Force Burst - Obvious replacement for Chunk a Clunker

[Dyvim]

Update:

 

The agent has a companion named Raina Temple...and she is force sensitive...and she ALSO has a power called Force Burst...with ANOTHER animation, different from Ashara's. And this animation is exactly what some people had envisioned when suggesting a Project replacement...basically its a beefed up "force blow up a container" animation...

 

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1658/forceburst.jpg

 

again, blue background on hoth, but you get the idea....

 

So, on the sith side, there are TWO companions with TWO separate animations for a skill called Force Burst. Either animation would make a great instant replacement for chunk a clunker...and be a better mirror for shock.

 

 

On the Sith side....which was done infinitely better than pubs...Ashara has a skill called Force Burst...its is 4m range, but it is obviously well suited for any ranged use...it makes a force sphere of damage appear around the target...sound familiar? You reach out your hand and the target is damaged...JUST LIKE shock...

 

I'll post a screenshot soon....

 

EDIT:

 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8731/forceburstvsshock.jpg

 

Side by side comparison of Force Burst and Shock. Note: the blue background on hoth is not the best to show off the ani, but oh well, you get the idea... Both are instant animations and both involve a simple hand gesture, followed by the direct effect on the target....no projectile involved...Force burst impacts the target with force energy while shock electrifies the target. Really, this is exactly the kind of mirror animation we need....no delay. No environmental issues. It just works, and is instant.

 

BW fix the mirror disrepancy with project. Jedi arent junk throwers...fix this @#$%, please....

Edited May 12, 2012 by Dyvim

[Henshini]

They should just swap the animations for project and Disturbance, easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

[Itathor]

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/fsrweb/impforceblast.jpg

 

project^ and telekinetic throw with glow damage effect.

[Itathor]

But i know what you mean,it would fix that delay crap.Bioware come on now i know ,i hope you do better.

[Evastian]

BW fix the mirror disrepancy with project. Jedi arent junk throwers...fix this @#$%, please....

Why do you want to get rid of the COOLEST SPELL IN THE GAME

 

Also, what does your sig mean, is that actually from lore?

 

Also, the only valid argument against Project is that it has travel time.

[Dyvim]

Why do you want to get rid of the COOLEST SPELL IN THE GAME

 

Also, what does your sig mean, is that actually from lore?

 

Also, the only valid argument against Project is that it has travel time.

 

That delay is enough of a problem to get it scrapped IMMEDIATELY. But it has other problems, too.

 

Well tastes vary, but in terms of jedi, and the mechanics of this game, there is nothing "cool" about it.

 

For starters, it is ridiculous. Magically conjuring environmentally inappropriate junk out of the ground, endlessly? Rocks out of starship decks? Droid scrap yards magically at your feet, everywhere? It is BEYOND STUPID. Unless you were an earth conjuring shaman, where your term "spell" would apply...but jedi are NOT earth conjuring shamans....again, we're still at BEYOND STUPID.

 

Try watching the six star wars movies and then tell me who throws junk. Clue, it isnt jedi. The only time a jedi throws a rock is when Luke does it in RotJ WITH HIS HAND to close the door on the rancor. In fact, EVERY SINGLE SITH throws junk or objects at targets, even Maul. In FACT, sith throw junk MORE THAN they choke and MORE THAN they use lightning. Im sorry little things like the SIX star wars movies, the ultimate source of canon, are inconvenient for wannabe junk throwers, but facts are stubborn things.

 

Now, have jedi thrown objects AT targets. Yes, RARELY. Jedi have also choked and also shot green AND yellow lightning. But RARELY. Sith throw things MUCH more and in fact ever since they have been making video games with lightsabers and force powers in them, junk throwing, if included, has been a darkside skill (Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight from 15 years ago). So you do NOT take a rarely used skill and turn it into the BASIS of the jedi force using class...and turn them into junk throwers with project and pebblestorm. It is entirely unacceptable. And makes the class a silly joke fit for a bad episode of robot chicken.

 

As far as VALID arguments against project (and tbh, you dont need anymore of any argument OTHER than the delay, that is MORE than enough to get this piece of crap flushed):

 

1) It breaks the mirror paradigm...shock is instant damage, project is delayed

2) That delay gives opponents time to react that Shock does not. Opponents see the rock and can pop defensive CDs to mitigate or stealth away from them.

3) The delay is a crucial, CRUCIAL handicap in pvp. I fire project, and instant later my opponent fires shock, we both die. SHould never happen. Again, the DELAY gives your enemy TIME to do things they shouldnt get to do.

4) Since some procs dont fire until the damage ticks, again the DELAY impacts buff procs and can cause you to miss them...like particle acceleration. Shock users NEVER have that problem.

5) It violates lore. Jedi are not junk throwers, sith are if anyone is. This started with Vader in ESB. Yoda throws one car back at palpitane...after palp throws 7+ at him. Anakin throws some droids in a geo factory. Of course Anakin also slaughters women and children and gets married in the same movie, so I see that as more of a Darth Vader preview, like so much of what he does. So basically jedi use Choke in the movies about as much as they throw junk. And they NEVER throw rocks or pebblestorms in them.

 

BTW, as far as my Sig...it is from the original clone wars cartoon series, and is a quote from Master Luminara and her padawan, and was used while they were in a crystal cave.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

They should just swap the animations for project and Disturbance, easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

 

Don't get me wrong, swapping out the ani's for Project and Disturbance is a good idea, and would be better than what we have now. But shock doesnt have a projectile...you reach out your hand and the target is electrified. Force Burst does the same thing...you reach out your hand and the target is impacted with force energy. It is a true analog.

 

But I suggest you check out and pay attention to Force Burst in the game, if you havent already. It is, truly, the closest ani for a mirror to shock I have seen in the game. And ironically you only see it on the sith side with your corrupted padawan...lol.

 

Here is a photo with a side by side comparison....

 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8731/forceburstvsshock.jpg

Edited May 9, 2012 by Sireene
reference to removed post

[Evastian]

Dyvim

 

Force Telekinesis is an established part of Star Wars lore and it has no dark side connotations. Project is an example of Force Telekinesis.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

You may have an argument that it often throws unusual objects (for example, rocks while inside of a space ship) and that is a fair argument.

[Dyvim]

Dyvim

 

Force Telekinesis is an established part of Star Wars lore and it has no dark side connotations. Project is an example of Force Telekinesis.

 

That's really all there is to it.

 

You may have an argument that it often throws unusual objects (for example, rocks while inside of a space ship) and that is a fair argument.

 

You should read a wiki. Here ya go:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis

 

Force telekinesis includes various applications, some are obviously darkside, or predominantly used by the darkside. Want to claim choke has no darkside connotations? lol. It is one of the applications, just like junk throwing...and junk throwing has just as many, if not MORE darkside connotations, as MORE SITH THREW JUNK than choked. FACT. So yes some applications are FULL of darkside connotations. That is REALLY all there is to it. When you are dealing with a skill, like junk throwing at people, that was first shown to us in ESB by Vader, and was first put into a lucas video game 15 years ago SPECIFICALLY as a DARKSIDE skill, and then you want to try to say that it has no darkside connotations? That is an uphill slog. A ridiculous, untenable one....

 

Shouldnt have to explain that, perhaps you are just ignorant of the lore. The most basic concept, to quote "Telekinesis, abbreviated TK,[1] was a neutral ability that most Force-sensitives had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction. " would be neutral. Certain specific applications, like choke, or throwing objects at people have always been considered MORE darkside, though.

 

Like the wiki says "Although it is more commonly used by the Sith, it is used by Jedi as well." or "Although users of the dark side reveled in using the power, especially for humiliation, this power was used by the light side as well." This applies to many things. Like choke. We saw Luke choke in RotJ, but no one would argue that choke isnt more darkside, just like no one that has seen the movies or played the prior games should argue that junk chunking isnt more darkside. Clearly, if you can handle watching movies and counting, you can see that sith throw objects about 15x as much as jedi do. FACT. Sith throw objects, EVERY SINGLE SITH IN THE MOVIES, and they do it more than they use ANY OTHER ranged attack. FACT. In six movies, a jedi NEVER used the force to throw a rock at someone...FACT. Or make a pebblestorm. FACT. So you want to base the class on something, in SIX MOVIES, jedi NEVER DID ONCE? Really? Doesnt that strike you as unreasonable? Yoda threw ONE car back at palpitane. Anaking threw a couple of droids. Thats it. Yoda's was reflective, returning something BACK at his attacker. Anakin was giving us a Darth Vader preview in the same movie he slaughtered women and children and got married in...and STILL not rock throwing, by any jedi.

 

So as I have stated, yes jedi can throw things. In the movies jedi do it about as much as jedi use choke. Sith do it more. So basing the jedi class on something, in this case junk throwing, that is not particularly jedi, and in FACT done by Sith an order of magnitude MORE, is pretty STUPID, and inconsistent with the lore. It isnt just some ancillary skill, junk/debris throwing through Project and Throw are the SIGNATURE SKILLS of the class in this game.

 

There are plenty of applications of telekinetics that have ALWAYS been considered neutral however...push, pull, saber throw...and have been classified as such in all the games...unlike junk throwing, which has ALWAYS been classified as a darkside power until this game. FACT.

 

But back to the wiki...here is an excellent passage since it mentions the progenitor of THIS game: "As one of the few offensive powers not fundamentally dark in nature, Force Push frequently forms the cornerstone of a Jedi's offensive arsenal. In Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and its sequel there are three levels of Force Push. The first is the conventional Force Push, which knocks back an opponent; the second is called Force Whirlwind, which lifts off an opponent from the ground and creates a whirlwind around him; the last is more like the first one, except that it affects a far greater range in front of the player. "

 

Force Burst is a variant of Force Push. Force Push (and its variants) SHOULD be the signature, cornerstone skillset of the jedi caster class in this game. It is MORE in line with the lore, avoids the lunacy of junk throwing with a craptastic animation that has a delay its mirror doesnt have, and looks good in any environment as opposed to rocks and droid scraps being pull up out of starship decks or other wildly inappropriate items and places.

 

So back to the TOPIC. Have you seen Force Burst in the game, and what do you think about it as a replacement? Why?

Edited May 9, 2012 by Dyvim

[Noctrin]

I agree with your assessments here, Dy. While I dont really dislike the skill itself, I struggle to see the fit for sage and even more so for shadows. I actually have a bigger problem kinetic shield though fof shadows. Suddenly achieving gravitational pull and having rocks orbit me doesn't suit the theme of the shadow in my opinion. Edited May 9, 2012 by Noctrin

[entropicdecay]

Yep nice find, Force Burst looks like a good replacement. They should still change the animation for Disturbance to be the current Project one though because the Project animation is pretty awesome.

[Dyvim]

I agree with your assessments here, Dy. While I dont really dislike the skill itself, I struggle to see the fit for sage and even more so for shadows. I actually have a bigger problem kinetic shield though fof shadows. Suddenly achieving gravitational pull and having rocks orbit me doesn't suit the theme of the shadow in my opinion.

 

Thx. I agree completely about kinetic ward...the circling rocks from nowhere are just as ridiculous, AND you can outrun the circle where it lags in you or behind you...at least that used to be the case, I havent used it in forever. Nor will I on my shadow. Again, the Sith version, dark ward, has an infinitely cooler animation. Its like some idiot who never saw a star wars movie and had no imagination, whatsoever, decided that jedi = rock, and no one pulled head from arse long enough to catch it. But yeah, I've posted several times with suggestions for changing that one, too. But it is not as necessary to use as Project, which I have to use every single combat rotation on my shadow...

 

 

Yep nice find, Force Burst looks like a good replacement. They should still change the animation for Disturbance to be the current Project one though because the Project animation is pretty awesome.

 

Thx. I would be ok with that...IF:

 

1) Project is changed to something like Force Burst

2) TK throw is changed to something like a channeled disturbance or tk wave, or some kind of channeled shockwave Satele style effect, basically moving jedi away from the galactic junk thrower niche...AND

3) They fix it so that the animation isnt ignorant of the environment. Having watched the animation with two accounts, on side by side computers, I saw that EACH client rolls on that random table. So what looks like a rock to you might be that stupid stone cauldron with three legs on your opponents screen. It is a REAL crap implementation, for a craptastic animation concept.

[Evastian]

Dyvim, if we're really going to go 100% by the lore, then Jedi should be forced into tank and healing only, and never dps. Rationale: Yoda is quoted as saying the following:

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

 

This happens in Episode 5.

 

Why do I say this?

 

Because the ONLY rationale you can have for throwing projectiles is that it is an aggressive action. By "aggressive action", I mean that it hurts other people. Which, by extension, means that DPSing a foe is considered a dark side choice.

 

The reason you don't see light sided Jedi use force telekinesis to injure a foe physically with projectiles in the films is precisely because, in the films, light sided Jedi avoid conflict at ALL costs, and when forced to fight, only fight defensively, prefering to disarm their foes rather than kill them.

 

Let me put it this way: What quality does Force Burst have that Project does not? How is Project a dark side move, while Force Burst is light side? I don't exactly remember any light side Jedi using Force Burst in the films either. And for that matter, I don't exactly remember any light side Jedi fighting aggressively (Read: Injuring, ie dps) either.

 

If you would prefer force usage be limited solely to crowd control effects, then by all means, roll a Jedi Knight. You can force push, force leap, use the force to increase your combat prowess, et cetera. Sure, they wear heavy armor, but I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan wore armor in the Clone Wars cartoons.

[Vales]

Dyvim, if we're really going to go 100% by the lore, then Jedi should be forced into tank and healing only, and never dps. Rationale: Yoda is quoted as saying the following:

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

 

This happens in Episode 5.

 

Why do I say this?

 

Because the ONLY rationale you can have for throwing projectiles is that it is an aggressive action. By "aggressive action", I mean that it hurts other people. Which, by extension, means that DPSing a foe is considered a dark side choice.

 

The reason you don't see light sided Jedi use force telekinesis to injure a foe physically with projectiles in the films is precisely because, in the films, light sided Jedi avoid conflict at ALL costs, and when forced to fight, only fight defensively, prefering to disarm their foes rather than kill them.

 

Let me put it this way: What quality does Force Burst have that Project does not? How is Project a dark side move, while Force Burst is light side? I don't exactly remember any light side Jedi using Force Burst in the films either. And for that matter, I don't exactly remember any light side Jedi fighting aggressively (Read: Injuring, ie dps) either.

 

If you would prefer force usage be limited solely to crowd control effects, then by all means, roll a Jedi Knight. You can force push, force leap, use the force to increase your combat prowess, et cetera. Sure, they wear heavy armor, but I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan wore armor in the Clone Wars cartoons.

 

And again it begs the question, where is the difference cutting an opponent in half or smashing him with a rock?

[Evastian]

And again it begs the question, where is the difference cutting an opponent in half or smashing him with a rock?

Well, to be honest, I'm not even sure.

 

In the films, Jedi don't ever actually hit their opponents. They hit their weapons, and they hit droids, sure, but they don't actually plunge their lightsabers into the hearts of their foes. They always stay their attacks when it's clear they've won. They just go around parrying like madmen and their attacks are usually moreso to try to disarm their opponents than to actually slay them and there are few exceptions and the majority of them involve inner battles with the dark side.

[Vales]

Well, to be honest, I'm not even sure.

 

In the films, Jedi don't ever actually hit their opponents. They hit their weapons, and they hit droids, sure, but they don't actually plunge their lightsabers into the hearts of their foes. They always stay their attacks when it's clear they've won. They just go around parrying like madmen and their attacks are usually moreso to try to disarm their opponents than to actually slay them and there are few exceptions and the majority of them involve inner battles with the dark side.

 

I must have imagined Mace Windu decapitating Jango Fett then.

Or Obi Wan cutting off the arm of that criminal in the Mos Eisley cantina.

and Mace Windu would have killed the Emperor no question about that. In fact his fighting style is according to canon sources borderline dark sided.

Obi Wan cut off Anakins legs when he tried to jump over him.

Mace Windu crushed General Grievous heart albeit that was no in the movie.

Yoda threw back a senate pod to Sidious clearly intented to kill him.

 

Sorry, but even Jedi move to kill. They might view it as a lest resort option only, but they still do it.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Vales

[Evastian]

So, let me categorize the list of attacks you've given me:

 

3 listed events about Mace Windu.

2 listed events where Obi-Wan removed someone's limb.

1 listed event where Yoda used Project.

 

So, of these 3, here are my rationalizations:

 

#1: Regarding Mace Windu, here is a portion from the entry on him on Wookiepedia, with important parts bolded:

Ultimately, Mace Windu's true motivation for all he did was a divergence from Jedi philosophy, as his personal belief system was an extremist viewpoint of peace at all costs. In his mind, peace was created by civilization, and he viewed the Republic as the ultimate civilization, thus developing an attachment towards the institution, and leaving him with a willingness to do anything required to preserve the Republic, even if it meant violating Jedi philosophy. This proved to be his ultimate downfall, when he resolved to execute the seemingly helpless Chancellor Palpatine, an unarmed opponent, spurring Anakin Skywalker into action.

 

#2: Re: Obi-Wan, one way of disarming somebody is to literally remove their arm. That isn't a killing blow, especially in the age of cybernetics.

 

#3: So is Project a dark side move or not? Because that's what Yoda is doing there.

 

BTW, 5 of the 6 listed events were in the prequels which take the seat as the #1 disappointment of all time in cinema, because the original trilogy was so good and everyone had such high standards for the prequels, and then George Lucas took a big steaming dump all over the faces of America with the prequels, which are most well known for their convoluted plots and emotionless characters.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Sireene
IC

[Dyvim]

Dyvim, if we're really going to go 100% by the lore, then Jedi should be forced into tank and healing only, and never dps. Rationale: Yoda is quoted as saying the following:

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

 

This happens in Episode 5.

 

Why do I say this?

 

Because the ONLY rationale you can have for throwing projectiles is that it is an aggressive action. By "aggressive action", I mean that it hurts other people. Which, by extension, means that DPSing a foe is considered a dark side choice.

 

The reason you don't see light sided Jedi use force telekinesis to injure a foe physically with projectiles in the films is precisely because, in the films, light sided Jedi avoid conflict at ALL costs, and when forced to fight, only fight defensively, prefering to disarm their foes rather than kill them.

 

Let me put it this way: What quality does Force Burst have that Project does not? How is Project a dark side move, while Force Burst is light side? I don't exactly remember any light side Jedi using Force Burst in the films either. And for that matter, I don't exactly remember any light side Jedi fighting aggressively (Read: Injuring, ie dps) either.

 

If you would prefer force usage be limited solely to crowd control effects, then by all means, roll a Jedi Knight. You can force push, force leap, use the force to increase your combat prowess, et cetera. Sure, they wear heavy armor, but I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan wore armor in the Clone Wars cartoons.

 

I have a guardian...a sentinel...a shadow...a sage....sorcerers, a sin...I play all the force using classes atm, and most of the non-force users. That doesnt change the fact that the look and feel of the consulars in this game, has been reduced to junk thrower. There is no support for that ANYWHERE in the lore. Again, we arent talking about ancillary, ocassionally used skills. We are talking about core, defining, identifying skills used ad nauseam. Nice pivot though after I shut down your post on darkside connotations...lol. Again, watch the movies and count. Tell me who the junk throwers are. Again, hint, it isnt the jedi. So blatantly obvious, having to restate it while you try to twist around it, is ridiculous in itself.

 

As mentioned in the wiki, force push style skills form the cornerstone of jedi ranged attacks because pushing an aggressor back from you is more inherently defensive than the classic, temper tantrum anger move of picking up something and throwing it at someone. When yoda faces dooku in aotc...what happens? dooku throws crap at him, collapses the ceiling, etc. What does yoda say? "...the darkside I sense in you..." duh....Again...watch the movies, do some counting, pay attention, and I think you will see how clear the situation is.

 

Now, Force Burst is a type of force push...again from the wiki:

 

Force Push

 

At more powerful levels, Force Push was the ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force, launching a concussive burst of pressurized air-not unlike the blast of an archaic 'pipe bomb'-that would impact a target with enough force to knock it over, launch it into the air, or even (particularly in the case of fragile materials such as ceramics) shatter it into pieces. The greater the user's telekinetic aptitude, the larger the pressure differential, and thus the stronger the effect and the heavier the target. With practice, a skilled Force user could increase the range and arc of the blast without lowering the average kinetic energy, creating a blanketed wave instead of a focused impulse. Truly gifted practitioners could generate a concussive blast that would radiate from them for dozens of meters in all directions, detonating with the force of a conventional explosive.

 

And, again from the wiki:

 

As one of the few offensive powers not fundamentally dark in nature, Force Push frequently forms the cornerstone of a Jedi's offensive arsenal.

 

The above paragraph outlines all the concepts needed to produce numerous animations that would be in line with the concept of a force push...that can simulate bomb blasts with devastating shockwaves made up of pressure and/ or heat differentials, as bombs do...Force Burst is CLEARLY in that family, just like Disturbance is. It is more in line with the lore. PERIOD. Jedi are NOT JUNK THROWERS.

 

But what you touch on, yet dont clearly label is the philosophical difference between the light and the dark. Both will dps the hell out of you. Darkside is faster to kill, but lightside does as well...after all there is no death, only the force. So what is the difference. This is a generalization, as there are many jedi and in the EU you can find anything. But in GENERAL, jedi are like aikidoists, whereas darksiders would be more like hapkidoists. Or some other "hard" style martial art. What is the difference in breaking someones jaw with a punch versus breaking their jaw when they come after you and you redirect their face into the pavement? The end result is the same. The method and philsophy is wildly different, which some people, although it has been explained to them, are incapable of grasping.

 

Now in this game we have a problem. They did the inq side first, and sorc isnt a bad palpitane model. BUT then, instead of doing a jedi class from the ground up, they reskinned the inq, also because of their mirror paradigm, which, if they would just follow, the project problem would have never happened. Or if they would just follow the lore. But anyway, ideally your jedi class would be based around reflective damage or the concept of taking your opponents aggression and turning it back on them.

 

You could do this creatively in any number of ways, like an absorb/reflect "attack" that you could use as soon as a mob aggros you, or whatever. Alot of it could be as simple as presentation, with the nature of the animation and the description of the power. Since we dont have that...they could AT LEAST follow the lore enough to base the ranged attacks off of a skill that is at least neutral, like force push, and has defensive connotations. NOT A SKILL THAT IS USED BY EVERY SITH AND IS USED BY THEM MORE THAN ANY OTHER RANGED SKILL IN SIX MOVIES. Really, it is that simple. Not a skill that was labelled as darkside in the very first jedi game and has been ever since. Really it is that simple.

 

If you want the junk throwing that bad, many people have suggested that it be put in the place of disturbance, where it would get the activation timer it so desperately needs. But tbh, it should replace lightning strike on the sith side before it is put into the jedi skills. But, I would be ok with this, IF they fix its other problems, and IF the two main, signature skills....project and throw...were no longer based on junk/debris/rock throwing, but instead used force push concepts, like Force Burst, or the current disturbance, or even a saber throw. The only jedi that saber threw in the movies was yoda, the consular archetype. If ANYONE has a saber throw in this game it should be consulars...

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

...#3: So is Project a dark side move or not? Because that's what Yoda is doing there..

 

Reflectively throwing something back at someone that threw it at you first (and talk about a mother of an activation timer...lol) is NOT the same as project. Just like reflecting back lightning at palpitane is NOT the same as shooting lightning. Reflecting back a blaster bolt is not the same, in action or philosophy, as shooting the blaster in the first place.

 

Again....waaaaaaay obvious.

 

Just like throwing a rock at someone who isnt in range to harm you or isnt attacking you, where the rock is designed to do one thing...smash them...not knock them back...is VASTLY different than being in melee range with someone that is trying to kill you (jango, criminal, etc.). Jedi kill when doing so ends the threat. And usually in melee range, where that aggressor has purposefully gotten up close and personal with the intent to harm. Jedi do not harm you until you try to harm them or others first. Yes, of course there are exceptions. But generally, when the threat has been neutralized, the jedi stop dpsing, even if the target is still alive. Windu, as mentioned, was not the classic lightsider, but you could posit that he was going to kill palpitane after he was seemingly defenseless because he realized that palpitanes threat would never be over until he was dead.

 

Thats why they typically dont throw crap at people. Again...meet Mr. Obvious. Its all about aggression versus stopping aggression. Could you throw a rock at someone to stop them from harming you...sure, but that isnt the rule, that is the exception, which is why Sith throw junk at people all the time and jedi, not so much. Its like a deadly force policy. Jedi follow it...whereas sith are just deadly force, period...lol.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dyvim

[Evastian]

@ Dyvim:

 

You still have not explained what is dark sided about project. Let me explain what I mean:

 

Force Lightning is dark sided because it inflicts extreme and unnecessary pain on the enemy. In addition to killing the foe, it tortures them as it does so. This is clearly dark sided.

 

Force stun is generally light sided because it can be used to completely avoid a fight. It's pretty simple.

 

Force telekinesis is neutral because it can be used any way you like it to.

 

How is project dark sided?

 

Can you please, take a moment, and explain to me in detail the fundamental darkness behind project?

Edited May 11, 2012 by Sireene
reply to removed post

[Dyvim]

...

 

Anyway, @ Dyvim:

 

You still have not explained what is dark sided about project. Let me explain what I mean:

 

Force Lightning is dark sided because it inflicts extreme and unnecessary pain on the enemy. In addition to killing the foe, it tortures them as it does so. This is clearly dark sided.

 

Force stun is generally light sided because it can be used to completely avoid a fight. It's pretty simple.

 

Force telekinesis is neutral because it can be used any way you like it to.

 

How is project dark sided?

 

Can you please, take a moment, and explain to me in detail the fundamental darkness behind project?

 

Read my above posts, it should explain it. It is about philosophy. Jedi dont "project" aggression, they redirect it, and frequently do so back at the attacker. Just like an aikidoist takes the aggressors energy and redirects it to typically harm the aggressor, as is common in "soft" martial arts. We have a very clear contrast in jedi and sith teachings in ESB, where yoda trains luke to levitate objects...no where is any jedi trained to throw objects at targets in the movies...and then when Luke battles Vader we see the dark side perversion of that skill when vader throws objects at luke repeatedly in their duel. The difference in philosophy and the differences in skillsets that come with it, are so very clear.

 

What is the difference between the person that first throws the rock vs. the target who takes that rock and reflects it back? Hopefully that is obvious for you. That is what is darkside about project. You are creating aggression, with a move designed to do one thing...damage, harm, smash the target. At range, initiating the attack. Period. Thats why ALL the sith used it, and virtually no jedi did. We see, over and over and over, that junk throwing is a favored, most often used darkside attack. Then you have the basic common sense of the situation, as applied to jedi philosophy, to help you figure it out. Throwing something at someone is innately aggressive and typically smacks of anger or a temper tantrum. Contrast that with the innately defensive move of pushing an attacker away from you.

 

On top of that you have all the other jedi games that have classified it as a dark skill for the same obvious, canonical, reasons. Well, and then there are the movies. Watch and count.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dyvim

[Vales]

So, let me categorize the list of attacks you've given me:

 

3 listed events about Mace Windu.

2 listed events where Obi-Wan removed someone's limb.

1 listed event where Yoda used Project.

 

So, of these 3, here are my rationalizations:

 

#1: Regarding Mace Windu, here is a portion from the entry on him on Wookiepedia, with important parts bolded:

 

 

#2: Re: Obi-Wan, one way of disarming somebody is to literally remove their arm. That isn't a killing blow, especially in the age of cybernetics.

 

#3: So is Project a dark side move or not? Because that's what Yoda is doing there.

 

BTW, 5 of the 6 listed events were in the prequels which take the seat as the #1 disappointment of all time in cinema, because the original trilogy was so good and everyone had such high standards for the prequels, and then George Lucas took a big steaming dump all over the faces of America with the prequels, which are most well known for their convoluted plots and emotionless characters.

 

I could have listed more.

Luke attempted to kill the emperor. I doubt he would have been successful but neverthless, the film is quite clear imho that Luke was never hesitant about killing the emperor.

Luke also tried to kill Vader in "The Empire strikes back".

Luke was also not hesitant to kill the gang members of Jabba on that sand glider.

Anakin killed a whole village of sand people for revenge.

Etc etc etc

If we take in books, video games, and the cartoon series I am sure we can find many many more like Vinlan Quos or Ploo who even uses Force Lightning.

Kyle Katarn also killed scores of troppers and also utilized dark side techniques like choke and lightning.

 

By the way I would not call dismembering someone as "disarming". If we can believe what we know over jedi and their precognitive abilities, then he should easily be capable of just cutting his weapon to ribbons instead of his arm.

 

Regarding the prequels, this does not matter what you think about then. They are considered canon, like it or not and they are certainly above anything you or Dyvim like or not like.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Sireene
quote of edited post

[Evastian]

I could have listed more.

Luke attempted to kill the emperor. I doubt he would have been successful but neverthless, the film is quite clear imho that Luke was never hesitant about killing the emperor.

Luke also tried to kill Vader in "The Empire strikes back".

Luke was also not hesitant to kill the gang members of Jabba on that sand glider.

Anakin killed a whole village of sand people for revenge.

Etc etc etc

If we take in books, video games, and the cartoon series I am sure we can find many many more like Vinlan Quos or Ploo who even uses Force Lightning.

Kyle Katarn also killed scores of troppers and also utilized dark side techniques like choke and lightning.

Yes, these examples are examples of what I said before that I have bolded for emphasis:

Well, to be honest, I'm not even sure.

 

In the films, Jedi don't ever actually hit their opponents. They hit their weapons, and they hit droids, sure, but they don't actually plunge their lightsabers into the hearts of their foes. They always stay their attacks when it's clear they've won. They just go around parrying like madmen and their attacks are usually moreso to try to disarm their opponents than to actually slay them and there are few exceptions and the majority of them involve inner battles with the dark side.

 

On top of that you have all the other jedi games that have classified it as a dark skill for the same obvious, canonical, reasons. Well, and then there are the movies. Watch and count.

 

Can you list some for me? I can't think of any games where "Project" is a listed skill as it is.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Evastian

[Dyvim]

...

Can you list some for me? I can't think of any games where "Project" is a listed skill as it is.

 

Junk throwing...like project or tk throw...was labeled as Force Throw, a darkside skill, in the first 3D/1st person series of lucasarts games where you could wield a saber and have force powers. The series started with Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, which introduced us to Kyle Katarn, about 15 years ago. That help? Another lore lesson delivered...I'm going to start charging...lol. Or you could just watch the movies and accept the obvious. Side note: it was done better, 15 years ago, because the junk was designed into the levels...you didnt magically conjure it out of the ground...

 

Give it up. Junk throwing is full of "darkside connotations"... anyone that has seen a star wars movie and wants to be honest about it could stipulate that in about 1 second. BTW, would be great to get back on topic.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Dyvim

[Vales]

 

How is project dark sided?

 

 

Simple answer: It is not.

For it is not the same as Force Throw in the game JK which Mr. Dyvim will for sure relate to again.

Also what is more important to the actual effect is the intent and the method used to achieve it.

Hence you could ask yourself why can Sith Sorcerers heal? Healing is not something you neccesarily attribute to Sith especially if it is not something like a sacrifical act.

 

By the way, really do not think too much about games. There is a reason they are by large the lowest type of canon because a lot of decisions were purely made by gameplay and balance reasons, less for SW lore.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Vales