Healing role distinctions

[Bluetickone]

Our "supermode" has gotten to the point where people don't feel bad clicking it off immediately for marginally more ammo.

 

This is clearest example I can give as to why GZ borked 1.2 so badly. I always find it better to cancel SCC than to make use of the AMP/MP combos. Anything more than -- max -- two AMP/MP combos and its a wipe. I usually find even stringing two AMP/MP combs together kills my juice. The math shows just how much CMs were wrecked by 1.2.

 

SCC is the defining class ability and what made us powerful in pvp and pve, mainly because of the ability to chain MP+AMP. In PVP we are extremely vulnerable to interrupts. But we could create windows of pure brilliance where the sent/mara/jug/gard was cc'd or knockedback, pop SCCs and bring a raid up; you, know heal others and contribute to the team. Otherwise, it was just about surviving until that one moment or window opened up. Hit that window, and do it right by controlling the interrupters, and CMs were godly. Miss it and CMs were subpar and a wasted spot. IMO, nerfing SCCs and the MP/AMP combo so hard made us unplayable in pvp. But how bad is that hit?

 

Working with baselines here: MP = 3 ammo/2 secs; AMP = 2 ammo/1.5 secs. AMP + MP combo = 3 ammo (pre 1.2) 4 (post 1.2). SCC = 2 ammo (pre 1.2) 1 (post 1.2). Ammo regen between 8-12 is .6/sec.

 

Net ammo per AMP+MP combo:

 

1) pre 1.2: +.6; post 1.2: -.9

2) pre 1.2: -.8; post 1.2: -2.8

3) pre 1.2: -2.2; post 1.2: -4.7

4) pre 1.2: -3.6; post 1.2 *** are you doing?

5) pre 1.2: -5; post 1.2 LOL, you're dead for the second time right?

 

Math tells it all. Before 1.2 we could afford to cast 5 AMP+MP combos without significantly destroying our ammo pool and combat effectiveness (though technically you can only cast 3 in the SCC window so 4 max with alacrity boost). Post 1.2 you can cast it twice. Congrats, you're less than half the healer you once were; thats a MASSIVE nerf.

 

Edit/Note: this is also where the difference between Commandos and Mercs makes a huge difference.

 

Commando's regen windows are 0-25%, 25%-67%, and 67%-100%. Compare this to the resource windows for our mirror, the Mercenary, which are 0-20%, 21-60%, and 61%-100%. This means that aMercenary actually can chain a third combo without an unrecoverable hit to heat.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Bluetickone

[Slipt]

My operative's Kolto Injection can crit for like 6.2k with relics and adrenals

Burst isn't really a problem.

 

7.3k on my rapid scan with rakata power adrenal, but no relics.

 

Ok fine, you got me... it was 7283.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Slipt

[Arzoo]

7.3k on my rapid scan with rakata power adrenal, but no relics.

 

Ok fine, you got me... it was 7283.

 

Try combining it with the reactive shield self-healing bonus. I once stacked every single heal increase bonus on myself, popped relic (not adrenal though), and tried to get the highest number possible. This was prior to the ubernerf too. I wish I remember what number I got. I want to say it was above 10k.

[Sogar]

Combat Medics offer no strengths. I have never seen a Sorc or Op healer look at one of my abilities and say "wow that's awesome I wish I could do that." The only AoE heal anyone wants to talk about is Salvation. Bacta Infusion is, when you think about it, just a shorter cooldown on the tech-override/reserve-cell/MP combo. Our HoT is meh. Our resource management is dead last. Our "supermode" has gotten to the point where people don't feel bad clicking it off immediately for marginally more ammo. The only description other healers gave trauma probe, when it was FREE. was, "it's like earthshield except it sucks."

 

Nobody wants our tools. Our tools suck; even our "strongest" ones are just marginally stronger versions of what other classes get. Why do you think we're asking for them to either not suck or for some of the actually good tools that other classes get?

 

I'm an Op healer and I wish my HoT or my Kolto Injection had the armor boost you have on preventive medicine. I wish I had Bacta Infusion (or even your tech-override/reserve-cell/MP combo). I wish my AoE heal had a healing bonus on it (the damage reduction too even if it would not make sense).

 

Numbers are just numbers. Mercs have a ton of buffs and are capable of big instant heals, 2 things any op healer will always envy you. Who would ever want to use kolto infusion honestly?

 

The fact that a Merc/Merc combo is the worst healer combos does not mean mercs are bad. I honestly think that a merc complement a sorc/operative better than another sorc/operative. Homogenisation would be a bad thing IMO.

 

I still think they need a small buff (SCC, real AoE healing) but they seem perfectly capable to me. And yes, I know their numbers aren't as good but numbers don't account for all the utility and flexibility they bring (aka they are still the best burst healers).

[RuQu]

I still think they need a small buff (SCC, real AoE healing) but they seem perfectly capable to me. And yes, I know their numbers aren't as good but numbers don't account for all the utility and flexibility they bring (aka they are still the best burst healers).

 

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

 

Their burst is absolutely terrible. The changes to SCC to only restore 1 Ammo and to Field Triage to only reduce MP by 1 (instead of 2 in both cases pre-1.2) essentially removed any and all burst capability. You took a resource pool (for Mercs) that was essentially identical to yours as an Operative, and with the same cost for the sustained rotation (25%). Our burst before was 'do the sustained rotation as a chain, with no pauses to regen.' Now, our cost has increased to 33%, and we lost regen capacity.

 

Look at it this way. Your Surgical Probe now costs 8 Energy, and Stim Boost now restores 1 Energy per 3 seconds (you had higher net regen before the SCC nerf from Stim Boost alone, even ignoring the scaling regen of DS).

 

How much burst could you do chaining KI/SP together under those conditions? They are almost exactly identical to the current state of Mercs (because class design is very simplistic and not actually very different except for cosmetics between Merc/Op/Sc/Commando).

 

As for the utility, they slashed almost all of that as well. KB healing buff got slashed, KB DR shield got slashed. And let's not forget that you still have little control over who KB heals and it doesnt smart heal. We still have the armor buff from AP. Sages bring that exact same armor buff plus a substantially larger set of utility tools.

 

As for flexibility, with all of the hits to efficiency, you can't afford to deviate from a fairly fixed rotation. Mercs and Commandos now have just as little flexibility in their rotation as Op/Sc do.

 

I guess that's what they meant by "improved class balance." On the plus side...lack of deviation means more reliable metrics. Everyone loves some good solid metrics!

[Sogar]

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

 

Their burst is absolutely terrible. The changes to SCC to only restore 1 Ammo and to Field Triage to only reduce MP by 1 (instead of 2 in both cases pre-1.2) essentially removed any and all burst capability. You took a resource pool (for Mercs) that was essentially identical to yours as an Operative, and with the same cost for the sustained rotation (25%). Our burst before was 'do the sustained rotation as a chain, with no pauses to regen.' Now, our cost has increased to 33%, and we lost regen capacity.

 

Look at it this way. Your Surgical Probe now costs 8 Energy, and Stim Boost now restores 1 Energy per 3 seconds (you had higher net regen before the SCC nerf from Stim Boost alone, even ignoring the scaling regen of DS).

 

How much burst could you do chaining KI/SP together under those conditions? They are almost exactly identical to the current state of Mercs (because class design is very simplistic and not actually very different except for cosmetics between Merc/Op/Sc/Commando).

 

As for the utility, they slashed almost all of that as well. KB healing buff got slashed, KB DR shield got slashed. And let's not forget that you still have little control over who KB heals and it doesnt smart heal. We still have the armor buff from AP. Sages bring that exact same armor buff plus a substantially larger set of utility tools.

 

As for flexibility, with all of the hits to efficiency, you can't afford to deviate from a fairly fixed rotation. Mercs and Commandos now have just as little flexibility in their rotation as Op/Sc do.

 

I guess that's what they meant by "improved class balance." On the plus side...lack of deviation means more reliable metrics. Everyone loves some good solid metrics!

 

Having your edges slashed does not mean that they do not exist anymore. KB still has a healing buff and a DR shield and brings unique utility because of that, mercs are still the only class that have access to an instant heal that can heal for 6k+ (and actually 2 of them) ... even if the sorc shield is great is that area too.

Combat medic burst healing is still better than the one you have on an operative healer or a sorc healer.

 

The only thing you proved is that mercs got nerfed in all those departments but I never denied that, all I said is that it's still an edge they have over other healing classes. And yeah, I know that Mercs have a lot less flexibility than before but you still have several tools to boost your healing output if needed (I mean other tools than a relic/adrenal). They do need small quality of life boosts IMO (like operative healers got) but they can still get the job done well.

They clearly don't bring the insane AoE heal of a sorc or the sustain healing of an operative but they bring everything else. People looks too much at numbers IMO.

[RuQu]

Having your edges slashed does not mean that they do not exist anymore. KB still has a healing buff and a DR shield and brings unique utility because of that, mercs are still the only class that have access to an instant heal that can heal for 6k+ (and actually 2 of them) ... even if the sorc shield is great is that area too.

Combat medic burst healing is still better than the one you have on an operative healer or a sorc healer.

 

The only thing you proved is that mercs got nerfed in all those departments but I never denied that, all I said is that it's still an edge they have over other healing classes. And yeah, I know that Mercs have a lot less flexibility than before but you still have several tools to boost your healing output if needed (I mean other tools than a relic/adrenal). They do need small quality of life boosts IMO (like operative healers got) but they can still get the job done well.

They clearly don't bring the insane AoE heal of a sorc or the sustain healing of an operative but they bring everything else. People looks too much at numbers IMO.

 

First, I said nothing about the relative numbers of classes. I put the changes in efficiency in terms relevant to your class.

 

I think we have two primary sources of miscommunication going on.

 

1) Different definitions of burst. BI is not a burst heal, it is an instant heal. Even if it heals for 6k, it has a 21s cooldown. Assuming that you sat on it and waited for the right moment, you could use it once. Even accepting the 6k number without bothering to check how reasonable that is, you could heal 6k once per 21s. That is a spike, a crit on the tank. It isn't burst. Burst is a phase or window in which a sudden increase is needed, such as the frenzy on Gharj or Foreman Crusher. Burst is where you do heavy, but unsustainable long-term, healing for a short period and then recover. That is not BI, that is the ability to chain AP/MP and recover.

 

2) I think you are suffering from a serious case of "Grass is Greener" with little idea of how a class actually plays. You see these things ("Oh wow, look at that instant heal! And that 2-min cooldown instant! Oh the places I would go if only I had those!") and think of them in isolation, out of the context of how the class plays at all.

 

BI is a core part of the Combat Medic rotation, and is used to stay above 8 Ammo. BI should be used any and every time someone needs a heal and you have less than 11 Ammo (because you regen 0.9 while on GCD). The 2-minute cooldown instant ability is, actually two abilities, one that makes it free and one that makes it instant. The free ability is used as part of Ammo management, or held in reserve for a last ditch heal after unsustainable burst leaves you empty but another heal is still needed. The instant cooldown is handy, I won't deny that, but a 2-minute cooldown can hardly be called an enviable part of the toolkit when it is used at most twice a fight, and many healers often forget to use it at all.

 

Looking at BI in isolation is the same mistake Georg Zoeller made that got him laughed at by every Op/Sc out there when he said that SP was a burst healing capability, demonstrating complete ignorance of how an Operative heals (maintaining 1 stack of TA and spamming KI/SP). A single (fairly weak) SP on top of your stock rotation while sacrificing a % Healing buff is not exactly burst.

 

 

Commandos and Mercs were amazing burst healers before, especially in high levels of gear when the amount of Power and Crit on their gear outstripped the damage coming in from bosses and they could swap to an Alacrity heavy build. None of their old burst healing potential came from BI or those two cooldowns, it was entirely centered around the power of SCC and AP/MP. To say that Mercs are still good at burst is to demonstrate ignorance of both how they play and the source of their burst power pre-nerf.

[Xaearth]

To expand upon RuQu's reply from my far less experienced POV:

 

Having your edges slashed does not mean that they do not exist anymore.

 

It does when you can no longer afford to use them as "edges".

Not only were the Merc/Commando utility buffs tied onto their heals significantly nerfed, but the heavy hit to their resource management took away any viable means of using them in a strategic way.

 

KB still has a healing buff and a DR shield and brings unique utility because of that

 

In other words, KB is no longer used for the buffs, and instead solely for the healing... which kinda sucks for an ability that doesn't reliably heal who you want it to.

 

You won't see a Merc/Commando healer go "Oh hey, lemme toss down my AoE, worst case scenario I top a few people off and give them a bit of a buff" anymore.

Instead it's "Oh ****, I need to lay down some AoE healing, hopefully it hits the right people. Huh? What's that? Oh yeah, it does that buff thing too."

Essentially it was another choice gutted from their strategic use of their Supercharged Gas mechanic.

 

Edit:

Oooh, I just came up with a good motto for Merc/Commando healers:

"Bodyguards/Combat Medics: Our AoE heal gives buffs as a boobie prize. :cool:"

Edited May 10, 2012 by Xaearth

[RuQu]

Edit:

Oooh, I just came up with a good motto for Merc/Commando healers:

"Bodyguards/Combat Medics: We get AoE buffs as a boobie prize. :cool:"

 

Except that BG/CM always did AoE through high efficiency single-target spam, like a BC-era Holy Paladin due to the unreliable low target AoE heal. KB is still an unreliable low target heal, we just no longer have high efficiency spam as an option. In practice, the changes actually amount to a net BG/CM AoE healing nerf.

[Xaearth]

Except that BG/CM always did AoE through high efficiency single-target spam, like a BC-era Holy Paladin due to the unreliable low target AoE heal. KB is still an unreliable low target heal, we just no longer have high efficiency spam as an option. In practice, the changes actually amount to a net BG/CM AoE healing nerf.

 

Yeah, I was referring to the utility buffs tied in to your AoE heal... being a boobie prize for not actually hitting the people you want to heal.

 

I reworded it... dunno why I couldn't get it to come out right before, but I think that's better.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Xaearth

[Kallti]

Having your edges slashed does not mean that they do not exist anymore. KB still has a healing buff and a DR shield and brings unique utility because of that, mercs are still the only class that have access to an instant heal that can heal for 6k+ (and actually 2 of them) ... even if the sorc shield is great is that area too.

Combat medic burst healing is still better than the one you have on an operative healer or a sorc healer.

 

The only thing you proved is that mercs got nerfed in all those departments but I never denied that, all I said is that it's still an edge they have over other healing classes. And yeah, I know that Mercs have a lot less flexibility than before but you still have several tools to boost your healing output if needed (I mean other tools than a relic/adrenal). They do need small quality of life boosts IMO (like operative healers got) but they can still get the job done well.

They clearly don't bring the insane AoE heal of a sorc or the sustain healing of an operative but they bring everything else. People looks too much at numbers IMO.

 

RuQu nailed it with his response, I will only add that all the Merc healers I know now actually click off their SCG buff straight away after using it so that they can start building stacks again, i.e. it is only a heat management ability now and none of the "utility" it provides is used.

 

There is no way you can argue for good class design when the class defining ability is being clicked off.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Kallti

[Sogar]

First, I said nothing about the relative numbers of classes. I put the changes in efficiency in terms relevant to your class.

 

I think we have two primary sources of miscommunication going on.

 

1) Different definitions of burst. BI is not a burst heal, it is an instant heal. Even if it heals for 6k, it has a 21s cooldown. Assuming that you sat on it and waited for the right moment, you could use it once. Even accepting the 6k number without bothering to check how reasonable that is, you could heal 6k once per 21s. That is a spike, a crit on the tank. It isn't burst. Burst is a phase or window in which a sudden increase is needed, such as the frenzy on Gharj or Foreman Crusher. Burst is where you do heavy, but unsustainable long-term, healing for a short period and then recover. That is not BI, that is the ability to chain AP/MP and recover.

 

2) I think you are suffering from a serious case of "Grass is Greener" with little idea of how a class actually plays. You see these things ("Oh wow, look at that instant heal! And that 2-min cooldown instant! Oh the places I would go if only I had those!") and think of them in isolation, out of the context of how the class plays at all.

 

BI is a core part of the Combat Medic rotation, and is used to stay above 8 Ammo. BI should be used any and every time someone needs a heal and you have less than 11 Ammo (because you regen 0.9 while on GCD). The 2-minute cooldown instant ability is, actually two abilities, one that makes it free and one that makes it instant. The free ability is used as part of Ammo management, or held in reserve for a last ditch heal after unsustainable burst leaves you empty but another heal is still needed. The instant cooldown is handy, I won't deny that, but a 2-minute cooldown can hardly be called an enviable part of the toolkit when it is used at most twice a fight, and many healers often forget to use it at all.

 

Looking at BI in isolation is the same mistake Georg Zoeller made that got him laughed at by every Op/Sc out there when he said that SP was a burst healing capability, demonstrating complete ignorance of how an Operative heals (maintaining 1 stack of TA and spamming KI/SP). A single (fairly weak) SP on top of your stock rotation while sacrificing a % Healing buff is not exactly burst.

 

 

Commandos and Mercs were amazing burst healers before, especially in high levels of gear when the amount of Power and Crit on their gear outstripped the damage coming in from bosses and they could swap to an Alacrity heavy build. None of their old burst healing potential came from BI or those two cooldowns, it was entirely centered around the power of SCC and AP/MP. To say that Mercs are still good at burst is to demonstrate ignorance of both how they play and the source of their burst power pre-nerf.

 

1/ Actually you are right 6k is not for BI (which should not go over 5k) but the "two min CD instant ability that is 2 ability off-CD" (and yeah I knew that). And yeah, that example was poorly chosen because it was more about spike healing than burst healing (both of which commandos are perfectly capable).

 

2/ And again you are only comparing to how it was before and not the other classes. No other healing class can beat the burst of a Healing Scan/Rapid Scan/Emergency scan (or the 2min CD)/Healing Scan (which should cost you 15 heat or a bit less than 2 ammo). The fact that the AP/MP combo is not as good as before does not make it worse than what other have right now. No other healer can get close to a merc under SCG for burst phase. Sure you can't sustain it as long but better is still better.

 

3/ SP does 60% of the healing of BI. Most operatives still use it in during burst phases. But yeah, it is not a burst heal and I hate when people tell me I can burst heal someone under 30% because of it.

 

4/ Yes I know, you should use BI and supercharge cell mainly for ressource management now. Both those skills are still more of "on demand" than "on CD". I also said that mercs needed quality of life buffs remember.

 

@Xaearth : Actually kolto bomb should still be used for the DR buff sometimes ... that said the healing bonus should not be tied with it IMO because as you said you use it mostly as an AoE heal now and need tools that help that (like a HoT). That's why I said they should change it in my post just before.

 

@Kaltti : and I'm sure I will too once I finish levelling my merc (well not immediately because I will want the shield and being able to spam healing scan has its use) . It is a shame and a fail as a design (not as big as Kolto infusion though). That does not mean that you don't have the option to use it often.

[RuQu]

 

2/ And again you are only comparing to how it was before and not the other classes. No other healing class can beat the burst of a Healing Scan/Rapid Scan/Emergency scan (or the 2min CD)/Healing Scan (which should cost you 15 heat or a bit less than 2 ammo). The fact that the AP/MP combo is not as good as before does not make it worse than what other have right now. No other healer can get close to a merc under SCG for burst phase. Sure you can't sustain it as long but better is still better.

 

While Combat Medic is my specialty, I think I can competently discuss the other healer classes, and I am aware of their abilities, competencies, and capabilities.

 

When I say that the changes make Combat Medic burst non-existent, I am not engaging in hyperbole and I don't really mean "it got weaker but is still there."

 

The changes to SCC and AP/MP make the burst spam ~30% less efficient. The changes to AP/MP combo cost make spamming AP actually stronger so long as you swap targets. This completely breaks a 3 point talent.

 

The overall reduction in Ammo efficiency also means engaging in any burst at all, any period of low-efficiency, is extra punishing. It is harder to recover, and burst healing should be absolutely avoided at all costs. It isn't a viable strategy to use as needed, it is what you do as a last ditch to avoid a wipe and then hope that they kill the boss in the 10s of healing you have before you are completely spent (if your Recharge Cells is on its 2-min cooldown). The ability to burst once every 2-minutes is not burst capability, because fights are not designed with 2 minute delays between mechanics.

 

Instead, look at the other two classes, since you said I ignored them. With the increase in UH/TA stacks, you can now feasibly use Kolto Infusion to increase your HPS. It is, obviously, less efficient than SP, but it is definitely higher HPS, and the efficiency/throughput trade is what defines burst. Kolto Infusion still has a bad rep, but if you have your set bonus it has a very high crit rate, and K.Inj / K.Inf spam is quite high HPS...for a cost. They also increased your ability to regen by making DS more usable, and the extra UH/TA means fewer procs lost from SRMP/KP, so you could also try a semi-burst rotation of KInj/KInf/SP for a medium cost - medium HPS burst.

 

For Sages, of course they have their bubble, followed by their HoT, then the huge crit buff on their flash heal, and repeat those until out of Force as cooldowns and debuffs allow. That would burn force like made (because Benevolence is too expensive to be really useful), but it would also make for high burst, and their large pool allows for it to be sustained longer than a CM could ever hope to keep up with the new AP/MP.

 

4/ Yes I know, you should use BI and supercharge cell mainly for ressource management now. Both those skills are still more of "on demand" than "on CD". I also said that mercs needed quality of life buffs remember.

 

They need far more than QoL changes. This won't be fixed by giving us 15 Ammo or making SCC only need 15 charges. They broke the design of the class. The abilities do not work together anymore. The synergy is gone. That is what offended everyone so much. If they simply slashed the coefficients, people would compare the HPS logs and complain, but they wouldn't have all left the game. I'd still be playing.... The changes they made weren't nerfs, they were a ham-fisted redesign, although probably unintentional since it is clear they put no thought into it and the people who made the changes to BG/CM had clearly never actually played one. Ever. There is no way you could suggest those changes if you had any concept of how the abilities worked together.

[Kallti]

@Kaltti : and I'm sure I will too once I finish levelling my merc (well not immediately because I will want the shield and being able to spam healing scan has its use) . It is a shame and a fail as a design (not as big as Kolto infusion though). That does not mean that you don't have the option to use it often.

 

No, you don't have the option to use it often. You are completely missing the point. Mercs currently do not have an option to use SCG, they absolutely must use it as a heat drop and then click off the buff which not only wastes a lot of talent points in the tree it kills most of the utility built into the class and the burst in one hit.

 

I'm going to stop here because I'm not sure what you are arguing any more as you started off by saying that Mercs have more utility than other classes and can burst better than other classes, however you mention you plan to not use SCG (click it off) when you get to level 50 on your own Merc. These two statements are at odds with each other.

 

If you can accept that SCG was what made Mercs good during burst phases, which it was, and you are planning to click off the buff on your own Merc and use SCG only as a heat drop, then you must conclude that Mercs are no longer the burst phase kings they were.

[RuQu]

I should note that while I point out how the other two ACs can do burst and the BG/CM burst was destroyed, I am not claiming any of them actually have well-designed burst ability. The Devs have made it clear that they don't like burst healing, possibly related to their dislike of PvP healing and how burst HPS counters burst DPS.

[Sogar]

While Combat Medic is my specialty, I think I can competently discuss the other healer classes, and I am aware of their abilities, competencies, and capabilities.

 

[...]

 

Instead, look at the other two classes, since you said I ignored them. With the increase in UH/TA stacks, you can now feasibly use Kolto Infusion to increase your HPS. It is, obviously, less efficient than SP, but it is definitely higher HPS, and the efficiency/throughput trade is what defines burst. Kolto Infusion still has a bad rep, but if you have your set bonus it has a very high crit rate, and K.Inj / K.Inf spam is quite high HPS...for a cost. They also increased your ability to regen by making DS more usable, and the extra UH/TA means fewer procs lost from SRMP/KP, so you could also try a semi-burst rotation of KInj/KInf/SP for a medium cost - medium HPS burst.

 

For Sages, of course they have their bubble, followed by their HoT, then the huge crit buff on their flash heal, and repeat those until out of Force as cooldowns and debuffs allow. That would burn force like made (because Benevolence is too expensive to be really useful), but it would also make for high burst, and their large pool allows for it to be sustained longer than a CM could ever hope to keep up with the new AP/MP.

 

 

And you just lost all credibility to me. You clearly have no idea how other classes work. I don't want to be mean so I'll keep it simple.

 

The KInj/K.Inf spam heals for less and costs a lot more ressource (45 instead of 33 even if operatives regenerate 1 more energy per second than merc vents heat that is huge) than the HS/RS (or AP/MP) spam and that's not counting the armor buff. And yeah, talking about using SP in a burst situation is like talking about using Kolto Shell ... best idea ever.

 

For sorcs they are limited by their CD, the flash heal (and the long heal) is the only one that does not have one and the average heal on it is ridiculously low (even with the crit bonus) for high force usage. They do have a large pool but no regeneration ... so yeah they might a tiny bit longer but the HPS would be far less and the sustainibility far less too.

I can assure you that when a sorceror has to use his dark heal, he does not want to spam it.

 

I think your last post described well your point of view. It has nothing to do with Healing role distinctions, rather to changes and the range of what a healer can and can not do.

 

We may discuss about what combat medic lost with 1.2 for pages but that has never been the point of this topic. This topic is about the forces and weaknesses of the healing classes between one and another.

[RuQu]

And you just lost all credibility to me. You clearly have no idea how other classes work. I don't want to be mean so I'll keep it simple.

 

The KInj/K.Inf spam heals for less and costs a lot more ressource (45 instead of 33 even if operatives regenerate 1 more energy per second than merc vents heat that is huge) than the HS/RS (or AP/MP) spam and that's not counting the armor buff. And yeah, talking about using SP in a burst situation is like talking about using Kolto Shell ... best idea ever.

 

For sorcs they are limited by their CD, the flash heal (and the long heal) is the only one that does not have one and the average heal on it is ridiculously low (even with the crit bonus) for high force usage. They do have a large pool but no regeneration ... so yeah they might a tiny bit longer but the HPS would be far less and the sustainibility far less too.

I can assure you that when a sorceror has to use his dark heal, he does not want to spam it.

 

I think your last post described well your point of view. It has nothing to do with Healing role distinctions, rather to changes and the range of what a healer can and can not do.

 

We may discuss about what combat medic lost with 1.2 for pages but that has never been the point of this topic. This topic is about the forces and weaknesses of the healing classes between one and another.

 

Quick answer this question: What is the purpose of discussion and debate, to arrive at the correct answer or to convince everyone that your answer is correct?

 

Step away from the entrenched position, and reread my post. Then reread your post.

 

In my previous post I explicitly say this about the Sage rotation:

For Sages, of course they have their bubble, followed by their HoT, then the huge crit buff on their flash heal, and repeat those until out of Force as cooldowns and debuffs allow

 

That's the first of only two sentences on Sages. You were too busy trying to find ways to "win" that you stopped actually attempting to have a conversation. To take what I thought was obvious in that quote and make it more explicit, you can only cast Force Armor once per 21s, so don't try and cast it as the first of three spells in a rotation, recast it only when the debuff is gone. Don't keep spamming the Rejuvenate button....use it only when it is off of cooldown. Fill in any free GCD in your burst due to those cooldowns and debuffs with Benevolence.

 

And yes, obviously Force burn is an issue, but that is the trade-off of burst vs sustained. They are not without tools, they can cast Rejuv->Salvation->NSx4 while standing in the Salv to heal themselves.

 

As for Operatives, it isn't about KI/Kinf vs AP/MP, it is about KI/Kinf vs KI/SP. Burst vs Sustained. You have a standard rotation which is sustainable indefinitely if you stay above 60 Energy. You have two options for Burst, replace SP with Kinf, or stay with KI/SP but don't worry about the 60 Energy level, just burn right through it.

 

The first option is not efficient, but it does have much higher HPS than KI/SP. You also have a tool with semi-fixed bonus regen, DS, so you have an option to Burst-Recover, if your burst HPS can cover the burst DPS incoming. So long as the burst DPS is followed by a lull, you can afford to switch to DS and KP refresh with SP for TA proc consumption. If there is no lull or your burst HPS doesn't match the burst DPS coming in...then you are in trouble if these phases happen more then every 2 minutes.

 

The second option isn't really burst, it is chain healing your sustainable rotation in an unsustainable manner. You didn't break out a new tool, your HPS simply couldn't math the DPS coming in and you had to heal out of your efficiency zone. This was the very design complaint that lead to Sc/Op saying they had no burst pre-1.2. This is now the exact situation that BG/CM are in, their "burst" isn't doing anything different except ignoring Ammo limits and hoping they aren't completely screwed after the run out of Ammo.

 

As for your dismissal of weaving SP into burst, you are a) clearly just being dismissive because winning is all that matters to you and b) being internally inconsistent since you seem to not consider Kinf worth using at all and appear to favor the second method of burst described above: unrestricted KI/SP spam. Again, if you set aside the need to win and look back at what was actually said, the point was that you can weave in SP to consume TA procs in lieu of a double KInf to strike some middle ground in burst. If you use KI/KInf with KInf for every TA proc from KP, you will burn energy far faster than if you use Ki/Kinf with SP using your RNG TA's. That is a situational decision, but both of those are higher HPS, for a shorter duration, than KI/SP with SP for KP TA consumption.

 

And finally, if you look at my post after the one you responded to, I do admit that burst in general is poorly designed, overly punishing, and clearly designed against in this game. I'm not saying that either of the other two ACs are the "New King of Burst" because BG/CM were nerfed. I'm saying that all 3 have options, and none of those options are good, but BG/CM certainly have no advantage in burst capability after Patch 1.2.

[Sogar]

 

In my previous post I explicitly say this about the Sage rotation:

 

 

That's the first of only two sentences on Sages. You were too busy trying to find ways to "win" that you stopped actually attempting to have a conversation. To take what I thought was obvious in that quote and make it more explicit, you can only cast Force Armor once per 21s, so don't try and cast it as the first of three spells in a rotation, recast it only when the debuff is gone. Don't keep spamming the Rejuvenate button....use it only when it is off of cooldown. Fill in any free GCD in your burst due to those cooldowns and debuffs with Benevolence.

 

And yes, obviously Force burn is an issue, but that is the trade-off of burst vs sustained. They are not without tools, they can cast Rejuv->Salvation->NSx4 while standing in the Salv to heal themselves.

 

I read that and it clearly is not wrong just not emphasazing the problem caused by CD enough for their burst phase. And yeah, I don't know a single sorc/sage who would want to use 4 NS in those fights, but that's clearly another problem. Shield -> Healing Trance -> Rejuv -> Benevolance until they get a CD back seems like the way to go. Rejuv and mainly Benevolance are the poor link in their rotation. Deliverance does not cut the job.

 

As for Operatives, it isn't about KI/Kinf vs AP/MP, it is about KI/Kinf vs KI/SP. Burst vs Sustained. You have a standard rotation which is sustainable indefinitely if you stay above 60 Energy. You have two options for Burst, replace SP with Kinf, or stay with KI/SP but don't worry about the 60 Energy level, just burn right through it.

 

The first option is not efficient, but it does have much higher HPS than KI/SP. You also have a tool with semi-fixed bonus regen, DS, so you have an option to Burst-Recover, if your burst HPS can cover the burst DPS incoming. So long as the burst DPS is followed by a lull, you can afford to switch to DS and KP refresh with SP for TA proc consumption. If there is no lull or your burst HPS doesn't match the burst DPS coming in...then you are in trouble if these phases happen more then every 2 minutes.

 

The second option isn't really burst, it is chain healing your sustainable rotation in an unsustainable manner. You didn't break out a new tool, your HPS simply couldn't math the DPS coming in and you had to heal out of your efficiency zone. This was the very design complaint that lead to Sc/Op saying they had no burst pre-1.2. This is now the exact situation that BG/CM are in, their "burst" isn't doing anything different except ignoring Ammo limits and hoping they aren't completely screwed after the run out of Ammo.

 

I really think you are overestimating DS in there but you are right on the choices an operative has, just that casting more than one Kinf is not an option because you are already screwed on the energy department and DS is not a tool you should spam (the HPS is lower than rapid shot after all and you still need to get those KP on a recovery phase). You described exactly why the operative have no burst healing. And as I said, the AP/MP combo is more efficient in every way to the KI/Kinf so how can you say that mercs don't have an edge there?

 

As for your dismissal of weaving SP into burst, you are a) clearly just being dismissive because winning is all that matters to you and b) being internally inconsistent since you seem to not consider Kinf worth using at all and appear to favor the second method of burst described above: unrestricted KI/SP spam. Again, if you set aside the need to win and look back at what was actually said, the point was that you can weave in SP to consume TA procs in lieu of a double KInf to strike some middle ground in burst. If you use KI/KInf with KInf for every TA proc from KP, you will burn energy far faster than if you use Ki/Kinf with SP using your RNG TA's. That is a situational decision, but both of those are higher HPS, for a shorter duration, than KI/SP with SP for KP TA consumption.

 

Actually it was a case of very poor reading comprehension on my part, for some reason I read KP instead of SP (that's why I compared it to Kolto shell). So it's completely my bad there, sorry for that part, you have better reasons to be pissed off than me ^^

As for for SP than, it is far more reasonable but it's not a rotation you can keep up. Your KP procs have a 6s CD and unless you keep your stacks (which should not be a priority on a burst phase because the healing is too diffused) you will get two proc max. On a side note, KI/Kinj/SP still costs 45 energy while regenerating 30 or probably less if you get under 60 after the Kinj cast.

 

And finally, if you look at my post after the one you responded to, I do admit that burst in general is poorly designed, overly punishing, and clearly designed against in this game. I'm not saying that either of the other two ACs are the "New King of Burst" because BG/CM were nerfed. I'm saying that all 3 have options, and none of those options are good, but BG/CM certainly have no advantage in burst capability after Patch 1.2.

 

All 3 have options but BG/CM do have the best ones. Both operatives and sorcs have to use really inefficient tools (sorcs really only have their bubble and their channel that are efficient). Sure they can get all out and decide they won't be healing for a while after those 9s but you really rarely are in this situation.

For PvE, the design is clearly for tanks to use CDs and not for healers to go in god mode now. BG/CM just seems to me to be the ones that can get out of their sustain line in the most effective way. That's the only thing I'm arguing about and the reason I think they have better burst healing.

[Arzoo]

Just so we're clear, you do realize that the reason it's so easy for CM/BG to do this "burst" healing is that there is no change whatsoever in the abilities they use; they just stop casting the free weak one.

[RuQu]

For PvE, the design is clearly for tanks to use CDs and not for healers to go in god mode now. BG/CM just seems to me to be the ones that can get out of their sustain line in the most effective way. That's the only thing I'm arguing about and the reason I think they have better burst healing.

 

So let's just boil it down to the one point you are making, quoted above.

 

What I am trying to say is that CM no longer have the option to get out of their sustained rotation in a meaningful way anymore.

 

Keep in mind that max sustained HPS for Commandos and Operatives were very nearly equal in 1.2. The weakness of Operatives was that they couldn't afford to deviate from their rotation, and Commandos could. In 1.2, the changes amount to an ~24% reduction in max Commando HPS from the same simmed rotation conditions. The Operative's max actually increased slightly due to not losing KP procced TA charges if it procced mid-KI cast.

 

The end result of this reduction is that the Commando must be actively healing nearly non-stop, when an Operative (and a pre-1.2 Commando) would have had free time to do utility, dps, or just assess the situation. Efficiency is absolutely essential, and they cannot afford to drop out of high regen at all. It is now even more punishing than an Op dropping below 60.

 

It doesn't matter how it might look like a Commando could do burst, they can't afford to.

[RuQu]

Let me use this analogy, cause I think we are still arguing past each other.

 

You have a steak knife, a butter knife, and a chef knife.

 

Which one is best for eating ice cream with?

 

That's the current state of burst healing in this game. Even if one class might be better at it after a substantial analysis, none of them actually have a proper set of tools for the task.

[rjavig]

i dont think your wrong a bit but for me this is what it seems to me

i might be a bit wrong on scoundrels/operatives

sage/sorc-

advantages-

huge aoe heals

force bubble for raid

raid healer

 

disadvantages-

no mobile heals

no burst healing (most are channeled)

force management

 

scoundrel/operative

 

advantages-

mobility

constant heals when upperhand is up

energy management

 

disadvantages-

burst heal

aoe

 

 

commandos/mercs

advantages-

mobility

burst heal

tank healer

 

disadvantages-

aoe heals

strict ammo managment

Edited May 10, 2012 by rjavig

[TempestasSilva]

The idea of different roles to me is fine.

Sorc/Sage is the AOE Raid healer

BG/CM is the burst Single Target/Tank healer

OM/SB is preventative HoT healer that kind of spans the gap between the other two.

 

There are 2 problems with this theory currently in the game.

1) BG/CM took a major nerf to their Burst and output.

2) The new content does not encourage a "tank healer" role

 

The result is that Sorc/Sage and OM/SB can effectively handle the "tank healing" duties and each excel at different fights based on the mechanics. There is no fights where Mercs excel.

[rjavig]

The idea of different roles to me is fine.

Sorc/Sage is the AOE Raid healer

BG/CM is the burst Single Target/Tank healer

OM/SB is preventative HoT healer that kind of spans the gap between the other two.

 

There are 2 problems with this theory currently in the game.

1) BG/CM took a major nerf to their Burst and output.

2) The new content does not encourage a "tank healer" role

 

The result is that Sorc/Sage and OM/SB can effectively handle the "tank healing" duties and each excel at different fights based on the mechanics. There is no fights where Mercs excel.

 

there your wrong again you obviously never ran a 16 man hard mode were spike damage is obvious and a ops/scound and sage/sorc burst isnt enough unless a two or 4 are healing it if a commando/emerc is not present during it` while as if a commando/merc did it one could easily handle a burst that would take 2 sorc/sage or 2 scound/ops and 2 to handle a 4 mans job because of our options once it gets to 20% armor buff from both and a 10% damae reduction from both with heals from prev med from both and trauma probe the tank would be having a lot of burst heal plus med probe. also this isnt opinions during 16 man hard mode i ran i healed the tank by myself during some normal spike damages and me and another commando healed during foreman crusher for 16 were if it was the sage or scound together they would have a much harder time and probably not be able ot heal after that frenzy do to the sheer amount of damage.

[TempestasSilva]

I have never run a 16-man hard mode. I ran a few 16 normal prior to 1.2, but not since. My guild has had attendance issues since 1.2 and we are only doing 8HM.

 

If you are telling me BH is needed in 16 hard to keep the tanks alive because 4xSorc or 4xOp or 2xSorc + 2xOp can't do it, that is great news. This is the first that I have heard of it. I guess I should start applying to guilds doing 16HM since I am indispensable.