale, not the mods placed within. what your original premise stated was merely changing the stats within the weapons themselves. with all of that being said, bioware has already stated that they are working towards making all skins available in an orange format (most of them already are, even if they are not currently craftable) and with the upcoming changes to augs and such there is no real reason for this.

[PolecatEZ]

care to tell me what is "cool"? i know i have had a much better spread selling orange armor (i have all but 5 recipes now between synthweaving and armormech, including both empire and republic) and while there are some that sell better, all of them have sold at a fairly stable rate. enough that i actually have to spend time farming on planets in addition to missions to keep 1-2 of each stocked on the gtn, not to mention the specific buy orders i get.

I challenge you to actually track what sells in what numbers. Speaking only of orange, there's some armor, even with augs, that I can't give away, and other armor that goes within hours of posting.

 

you are actually very wrong with lightsabers too, besides the very different tonal changes, hilt does matter, atleast to me. i feel as strongly about the hilts on my sorc and jugg as i do about the guns on my sniper, commando, and mercenary.

I wasn't wrong, I was baiting Cpt. Buzzkill in to actually agreeing with me on something. But unfortunately, its also a moot point as almost ALL lightsabers are already completely moddable save the new legacy ones and maye a quest reward or two.

 

so you want all weapons to be orange? i know its the barrel mod that scales orange weapons, however the very fact that they are orange is what allows them to scale, not the mods placed within. what your original premise stated was merely changing the stats within the weapons themselves.

Your buddy, Cpt. Killjoy, didn't seem to understand that, I was addressing him, sir. My original premise said no such thing. No stats would be changed, simply that mods would be visible and would add up to the same original stats.

 

with all of that being said, bioware has already stated that they are working towards making all skins available in an orange format (most of them already are, even if they are not currently craftable) and with the upcoming changes to augs and such there is no real reason for this.

 

That's great, but it doesn't address the issue of the catalogue of RE'd greens, blues, and purples that I've sunk literally millions of mats into to create that are unsellable not useful except as costume pieces for my crafting companions. I don't want to hunt down a duplicate orange recipe (though this does address half the issue), I want my gear also saleable and the economy to not look like Bush Jr. was a consultant for SWTOR.

Edited May 6, 2012 by PolecatEZ

[BenjaminminU]

I have a better idea, Reverse Engineering craftable blues gives a chance to learn a schematic for that design, but moddable This way everyone can get the exact look they want, without seeing an awesome look that can't be modded to better stats.

[PolecatEZ]

I have a better idea, Reverse Engineering craftable blues gives a chance to learn a schematic for that design, but moddable This way everyone can get the exact look they want, without seeing an awesome look that can't be modded to better stats.

 

From previous - Perhaps another solution would be that a crit on crafting returns a moddable piece of the same gear instead of a regular one.

 

Your idea works also in about the same way, just on the RE instead of the crit. What would be the relative merits of either approach?

 

Now we're getting somewhere constructive, I like it.

[livnthedream]

I challenge you to actually track what sells in what numbers. Speaking only of orange, there's some armor, even with augs, that I can't give away, and other armor that goes within hours of posting.

 

i have, and its pretty even across the board. but then i also dont list all of them at the same price point, either because of competition, or because some of them i dont personally care for. attempting to state across the board that some are "cool" and some are not is pretty foolish though. beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder.

 

I wasn't wrong, I was baiting Cpt. Buzzkill in to actually agreeing with me on something. But unfortunately, its also a moot point as almost ALL lightsabers are already completely moddable save the new legacy ones and maye a quest reward or two.

 

thats inaccurate also. there are a number of non moddable lightsabers, not as many as guns, but then guns also have a much higher number and variety. if you actually break it down percentage wise there are far more moddable guns than there are lightsabers. especially when you take into account what role they were originally designed to take.

 

Your buddy, Cpt. Killjoy, didn't seem to understand that, I was addressing him, sir. My original premise said no such thing. No stats would be changed, simply that mods would be visible and would add up to the same original stats.

 

first, he isnt my buddy, we happen to disagree on a number of things. second, after a re read it appears i did misinterpret what you were saying, i aplogize. as heaven stated there was a system in place similar to what you stated, where most things were moddable, but didnt level with you. in response bioware created the orange shell where the gear, and therefore look, could actually level with you. it sounded very much to me that you were referencing that system, or one very much like it.

 

That's great, but it doesn't address the issue of the catalogue of RE'd greens, blues, and purples that I've sunk literally millions of mats into to create that are unsellable not useful except as costume pieces for my crafting companions. I don't want to hunt down a duplicate orange recipe (though this does address half the issue), I want my gear also saleable and the economy to not look like Bush Jr. was a consultant for SWTOR.

 

sort of. going up to purple, especially for rare drop patterns to t2 level, is bis for that particular level. orange items however are easier. its like that all while leveling, with it only losing sight at endgame, where even then they are generally columi level, and close/better than rakata when correctly auged. while i know its hard to sell them, its mostly due to players ignorance. the vast majority dont understand how dr works, or really how stats work in general. they all think that stacking main stat is the absolute priority (which is also, sorta true, but it depends on your other stats, how far you are from caps, the amount of power on the item etc etc). orange gear is just flat easier, and gives you enough control over your stats, in addition to very easy content, thats its more than "good enough".

 

personally i would rather see all of the set items removed and just to go to a completely orange based gear system with op bosses dropping mods/enhancements/crafting mats and tokens merely unlocking shells.

[PolecatEZ]

personally i would rather see all of the set items removed and just to go to a completely orange based gear system with op bosses dropping mods/enhancements/crafting mats and tokens merely unlocking shells.

 

Took two pages, but we got somewhere. I was trying to figure out a way to salvage the existing system, but this would be the much bigger bandaid.

 

As far as aesthetics go, there's "in the eye of the beholder" and there's "outright fugly". In the real world there is a certain set of standards of beauty, for example, with cars where one will pay a premium for the slick looking sports car because the look says it all. These standards will shift with time and culture, but are fairly consistent within the spectrum. The Greeks also defined some universal standards of beauty that are in use to this day, and your own body is wired to find certain pitches and rythms in music pleasing and others not so.

 

Say you had two cars with identical engines under the hood, would you take the '74 Pinto Wagon body or the '99 Ferrari Testerosa body? How many would agree if put to a vote? Everything is quantifiable. Marketing exists not to manipulate you, but to manipulate the masses by selling them an aesthetically pleasing dream...and who are the masses? A lot of yous put together.

[HeavensAgent]

I have a better idea, Reverse Engineering craftable blues gives a chance to learn a schematic for that design, but moddable This way everyone can get the exact look they want, without seeing an awesome look that can't be modded to better stats.

I prefer this approach myself, though I would recommend the orange schematic result from the second-tier unlocked schematics, which are always going to be artifact-quality (purple).

From previous - Perhaps another solution would be that a crit on crafting returns a moddable piece of the same gear instead of a regular one.

 

Your idea works also in about the same way, just on the RE instead of the crit. What would be the relative merits of either approach?

I'm not fond of the idea of critical results returning an orange shell. This is going to artificially inflate the rarity of these appearance styles; while I believe there should be some effort involved in obtaining the appearance you desire, I also feel all styles should be equally available.

 

This method would make it nearly impossible for crafters to make orange shells to order, as well. Due to the random nature of critical results, its impossible for one to know how many times it would take to produce the shell. This also means that materials expended in the process of obtaining these shells would be random, resulting in fluctuating crafting costs that cannot be disclosed to the buyer before the item has been crafted. Additionally, if a crafter has a bad run of luck it could literally be impossible to sell an obtained orange shell at a profit, should the materials expended in its production far exceed the average baseline. It creates a very poor business model.

Edited May 6, 2012 by HeavensAgent

[livnthedream]

As far as aesthetics go, there's "in the eye of the beholder" and there's "outright fugly". In the real world there is a certain set of standards of beauty, for example, with cars where one will pay a premium for the slick looking sports car because the look says it all. These standards will shift with time and culture, but are fairly consistent within the spectrum. The Greeks also defined some universal standards of beauty that are in use to this day, and your own body is wired to find certain pitches and rythms in music pleasing and others not so.

 

i understand what you are saying, but i disagree. i personally cant stand both the anointed zeyd-cloth set (especially the helm) and warrior pulsing sets. in fact, pretty much all of the sets with the triangle fin thing on the back look like utter garbage imho. however i have received 5 requests for the zeyd cloth, and 4 for the warrior pulsing, and im not on a high pop server. that alone tells me that some people like them. so while you and i dont, or even the majority done, some one does enough that they sought me out to crit craft the sets for them.

 

 

@heaven. the crit craft is actually really simple, multiply mats by your avg crit chance (im coming in at just about 1 in 6, 17.86% to be precise, but you can use the basic crit chances that bioware gave us if you would rather) and calculate that way. i generally just control the market high enough that i can charge enough to more than cover my losses. some sets i make more margin on than others, but it all evens out to such an extent that i have more credits than i really know what to do with, other than control the gtn.

[HeavensAgent]

@heaven. the crit craft is actually really simple, multiply mats by your avg crit chance (im coming in at just about 1 in 6, 17.86% to be precise, but you can use the basic crit chances that bioware gave us if you would rather) and calculate that way. i generally just control the market high enough that i can charge enough to more than cover my losses. some sets i make more margin on than others, but it all evens out to such an extent that i have more credits than i really know what to do with, other than control the gtn.

That's not going to work though, because that's not how critical crafting functions. In some cases you'll get a critical success on the first attempt. In some cases you won't get a single critical success in 100 attempts (it's not fun). Additionally, you are still unable to tell buyers how much an item will cost before you create it. Nor can you tell the buyer when the item can be expected.

 

What you put forth here only functions if the occurrence of critical successes are static and predictable. That simply is not how the system works.

[AmorphousCro]

I love the idea of having one of the possible results from reverse engineering being an orange shell. As an Armormech, there are 3 or so sets that are really appealing. The best I can create is purple gear which becomes outdated due to low base stats. My possible customers for this gear is very limited.

 

With the exception of augmentable gear, everything an armormech can make to sell is outdated by Tionese, If i could specialize and reverse engineer for instance the Alloy Heavy armor customizable schematics, then my market vastly improves.

 

Honestly though, this is all just moot if a style tab system were incorporated. People could buy my green gear just to consume the style. Everyone gets customization they want, crafters sell everything they can make for both style and stats.

Edited May 7, 2012 by AmorphousCro

[livnthedream]

I love the idea of having one of the possible results from reverse engineering being an orange shell. As an Armormech, there are 3 or so sets that are really appealing. The best I can create is purple gear which becomes outdated due to low base stats. My possible customers for this gear is very limited.

 

With the exception of augmentable gear, everything an armormech can make to sell is outdated by Tionese, If i could specialize and reverse engineer for instance the Alloy Heavy armor customizable schematics, then my market vastly improves.

 

Honestly though, this is all just moot if a style tab system were incorporated. People could buy my green gear just to consume the style. Everyone gets customization they want, crafters sell everything they can make for both style and stats.

 

i will agree that the large amount of armormech gear is fairly unappealing aesthetic wise, but then that also falls into the same realm as most of the no force user armor in the game anyway. the sets with the giant pipes or weird helms just really doesnt fit for me, and most others going by general preference. couple that with how much more expensive it is to craft in comparison to the synthweaving gear for the majority i can understand part of the armormech complaint.

 

that being said, you are flat wrong in terms of itemization being outgeared before tionese. especially the nicer blue patterns, re to t2 is on par, with columi. you can easily walk into hm/nm in all crafted gear and beat every dps check assuming you are specced and playing correctly. optimally itemized pieces are really hard to beat, and cant be easily beaten outside of a perfectly modded columi piece, which takes much longer, and far more drops.

 

That's not going to work though, because that's not how critical crafting functions. In some cases you'll get a critical success on the first attempt. In some cases you won't get a single critical success in 100 attempts (it's not fun). Additionally, you are still unable to tell buyers how much an item will cost before you create it. Nor can you tell the buyer when the item can be expected.

 

What you put forth here only functions if the occurrence of critical successes are static and predictable. That simply is not how the system works.

 

not really no. while you will lose money on some, assuming you calculate correctly you will overall make a much larger profit. its all about margin. its the very same principle i have used to make my 4.9m credits in pure net (as in after paying off the overhead) since 1.2 has gone live. with my 5007 crafts, 894 crits, im willing to say i have a sufficient enough sample size to say its a working system.

[HeavensAgent]

not really no. while you will lose money on some, assuming you calculate correctly you will overall make a much larger profit. its all about margin. its the very same principle i have used to make my 4.9m credits in pure net (as in after paying off the overhead) since 1.2 has gone live. with my 5007 crafts, 894 crits, im willing to say i have a sufficient enough sample size to say its a working system.

When you craft at such a volume then yes, it evens out over time. That said, such a level of activity is not an option for the majority of crafters. The crit-shell system could cripple those who don't craft as many items as you, and it's unrealistic for your example to be used as a metric for crafting in general. Let's face it, most crafters have not been in game enough since 1.2 to create 1000 items, let alone five times that amount.

 

The information you present is an outlier, and though still valid as a demonstration of the percentage of critical success rates, it should not be considered when making changes to the general crafting system.

[livnthedream]

When you craft at such a volume then yes, it evens out over time. That said, such a level of activity is not an option for the majority of crafters. The crit-shell system could cripple those who don't craft as many items as you, and it's unrealistic for your example to be used as a metric for crafting in general. Let's face it, most crafters have not been in game enough since 1.2 to create 1000 items, let alone five times that amount.

 

The information you present is an outlier, and though still valid as a demonstration of the percentage of critical success rates, it should not be considered when making changes to the general crafting system.

 

at volume or not it still evens out over time regardless. its how "rng" actually functions and why sims are always a better judge of balance and potential than actual parses. for me personally (as my numbers show) im actually trending lower than what my general crit rates should be, yet i still have made a very large sum of credits employing it.

 

that being said, aug slots need to remain "difficult" to obtain. not only are they not a requirement (as nothing is balanced around them, per dev statement) but also because how difficult it is to obtain directly impacts value. its not the sole consideration, but it is a chunk of the formula.