Bodyward: hps diferences

[Qendra]

Thanks to the recent changes in combat loggin we are now able to compare our heals with another classes. Im doing high end PVE content with a sorcerer, and, after 2 weeks of raiding and new gear improvements, we realized that there is around 300-400 hps diference between him and me.

 

My single target healing is very similar, but he does a lot more aoe healing than me. If we are suposed to be single target healers, our single target heals must be improved asap. Else, we need some buff in our aoe mechanism.

 

My numers are between 1300 and 1500 hps in boss fights. What do you think guys?

 

PD: Sorry for my bad english :S

[Ewert]

Yes "working as intended", Bioware is hard at work at lowering the population balance of mercenaries, so they are nerfing bodyguards, pyros and arsenals till lots of people quit playing mercs.

 

 

Don't worry though, knowing Bioware this situation is not about to change anytime soon, so you can just chill and be a sucky contribution to the raid no matter how well you play, since mercs - just - suck.

[TempestasSilva]

At 1300 to 1500 HPS you are doing very well. Mind posting some logs? I'd like to see if I can find something to improve my own HPS.

 

My best boss fights are 1100 - 1250 HPS. I usually average high 900s to low 1ks, so your gear is better than mine and/or your skill is better than mine. You may actually be closer than you think. Revivification tends to overheal a lot so my guess is that as far as effective healing goes you two are pretty close. I think Torparse includes overhealing, but you can also look at your threat and calculate it. Overheals do no threat.

[Ewert]

TBH I also noticed his numbers being exceptionally high, just chalked it off to him being mainly tank healing and those tanks having high +healing received, as well as being super high geared.

 

Since for example with my pre 1.2 near BiS gear (alacrity based BiS though, not power/crit heavy low alacrity) 1500hps sustained is impossible (yes, impossible) mathematically.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing some parse logs to verify the veracity of the number claims.

[mzhou]

The disparity in hps could be do to the fact that the sorceror is casting AOE heals on people that don't really need any healing. I find that it is hard to really compare hps between classes because as healers there will be times when everyone is topped off and you don't have to heal as much. Also, if people take small amounts of damage you generally would not cast a big heal on them and would wait instead for them to maybe take a bit more damage before healing them up. However, aoe heals dont have to worry about this because they heal for small amounts as it is dealt. The aoe is more of a preventative heal, sorcs will cast it in their downtime just in case dps suddenly starts to get hit. Therefore during this whole time they are getting heals when they are already at full health. So long as you are able to burst heal and single target heal as well as sorcs and ops then imo that is all that matters.

[Qendra]

Here is an example:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4186/colonelvorgath.jpg

 

Its from yesterday raid. As you can see, my m8 is doing around 380 more hps than me :S. I dont know if this is efective or total healing...

 

Im just saying that we need a better single target mechanism, or a better aoe one to compensate that hps diference :S.

[TempestasSilva]

Can you show me threat for the same fight?

[Qendra]

Can you show me threat for the same fight?

 

This is from a diferent parser, but i dont have the sorcerer log file :S

 

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5592/colonelvorgath2.jpg

[TempestasSilva]

Unfortunately. I'd need the same thing from the sorc to compare the two. I can tell you that your total overheal is roughly 15%. I normally run about 9%, but you used Kolto Missile a ton. I expected the overheal to be much higher based on the the amount of kolto missile usage. Most of the time it must have hit 4 targets.

 

Nice job.

 

I still bet the sorc overhealed a lot more making his effective healing closer to yours. I also think you are milking more out of your class then he is out of his, but I would have to see more results.

[Qendra]

Unfortunately. I'd need the same thing from the sorc to compare the two. I can tell you that your total overheal is roughly 15%. I normally run about 9%, but you used Kolto Missile a ton. I expected the overheal to be much higher based on the the amount of kolto missile usage. Most of the time it must have hit 4 targets.

 

Nice job.

 

I still bet the sorc overhealed a lot more making his effective healing closer to yours. I also think you are milking more out of your class then he is out of his, but I would have to see more results.

 

I will try to get his log file, but the point of this thread isnt that. I just wanted to know if that diference between me (mercenary) and my friend (sorcerer) is actually normal, and... if it is, why? . We should not be that far ><

[TempestasSilva]

I know, but for the other numbers I have see sorcs are doing more and Bh's less so the gap is usually even wider, that is why I am so interested in your logs.

[Ifrit]

The HPS also doesn't take into account the small damage mitigation a merc healer adds to the tank with the +10% armor from healing scan (lasts 9 seconds, with a 12s cooldown?).

[Ewert]

I will try to get his log file, but the point of this thread isnt that. I just wanted to know if that diference between me (mercenary) and my friend (sorcerer) is actually normal, and... if it is, why? . We should not be that far ><

Actually, usually the difference is more, unfortunately. The sorc could inflate his numbers pretty majorly if he used his AoE as much as you did (relatively "as much" that is, since you used it a ton).

 

You seem to be using Kolto Missile very very much. Granted it IS our best (after Kolto Shell, which is usable much less) if it hits 3+ targets, and if you can reliably get off 4 hits you can inflate your numbers by quite a lot. However, unless the targets in question actually all need healing, it isn't worth actual healing as much as surgical healing with HS/RS and multiple HS's during gas on different people.

 

Of course if you can get off actual healing with KM on 3+ targets many times, then it is our best overall heal skill and thus you have used it correctly. Personally in our 8mans I honestly don't see nearly enough times of being able to hit 3+ people who need healing with KM for it to be worth actual healing as much as you seem to be using it. Maybe your raid likes to stick in nice groups and tend to eat a little bit extra from AoE hits overall than mine have, no clue, can't analyze things like that really.

 

To compare, with my stats, the difference between KM x2 targets healed vs. HS+HoT or RS buffed with HS proc is actually 12-25% more efficient healing with the single heals, and only KM x3 healed pushes past in being about 10% better than even HS+HoT. 4 target KM's ofcourse are awesome 55% increases over HS+HoT, Kolto Shell is even a bit better than that by about 7%.

 

If we drop your overhealing % down by lessening the use of KM and using more surgical approach, you would drop down in the HPS to "normal" levels. Back in WoW I used to manage microscopic overheal % numbers even with druid (HoT heavy class, but was tank healer), and with bounty hunter heals if you are really careful overheal % can be just minimal. Inflating overall HPS with heavy KM usage on 3+ target clusters looks nice on the overall HPS, but doesn't unfortunately deliver any more overall actual HPS...

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ewert

[Qendra]

We get tons of aoe dmg from explosive conflict hard mode bosses. Thats why i use kolto misile so much. Anyway... 114 kolto misile = 28 shots of kolto misile = 1 kolto misile each 16 s aprox

[TempestasSilva]

The HPS also doesn't take into account the small damage mitigation a merc healer adds to the tank with the +10% armor from healing scan (lasts 9 seconds, with a 12s cooldown?).

I hope that you are not trying to imply that a 10% armor increase which only helps against some damage types and is primarily only useful on a tank makes up for the OP's 300-500 HPS difference.

[TempestasSilva]

If we drop your overhealing % down by lessening the use of KM and using more surgical approach, you would drop down in the HPS to "normal" levels. Back in WoW I used to manage microscopic overheal % numbers even with druid (HoT heavy class, but was tank healer), and with bounty hunter heals if you are really careful overheal % can be just minimal. Inflating overall HPS with heavy KM usage on 3+ target clusters looks nice on the overall HPS, but doesn't unfortunately deliver any more overall actual HPS...

 

I disagree. From the numbers provided, he did an excellent job of hitting 3-4 targets who needed heals or his overhealing would have been much higher. And even if you take out ALL of his overhealing, he still has good numbers.

[rotatorkuf]

Here is an example:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4186/colonelvorgath.jpg

 

Its from yesterday raid. As you can see, my m8 is doing around 380 more hps than me :S. I dont know if this is efective or total healing...

 

Im just saying that we need a better single target mechanism, or a better aoe one to compensate that hps diference :S.

 

IMO, this is all simply because of kolto missile vs revivificaiton.

 

Imagine if kolto missile healed 8 targets instead of 4, your numbers would double and be close to if not more than the sorc heals.

 

Point being? Sorc AOE heals > Merc AOE heals

[Nuadul]

When you look at the disparity between the numbers between Mercs and Sorcs also realize that parsers do not take into account their absorbs. So the divide between us is even larger than these hps numbers show. I still believe that a BH healer can effectively heal every encounter there is to offer now, but having a well played Sorc next to you helps alot.

 

Edit; also, this may be just me, but me and alot of my guildies noticed the parser doesn't always know when a fight stops. Many times we would end a fight and everyones hps/dps numbers would slowly trickle down when loot was going out as if the fight timer was still going. It would make a 1200hps fight end at 700 when the loot was finished.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Nuadul

[TempestasSilva]

When you look at the disparity between the numbers between Mercs and Sorcs also realize that parsers do not take into account their absorbs. So the divide between us is even larger than these hps numbers show. I still believe that a BH healer can effectively heal every encounter there is to offer now, but having a well played Sorc next to you helps alot.

 

Edit; also, this may be just me, but me and alot of my guildies noticed the parser doesn't always know when a fight stops. Many times we would end a fight and everyones hps/dps numbers would slowly trickle down when loot was going out as if the fight timer was still going. It would make a 1200hps fight end at 700 when the loot was finished.

Could not agree more and have noticed that as well. My only guess is that someone still has a dot or debuff on them but I have not investigated.

[Ewert]

I disagree. From the numbers provided, he did an excellent job of hitting 3-4 targets who needed heals or his overhealing would have been much higher. And even if you take out ALL of his overhealing, he still has good numbers.

I think I was bit unclear and you misunderstood, I meant in a general sense of "if dropping overheals away", not in those exact logs.

 

Anyways, I can not see any way to calculate overheal % from those log screenshots. Are you thinking of differences between min max and avg or something? Those can't be used due to buffs, heal% received etc. differences, even if they did show just actual heals, which as far as I know, they don't. Maybe I'm just blind and missing something, but I couldn't see any way to calculate overheal% from those ... 30%+ from KM is pretty big, and as far as I can see, we can't deduce anything of overhealing from those logs, so a sorc could pump out 2000+ hps by using his AoE more.

 

1500 * 0.85 = 1275, if we take your word of "15%" overheal. Also based on his quite low number of Rapid Shots as well as high heal values, I reckon he is low alacrity built, but would be easier if he just said his +heal, crit% surge% haste% values.

 

PS. I do HM EC too, but it can be little things like the activity of tanks pulling small adds to themselves instead of letting a dps tank them etc. that change the value of KM vs single target healing. Those are not analyzable things really though.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ewert

[TempestasSilva]

NOTE: IN GOING OVEr THIS, I REALIZED I MADE A MISTAKE ABOVE. something is screwy with the log and his overheal is not 15%, I don't know what it is.

 

You can calculate overheal by looking at his threat. Healing by definition does 50% threat. So if I healed for 2000, my threat would be 1000. However, overhealing does no threat. So if I throw a 2000 heal, but only 1000 heals and the rest is overheal, my threat is only 500. Then OPs and BH's can reduce threat 10% with a talant. Sorcs, 15%. So Merc/op's threat is 0.5 times 0.9 = 0.45 while Sorc is 0.5 time .85 = 0.425

 

So then in reality if you look at:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5592/colonelvorgath2.jpg

 

His total HPS was 1522 (rounded). 1522 * 0.45 = 684. So with 0% overhealing he would have done 684 TPS. But it shows 798. It should show less, so something is jacked up. I took the smaller number and divided by the larger to get the %, but its like he underhealed by 15%??!? I didn't notice it before, so I take back what I said.

 

If you look at this log that shows threat for each skill, it is easy to use the above and seems to work perfectly.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/2b593ba0-0ce5-4821-83f3-0c98b0fa2e02#d=1,f=15

Notice for example, my rapid scans did 36986. I didn't have the threat reducing talent so Multiply that by my threat 36986 * 0.5 = 18493. But my threat was 16640. 16640/18493 =.89 so my overheal was 11%.

 

If you want further simple verification that this works, look here:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/2b593ba0-0ce5-4821-83f3-0c98b0fa2e02#d=1,f=14

Look at the medpack. I would not use it at >40% health so there can be no overhealing. 1 use for 4759. 4759 * 0.5 = 2379, exactly what the threat shows.

 

So it can be calculated, but their is something wrong with the logs or parser shown by the OP.

Edited April 26, 2012 by TempestasSilva

[Qendra]

I made an account in askmrrobot and uploaded yesterday log

 

This one is from karagas palace nightmare.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/6af084c1-102c-4b7b-8645-a40d210fa800#d=1,f=36

 

Seems like the threat is calculated correctly here :S

Edited April 26, 2012 by Qendra
Add info

[Ewert]

I made an account in askmrrobot and uploaded yesterday log

 

This one is from karagas palace nightmare.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/6af084c1-102c-4b7b-8645-a40d210fa800#d=1,f=36

 

Seems like the threat is calculated correctly here :S

Honestly my opinion? Your dps guys were bored since your raid can do it one eye closed and didnt bother moving out much from AoEs that fast, as well as your sorc is slacking. Granted Karagga is filled with aoe, as well as raid placement tends to not have much room to spread, so is a rather extreme example of the usability of KM.

 

Nice to know that threat-based overheal estimate. Based on that and your high overheal% on KM, resulting in approx 2.8 healing hits per KM, that happens to unfortunately be about as good as HS+HoT overall, so as I suspected earlier you are pretty much keeping pace with surgical healing with your KM spam style healing (I definitely call that spread "spam" of KM vs HS/RS). Your overall value is pretty damn high, your Rapid Shots amount is low, your Rapid Shots values are high, so I'm betting since you didn't say that you have pretty damn high power, definitely not a non-swapped alacrity containing gear based on those numbers.

 

Oh and btw, you had some super luck with RNG, both RS and HS with 60+% crits? Wow talk about rng inflating the overall hps.

 

Anyways, tell your aim/power/crit/surge/alacrity raidbuffed, helps a bit examining the stuff.

 

Also unfortunately it remains that a sorc using their AoE more would totally blow you away.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ewert

[GeckoOBac]

NOTE: IN GOING OVEr THIS, I REALIZED I MADE A MISTAKE ABOVE. something is screwy with the log and his overheal is not 15%, I don't know what it is.

 

You can calculate overheal by looking at his threat. Healing by definition does 50% threat. So if I healed for 2000, my threat would be 1000. However, overhealing does no threat. So if I throw a 2000 heal, but only 1000 heals and the rest is overheal, my threat is only 500. Then OPs and BH's can reduce threat 10% with a talant. Sorcs, 15%. So Merc/op's threat is 0.5 times 0.9 = 0.45 while Sorc is 0.5 time .85 = 0.425

 

So then in reality if you look at:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5592/colonelvorgath2.jpg

 

His total HPS was 1522 (rounded). 1522 * 0.45 = 684. So with 0% overhealing he would have done 684 TPS. But it shows 798. It should show less, so something is jacked up. I took the smaller number and divided by the larger to get the %, but its like he underhealed by 15%??!? I didn't notice it before, so I take back what I said.

 

If you look at this log that shows threat for each skill, it is easy to use the above and seems to work perfectly.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/2b593ba0-0ce5-4821-83f3-0c98b0fa2e02#d=1,f=15

Notice for example, my rapid scans did 36986. I didn't have the threat reducing talent so Multiply that by my threat 36986 * 0.5 = 18493. But my threat was 16640. 16640/18493 =.89 so my overheal was 11%.

 

If you want further simple verification that this works, look here:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/2b593ba0-0ce5-4821-83f3-0c98b0fa2e02#d=1,f=14

Look at the medpack. I would not use it at >40% health so there can be no overhealing. 1 use for 4759. 4759 * 0.5 = 2379, exactly what the threat shows.

 

So it can be calculated, but their is something wrong with the logs or parser shown by the OP.

 

Aren't you forgetting the threat reduction granted by guard? And a possible use of threat dumps (though I don't know if those show up in the logs)

Edited April 27, 2012 by GeckoOBac

[Qendra]

Honestly my opinion? Your dps guys were bored since your raid can do it one eye closed and didnt bother moving out much from AoEs that fast, as well as your sorc is slacking. Granted Karagga is filled with aoe, as well as raid placement tends to not have much room to spread, so is a rather extreme example of the usability of KM.

 

Nice to know that threat-based overheal estimate. Based on that and your high overheal% on KM, resulting in approx 2.8 healing hits per KM, that happens to unfortunately be about as good as HS+HoT overall, so as I suspected earlier you are pretty much keeping pace with surgical healing with your KM spam style healing (I definitely call that spread "spam" of KM vs HS/RS). Your overall value is pretty damn high, your Rapid Shots amount is low, your Rapid Shots values are high, so I'm betting since you didn't say that you have pretty damn high power, definitely not a non-swapped alacrity containing gear based on those numbers.

 

Oh and btw, you had some super luck with RNG, both RS and HS with 60+% crits? Wow talk about rng inflating the overall hps.

 

Anyways, tell your aim/power/crit/surge/alacrity raidbuffed, helps a bit examining the stuff.

 

Also unfortunately it remains that a sorc using their AoE more would totally blow you away.

 

I just posted the logs because they where surprised about 1300-1500 hps in a mercenary... the point of this thread isnt that... You can see other fights in my logs where i use kolto much less... and still get 1300+ but again, that is not the point!!

 

Anyway, i will be pleased to see your logs and see where and what im doing wrong. I use kolto misile so much because i see the hp of 3+ ppl going down and i think: they need heal now, also dmg reduction!!

HS have a 7,5 seg CD, so i can combine both, but if there is a better way to heal that players i'll be happy changing my heal style.

 

The point is that, potentially, a sorcerer can heal much more than we, and that diference should not be so high ><. If we dont move, we are going to be behind forever guys :S.