Help Bioware, My Trooper Is No Longer Fun To Play

[PhantomMalice]

What people need to understand about armor is that they are purely aesthetic, meaning, they are for looks only. This game is not like Aion, Final Fantasy or other Asian developed PvP games where armor types actually mean something. Take Guardian DPS for example, after their Vigilance talent ( 4 sec immune to knockback, cc, stun and all other controlling effect + 20% dmg reduction) wears off, their HP bar will drop faster than a falling meteor.

 

Same thing as commando, I leveled my commando using Combat Medic until I reached Belmorra and from then on I leveled using Gunnary. After reaching 50 I switched backed to CM to raid HM EV and KP. From my experience the amount of damage post nerf is noticeable compared to pre-1.2, however, it is not to the point where it will be considered unplayable. The difference is about 2-3% pre vs post 1.2 according to my own observation of my own HP bars. On lower levels this 2-3% will be more noticeable given the fact that gearing during leveling process will always be inferior compared to 50s, but again, I don't see the need to re-roll over it. Difference with Commandos now is that you have to be more knowledgeable about your class than before instead of herping and derping your way to 50.

 

Also knowing kill priority in this game is essential to your success, now and forever after. General rule is as follows:

 

1) Kill off all non-ranked mobs in the packs first (Those without decoration around their character frames)

2) Kill off Silver ranked mobs after all the trash mobs are dead

3) Finally all Elite and Champion mobs remaining

 

This rule holds true whether you are soloing or doing OPs, the reason behind this rule is that in SWTOR a damage is a damage. It doesn't matter if it is coming from the big bad boss or his minion that dies in 1 hit. If you kill off weaklings first you will only need to worry about 1 source of damage as oppose to 6. I also believe failing to understand the above rule is what causing a lot of Commandos on the forum QQ about their survivability because they think they can just focus fire the ranked mobs first while "tanking" the weak ones.

[Rhapsodyred]

I am not sure if they did something to PVE recently but I had alot more surviveability last night than previously.

 

I think part of that was having Dorne out healing me constantly, part of that was I was ccing the crap out of everythign I could, and I was fighting things a level or 2 below me. and of course I am higher level now.

 

Now I am still squishier than I was pre 1.2, but it seems I am taking less damage than I was before from PVE.

 

 

My problem now is the fact I have no interest in playing a controller (for those COH people) Basically my fights tend to center around doing everythign I can to debuff, hold, or stun the baddies long enough for me to kill them. Some people love that playstyle, I do not. My trooper used to not have to do this, now she pretty much has too.

 

Its as if Blizzard had come in and turned all paladins into warlocks. There is nothing wrong with a warlock, but if I had wanted to play one Id have rolled one...

 

 

and for the poster above, yes that is very true on the kill priority, but its that way in other games as well I have played, so I learned this early on in this game. I will grant you others may not know this, but I do not think it was my issue right after 1.2.

 

Perhaps the problem is that I chose a class based on the playstyle pre 1.2 where it was not working the way it was intended, and now it is, but if thats the case then all I can say is bleah.

[Arakhian]

I was fairly worried when reading the patch notes for 1.2 about the changes to Commandos, in particular the Combat Medic changes. But when trying in game I must say that I think Bioware pretty much hit the right spot with this patch.

 

I was previously able to kill champion mobs by myself (hybrid gunnery/medic with Elara as companion) at only 1-2 lvls above, and solo yellow 2-man heroic missions, but this is now (as it should be) impossible. Comparing low-lvl play with the Commando and my Sentinel before patch was a laugh, the Sentinel was soo much harder to play it almost made me delete it.

 

I also found the healing changes to be quite alright to be honest (at least for normal FP's, I have no idea about how it plays in hard modes and operations), my regular flashpoint group is 3 man strong and I have been healing all FP's up to Directive 7 (all but Directive 7 before patch). The healing before patch 1.2 was too easy in my opinion, I could spend 80% of the time as dps, and perhaps 50% on harder bosses. In Directive 7 I really felt challenged for the first time in a flashpoint, it was a lot more fun.

 

I think a lot of Trooper players had become used to the pre-patch challenge levels, you could quite easily play through even the harder content (while leveling) without really worrying about tanking and healing, crowd control, and target priorities. If you have problems playing your trooper after patch I think you should take it as an opportunity to learn and develop your play. I'm not trying to be condescending or arrogant here, I genuinely believe that the game is more fun when challenging, and when you have to adapt your playstyle to the situation at hand.

 

As to the problems experienced by the OP, I think it sounds as though you have just played through content without really caring about dedicated tanking and healing roles. This is fine for most normal missions, but will be very hard (post 1.2) in heroics and flashpoints. Try to gear up your and your wifes companions so that you have a tank and a healer (I think you both played dps classes right?). For the tank companion, make sure that it has the correct abilities activated. Also, companion tanks can be quite squishy so you may want to help heal it at times (even as a Gunnery commando you do have healing abilities). For the healing companion, make sure to turn off all dps abilities so that it only uses healing abilities (if the companion has a cc ability you may want to leave that on).

 

Some more mixed advice:

- Weak, then strong, then elite, then champions. This is the optimum kill order, as previously mentioned by others.

- Use crowd control on the strongest enemy (champions are usually immune though)

- Use Concussion charge on cooldown, usually on the strongest mob. It allows some extra time to heal up the tank companion.

- Weave hammer shot into your ability chain. Try to never drop below 70-80% ammo limit, unless you have Recharge up or know that you will die unless you go below that mark.

 

Anyway, I don't think you should give up just yet. It will take some time getting used to the added difficulty, but once you have adapted I really think you will have more fun than before.

[Landaren]

You really didn't get nerfed very hard, mostly you were rebalanced to where you shouldn't be spamming grav round like you were before. If you are still spamming grav round, thats probably why you are struggling.

 

If they didnt want us spaming Grav rounds they should reduce the ammo cost/cool downs of other abilities, not nerf the balls off of the one move that made the class effective at DPS.

[schwiz]

try assault

[MatticusRex]

I really haven't noticed any of the survivability problems that you guys are facing. Maybe you should try running with Forex or Tanno, if you're not already. They're tough nuts to crack if you keep their gear up to date. As for things not dying fast enough, I'd say you're probably doing it wrong. Between our long-term CC, Sticky, FA, Cryo and Plasma Grenade, we have plenty of tools for controlling anything that doesn't have boss immunity.

 

Use a tank, use your CC, and carry on.

[Sotaudi]

If they didnt want us spaming Grav rounds they should reduce the ammo cost/cool downs of other abilities, not nerf the balls off of the one move that made the class effective at DPS.

 

This mindset is the problem. Gunnery DPS has never been about Grav Round. Gunnery DPS is about maximizing Full Auto, High Impact Bolt, and Demo Round with the primary emphasis on Full Auto. The problem is that it takes 21 points in Gunnery (level 30) to get High Impact Bolt fully spec'd, 28 points (level 37) to get Full Auto fully spec'd, and 31 points (level 40) to get Demo Round. Since Grav Round is obtainable at level 20 (11 points), this leaves a lot of levels to form bad habits and get the wrong idea about Grav Round's purpose.

 

Either way, Full Auto gets a total of 33% more damage plus 30% more crit damage from points invested in Gunnery, and when used when Curtain of Fire procs, it gets another 25% damage on top of that. It is also the most cost efficient skill we have. High Impact Bolt gets a 60% damage boost from a full stack of Charged Barrel, and its cost is reduced to 1 with a tier 2 skill in Gunnery, and the 4 piece set bonus from raid gear (even just 4 Tionese pieces) reduces the cost one more, making it free without even taking into account ammo regen.

 

However, Full Auto was buffed by having Curtain of Fire proc more, allowin Full Auto to be used more frequently, and Demo Round was, in fact, buffed by 10% in this patch. So two of the "other abilities" were buffed and the third did not really need a buff.

 

When you add to the above the fact that they increased the cost of ammo and reduced the damage, it is quite clear that Grav Round is not supposed to be spammed. It is, in fact, the ability that is supposed to be the filler, and even then, it is not intended to be used over and over again without consequence.

 

That is, because Charged Bolts does more damage than Hammer Shot, people get used to the idea early on that you use Charged Bolts throwing in other skill as you can till you run out of ammo then use Hammer Shot till you get enough ammo to use Charged Bolts again. When Grav Round comes around, people stop using Charged Bolts and start using Grav Round. Because it takes so long to fully spec the higher skills (Full Auto, High Impact Bolt, and Demo Round), people get the idea that Gunnery is about spamming Grav Round and throwing in the longer cooldown skills occasionally and only using Hammer Shot if they have to. This misconception is only fortified when you look at all the things Grav Round adds (buffs and debuffs) and the fact that they all stack.

 

However, this notion that Grav Round is supposed to be spammed because of everything it does is false. After all, it is not like you have to cast 5 Grav Rounds to get the Gravity Vortex debuff fully staked, then cast 5 more Grav Rounds to get a full stack of Charged Barrier, then another 5 times to get a full stack of Charged Barrel, then more times to get a Curtain of Fire proc. All of those things are happening at once.

 

In reality, by the time you get Gravity Surge, it only takes 3 Grav Rounds to get a full stack of 5 debuffs on the target. Those 3 shots also apply Charged Barrier and Charged Barrel buffs to you. That means it only takes 2 more Grav Rounds to fully buff you, and each of those also refreshes the target's debuff, and every one of those shots will have a chance to proc Curtain of Fire. With the increased proc rate, you are fairly likely get two occurrences of the proc, thus, two Full Autos, between those 5 shots.

 

Additionally, while the Charged Barrel buff will be consumed on use, the Charged Barrier and Gravity Vortex's don't get consumed. Similarly, when a target dies, you lose the Gravity Vortex debuff on that target, but the Charged Barrier and Charged Barrel buffs are on you so you don't lose them. Thus, it only takes an occasional Grav Round at that point to refresh them, and you only have to reapply the Gravity Vortex stack when you move to a new target (3 shots). Additionally, while High Impact Bolt will consume the Charged Barrel stack, it takes 15 seconds, or 10 global cooldowns, for High Impact Bolt to become usable again, giving you that long to restack the Charged Barrel buffs to full. All this means that it is a fallacy to say that Grav Round is "meant to be spammed" because of the number of things it does. After the initial application of Gravity Vortex, Grav Round becomes a filler between Full Auto, Demo Round, and High Impact Bolts.

 

Even then, people need to get over this notion that because Grav Round does more damage, Hammer Shot is no longer a valid part of your rotation. A proper Gunnery rotation is built around maximizing ammo regen, not firing as many Grav Rounds as you can before you run out of ammo. In other words, you don't fire everything you have until you run out of ammo, then start using Hammer Shots because you have no choice. You use Hammer Shot to keep your ammo above 8 or get it back to eight if you dip below that so that you can keep up your DPS. That means you would not be spamming Grav Round even if you only had Grav Round and Hammer Shot.

 

Gunnery is built around using Full Auto as much as possible by proc'ing Curtain of Fire, using Demo Round every chance you get once you have a full Gravity Vortex stack, and High Impact Bolt every cooldown, by which time you should have a full stack of Charged Barrel. The Charged Barrier buff will be fully stacked on you and stay on you during the normal use of Grav Round. Grav Round is an essential part of the rotation, but it was never meant to be spammed.

[Brandoe]

try assault

 

This. Leveled with it and still hitting top marks in WZ's after the patch.

 

Now in terms of your dying a lot Assault could help since it gives you mobility when fighting. You can engage and disengage if need be.

[FlynnFlon]

TBH I wasn't happy before patch with the survivability of my mando compared to likes of my Shadow. But recently with this event on Tat ive not found any problems. I only have a lvl 31 'mando but last night I was doing the 12 pieces of wreckage mission and had a few tricky moments with groups and adds, like 1x gold 2x silvers.

 

I didnt come close to dieing apart from when I ran into the Imp camp at Mos Anek lol.

 

Not saying of course in anyway that the nerf / balance wasnt sore to us all but to say the clas is unplayable is a litle bit drama queenish tbh.

 

Just readjust gameplay a little and try hang in there for the fix which will happen but not with these skills...imho nerfed skills usually dont get reversed just other skills get buffed to compensate without admitting a problem.

[SeloDaoC]

Gunnery is built around using Full Auto as much as possible by proc'ing Curtain of Fire, using Demo Round every chance you get once you have a full Gravity Vortex stack, and High Impact Bolt every cooldown, by which time you should have a full stack of Charged Barrel. The Charged Barrier buff will be fully stacked on you and stay on you during the normal use of Grav Round. Grav Round is an essential part of the rotation, but it was never meant to be spammed.

 

Grav round is the the most used skill in the rotation, nothing has changed, you use full auto maybe 10% more. you cant use hib and demo every time its up becouse you run out of ammo way to fast. they should make demo traited cost free.

[Star-ranger]

Thanks for all the "Advice" guys, but it doesn't resolve the main issue.

 

My original point in the post is, again, as follows:

I'm not having FUN playing my trooper like I was before, and my wife is not having FUN playing her trooper.

 

If my wife is not enjoying playing her trooper, she's not going to play it. If I'm not enjoying my trooper I won't be playing it. That also means that the corresponding spouse is not going to be playing their other character. So that's 4 characters taken out of our play rotation. She's not playing her sage (which is the same level as my commando)... And I'm not playing my Gunslinger (which is the same level as her commando). { If you don't have a wife you play with, you will probably not understand. Simply put: Happy Wife...Happy Life. The inverse is also true.}

 

We've both moved back to playing City of Heroes for a while because we're having fun playing there not here.

 

Just as a matter of principle and game design: Playing one's character should be fun, not a chore. I shouldn't have to make my character viable by going to extaordinary means. I should be able to take on sevaral same level MOBs without dieing excessivly quickly, and even take on a couple of more challenging MOBs without ending up nearly dead each time.

 

COH is great for making you feel like a Hero, right now SWTOR ... not so much.

 

I appreciate that some people like the bragging rights that go with creating optimum builds and making wimpy classes perform at acceptable levels with special care and equipping...but that's not where we're at. We want to come home from work and jump on our characters and have fun. If that's not happening, this game is not designed for us, casual players, it's designed for eliteists.

 

As far as going back and rerolling another character, no thank you. Already done that a couple of times. I got rid of my Vanguard because I didn't care for the style of play.

 

At this point I'm wavering between canceling my subscription and waiting to see if they do anything about this. There are, after all, lots other games to try. Personally I'm not all that impressed with this game's mechanics.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Star-ranger

[MatticusRex]

Thanks for all the "Advice" guys, but it doesn't resolve the main issue.

 

My original point in the post is, again, as follows:

I'm not having FUN playing my trooper like I was before, and my wife is not having FUN playing her trooper.

 

If my wife is not enjoying playing her trooper, she's not going to play it. If I'm not enjoying my trooper I won't be playing it. That also means that the corresponding spouse is not going to be playing their other character. So that's 4 characters taken out of our play rotation. She's not playing her sage (which is the same level as my commando)... And I'm not playing my Gunslinger (which is the same level as her commando). { If you don't have a wife you play with, you will probably not understand. Simply put: Happy Wife...Happy Life. The inverse is also true.}

 

We've both moved back to playing City of Heroes for a while because we're having fun playing there not here.

 

Just as a matter of principle and game design: Playing one's character should be fun, not a chore. I shouldn't have to make my character viable by going to extaordinary means. I should be able to take on sevaral same level MOBs without dieing excessivly quickly, and even take on a couple of more challenging MOBs without ending up nearly dead each time.

 

COH is great for making you feel like a Hero, right now SWTOR ... not so much.

 

I appreciate that some people like the bragging rights that go with creating optimum builds and making wimpy classes perform at acceptable levels with special care and equipping...but that's not where we're at. We want to come home from work and jump on our characters and have fun. If that's not happening, this game is not designed for us, casual players, it's designed for eliteists.

 

As far as going back and rerolling another character, no thank you. Already done that a couple of times. I got rid of my Vanguard because I didn't care for the style of play.

 

At this point I'm wavering between canceling my subscription and waiting to see if they do anything about this. There are, after all, lots other games to try. Personally I'm not all that impressed with this game's mechanics.

 

So let me get this straight: you're thinking about unsubbing because you're suddenly unable to steamroll things like you used to? Even though you're running with your wife who has a commando of the same-ish level? You're honestly saying that you're having trouble surviving same-level questing with TWO people in a group at all times.

 

Really? Really? Not to sound rude, but what exactly are you doing? Are you running with no companions out? Are you running in the gear you got from Ord Mantell? Are you literally doing nothing other than spamming Grav Round? I don't know what the two of you are doing, but clearly you're doing it wrong. And no, I'm not saying that to be condescending, or to flippantly dismiss you. I'm saying it as a point of fact and in an effort to help you be a better player.

 

If you're in the low 30s, then one or both of you should have Forex. That right there should solve most of your incoming damage problems, as he's a very effective tank at that level with proper gear. If neither of you have Forex yet, you should at least have Dorne. Again, Dorne with decent gear can do wonders, especially with two commandos around to throw off-heals. You both definitely have Jorgan, and again, if he has decent gear he will hit like an absolute truck. Nothing pre-Forex should be challenging for two commandos. Nothing. Likewise, nothing post-Forex should be a challenge either.

 

To give you some perspective, my commando is 37 on Quesh with Forex (my main is a 50 DPS Vanguard). My commando is full gunnery spec, and I don't normally run with anyone else. Just yesterday I was doing part of the world quest on Quesh and attacked a same-level elite Sith mob. While repositioning myself, I accidentally face-pulled a group of four same-level normals. That pull should have been enough to get me killed, but I pulled through. Heck, it would have gone even easier if I'd remembered to CC the elite when the normals showed up.

 

TL;DR: Nothing in your level range should be able to touch two commandos with their companions out. Look at what you're doing and make adjustments. It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

[Star-ranger]

So let me get this straight: you're thinking about unsubbing because you're suddenly unable to steamroll things like you used to? Even though you're running with your wife who has a commando of the same-ish level? You're honestly saying that you're having trouble surviving same-level questing with TWO people in a group at all times.

 

Really? Really? Not to sound rude, but what exactly are you doing? Are you running with no companions out? Are you running in the gear you got from Ord Mantell? Are you literally doing nothing other than spamming Grav Round? I don't know what the two of you are doing, but clearly you're doing it wrong. And no, I'm not saying that to be condescending, or to flippantly dismiss you. I'm saying it as a point of fact and in an effort to help you be a better player.

 

If you're in the low 30s, then one or both of you should have Forex. That right there should solve most of your incoming damage problems, as he's a very effective tank at that level with proper gear. If neither of you have Forex yet, you should at least have Dorne. Again, Dorne with decent gear can do wonders, especially with two commandos around to throw off-heals. You both definitely have Jorgan, and again, if he has decent gear he will hit like an absolute truck. Nothing pre-Forex should be challenging for two commandos. Nothing. Likewise, nothing post-Forex should be a challenge either.

 

To give you some perspective, my commando is 37 on Quesh with Forex (my main is a 50 DPS Vanguard). My commando is full gunnery spec, and I don't normally run with anyone else. Just yesterday I was doing part of the world quest on Quesh and attacked a same-level elite Sith mob. While repositioning myself, I accidentally face-pulled a group of four same-level normals. That pull should have been enough to get me killed, but I pulled through. Heck, it would have gone even easier if I'd remembered to CC the elite when the normals showed up.

 

TL;DR: Nothing in your level range should be able to touch two commandos with their companions out. Look at what you're doing and make adjustments. It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

 

Try reading.

 

We're not running two commandos at the same time. We're running sets of a commando and something else. Now my wife's commando dies every combat about half way through each fight on a Hero+2 while my gunslinger survives and that's on MOBs 5 levels lower. She really hates that. If she's dying she's not happy.She's in tears. So she doesn't want to play her commando. Therefore I don't get to play my Gunslinger. End of story for that pair. The other pair, I play a commando, primarily gun spec. I have Elara out , my wife has Quyzen out . My wife likes to kill (not heal) with her Sage (not that her Sage can keep up healing post 1.2 anyway). Some people just are not healers. So you don't ask them to. Anyway my lvl 35 commando kills slow and dies really fast. Elara can't keep up, for some reason I'm getting a ton more agro, and my armor doesn't stop anything it seems now. I don't consider it OK to consistantly die in the first few moments of the battle. That's not fun.

 

Thank you for your advice, but since you're not in the same situation as I am it's somewhat presumptuous on your part to offer advice or cirtique my play. Unfortunately nothing you said was in anyway helpful.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Star-ranger

[Raeln]

Try reading.

 

We're not running two commandos at the same time. We're running sets of a commando and something else. Now my wife's commando dies every combat about half way through each fight on a Hero+2 while my gunslinger survives and that's on MOBs 5 levels lower. She really hates that. If she's dying she's not happy.She's in tears. So she doesn't want to play her commando. Therefore I don't get to play my Gunslinger. End of story for that pair. The other pair, I play a commando, primarily gun spec. I have Elara out , my wife has Quyzen out . My wife likes to kill (not heal) with her Sage (not that her Sage can keep up healing post 1.2 anyway). Some people just are not healers. So you don't ask them to. Anyway my lvl 35 commando kills slow and dies really fast. Elara can't keep up, for some reason I'm getting a ton more agro, and my armor doesn't stop anything it seems now. I don't consider it OK to consistantly die in the first few moments of the battle. That's not fun.

 

Thank you for your advice, but since you're not in the same situation as I am it's somewhat presumptuous on your part to offer advice or cirtique my play. Unfortunately nothing you said was in anyway helpful.

 

If she's dying every single pull in a heroic 2, then either one or both of you are doing something wrong or you guys need to update gear on yourselves and your companions. Also, examine the mobs you are fighting to see if there they are casting big bad stuff that needs interrupted.

 

I don't mean that to sound rude or mean at all - but something isn't right. My brother is a Vanguard with just daily mods, I'm a gunnery Commando and we often duo heroic 4s. They take patience but we do it. We typically both run with our healer companions.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Raeln

[azhrione]

Try reading.

 

We're not running two commandos at the same time. We're running sets of a commando and something else. Now my wife's commando dies every combat about half way through each fight on a Hero+2 while my gunslinger survives and that's on MOBs 5 levels lower. She really hates that. If she's dying she's not happy.She's in tears. So she doesn't want to play her commando. Therefore I don't get to play my Gunslinger. End of story for that pair. The other pair, I play a commando, primarily gun spec. I have Elara out , my wife has Quyzen out . My wife likes to kill (not heal) with her Sage (not that her Sage can keep up healing post 1.2 anyway). Some people just are not healers. So you don't ask them to. Anyway my lvl 35 commando kills slow and dies really fast. Elara can't keep up, for some reason I'm getting a ton more agro, and my armor doesn't stop anything it seems now. I don't consider it OK to consistantly die in the first few moments of the battle. That's not fun.

 

Wait what? This is pretty much impossible, I find it really hard to believe that a -5 Heroic 2 is stomping you. Are you not using CC, do you have Elara's healing abilities turned off? Does Qyzen have his taunt turned off? Did you not train your advanced class skills?

 

Seriously think about this, each class is tuned and is capable of killing a single even level elite with the help of any companion. A Heroic 2 will typically have one elite and one strong, or one elite and two weaks, at the 40+ range you may get one or two elites accompanied by one or two strongs. Sage/Commando, you have two long duration CCs at this level, even if you just spam Hammer Shot and Telekinetic Throw it is still trivial if you CC.

 

As an example, I was soloing a Heroic 2, Open Communications, on Belsavis last night and had taken care of the four weaks and just the single elite was left. Suddenly my kid started screaming in the other room and I jumped up in the middle of the fight. I came back a few minutes later and lo and behold Elara with no interaction from me kept me up the entire time with the elite beating on me.

 

I'm sorry you are not having fun with the class, but the fault is not in the mechanics or issues with survival. The weakness you are describing points to a different problem, and while I don't want to be mean it looks like the problem here is player based.

[MatticusRex]

Wait what? This is pretty much impossible, I find it really hard to believe that a -5 Heroic 2 is stomping you. Are you not using CC, do you have Elara's healing abilities turned off? Does Qyzen have his taunt turned off? Did you not train your advanced class skills?

 

Seriously think about this, each class is tuned and is capable of killing a single even level elite with the help of any companion. A Heroic 2 will typically have one elite and one strong, or one elite and two weaks, at the 40+ range you may get one or two elites accompanied by one or two strongs. Sage/Commando, you have two long duration CCs at this level, even if you just spam Hammer Shot and Telekinetic Throw it is still trivial if you CC.

 

As an example, I was soloing a Heroic 2, Open Communications, on Belsavis last night and had taken care of the four weaks and just the single elite was left. Suddenly my kid started screaming in the other room and I jumped up in the middle of the fight. I came back a few minutes later and lo and behold Elara with no interaction from me kept me up the entire time with the elite beating on me.

 

I'm sorry you are not having fun with the class, but the fault is not in the mechanics or issues with survival. The weakness you are describing points to a different problem, and while I don't want to be mean it looks like the problem here is player based.

 

^This. Seriously, there is NO reason that you shouldn't be able to do Heroic 2's with a Commando and a Gunslinger, ESPECIALLY if you're 5 levels over the quest level. This is even more true for Sage and Commando. Even if you're somehow not using CC or you have your tank in his DPS stance, unless you're using unarmed combat you should be doing more than enough damage to plow right through those mobs.

 

Also, how exactly are you and/or your wife pulling threat if you have your tank companion out? Unless you significantly outgear your companion, it's pretty dang hard to pull threat off them if you're attacking their target. Qyzen, Corso, Bowdaar, Forex--all of them have rock-solid single-target threat and enough AOE threat that they won't lose a mob to healing aggro. Are you actively attacking things that they don't have aggro on? Are you not using any of the multiple stuns or slows that you have for weak and normals? Is your cat jumping on your keyboard every time you pull?

 

OK, that last one was a joke, but seriously, you shouldn't be having the trouble you're describing and I can't for the life of me figure out how you are.

[Star-ranger]

If she's dying every single pull in a heroic 2, then either one or both of you are doing something wrong or you guys need to update gear on yourselves and your companions. Also, examine the mobs you are fighting to see if there they are casting big bad stuff that needs interrupted.

 

I don't mean that to sound rude or mean at all - but something isn't right. My brother is a Vanguard with just daily mods, I'm a gunnery Commando and we often duo heroic 4s. They take patience but we do it. We typically both run with our healer companions.

We used to duo Heroic 4's, it was a near thing most of the time, but we still got through many of them. Some like the Sand people chieftan in the cave on Tatooine we never did finish. However, since 1.2 we just die quickly where we would have survived before. What's wrong is what the developers did to our class. It's broken now. Obviously not everybody sees it that way, but there's a lot of people who feel the same way. You don't, good for you, go play the game. You can't fix the problem for us especially since you don't see it. It's sort of like changing candy half way through the movie from Sweet Tarts to Licorice. If you like Licorice you probably won't care. If you think Licorice tastes bad you'll mind.

 

On a design philosophy level: character classes should not be hard to figure out. Nor should the average casual player need a special strategy guide to figure out how to play them. If they do, it's bad design. If playing a class requires special number crunching skills on the part of players to succeed, or you need elite equipment to succeed, or special tactics that few are going to figure out... it's not casual player friendly. Games that are not casual player friendly eventually turn into nitch games. The casual players go away and all that's left are the hardcore gamers. Companies can drive off players with bad decisions like over correcting for perceived balance problems. It's their game. They can do what they want.

 

But if I'm not having fun, I can take my money someplace else thank you. Since the adjustments to the trooper class in 1.2, I've found the game less enjoyable. Options are of course 1 try to make the best of it. and keep playing those characters that are now gimped (and not have fun)...2 Play other characters (as more classes get nerfed there are less and less viable options--and frankly I'm tired of restarting characters)... or 3 Leave and play some other game.

 

I like Star Wars. I like the story arcs, but I'm not sold on the mechanics. I don't think much of them. Oh well.

[Star-ranger]

^This. Seriously, there is NO reason that you shouldn't be able to do Heroic 2's with a Commando and a Gunslinger, ESPECIALLY if you're 5 levels over the quest level. This is even more true for Sage and Commando. Even if you're somehow not using CC or you have your tank in his DPS stance, unless you're using unarmed combat you should be doing more than enough damage to plow right through those mobs.

 

Also, how exactly are you and/or your wife pulling threat if you have your tank companion out? Unless you significantly outgear your companion, it's pretty dang hard to pull threat off them if you're attacking their target. Qyzen, Corso, Bowdaar, Forex--all of them have rock-solid single-target threat and enough AOE threat that they won't lose a mob to healing aggro. Are you actively attacking things that they don't have aggro on? Are you not using any of the multiple stuns or slows that you have for weak and normals? Is your cat jumping on your keyboard every time you pull?

 

 

OK, that last one was a joke, but seriously, you shouldn't be having the trouble you're describing and I can't for the life of me figure out how you are.

 

Actually my cat does jump on my keyboard from time to time--and when they do it is the worst possible time.

 

Frankly coming from COH I don't think much of the CC here, if you can even really call it that.

 

Yes we send in the clowns... er tanking companions... as necessary. Corso often causes more trouble than he's worth, and of course they got rid of the harpoon. My wife's commando and my gunslinger were both in the 20's on Taris. so there isn't the selection of companions you mention. She only has Jorgan, he's OK but like I said they both die fast. CC doesn't come up fast enough or last long enough IMO.

 

Still it's the armor issue. Whatever we're fighting just tears right through the heavy armor. I would assume that's why my Gunslinger is left standing in his medium armor after the fight and everybody in heavy armor is dead. It is puzzling.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Star-ranger

[MatticusRex]

Actually my cat does jump on my keyboard from time to time--and when they do it is the worst possible time.

 

Frankly coming from COH I don't think much of the CC here, if you can even really call it that.

 

Yes we send in the clowns... er tanking companions... as necessary. Corso often causes more trouble than he's worth, and of course they got rid of the harpoon. My wife's commando and my gunslinger were both in the 20's on Taris. so there isn't the selection of companions you mention. She only has Jorgan, he's OK but like I said they both die fast. CC doesn't come up fast enough or last long enough IMO.

 

Still it's the armor issue. Whatever we're fighting just tears right through the heavy armor. I would assume that's why my Gunslinger is left standing in his medium armor after the fight and everybody in heavy armor is dead. It is puzzling.

 

If you're in your 20s and haven't finished Taris, you need to do that to get her Dorne. At that point you're over-leveled for your story quests, and those aren't particularly challenging--especially not in a group. The Needles fight can get hairy, but only because it's an elite, a strong, and I think a weak in the same pull. Good thing Needles is made of paper. If you're really having trouble, do space missions and/or Warzones until she hits 22 and gets Concussive Round. You'll then have a 1 minute CC that works on anything in addition to your 1 minute droid CC. If Corso is still dying too quickly by then, then make sure his gear is up to date; that set you get when you arrive on the fleet won't last you all through Taris.

 

I'm not sure what I can tell you about your Commando/Sage pair, because you basically have no excuse. I'm not saying that to be mean, but it's a fact. If you're on Tatooine, then you're high enough for you to have Forex if Qyzen is dying too fast for some reason. You both have 1 min CC abilities--and hers can hit up to three normal targets if she went Balance. If you both went damage, you have enough points in your trees to get your 11 pt talents, and your damage is increasing nicely. Nothing outside elites and champions should be living long enough to be a problem if you are focusing on the same target, and if things do go south you still have those long-term CCs (plus all the shorter-duration stuns and knockbacks you have). Heroic 2s should be trivial, and many Heroic 4s should be doable. If not, well, they're not called Heroic 4s for nothing.

 

Of course, the thing about Heroic missions is that they are completely optional. You can get through a planet's class and world stories without ever doing one and still get enough commendations to afford a few upgrades at the end. If you're really having that much trouble doing Heroics (and again, you shouldn't be) then maybe you should just skip them. Focus on doing your class stories and normal quests and you should be fine.

 

Because if you can't get through the normal packs found while doing regular quests with a group of two plus companions...you have serious problems, and they aren't the game's fault.

[Star-ranger]

If you're in your 20s and haven't finished Taris, you need to do that to get her Dorne. At that point you're over-leveled for your story quests, and those aren't particularly challenging--especially not in a group. The Needles fight can get hairy, but only because it's an elite, a strong, and I think a weak in the same pull. Good thing Needles is made of paper. If you're really having trouble, do space missions and/or Warzones until she hits 22 and gets Concussive Round. You'll then have a 1 minute CC that works on anything in addition to your 1 minute droid CC. If Corso is still dying too quickly by then, then make sure his gear is up to date; that set you get when you arrive on the fleet won't last you all through Taris.

 

I'm not sure what I can tell you about your Commando/Sage pair, because you basically have no excuse. I'm not saying that to be mean, but it's a fact. If you're on Tatooine, then you're high enough for you to have Forex if Qyzen is dying too fast for some reason. You both have 1 min CC abilities--and hers can hit up to three normal targets if she went Balance. If you both went damage, you have enough points in your trees to get your 11 pt talents, and your damage is increasing nicely. Nothing outside elites and champions should be living long enough to be a problem if you are focusing on the same target, and if things do go south you still have those long-term CCs (plus all the shorter-duration stuns and knockbacks you have). Heroic 2s should be trivial, and many Heroic 4s should be doable. If not, well, they're not called Heroic 4s for nothing.

 

Of course, the thing about Heroic missions is that they are completely optional. You can get through a planet's class and world stories without ever doing one and still get enough commendations to afford a few upgrades at the end. If you're really having that much trouble doing Heroics (and again, you shouldn't be) then maybe you should just skip them. Focus on doing your class stories and normal quests and you should be fine.

 

Because if you can't get through the normal packs found while doing regular quests with a group of two plus companions...you have serious problems, and they aren't the game's fault.

 

You clearly don' t know what you're talking about. You have no idea how we play our characters or what circumstances we're encountering, and I clearly can't seem to adequately express what it is that's now different other than to say we're taking damage at a much higher rate leading to the premature deaths of our characters where we were doing just fine before. I don't believe your assumptions are accurate that it's our fault. There is a definite change in the survivability for Commando s that wasn't there before that changes the fun factor.

 

As they say, "Your mileage may differ".

Edited April 20, 2012 by Star-ranger

[azhrione]

You clearly don' t know what you're talking about. You have no idea how we play our characters or what circumstances we're encountering, and I clearly can't seem to adequately express what it is that's now different other than to say we're taking damage at a much higher rate leading to the premature deaths of our characters where we were doing just fine before. I don't believe your assumptions are accurate that it's our fault. There is a definite change in the survivability for Commando s that wasn't there before that changes the fun factor.

 

As they say, "Your mileage may differ".

 

Actually he does know what he's talking about, unless you're just standing there doing nothing the content is so trivial that ANY action on your part will have success. What you are suggesting is that the class is broken, in spite of evidence to the contrary that you cannot refute. A far more plausible theory is that if you are having the issues described and no one else is reporting the same issues, then you, not the class are the problem.

 

Yes, Commando took a hit to survivability, Charged Barrier was reduced from 2% per stack to 1% per stack. Grav Round took a 10% DPS hit, and Grav Vortex is not currently working properly as of 1.2.0c, but otherwise Gunnery is pretty much unchanged at the level you are claiming difficulties at. Those changes turned ultra trivial content into trivial content.

 

The game is not the problem here, yes there are issues and 1.2 sucked for a lot of people, but it boggles the brain that someone is so incompetent to have the problems you are describing. I think we best just call this one a troll.

[Fight]

Actually he does know what he's talking about, unless you're just standing there doing nothing the content is so trivial that ANY action on your part will have success. What you are suggesting is that the class is broken, in spite of evidence to the contrary that you cannot refute. A far more plausible theory is that if you are having the issues described and no one else is reporting the same issues, then you, not the class are the problem.

 

Yes, Commando took a hit to survivability, Charged Barrier was reduced from 2% per stack to 1% per stack. Grav Round took a 10% DPS hit, and Grav Vortex is not currently working properly as of 1.2.0c, but otherwise Gunnery is pretty much unchanged at the level you are claiming difficulties at. Those changes turned ultra trivial content into trivial content.

 

The game is not the problem here, yes there are issues and 1.2 sucked for a lot of people, but it boggles the brain that someone is so incompetent to have the problems you are describing. I think we best just call this one a troll.

 

Please keep in mind that changes to us are not the only thing affecting us, any logical person can put two and two together and realise that other classes have been changed dramatically to be more effective against us. Our "heavy" armour has always been the basis of the argument that we cant have too much utility, those days however are over, our armour counts for literally nothing when 90% of damage taken is elemental and internal. Think, listen, learn. Dont presume to lecture people here if you are too simple to look past layer one.

[Raeln]

We used to duo Heroic 4's, it was a near thing most of the time, but we still got through many of them. Some like the Sand people chieftan in the cave on Tatooine we never did finish. However, since 1.2 we just die quickly where we would have survived before. What's wrong is what the developers did to our class. It's broken now. Obviously not everybody sees it that way, but there's a lot of people who feel the same way. You don't, good for you, go play the game. You can't fix the problem for us especially since you don't see it. It's sort of like changing candy half way through the movie from Sweet Tarts to Licorice. If you like Licorice you probably won't care. If you think Licorice tastes bad you'll mind.

 

You know, I feel obligated to point out that success should not be guaranteed when you try to duo a heroic 4.

 

While my brother and I duo'd almost every heroic 4 up until Corelia and Ilum - there were a few that we could not. That doesn't mean the class is broken. Now, I personally don't agree with the concept of heroic 4 quests out in the world but if they are going to be classified as heroic 4s then they should probably be difficult enough to require 4 real players.

 

On a design philosophy level: character classes should not be hard to figure out. Nor should the average casual player need a special strategy guide to figure out how to play them. If they do, it's bad design. If playing a class requires special number crunching skills on the part of players to succeed, or you need elite equipment to succeed, or special tactics that few are going to figure out... it's not casual player friendly. Games that are not casual player friendly eventually turn into nitch games. The casual players go away and all that's left are the hardcore gamers. Companies can drive off players with bad decisions like over correcting for perceived balance problems. It's their game. They can do what they want.

 

A gunnery commando is not hard to figure out. I found almost no difference in survivability for my gear level - which is, admittedly, almost all Rakata (T3) gear. Now, perhaps it is different for a low/mid level commando that is not able to have all the necessary talents. This is an inherent problem in any point-based talent system though.

 

But if I'm not having fun, I can take my money someplace else thank you. Since the adjustments to the trooper class in 1.2, I've found the game less enjoyable. Options are of course 1 try to make the best of it. and keep playing those characters that are now gimped (and not have fun)...2 Play other characters (as more classes get nerfed there are less and less viable options--and frankly I'm tired of restarting characters)... or 3 Leave and play some other game.

 

Perhaps the problem is that you are "restarting characters" and trying to do content that insinuates you need more than 2 players.

 

Your primary survivability complaint is in heroic 4s - yet you are trying to duo them with 2 players. A well-geared companion is only 60% of the output of a player at best. So with all things the best they can be, at most - you have 3.2 players worth of power while trying to do a heroic 4. I know I had a difficult time keeping my companions well-fitted as they primarily got my hand-me-downs while I was leveling. My Elara is now wearing near T2 gear and does awesome but she still isn't as good as having a T2 geared healer specced player around.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Raeln

[Raeln]

Actually my cat does jump on my keyboard from time to time--and when they do it is the worst possible time.

 

Frankly coming from COH I don't think much of the CC here, if you can even really call it that.

 

Yes we send in the clowns... er tanking companions... as necessary. Corso often causes more trouble than he's worth, and of course they got rid of the harpoon. My wife's commando and my gunslinger were both in the 20's on Taris. so there isn't the selection of companions you mention. She only has Jorgan, he's OK but like I said they both die fast. CC doesn't come up fast enough or last long enough IMO.

 

Still it's the armor issue. Whatever we're fighting just tears right through the heavy armor. I would assume that's why my Gunslinger is left standing in his medium armor after the fight and everybody in heavy armor is dead. It is puzzling.

 

Your gunslinger is standing behind cover, reducing incoming damage by a percentage - which is, yes, far better than heavy armor.

 

I personally had trouble on my commando until I got Elara (which is at the end of Taris). Once I got Elara, I use her exclusively. I have tried to use other companions but I either have too much downtime from healing back up after the fight or just take too much damage to be efficient anyway. It's better for me to just have her heal me and I tank/kite what I need to kill. (Yes, to some small degree I have kited some tough mobs).

 

On a side point, I really wish we could rekit our companions to do the role we want them to do. Even though my character is married in the story to Elara, there are times I wouldn't mind having 4X as my companion because he's awesome. Since he can't heal me, he's actually a liability to me in efficiency. Too bad I can't "reprogram" him to fire kolto bolts at me instead.

[azhrione]

Please keep in mind that changes to us are not the only thing affecting us, any logical person can put two and two together and realise that other classes have been changed dramatically to be more effective against us. Our "heavy" armour has always been the basis of the argument that we cant have too much utility, those days however are over, our armour counts for literally nothing when 90% of damage taken is elemental and internal. Think, listen, learn. Dont presume to lecture people here if you are too simple to look past layer one.

 

The OP is not talking about PVP and I am thankful for that, if they cannot duo an Elite and a Strong then PVP failure is a foregone conclusion. So comparing other classes improved ability "against" Commandos is not relevant to the conversation.

 

The specific complaints of the OP were that they were dying on every pull, that it wasn't fun anymore, and something radically changed in the class design to break something. The facts do not match their assertions.

 

It also helps not to patronize people calling out trolls.