How come I can ROFL stomp Ops/Scoundrels?

[Reldan]

And here is the link to the 1.2 warzone video: http://youtu.be/cqFWww9QZRU

 

I doubt most people here will bother to watch this, but I'll reiterate that this is exactly what the class does now.

 

I especially liked when you caught a Powertech by himself running for the +Expertise boost, grabbed the boost yourself and then unloaded on him. The result? Knocked him to 70%, he Carbonized you and then just walked away. This happens exactly 1 minute into the video. You then stood around waiting to break combat so you could restealth, which still hadn't happened at 01:30, and then got attacked by two guys, popped your defensive cooldowns and still died in six seconds flat.

[DarkHelsing]

I'm man enough to be honest about Operatives after 1.2. Since everything dies if you look at it the wrong way, Operatives are excelling. Operatives never had good defenses and always relied on overwhelming burst to accomplish anything. Even though our class still offers no utility whatsoever, the TTK is so low that you can kill most classes before they can react.. Now it's possible to solo healers without exploiting a glitch. If an Operative gets the opening on you, you shouldn't be able to beat him unless you're a Darkness Assassin. I melt Marauders like tissue paper on my Op. Is it satisfying to rely on killing people before they can react? Not really. But that's the only way a DPS Op can contribute at the moment because we have no other options. If TTK gets pushed back to pre 1.2 levels we would actually need utility buffs to be competitive.

 

Edit: I guess I should note that Deception Assassins (the squishy burst spec) are capable of the same burst except they have way more utility. It's all about burst right now in PvP.

 

Something isn't equal about the players you are fighting. Operatives and Scoundrels can't touch any of my toons I PvP on, except for my toons that are in 10-49 bracket they still have a hard time with Scoundrels. I can also say that I know the players of the Operatives, and prior to patch 1.2 I had no chance beating them unless I caught them at their most negative states, ie their stuff was on cd or they got pulled out of stealth and cc'd.

 

So my guess is the players you are still melting and not geared well, because this game has a HEAVY focus on gear.

[DarkHelsing]

Actually, you didnt lost the ability to stack whatever you like. Its just more expensive now. There are both +expertise/crit/surge and +expertise/power/surge enhacements (Field Tech boots/Field tech sniper rifle). There are even +expertise/+39 power mods. But, yeah, you will have to farm a lot to get all the optimal mods/enhacements. Default BM/WH set for operative is just really bad statwise. You wont get +75% crit multiplier with it nor 700+ power. So yeah, in order to be competitive you will need to get rid of all the +accuracy mods/enhacements. As for 2 pieces rakata bonus, well, its nice and all, but in BM gear+3 WH pieces, I have ~34% crit +16% for hs/bs = 50%.

 

You are correct, it can still be done, but my point is also the point you stated, in order to do it now it takes a MASSIVE amount of framing and prior to the patch it did not. So I was more or less meaning that anyone could do it, no only those hardcore at farming can do it.

[SteveMo]

OP's are still doing fine if played well.

 

Highest Skill Cap out of any class.

[Ich_Bin]

OP's are still doing fine if played well.

 

Highest Skill Cap out of any class.

 

So you're saying a well played DPS Operative is as good as: A well played Powertech, a well played Marauder, a well played Assassin, a well played Juggernaut and such?

I would have to respectfully disagree with you.

[Reldan]

OP's are still doing fine if played well.

 

Highest Skill Cap out of any class.

 

I'm calling BS on this. Concealment OP was and always has been the class most reliant on the RNG, as a string of crits on your main skills is key to winning any encounter. The talent tree revolves around making your crits do more than double damage, but provides no skills or procs that don't leave it all up to chance.

 

I hate to break it to you, but when the stars align and you nail that crit string and your target goes down, that wasn't skill. That's called luck. The typical experience is that you get a couple crits and don't do nearly enough damage to survive retaliation, you pop Cloaking Screen, and then futz about for a minute waiting for another target to come along and hope you get lucky this time. Or worse, you don't do much damage and they just ignore you and leave you stuck in combat for 20-30 seconds.

[SilentKyram]

What happened in Patch 1.2 that destroyed the Operatives and Scoundrels? Before when it used to be "oh crap an Operative, better be on serious guard"... you know, the way pvp should be, a challenge....

 

To beat down a fully BM geared Scoundrel, oh he's going after the med pack... I'll let him get in, he gets it heals back up to almost full, I /dance with him, he attacks me again, and I rofl stomp him.

 

Then I get jumped by an Operative in a different game, hmm, this is gonna suck I say to myself, except it didn't suck, it I didn't even have to burn any cool downs.

 

These are all the same players, same names that I've encountered dozens of times before... what did patch 1.2 do to screw that class over? (the healer side of the class are doing better though)

 

Did it ever occur to you that YOU were better then them? problem solved THANK YOU

[Bocherel]

Did it ever occur to you that YOU were better then them? problem solved THANK YOU

Did you even took the time to read what you quote?

[SajPl]

Well I must admit, there are no more good to decent operatives/scoundrels plaing scrapper or the imperial mirror, every single one went healing. Pre 1.2 it was a challenge, I got jumped by a scoundrel/operative, if i had all my cooldowns and timed them properly he would melt me down to 50% hp, then the fight would be pretty even, with me gaining the upper hand. Right now its just laughable and theres no reason to fear them, because their dps got nerfed to the ground.

[DarkHelsing]

Well I must admit, there are no more good to decent operatives/scoundrels plaing scrapper or the imperial mirror, every single one went healing. Pre 1.2 it was a challenge, I got jumped by a scoundrel/operative, if i had all my cooldowns and timed them properly he would melt me down to 50% hp, then the fight would be pretty even, with me gaining the upper hand. Right now its just laughable and theres no reason to fear them, because their dps got nerfed to the ground.

 

This seems to be the majority view... at least from those here and other places I've discussed this.

[DarkHelsing]

Did it ever occur to you that YOU were better then them? problem solved THANK YOU

 

Nope.

[DarkHelsing]

So this is what I am gathering from all this.....

 

 

Prior to Patch 1.2, Operatives were a well balanced class because they only had one thing they did well, and that one thing was the ability to destroy an enemy that got separated from the pack, or destroy an enemy 1v1 once every 2 minutes-ish. They got no knockbacks, no gap closers, no powerful ranged attacks, and poor ability to CC. Also this ability to destroy an opponent was easily mitigated by knockbacks, CCs, DoTs, and keeping the Scoundrel in combat; and the Operative was easily destroyed if pulled out of stealth early or caught in the middle of a group of people. All of which helped make this class pretty well balanced prior to Patch 1.2 as a whole.

 

However, that same one ability to destroy a single opponent in 1v1 also made the masses feel they were out of balance, and OP. Because 1v1 doesn't take into account their every 2 minute disadvantage - the class's ability to be easily mitigated by knockbacks, CC, and DoTs, wasn't enough in a 1v1 situation because they could vanish and pop their openers all over again within seconds, changing the outcome of the 1v1 to their favor and the other players death. So that meant the class was Over Powered because 1v1 doesn't care about 2 minute cooldowns. And players caught in a 1v1 with them, or caught with their pants down, don't want to take into account the bigger picture of everything that made the class balanced because they just got killed and getting killed is frustrating.

 

So Post Patch 1.2, they pulled the advantage Scoundrels had in 1v1 situations by removing their ability to use their 2 minute cooldown to their advantage by giving them longer cooldowns and worse energy resources. So now Operatives are still easily mitigated by all the same things that would ruin them before Patch 1.2, but now they also no longer have the advantage in a 1v1 that they had before, and that lack of 1v1 quickness means the class is now drawn out into longer fights which the class is not built for, rendering the class into a rather pathetic current state.

 

 

 

That's what I have gathered from everyone's opinions, posts, and responses.

 

It's very interesting. Several pages later and this is still the outcome that this thread is producing.

[Remdo]

The one post that has been unique in this thread, and so far the only post to bring this up, makes me want to ask you a question.

 

It was stated, and is true because I did the same thing, that prior Patch 1.2 there was a lot of mix matching with Enchantments and Mods in PvP gear. So former Scoundrels were able to stack things like Sruge, or Crit, or Power, based on their play style and builds. But due to Patch 1.2 and its vast amount of just plain stupid ideas, this ability to mix and match and customize was removed because Expertise was placed into every slot, which I can only assume that Bioware was high on stupid when making that choice. But I digress...

 

So my question to you, and others that have one of these two classes as your main, how big on an impact do you feel that the loss of that ability to mix and match has contributed to this overall decrease in class performance?

 

Been playing conealment operative since release. All I can say about the new expertise thing and 1.2 nerf is that, i can still kill sorcs in leveling gear (who can't), while going against equal geared players, my HS sometimes hits below 1k and BS 1.6ish.. In my team (conceal ops, merc healer, sage healer, mara) I went from being, the one who calls and executes targets, to the guy who only calls targets.

 

Since I feel like Im more of a team player and I like to contribute to the objective and be a useful team mate. I have now geared my Juggernaut to full BM gear and I must say, playing as Vengeance, I can contribute WAY more in ANY form of teambased scenario, Taunts, awesome peeling with pushback and slows and choke, and when my healers are in BIG trouble I sometimes pop tank stance and puts a Guard on them.

 

Huttball is a whole new warzone now. Yesterday I got lucky and got a PERFECT, clean, charge only as ballcarrier to the goal line. Intercede to friendly on the first bridge, force charge a guy on the left upper ramp, knock him away to further charge a guy coming up from the last mid ramp, then put him to sleep while I walk it in.

 

Maybe the operative class is bad, or maybe its just not for me. Maybe we all need to find the right class for our playstyle.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Remdo

[DarkHelsing]

*snip*

Maybe the operative class is bad, or maybe its just not for me. Maybe we all need to find the right class for our playstyle.

 

This is a good point. Some classes just do not fit some people's play style. Also as a good point, is how little utility the Scoundrel/Operative had when compared to all the other classes, not just one class, not a couple classes, but all of them.

 

Which bring me back to the conclusion I wrote, that the balancing factor for the class was the ability to melt someone every couple of minutes, or being able to melt players caught off guard. While it might be frustrating to get killed over and over, the frustration should end the second you watch the class attempt to do anything else useful and get destroyed. Unfortunately the players that like that sort of feeling of fear because it makes them better PvPers, are few and far between. So players that die repeatedly only know one thing, they died and didn't stand a chance, so that means bring out the nerfs.

Edited April 23, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Trauglodyte]

I can't comment on the lvl 50 full BM/WH Operative play style as I'm not there yet. So, please take this for what it is.

 

The few things that make me upset playing my Op are:

 

- why is stealth so transparent? if I'm built around it, should I be able to be able to depend on it to shield me from sight from others instead of having random people just glancing in my direction and seeing me? I have the +stealth bonus and I still get popped by non-BHs/Troopers.

 

- why am I so dependent upon positionals and why are my non-positionals on such a heart breakingly long cool down? shiv, at even 6s, is harsh when you've got that dead global with nothing to fill it but an auto attack - who actually uses their base attack when they're NOT low on resources?

 

- if I'm built on stealth, and I am, why is my lone dependable defensive tool so easy to negate?

 

I've play my Pyro Merc to vr56 and can deal with being visible all the time with crap defensive cool downs and the saving grace of heavy armor. But I've got the same crap defensive cool downs on my Op with twice the number of headaches, 1/3 less armor, and a 4m attack range. Stealth is a powerful ability and I love it when it works. But once you're out, it feels like I'm in a gun fight wearing a loin cloth...not fun but the breeze feels good.

[Ich_Bin]

DPS Operative is probably the squishiest class in this game right now. And they neither have the dps nor the utility to make up for it. Plain and simple.

They are not completely useless but they certainly are not en par with the other classes right now.

[CrunkShizzle]

to many people cried about them being overpowered because of there lack of knowledge of how rogue classes work

 

bioware didnt really put in any serious looking into to see if the class was actually overpowered and just did knee jerk nerfs.now there pretty bad,its kinda disapointing that they never really compensated them eather.like you know nerfing there burst,but giving them better mobility or make stealth actually be useful and not use it and still have mobs see me(although,i dont have any talent points in sneaky so that might be why i have this problem)and end up aggroing me when im just trying to sneak past them

Edited April 23, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[DarkHelsing]

to many people cried about them being overpowered because of there lack of knowledge of how rogue classes work

 

bioware didnt really put in any serious looking into to see if the class was actually overpowered and just did knee jerk nerfs.now there pretty bad,its kinda disapointing that they never really compensated them eather.like you know nerfing there burst,but giving them better mobility.nope,they just nerfed there burst and said "tough deal with it"

 

Nice post. I found out several 50 Operatives re-rolled Operatives for the 10-49 bracket because the class they like is still fun there.

[vermura]

What happened is a bug was fixed which meant you could do this:

Hidden Strike

restealth

Hidden Strike * 2 - it would hit twice

 

So in the blink of an eye, you could hidden strike 3 times.

 

This is how I have faired vs. operatives over the course of the game.

 

Pre-nerf - hard, but doable. Absolutely required popping force shroud to prevent the massive opening dmg.

After the first nerf, I felt I had the advantage.

After this latest nerf, there no longer a priority target. That is how non-threatening I find the dps ones to be.

 

However, the healing operatives aren't merely good. They are seriously broken over powered. What makes them so insane is they have none of the weaknesses the other 2 healers have.

i.e.

They do not run out of resources.

They have *3* instant healing abilities, so can move and heal.

If you get one to 30% or less, they can spam their instant direct heal every global cooldown w/o using any resources at all.

 

Come rated, if they are unchanged, operative healers will be the only healers any serious team would use.

 

What needs to change in my view is they need a nerf, specifically, kolto pack/surgical probe should still cost energy so you can't just spam it all day long. Maybe not a HUGE energy cost, but a cost.

 

The operative dps trees, however, man, they are bad. They need to rebuilt, class skills, talent trees, everything. The healing needs a bit of a tweak to bring it into line with the other 2 healers.

[Reldan]

bioware didnt really put in any serious looking into to see if the class was actually overpowered and just did knee jerk nerfs.now there pretty bad,its kinda disapointing that they never really compensated them eather.like you know nerfing there burst,but giving them better mobility.nope,they just nerfed there burst and said "tough deal with it"

 

Well, they did seriously look into how much money they were hemorrhaging from all those "teams of Operatives" that were so OP that they were killing so efficiently that they were knocking people out of the game. That's some hardcore OP.

 

You can go back to posts even in Pre-1.1 where you had Ops admitting that the burst was broken and stupid to the extent that it wasn't even that much fun - stack buffs, click 5 buttons and someone died simply because Bioware programmed it to be so, not because of anything clever or skillful you were doing as a player. We were begging for utility to at least make the class have some interesting features that would distinguish it, because we knew the broken stuff was going to get nerfed (although not this far) and we wanted to have some fun useful stuff we could add to the team.

 

It's funny that someone upthread mentioned the basic attack during CD periods. I remember getting into a discussion in my guild about rotations and they all thought it was odd that I had the basic attack on my toolbar. At the time I hadn't started any alts and didn't realize that no one else was using basic attacks at all.

[DarthSabreth]

As an IA OP healer i cant speak for the DPS side of things, however i feel that 1.2 has made me more competitive in pvp. the burst dps has been nerfed and the bug fixed so i would assume this is what the devs had envisioned op / scoundrel dps'ers to be in the first place.

[CrunkShizzle]

As an IA OP healer i cant speak for the DPS side of things, however i feel that 1.2 has made me more competitive in pvp. the burst dps has been nerfed and the bug fixed so i would assume this is what the devs had envisioned op / scoundrel dps'ers to be in the first place.

 

its funny they put tree's in called concealment,lethality,scrapper if they wanted operatives and scoundrels to be healers then

 

dont ya think.oh i guess dirty fighting to,cuz thats a scoundrel spec

Edited April 24, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[CrunkShizzle]

You can go back to posts even in Pre-1.1 where you had Ops admitting that the burst was broken and stupid to the extent that it wasn't even that much fun

 

and now look at what people say about operative/scoundrel dps

 

kinda funny they went from saying there broken and overpowered to there useless

Edited April 24, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[DarkHelsing]

What happened is a bug was fixed which meant you could do this:

Hidden Strike

restealth

Hidden Strike * 2 - it would hit twice

 

So in the blink of an eye, you could hidden strike 3 times.

 

There was no bug. That was false information passed out. Go through all the patch notes, this was never addressed, ever.

[vermura]

There was no bug. That was false information passed out. Go through all the patch notes, this was never addressed, ever.

 

But it was, hidden strike has a cool down so now you simply can't do it. You had to do it very fast for it to behave that way.