The "Evil Clone" Alt: How to Encourage Opposing Faction Alts

[Rischardo]

Let me start off by saying that I love this game. There are many things wrong with it and Bioware has promised to fix many of those problems. The question is if they will be able to fix it while this game still has a solid player base.

 

All that aside, I have a suggestion that might keep players satiated until some of the bigger problems can be fixed. Many players have resorted to alting as we wait for these fixes and it was because of this, I came up with: the "Evil Clone" suggestion.

 

What is an Evil Clone? Simply put, the "Evil Clone" mechanic would let you create/use the opposing faction's mirror advanced class once you hit 50. An example would be if a player leveled up a Jedi Guardian to level 50, he could create and use an "Evil Clone" level 50 Sith Juggernaut. It can be implemented in a variety of ways, but I will get to the restrictions of the evil clone later.

 

The Problem: Story vs. Endgame: SWTOR's main distinguishing factor is the story complete with fully voiced cut scenes. They're great...I love them. But strip away the story and SWTOR is a traditional MMO. MMOs are meant to be played with people and we all develop new friendships along the way. The problem with rolling an opposing faction alt is that it largely ignores the importance of these relationships. Once your opposing faction alt hits 50 and the story ends, what is there to do? Your "main" is on the opposing faction's side...along with your guild and the majority of your friends. Your 50 alt can't help your guild run FPs or do Operations. Your 50 alt can't PvP with your guildmates and friends. Simply put, your alt is at best a crewskill toon. This is a great deterrent to rolling an opposing faction alt in the first place.

 

As it stands, there a natural tension between SWTOR's story based strengths and the fact that it's a traditional MMO. When rolling an alt, the player often has to choose: story vs. end game.

 

The "Evil Clone" solution: The purpose of the Evil Clone mechanic is to encourage people to make opposing faction alts. It eliminates the problem of having to choose between the story you want to see and having an alt that can do the end game with your guildmates and friends. I'm not a role player, but I have a Powertech main and a Sniper alt because my friends went Imperial and I don't like the idea of playing a Sith. I wouldn't mind, however, playing through the Jedi Consular or Knight story, then having a Sith inquisitor/warrior evil clone I can play just for the end game.

 

The "Evil Clone" mechanic also helps the people who want to roll a different advanced class, but don't want to relive the same story all over again. For instance, I have wanted to roll a Merc or Ops healer as a second alt, but I don't want to rehash the bounty hunter or imperial agent stories all over again. This mechanic allows players the choice to roll a Commando or Scoundrel so they can see a fresh story, but have the same end result of having a 50 Merc/Ops healer.

 

How would it be applied?: I've bounced this idea off some of my guildmates and they played devil's advocate to address some concerns.

 

1. Story continuity: My original idea was just to have the character do a quest to "switch sides". One story concern was..."who" is your character? If I made a Commando and now it's suddenly a Merc, what "choices" did the Merc make? How does the Merc continue the story when new class stories come out?

 

Thus, my idea evolved to the Evil Clone. For the people concerned with the lore, cloning is not a novel technology to the Star Wars universe (and it is even in this game...I'm not telling which story though!). And cloning makes sense; our characters are supposed to be heroes... the type of person you would expect to be cloned.

 

So basically the story idea is this: you hit 50 on your character and get an optional quest. The quest somehow gets you captured by the opposing faction who hates, but respects you. You eventually escape your captors, but not before the opposing faction was able to get your DNA for a clone.

 

Clones don't have memories or a complicated past. They don't have relationships, they just take orders. Simply put, your clone doesn't get to do any of the story (except what is absolutely necessary for FPs/Dailies/Ops). However, the alt (who the Evil Clone came from) is free to continue the class story when future content is released.

 

2. Companions/Crewskills: Similar to the story continuity concern, which companions do you get? Would it be the alt's companions or the evil clone's companions? What will they think of you?

 

Again, since you're a clone, you wouldn't get your alt's original companions. And it doesn't make any sense that you suddenly have the 5 companions you would normally get had you leveled the clone "normally". Instead, I suggest just one companion: a (silent) droid unique to clone characters. The droid has three "modes" (tank/DPS/healer) and can only use certain abilities when in a certain mode. The droid can only switch mode out of combat.

 

As far as crewskills are concerned, your evil clone doesn't get to send out missions or craft. It would be unrealistic to expect that once you hit 50 and did your evil clone quest that you suddenly have access to two full crewskill sets. I think it would be a minor inconvenience to switch between the alt and its clone for crafting purpose given the fact that you get a "free" level 50 clone.

 

The one caveat to this is that whatever crewskill level you have on your alt, your clone gets as well. For example, let's say that a Republic Gunslinger is 400 biochem. While the Imperial Sniper clone couldn't make any biochem items, the sniper could still use the adrenals/stims that require the biochem level. Make it a legacy thing even.

 

3. Gear and other concerns

What about gear? Bank space? Bag Slots? Does it all transfer or Not? It's all answered with one simple mechanic: your clone starts with nothing, just as if you had made a level 1 alt. That means you have to buy all your bag slots and bank slots just as you would with any other alt.

 

As far as gear is concerned, this is designed to encourage people to roll alts. Ideally, your mains should be able to gear up your alt by buying crafted items. And honestly, how could a mechanic that encourages players to buy crafted items hurt? This is one way to create fresh demand in markets that are arguably dying out/were never viable in the first place.

 

Thanks for reading and Discuss!

Edited May 5, 2012 by Rischardo

[KreeAyTiv]

I started out hating it, but it grew on me as I kept reading. You've thought it through pretty well.

 

As far as negatively impacting the game, the only thing I could think of would be creating greater PvP imbalance. But on the other hand I can see people queuing up on the lower pop side for the faster queues. Therefore IMHO this issue's a wash.

 

Personally I'd still prefer the ability to have a class ending quest that allows you to switch sides somehow, but I realize this probably isn't remotely possible.

 

Well thought out and written post. Props to you.

[Rischardo]

I started out hating it, but it grew on me as I kept reading. You've thought it through pretty well.

 

As far as negatively impacting the game, the only thing I could think of would be creating greater PvP imbalance. But on the other hand I can see people queuing up on the lower pop side for the faster queues. Therefore IMHO this issue's a wash.

 

Personally I'd still prefer the ability to have a class ending quest that allows you to switch sides somehow, but I realize this probably isn't remotely possible.

 

Well thought out and written post. Props to you.

 

The PvP balance was one concern a guildmate voiced to me. I didn't include it because it would add to an already long post .

 

As for that concern, I have what I feel to be a good counter-argument. The reason why this clone system is needed in the first place is because people want to play with their guild and friends in the end game. Thus, most players are only going to use the clone as a way of playing on the side they are already playing on. For instance, if I wanted to PvP with an alt, I might PvP on my cloned sorcerer rather than my sniper. For most players, all that will change is what class they are playing as opposed to the faction they are playing for.

 

There is a potential for people who have little to no ties to a guild/friends switching to the other faction just so that they are on the "stronger PvP side". However, given the social nature of MMOs, I feel that these people are few and far between. As for entire guilds switching over...not much you can do about that I guess. Most people identify with their character in some way though, so I feel that it would take a lot to convince an entire group to give up that identity.

 

The concern with having a major class choice to switch factions would be, imo, a logistical nightmare for Bioware. If you think about it, there are already two major "stories" for each class...more or less a dark side major story choice and a light side major story choice. Presumably, the future story content will build off those choices. If, in addition to all this, there was a faction change story, Bioware would have to write even more content that many people would never see. Faction switches also can't address things like having a Jedi companion docked on your Republic ship on the Imperial fleet. I think a faction switch would be ideal, but honestly would be too much work to be worth the effort.

 

Thanks for your compliments, much appreciated! (and my level 27 sage will appreciate it even more if this idea is implemented )

[Rischardo]

Bump. Don't tell me there aren't others out there who have thought "I'd really like to roll a [insert class role], but don't want to play a [advanced class's story]". This would solve it!

[ADGarner]

Wouldn't the evil clone idea however reduce the number of people playing lower tier content? If SWTOR is still running two years from now it can still feasibly maintain a newbie player base for people just starting out. The sheer volume of alts that people will be rolling just to see eight story lines almost guarantees that newbie zones will never be empty.

 

This is part of the genius of the SWTOR model. Aging MMOs have always had difficulty attracting even more new players because almost no one is playing that early game content. If SWTOR is successful it almost certainly will never feel these pains.

 

However if the evil clone system is implemented I imagine there would be less alts and consequently less people in low level areas.

[Jeyraz]

This comment is not only as a reply but a bump, this thread needs some loving, seriously, Rischardo I don't know why Bioware hasn't swept you up as a creative person thingy...This idea is great and you've literally thought of almost EVERY possibility, even stating the minor flaws and combating them with logic and reasoning.

I, like the first comment poster (sorry your name has slipped me), began reading hating this and finished reading loving this. It is extremely well thought out and I love the ideas you've put into it. However I'd like to add something else perhaps as a possibility. Actually more than one thing, I'm going to let the ideas form as I type, so bear with.

 

1) Perhaps there should be something to do with morality here, seeing as it basically serves only as a way to get and use different gear on different characters. Perhaps you have to have the final rank on either light or dark and your clone starts off on the opposite side with the exact opposite morality. I'm not sure about this, but I feel that this concept of yours would be a nice way to add some more morality features.

 

2) I love the idea of a mute droid as a companion who can switch roles. But adding on to that, how about we look at PROXY, the lovable droid from The Force Unleashed series. What about this mute robot be able to "holomorph" I think they call it, so that he can project the image of your original characters companions around himself, perhaps with different features depending on what side you swapped to. Like this droid is the exact opposite of ALL your companions and with a regular switch like you do any companion he changes his holomorph. He could also be the replacement for the useless droid companion you get with your ship. A much nicer way to change roles methinks.

 

3) I'm still sitting on the fence on this one, because I think to experience the story of a new character, YOU SHOULD have to play through it all over again. However I had a thought that, at the start of this clones life (perhaps they start on the iconic cloning facility on kamino) you have the choice to do an option quest called "Memory Rewind" which allows you to live out the memories that the cloners are giving you (i.e. the instances and story cutscenes of the class you've been cloned into bumped up to level 50) . I'm not sure how that would kind of fit into a lore, but you could more or less reason that the cloners are pumping false memories into you so that you feel more like a real being and that you actually have a purpose in the world rather than reasoning that you are just a clone and nothing but a clone. However as stated before this would be optional and I'm still conflicted about the whole idea, seeing as it would probably be better if you wanted to experience the story to roll another char from the beginning. This idea though, would cut out the tedious world quests which you've probably already done on one character (per side).

 

Well I think that's about it from me, I'm not sure yet about adding a comment of how they could add clone gear that is the completely opposite colour to what the original character has but that's a lose idea that you can play with.

I've enjoyed reading this concept through thoroughly and hope that it is spotted by a GM.

 

EDIT: OH and before I leave this, if this is simply a way for you to play the alternate advanced class, I still think they should have an option to (for a hefty cost) swap advanced classes. Of course you'd need to pay the price to get all skill points resubmitted and then yet another fee for the advanced class swap, so no reward without mega pay

Edited May 5, 2012 by Jeyraz

[Illyean]

I like the concept, I would welcome a way to add alts without grinding thru the same quests for the 5th time. I would however like to see it involve having to play through the class story. This could dimly be that when you are given the clone they are at the level or the start of the class story, but on completion of each class quest they level up to the next class quest level. In other words cut out all the receptive quests that are the same no matter which class you play.

 

Anyway, its a nice concept but it won't happen. those days of grinding thru an alt from 1 to 50 are seen by many as the making of your character (false), essential to learn how to play (false), they had to do it so you should to (lol) and part of being in an MMO (who cares?).

 

I think there could be a number of engaging game mechanics such as this and BW showing some thought leadership in gthe genre rather than rehousing and dumbing down everything that's gone before would be nice.

 

How about being able to 'twin' an Imp and Rep pair at the start, they would level in parallel, driven by the story, the story could even include the mirror toon, you could swap from Imp to Rep and do a few levels on the other side. Again the class story arc would drive progression

[Rischardo]

I'm glad that others like the idea, especially the ones who hated it to start with! Haha.

 

Just a fair warning, I took the time to try and reply to each suggestion/concern/criticism so it will be a long post. If a GM/Dev is following this, I want to try and make this idea as plausible as possible.

 

I like the concept, I would welcome a way to add alts without grinding thru the same quests for the 5th time.

 

Let me start off with this one so I can be absolutely clear: The Evil Clone system is not a way to eliminate the alt grind. As players, many of us would love an "I win" button that basically gives us another character to toy with. However, we have to keep things in perspective of Bioware and their obligation to make money for their shareholders. If we can quickly level up alts, players get bored of the game faster. The faster players get bored, the more likely they will quit. Players who quit tend to encourage other players to quit. Less players = less subscriptions = less money.

 

What the Evil Clone system DOES do is allow the player to go through the traditional alt grind, but gives them the option to do so from the opposing faction mirror class perspective. You end up with the "same" result: a level 50 alt for the faction that your main, guildmates,and friends are on. The system simply allows a little more choice in the process of getting there (the story). The Evil Clone system is actually very much in line with what Bioware is already planning for alts and player choice. For instance, if you love PvP and want to level primarily through PvP, there is a future legacy option to give bonus experience for PvPing. Similarly, the Evil Clone system gives the player more choice in the story they want to see without "penalizing" them with a "useless" 50 after the story is done.

 

Wouldn't the evil clone idea however reduce the number of people playing lower tier content?...This is part of the genius of the SWTOR model. Aging MMOs have always had difficulty attracting even more new players because almost no one is playing that early game content. If SWTOR is successful it almost certainly will never feel these pains.

 

However if the evil clone system is implemented I imagine there would be less alts and consequently less people in low level areas.

 

Not quite imho. First, I think you're assuming that the majority of players are "altoholics" and will roll alts regardless of the incentive to do so. Granted there are some people who enjoy the leveling experience and would rather do that than focus on the end game. However, I'd bet that the majority of players invest their time in one to three characters with the intent to play those characters for the level 50 content. MMOs will always struggle to keep lower level areas populated and SWTOR is no different. While it may have a great story to offer (8 in total), the player still has to do the same set of non-class quests 4 times (4 Imperial grinds, 4 Republic grinds) and that is daunting in and of itself.

 

Second, the Evil Clone system doesn't necessarily discourage people who want to see all 8 stories because there are two advanced classes per story. Thus, if I leveled a Jedi Guardian to 50 and received a level 50 Sith Juggernaut clone, I could still see the Sith Warrior's story through the eyes of a Marauder.

 

Third, the evil clone system may actually encourage people to roll alts. As stated earlier, there are many players who have no interest in playing a certain class because they have no interest in the story. Players might not have an interest in the story because of A. the story itself doesn't appeal to them (IE: I have no desire to play as a Sith in a story) or B. because they have already played through the story and have no desire to see it again (IE: I have a Powertech, but would also like a Mercenary). The evil clone system allows the flexibility of choosing the story you want to see, but having the same end result of having a character you can use with your guildmates and friends.

 

I like the concept, I would welcome a way to add alts without grinding thru the same quests for the 5th time. I would however like to see it involve having to play through the class story. This could dimly be that when you are given the clone they are at the level or the start of the class story, but on completion of each class quest they level up to the next class quest level. In other words cut out all the receptive quests that are the same no matter which class you play.

 

Interesting idea, but I foresee a few problems. The first is economy based; allowing players to power level that quickly means they have access to 5 companions virtually within the span of a few hours. With 5 crew members, you could easily level up every single crew skill (and even have some doubles like UW trading or Slicing) if you had 3 "original" 50s (14 crew skills in SWTOR, 3 crew skills per original 50 and clone = 18 crew skills). Multiply that across thousands of players and there would be some serious problems with too much supply, but not enough demand.

 

The second potential issue you have more or less stated yourself:

Anyway, its a nice concept but it won't happen. those days of grinding thru an alt from 1 to 50 are seen by many as the making of your character (false), essential to learn how to play (false), they had to do it so you should to (lol) and part of being in an MMO (who cares?).

 

I actually disagree with leveling being "essential to learn how to play is false" statement. Sure, there are many people who could read a guide or something and learn how to play a new advanced class even though they were given the character at 50. But not every player will consult a guide and quite frankly, getting all the skills all at once would be overwhelming for many players (that's one reason why skills are granted gradually). I admit that I was overwhelmed when I switched my Sniper from Marksman to Lethality. After finding a guide, I practiced the rotation for about an hour and still had to consciously think about the rotation when I went into a FP later on. Leveling makes these rotations or "skill priority awareness" second nature.

 

I'm still sitting on the fence on this one, because I think to experience the story of a new character, YOU SHOULD have to play through it all over again. However I'm not sure how that would kind of fit into a lore, but you could more or less reason that the cloners are pumping false memories into you so that you feel more like a real being and that you actually have a purpose in the world rather than reasoning that you are just a clone and nothing but a clone. However as stated before this would be optional and I'm still conflicted about the whole idea, seeing as it would probably be better if you wanted to experience the story to roll another char from the beginning. This idea though, would cut out the tedious world quests which you've probably already done on one character (per side).

 

Definitely a cool idea, but from Bioware's perspective (and as you have stated), a player should have to go through the entire story process (side quests included) if they want to see that particular story. The "Rewind" function could also discourage people from making alts of the OPPOSITE (not opposing) advanced class IE I level a Sith Sorcerer and get a Jedi Sage clone. I do the "rewind" function and see the Consular's story...no point in playing a Jedi Shadow unless I want a Jedi Shadow now.

 

I'm not sure yet about adding a comment of how they could add clone gear that is the completely opposite colour to what the original character has but that's a lose idea that you can play with.

 

The reason why I suggested that the clone alt start with no gear is because I suspect that it would be a nightmare to code all of that over. Not only is some gear class specific, but other pieces of gear "change" when worn by a character on the opposing side (IE: Bought a War hero trooper helm because I thought it looked cooler than the equivalent Bounty Hunter one. It changed over to the Bounty Hunter helm when my Republic alt mailed it to my Imperial main). I wanted to make a suggestion that would involve the least amount of coding or complications as possible so that the idea had a greater chance of being implemented .

 

if this is simply a way for you to play the alternate advanced class, I still think they should have an option to (for a hefty cost) swap advanced classes. Of course you'd need to pay the price to get all skill points resubmitted and then yet another fee for the advanced class swap, so no reward without mega pay

 

I disagree with this idea entirely. Bioware has stated that the advanced classes are meant to be unique and separate from one another. Even in our shared trees, the two classes play very differently (IE: Pyro Powertech plays much differently from a Pyro Merc.) This is NOT a way so that you can play the alternate advanced class easily; you still have to level up the mirror advanced class to 50 first. I am not advocating that if you level a Republic Vanguard to 50, you have a choice of EITHER an Imperial Powertech or Mercenary clone. In this example, you would ONLY get an Imperial Powertech clone because it plays EXACTLY the same as a Vanguard.

 

Perhaps there should be something to do with morality here, seeing as it basically serves only as a way to get and use different gear on different characters. Perhaps you have to have the final rank on either light or dark and your clone starts off on the opposite side with the exact opposite morality. I'm not sure about this, but I feel that this concept of yours would be a nice way to add some more morality features.

 

I think that's fitting, it is an "evil" (or really, opposite) clone of the original character after all. The only issue is that Bioware wanted to make a neutral character a viable thing and this could potentially detract from that. Nix the level 5 dark/side requirement though, and it could be easily done for neutral characters by inverting the alignment points (IE: Original Character: 4000 Dark Side points, 1000 Light Side points. "Evil" Clone: 1000 Dark Side points, 4000 Light Side points).

 

I love the idea of a mute droid as a companion who can switch roles. But adding on to that, how about we look at PROXY, the lovable droid from The Force Unleashed series. What about this mute robot be able to "holomorph" I think they call it, so that he can project the image of your original characters companions around himself, perhaps with different features depending on what side you swapped to. Like this droid is the exact opposite of ALL your companions and with a regular switch like you do any companion he changes his holomorph. He could also be the replacement for the useless droid companion you get with your ship. A much nicer way to change roles methinks.

 

The holomorph idea rocks! I don't know anything about coding, but there are already companions that change form according to what stance they are in...logic says that it shouldn't be too hard to adapt that coding for holomorphing.

 

This comment is not only as a reply but a bump, this thread needs some loving, seriously, Rischardo I don't know why Bioware hasn't swept you up as a creative person thingy.

 

Thanks! If Bioware makes an offer, I would certainly be happy to talk .

Edited May 5, 2012 by Rischardo

[Rischardo]

I'm starting to think I should title all my posts "Bioware Sucks" or "Rauders/Sents OP and get buffz?!?LAWL"

 

Perhaps a TLDR reader's digest version is necessary?

[ADGarner]

The evil clone system allows the flexibility of choosing the story you want to see, but having the same end result of having a character you can use with your guildmates and friends.

 

I started to think about this more and more and wouldn't the next logical step be to just let people purchase level 50 characters? The evil clone is just one step removed from that. You don't have to play the character. You don't build it. You don't experience the story. In a game largely consisting of unlockable content. From missions, to gear, to legacy rewards, story, companions, space missions, and so on it seems counter intuitive in the extreme that you would not have to similarly "unlock" a level 50 character on the opposing faction by...

 

Playing the character on that faction.

[Rischardo]

it seems counter intuitive in the extreme that you would not have to similarly "unlock" a level 50 character on the opposing faction by...

 

Playing the character on that faction.

 

Ah, good point, I forgot to mention an additional restriction on the Evil Clone system: you have to have a 50 on both sides to utilize it (IE: 50 Republic main, 50 Imperial alt)

 

Essentially, the Evil Clone mechanic could be a level 50 "legacy quest". You initiate it by getting captured and escaping on your opposing faction "alt", then switching to your "main" and completing the quest. Maybe have some sort of quest where the "main" has to fight through Rakghouls to access the cloning technology (since the Rakghoul story is so heavy on DNA and science research, perhaps the most accessible cloning machine has been over run by Rakghouls.) If you don't have a 50 on both sides, you can't finish the legacy quest and thus, can't get the clone.

 

I started to think about this more and more and wouldn't the next logical step be to just let people purchase level 50 characters? The evil clone is just one step removed from that. You don't have to play the character. You don't build it. You don't experience the story. In a game largely consisting of unlockable content. From missions, to gear, to legacy rewards, story, companions, space missions, and so on

 

Not really. You still have to put forth the effort of leveling two characters to 50. You still "build" it and play the character while leveling the alt. This idea works because the classes are EXACTLY mirrored...everything from talents to skills. The only difference is the name of the skill and the visual effects of the skill.

 

Even legacy isn't really affected; if you get a Republic Gunslinger past Act 2, you're going to have the +5% crit buff on any toon you have. Does the fact that you can later get an Imperial Sniper clone change anything? No, you already unlocked +5% crit chance anyways.

 

Again, this is not a way to instantly have a new alt. You still have to learn the class and grind through like everyone else. The only difference is that you get to choose a different story you see while leveling to 50.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Rischardo

[ACLucius]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree that this would be a good idea. Were it not for the fact that we have new legacy upgrades coming in 1.3 that will allow us to get more experience from warzones, flashpoints, and space missions, I could understand this. However, as it is we will have three new ways to level aside from questing which, in theory, will work out to being roughly an equal amount of time spent. People who like the space missions can do those right to 50 and just stop to do the class story if they want. People who like warzones can just do that. People who like flash points can grind away in the same ones over and over and level. People who like multiple ones can do multiple ones.

 

Were it not for the fact they are already adding in ways to level quickly in ways other than quests, I'd say your idea might have a place.

[Rischardo]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree that this would be a good idea. Were it not for the fact that we have new legacy upgrades coming in 1.3 that will allow us to get more experience from warzones, flashpoints, and space missions, I could understand this. However, as it is we will have three new ways to level aside from questing which, in theory, will work out to being roughly an equal amount of time spent. People who like the space missions can do those right to 50 and just stop to do the class story if they want. People who like warzones can just do that. People who like flash points can grind away in the same ones over and over and level. People who like multiple ones can do multiple ones.

 

Were it not for the fact they are already adding in ways to level quickly in ways other than quests, I'd say your idea might have a place.

 

I certainly understand if you disagree/don't like the idea, but you haven't really said why. Simply because there are other similar ideas planned for 1.3 doesn't automatically make this idea a bad one. By that logic, if they added viable leveling through warzones and space missions, the option to level through flashpoints would be unnecessary and thus a bad idea. I fail to see how giving players a fourth option to level the way they want as a bad idea, but somehow the first three are not.

 

Let's look at the three ways of "enhanced" leveling that's coming out in 1.3. Essentially, Bioware is giving players the ability to level alts through 1. PvP 2. PvE Dungeons or 3. Space Missions. PvP and PvE Dungeons certainly are not unique to SWTOR, but Bioware nevertheless chooses to cater to players who prefer it. Nothing wrong there, but in terms of SWTOR's unique strengths, PvP and PvE dungeons are not among them. Space Missions might be unique to SWTOR, but let's be real; it was cool for the first few missions, but it gets awfully repetitive. Can you imagine playing a simplified Star Fox for 36-48 hours to level an alt? Again, not one of SWTOR's strengths.

 

Story, on the other hand, is undoubtedly what sets SWTOR apart from other MMOs. The quests actually feel epic and there is a sense of heroism as you finish each one. This is due to the strong writing, voice acting, and compelling stories that Bioware put a lot of time into. So my question for you, then, is this: why only cater to players who prefer the traditional (PvP and PvE dungeons) and mediocre (space missions) aspects of the game?

 

It makes no sense to "punish" the players who play SWTOR for the very thing that makes it unique. Why should a player that wants to level an alt to see both the opposing faction's story and a class story that appeals to them be treated differently from a PvPer who kills other players all the way to 50? Both players put in the same amount of time to get a 50 alt (the player playing for story probably puts in more time since they won't space bar through cut scenes). But in the end, the PvPer/Dungeon Crawler/Space Cadet players have the level 50 alt they want that is on the faction that they want the alt to be in; the story seekers don't.

 

THIS is the "punishment": Despite the fact that you put in more time leveling the alt than the before mentioned players, story seeking players are stuck with a level 50 alt who you don't want to do the end game content with because all of your friends and guildmates are on the other side.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Rischardo

[Jeyraz]

I'm getting confused now, with statements like "you'd still have to grind your alt"

So what? We get this cone and start him at level 1? We have to experience the whole story again? We have to grind his level up? That sounds and awful lot like, I dunno, rolling a new toon

Also I now am not quite understanding the point of it. As you've stated yourself things like Sith Marauder vs Jedi Sentinel are practically identical, only animations mask that, so what's the point of switching sides seeing as according to your first theory you wouldn't have story? You'd just play PvP? So...why not play PvP on your main...I thought this would be a chance to try out different advanced classes so that you don't have to go thru the same story once more. so for example You have to have a level 50 sentinel and a level 50 marauder, that way once you play through both of them you get their stories THEN you unlock a quest to clone them into a 50 Guardian and a 50 Juggernaut. This thread is getting more and more confusing.

Keep working at it though!

[ADGarner]

A lot of this is so contradictory. On one hand he wants you to be able to skip story and have a level 50 quick and pronto. On the other hand he lambasts every aspect of this game that is not story. Says that the story is great and if you play for the story then you are doing it right. Then says you're punished by playing for the story... then suggests a system that would fix this by allowing you to skip all the ... story?

[Rischardo]

I'm getting confused now, with statements like "you'd still have to grind your alt"

So what? We get this cone and start him at level 1? We have to experience the whole story again? We have to grind his level up? That sounds and awful lot like, I dunno, rolling a new toon

Also I now am not quite understanding the point of it. As you've stated yourself things like Sith Marauder vs Jedi Sentinel are practically identical, only animations mask that, so what's the point of switching sides seeing as according to your first theory you wouldn't have story? You'd just play PvP? So...why not play PvP on your main...I thought this would be a chance to try out different advanced classes so that you don't have to go thru the same story once more. so for example You have to have a level 50 sentinel and a level 50 marauder, that way once you play through both of them you get their stories THEN you unlock a quest to clone them into a 50 Guardian and a 50 Juggernaut. This thread is getting more and more confusing.

Keep working at it though!

 

In light of this, maybe I should go back and edit the original post to make it more clear and to incorporate other ideas on this thread. Maybe a hypothetical example would best explain how the clone process would work.

 

Step 1: Level a 50 Sentinel. This is your "main" that you raid and do Ops on. All of your guildmates/friends are Republic.

 

Step 2: You want to roll an alt. You guild has been light on tanks lately, so after looking at the tanking classes, you decide you want a Jedi Guardian. However, you have already played the general Republic story lines as well as the Jedi Knight storyline and want to experience something different. So you roll a Sith Juggernaut.

 

Step 3: Level the Sith Juggernaut to 50 as you normally would (aka the "alt grind"). Enjoy the general Imperial story lines and Sith Warrior story along the way.

 

Step 4: After hitting level 50 on the Sith Juggernaut, accept and complete the first half of the Clone legacy quest. During this part of the Clone legacy quest, the Republic captured you and you escaped. However, the Republic managed to extract your Juggernaut's DNA before the escape.

 

Step 5: Log on to your Sentinel. The second half of the Clone legacy quest is now available. The quest requires you to take the Juggernaut's DNA to a research facility on Taris. Fight through the Rakghouls until you make your way to the cloning machine. Finish the Clone legacy quest by putting the Juggernaut's DNA into the machine.

 

Step 6: Log off your Sentinel and go to your character selection screen. Click on your Juggernaut. Next to the "play" button that would log you into your Juggernaut is another button that says "clone". Click it.

 

Step 7: The "clone" button brings you to a character creation screen . You notice that all of the customization options are locked. The character is locked to be a Jedi Guardian and all of the customization options (race/gender/body type etc.) are set to your Sith Juggernaut's customization. Your only option is to name the Guardian. Name your character and click create. A short cut scene plays showing the "birth" of your Guardian then brings you back to the character selection screen.

 

Step 8: Your character selection screen now has three characters: A level 50 Jedi Sentinel (your main), a level 50 Sith Juggernaut (alt), and a level 50 Jedi Guardian ("evil" clone of the Juggernaut alt). Log on your Guardian.

 

Step 9: Your Guardian logs onto the Republic fleet with no gear and not a single credit to his name. Set up your talents, buy your alt some gear (with your Sentinel or Juggernaut) and proceed as any fresh 50 would.

 

Without the "evil clone" system, if you had a 50 Sentinel main and wanted a 50 Guardian alt (so you could have the option to tank for your guild), you would be forced to replay the Republic and Jedi Knight storyline. In this example, the evil clone system allows the player to see a fresh new story on the Juggernaut, but has the same result of getting a level 50 Guardian alt via the cloning process.

 

Another quick example: Level 50 Imperial Powertech (main) then Level 50 Republic Gunslinger (alt). Create Level 50 Imperial Sniper (clone of the Gunslinger) through the cloning process above. Yes, theoretically you could also have a level 50 Republic Vanguard (clone of the Powertech), but why would you want to? All of your guild mates and friends are Imperials since your main is an Imperial. Realistically, you only want the cloned Sniper for the end game.

 

In the second example, you would get a Sniper without seeing the Imperial Agent story. But in place of the Imperial Agent story, you saw and experienced the Smuggler story. Maybe the Smuggler story appealed to you more than the Imperial Agent story. Either way, if you later hear that the Imperial Agent story is really cool (and it is ), you could see it as an Operative.

 

So yes, you get three level 50 characters even though you only did the "work" for two. Practically speaking, however, you aren't going to play the opposing faction alt once it is 50 and the story is done. Why invest the time and effort into doing dailies and gearing up for Ops when you have to find an entire new guild to do the Ops with? Yes, this system does make and require an assumption, but I think it's a pretty safe one: people want to play with the guild mates and friends they already have...it's human nature.

 

Hope these examples clear up how the evil clone system would work!

[Rischardo]

A lot of this is so contradictory. On one hand he wants you to be able to skip story and have a level 50 quick and pronto. On the other hand he lambasts every aspect of this game that is not story. Says that the story is great and if you play for the story then you are doing it right. Then says you're punished by playing for the story... then suggests a system that would fix this by allowing you to skip all the ... story?

 

Maybe my comments were confusing and you thought I was suggesting a system where you could make a clone after only having one 50? If I was cryptic, I apologize and maybe my post above will help.

 

The evil clone mechanic does potentially allow you to "skip" a story (it does, though, allow you to avoid re-playing the same exact story if you want both advanced classes); after all, you get three level 50 characters though you only play through two stories. As I said in my original post, my first idea was just to let your opposing faction alt "defect" and "become" the other faction's mirror class. Since that method would cause a ton of problems both in terms of continuity with companions, split story lines, and coding (your armor would have to "transform", assault cannons would have to turn into MH/OH blasters etc.), I came up with the evil clone mechanism instead. It allows players to have some freedom in choosing the next story they want to see without the worry of having a 50 alt that they can't use to help their guildmates and friends in the end game.

[Jeyraz]

And I'm back on the wagon! I really want a jugger but I'm already 35 levels into my mara. Therefore your idea would fix this if only I rolled a guardian! GENIUS! Bioware! Sweep this man up right this minute! And his idea too while you're at it! Back to supporting you mate, now everything is clear and it's not game ruining or changing tbh. Anything I can doto help support the cause?

[Rischardo]

And I'm back on the wagon! I really want a jugger but I'm already 35 levels into my mara. Therefore your idea would fix this if only I rolled a guardian! GENIUS! Bioware! Sweep this man up right this minute! And his idea too while you're at it! Back to supporting you mate, now everything is clear and it's not game ruining or changing tbh. Anything I can doto help support the cause?

 

Happy that I was able to clear it up for ya (and sorry it took awhile to respond, I've been in the processing of moving). Just so we are clear though, in your situation, you would still need to hit 50 on your rauder then level a Jedi Guardian to 50 in order to get a 50 jug.

 

As for "supporting the cause", I'm honestly not sure how to make this thread more visible to the devs. Petitions aren't allowed and we can only hope that they will read and consider it.

 

I guess the best thing is to continue to play devil's advocate and find potential problems that would need to be addressed! Doing so would bump the thread for a reason and not just for the sake of bumping haha.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Rischardo

[Razdek]

Very well thought out idea... But it just feels tacky...and well cheating. Personally I don't like the idea it just doesn't sit right with me. I think the inclusion of an xp buff (gear/legacy) to make alt grinding quicker (so they would not have to do as many side quests and focus mostly on the class quests and republic/imp main stories) would feel less like getting a free 50. You still get rewarded for having a 50 but you still have to do some work. I think you need to do the class story for each class... Getting a free 50 skips that and it just doesnt feel right.

 

Again well thought out, but just doesnt feel right to me.

[Rischardo]

Very well thought out idea... But it just feels tacky...and well cheating. Personally I don't like the idea it just doesn't sit right with me. I think the inclusion of an xp buff (gear/legacy) to make alt grinding quicker (so they would not have to do as many side quests and focus mostly on the class quests and republic/imp main stories) would feel less like getting a free 50. You still get rewarded for having a 50 but you still have to do some work. I think you need to do the class story for each class... Getting a free 50 skips that and it just doesnt feel right.

 

Again well thought out, but just doesnt feel right to me.

 

The idea wasn't to get a "free 50"; the idea addresses the fact that some players are interested in playing certain story lines and often those story lines can be on the "opposing" faction's side.

 

Currently, it's hard to stomach the thought of leveling an opposing faction alt to 50 just to see that particular class storyline because you won't have a character you WANT to play anymore after the story is done. Or maybe you like both how a Jedi Sage and Shadow play, but you just can't bring yourself to trudge through the same old consular story again.

 

Although if the technicality of getting a free 50 is too much, I guess the idea could be modified that you had to have two 50s of the same general archetype...IE: Level an Imperial Sniper and Republic Scoundrel to 50. Once you have completed both the Imperial Agent and Smuggler stories and hit max level, you can create an Imperial Operative clone or Republic Gunslinger clone. The idea is more limited, but still useful.