Worth it? Serrated Blades -> Combat Tactics -> Hamstring

[taugrimtaugrim]

So the question is, if you are going 31 points into Tactics, do you take that chain of 5 talents? You can actually bypass them, as there are some really good talents in the first 3 tiers of the Tactics tree.

 

I've felt since launch that the 15% bonus to the DoT portion of Gut was a bit underwhelming - the % should be higher given that it's one part of the damage for one ability.

 

Combat Tactics is a solid talent but the mileage you get depends on whether High Impact Bolt is tied to 15 sec cooldown, which is the case for 31-pt Tactics specs.

 

Hamstring provides a 6-sec moderate snare (30% instead of 50%). But it's tied to an ability that isn't designed to be spammed or you'll clip your DoT.

 

So do you take those 5 talents for your 31-pt spec, or do you load up on the first 3 tiers instead?

[TehMerc]

Really though it comes down to 10 seconds off Cryo (17%ish reduction), Power Armor (2% less damage taken), and Frontline Defense (2 secs off Riot, the only talent I miss not taking on the way up).

 

Serrated Blades is... Serrated Blades, it's not great but it opens up our slow and Combat Tactics procs fairly often now, especially if you have another target DoTed aside from your main target.

 

I do wish the slow was 9 or even 8 seconds long but I'll still take what I can get compared to Tactics before the changes. It wouldn't be so much of an issue if PG actually slowed by 70% at 5 stacks. I

[Saprezzan]

I initially specced into it, but now I'm starting to think the cost is too high.

 

Serrated Blades is awful and so is Combat Tactics (I wouldn't really call it solid - unless specced into Assault/Tactics hybrid). Spamming Gut every 6 seconds is a huge waste of ammunition; we can get around the snare with our combat speed buff.

 

So in short : it's not worth it.

 

Some ideas :

 

1) Hamstring shouldn't be tied to Combat Tactics.

2) Serrated Blades should instead reduce Gut's ammo cost to 1.

3) Hamstring's duration should be increased to at least 9 seconds.

[Cryowolf]

I am running the NORS build (No HiB for us) from the BH AP thread and loving it. I did take Gut and 1 point in Serrated Blades rather than 3/3 in Focused Impact since I don't use HiB at all. I put Gut on stealthers or use it as a finisher on low health targets (even if I have to spam it a couple times, I just enjoy slicing them to death, haha).

 

So for my current playstyle the only reason to take all those skills would be just to get Hamstring and that is not worth the points to me.

[Blurps]

Dropped it for the exact reasons mentioned in the original post. The mileage I get out of this chain would maybe be worth two points, no way I'll spend 5 on it. If Gut didn't suck so much for any other purpose than applying the snare I might reconsider. Edited April 18, 2012 by Blurps

[Keypek]

I've never liked gut and 30% snare is kind of meh. All though the alternative isn't really all that great either. And if you use ion cell instead of HEC there is no other way around it. So most specs I come up with I usually have gut included but I still don't like it. I'm not really a big fan of how the tactics tree is put together. Just seems... I don't know, clumsy.

[taugrimtaugrim]

since I don't use HiB at all

 

You really should have it as part of your rotation. The 15-sec base cooldown sucks, but it's a hard-hitting ability with long range. It's great for dropping targets.

 

EDIT: let me clarify. I understand that within 10m of a target for a 31-pt Tactics spec, there are abilities that are higher in priority. That said, HIB still has a place because it is one of the few 30m abilities we have, and it hits hard.

Edited April 18, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Philosomanic]

Dropped it for the exact reasons mentioned in the original post. The mileage I get out of this chain would maybe be worth two points, no way I'll spend 5 on it. If Gut didn't suck so much for any other purpose than applying the snare I might reconsider.

 

Umm...It's the only reliable way you can use HiB as Tactics (with HEC), and it makes HiB auto-crit? I don't know, that seems like a good reason to me.

[TheOpf]

You really should have it as part of your rotation. The 15-sec base cooldown sucks, but it's a hard-hitting ability with long range. It's great for dropping targets.

 

The HiB auto crit is overrated. Over on the BH forums we have gone to what we call the NORSE build, which focuses completely on using PFT/PG every 12 seconds. It's based on what we call the 12 second rule, and is completely applicable to your situations.

 

There are too main build HiB builds and Non-HiB builds. As long as you follow the 12 second rule, you will maximize your damage uptime and have sufficient burst in pvp. See the Bounty Hunter's AP guide in my signature, and it will give you a great idea as to how to utilize tactics.

[taugrimtaugrim]

The HiB auto crit is overrated. Over on the BH forums we have gone to what we call the NORSE build, which focuses completely on using PFT/PG every 12 seconds. It's based on what we call the 12 second rule, and is completely applicable to your situations.

 

There are too main build HiB builds and Non-HiB builds. As long as you follow the 12 second rule, you will maximize your damage uptime and have sufficient burst in pvp. See the Bounty Hunter's AP guide in my signature, and it will give you a great idea as to how to utilize tactics.

 

Understood. I argued the same point in the original post about the HIB crit talent - it's not worth taking due to the cost to get there.

 

What I was responding to was a poster saying that they never use HIB. In cases where the target is not close to 10m range, it's still a good tool to use.

Edited April 18, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[taugrimtaugrim]

See the Bounty Hunter's AP guide in my signature, and it will give you a great idea as to how to utilize tactics.

 

Excellent guide btw, will link to it.

[Blurps]

Umm...It's the only reliable way you can use HiB as Tactics (with HEC), and it makes HiB auto-crit? I don't know, that seems like a good reason to me.

 

For a full Tactics build HiB is useful mostly as a finisher if the target is out of your 10m range. There is one slight problem though, the target is out of your melee range as well and you can't apply Gut If you gutted your target before it will be snared and an Ion Pulse or two will usually do.

 

I'm not saying HiB is terrible, in fact I've argued over on the BH board that you shouldn't just drop it completely as well. For 31 Tactics it's a rather situational ability though and sinking 5 ( if you take the first tier talents in Tactics and Shield as well an unbelievable 10 !! ) points into it is just madness.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Blurps

[TheOpf]

For a full Tactics build HiB is useful mostly as a finisher if the target is out of your 10m range. There is one slight problem though, the target is out of your melee range as well and you can't apply Gut If you gutted your target before it will be snared and an Ion Pulse or two will usually do.

 

I'm not saying HiB is useless, in fact I've argued over on the BH board that you shouldn't just drop it completely as well. For 31 Tactics it's a rather situational ability though and sinking 5 ( if you take the first tier talents in Tactics and Shield as well an unbelievable 10 !! ) points into it is just madness.

 

Correct it's not useless it's just more of a proper timing ability in PVP situations. In PVE situations you can use it in your rotation as with the crit talent it's always up.

 

I am a big fan of the Norse (no HIB) build, but I still keep it on my bar for times when KB's or runners have gotten me away and I need a kill. The Norse (no HiB) builds are not about not using HiB at all, but about taking it out of your standard rotation. I use it more often than I use Gut/RB. I dislike Gut RB, but if I am fighting a Sin/Shadow or OP/Scoundrel I use the Dot to annoy there vanish.

[TheOpf]

Excellent guide btw, will link to it.

 

Thanks, it still needs a lot of fine tuning, and continues to be refined. I appreciate the link.

 

Haha, I just realized you are the Taugrim.

 

It's great to meet you btw. Your link to The Republic Show is broken at the moment.

Edited April 18, 2012 by TheOpf

[Cryowolf]

You really should have it as part of your rotation. The 15-sec base cooldown sucks, but it's a hard-hitting ability with long range. It's great for dropping targets.

 

I don't PvE and with only 1 point in Focused Impact HiB hits and crits for a little less than my Ion Pulse. The range is nice sure, but it's just one more keybind and CD to worry about and in the case of a runner or being rooted at range (with Harpoon and HtL on CD) I use Sticky Grenade or Full Auto.

 

I haven't missed it and I actually enjoy it more because it makes the spec feel completely different from assault for me. Plus I rarely use Gut so I would need someone else to put up the dot.

 

*edit* Not saying it's useless either. Just not a place for it in my playstyle right now. Maybe I'll try to fit it in at some point.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Cryowolf

[TheOpf]

I don't PvE and with only 1 point in Focused Impact HiB hits and crits for a little less than my Ion Pulse. The range is nice sure, but it's just one more keybind and CD to worry about and in the case of a runner or being rooted at range (with Harpoon and HtL on CD) I use Sticky Grenade or Full Auto.

 

I haven't missed it and I actually enjoy it more because it makes the spec feel completely different from assault for me. Plus I rarely use Gut so I would need someone else to put up the dot.

 

*edit* Not saying it's useless either. Just not a place for it in my playstyle right now. Maybe I'll try to fit it in at some point.

 

Cryo, You are correct fitting HiB into a rotation in pvp or PvE is not necessary especially if you are running the Norse build or some variation of it. It sounds like you are there. I would still leave it on your bar though. I haven't thought about using Unload/Full Auto as a kb alternative. I am going to add it to my bar and see how it works.

[TehMerc]

After trying out a non HiB rotation I found it's pretty close in damage to if you were using Gut and HiB. Did a couple of one and a half minute parses with just standard priorities rotation using Gut+ HiB and without, Gut parses came out on top typically but only around 5-7k out of 100,000 ish.

 

Just did rotational stuff, didn't use sticky past the 10m mark nor mortar since I don't really count on PG staying the way it is. Also done in full Battlemaster gear so there's no 4 set bonus in HiB's favor. Also used a warzone training dummy for the parses.

 

Typical damage ranges, non crit to crit between the 3 abilities:

 

Ion Pulse 1100-2300 range

Gut 2000-3000 depending on crits.

HiB 2450-2700 since you should only use it on crits.

 

Gut's pretty ammo efficient and reliable if you don't clip it. And I don't see how HiB is bad if you aren't firing before auto crits. I can see HiB being pretty bad against tank specs of course and Gut being clipped on particularly annoying classes, but from a strictly damage PoV it works out well. There is always the point of delaying fully stacked PG cannons though I suppose. Either way they both worked out pretty evenly, to each their own.