Dungeon Finder Needed Badly

[RachelAnne]

Your argument is contrived, vain, misinformed and completely judgemental. You accuse us of your own crimes, say we will not compromise yet it is you who outright refuses the idea of any Group Finder to be created. You have problems with not hand picking your own group to be in charge of and then accuse us of being elitist.

 

But as I have said, Group Finder IS coming into the game with Patch 1.3 so really, your argument is in vain. You can learn to play with others or you can ask Bioware to make a special Hermit Server for those who do not play well with others.

 

Nowhere did I ever say I dont want a LFG at all. I keep refering to wow´s LFG, I dont want that one because its not working properly.

 

I am unsure what it has to do with "elitist" if I think that it would be a good idea to let those who have similar intrest´s play together. From my point of you do people play games for fun, to relax or to achieve something.

 

Because of this they should not be forced to play with those that are not sharing the same intrest´s. If someone wants to play hardcore, then he should play with his kind. Just like a casual should with his etc. What wow does is throwing many different people into 1 pool, its the breeding ground for conflict´s.

Thats why I think that a system with filters, manual adjustments to the queue is much better than a random draw like at wow.

 

If you pick a server from the list to play on, then you do this because you expect something there. I picked for instance a RP Server, because I like to RP and chat while playing.

If someone joins a pve server he most likely wants to have raids etc.

The next reason is always the community there, at wow you had servers where you knew that they are controlled by "hardcore" players - so as a casual this was not your server but as a person with big raiding goals it was.

 

I dont want to control other players way of playing the game, I want to influence and control my own. If I get home from work, then I would love to play a dungeon, a Wz etc. with likeminded players who share similar intrest´s.

 

If you go out into a club, then you also select which one because of the music thats played there and the crowd. Just imagine you would make a random roll and then end up somewhere where they play stuff that you dont like at all. Wouldnt be fun, would it?

 

I am the last who would complain in a random group and demand that they all play like I want to, I just said that it was very difficult at wow, if so many things were done differently and you were used to your own server.

 

If I got into hardcore groups and didnt feel like rusing, then I just left those groups and was punished for it by a 30 min deserter. This also doesnt feel right, the hardcores wont have fun with me and I wont with them - so why punish me or them if we split?

 

The whole wow system is a pure do it our way or we punish you, and you have no influence at all on your own game experience that you pay money for.

 

There is a reason why Blizz keeps pushing those xtra rewards for those that use the tool, why they add 30% damage increase or badges to groups that finish a dungeon. They do know that the tool is not the big "ya we love it" kind of thing and would need many tweaks.

 

I actually was happy when they first announced the tool but their execution is a serious problem and I do hope that BW can do better there.

[chaosdefined]

So like I said, they need to add in as many options as they can to fully customise how a person queues up.

Options like Single Server or Cross Server

Story Mode or Quick Run

1st Role Choice (Healer/Tank/DPS) 2nd Role Choice for those who are dual-specced and geared for it.

And so on like that.

 

Giving as much choice as possible to the player. How is that me refusing to compromise?

[Katahn]

So like I said, they need to add in as many options as they can to fully customise how a person queues up.

Options like Single Server or Cross Server

Story Mode or Quick Run

1st Role Choice (Healer/Tank/DPS) 2nd Role Choice for those who are dual-specced and geared for it.

And so on like that.

 

Giving as much choice as possible to the player. How is that me refusing to compromise?

 

It isn't but I would suggest that to a majority of us "anti-cross-server" people we are heavily influenced by the horrid implementations that were in WoW and in Rift. People clamor for "cross server LFG" and we tend to think that's what they have in mind and what they have in mind was, for many of us, reason why we are now playing this game instead of either of those games.

 

The thing is WoW and Rift had NONE of those options you describe, let alone any of the ones we describe as being ideal to preserve what we would consider the formation of good and healthy gaming communities. Of course a tool could be implemented to cover all of those bases but let me ask you this as an alternative...

 

If every server had a healthy population across all level ranges would a cross-server LFG tool be necessary?

 

I think the anwer to that is no and given the fact that a single-server LFG tool wouldn't need a majority of the safeguards we're asking for that the correct course of action for low-pop servers would be for Bioware to address that issue on its own merits and with its own solutions. After all, a cross-server LFG tool is not going to help anyone do anything that isn't 100% instanced which makes it a poor solution for the stated problem of "there aren't enough people on my server to group with".

 

I absolutely want Bioware to address the low server population issue - but I want it to be done correctly. Solving the issues of moving character(s) from server A to server B (Legacy, perks, guilds if an entire guild moves, etc.) is a set of problems that have far fewer "moving parts" than trying to fine tune a grouping mechanism meant to safeguard against all the ways people can be jerks to each other ranging from the intentional to the "its just a difference in playstyle". It allows for the preservation of playstyle via server choice. It allows for friends made in groups that are run to be contacted and interacted with outside of the flashpoint and without the need of the tool or specialized new tech.

[AzKnc]

People may as well stop arguing about this, subscriptions have been steadily dropping, the deadline has arrived and after a few months of no competition (except wow, to which LOADS of people went back to btw) new games are finally about to be released. Bw failed to implement the feature (along with other features too) before this deadline and now people will simply go play something else, even if they add a dungeon tool by june or july it won't do the game's health any good, just as it didn't in rift where it got added too late.

 

This game desperately needed the same exact implementation of wow's cross server dungeon and possibly raid(story ops mode largely qualify for that feature in terms of difficulty) finder, and the lack of such tools played a huge part into swtor's miserable failure.

 

At this point, for me it's pretty much irrelevant if they add it or not, as i'll be playing some of the new releases such as tera and d3 regardless, and seeing how bw handled things, having no clue whatsoever what a game needs in order to be successful, if i ever come back to something, it will most likely be wow in mop and not swtor.

Edited April 25, 2012 by AzKnc

[AzKnc]

If every server had a healthy population across all level ranges would a cross-server LFG tool be necessary?

 

The answer is yes, because even if you don't, there are people who play at off hours and would like to get instance groups in a reasonable amount of queue time even when they are playing between say 2 and 8 am. And aside from that, the queue would be faster at any hour.

 

From a functionality perspective it only makes sense to want the best tool you can have for the task at hand, and in this case, cross server is lightyears ahead of single server.

[tkinnunzero]

If every server had a healthy population across all level ranges would a cross-server LFG tool be necessary?

 

This was answered already, so let me ask you:

 

If every server had been merged into just one server, would you still be against cross-server LFG?

[Katahn]

This was answered already, so let me ask you:

 

If every server had been merged into just one server, would you still be against cross-server LFG?

 

No because I would have all the single-server functionality I want.

- Friends

- Forming groups without the tool

- Finding guilds via playing

 

Of course it would still be better to at least segregate the super-server into 4 slightly less super but still massive servers: PvE, PvP, RP-PvE, and RP-PvP.

[chaosdefined]

No because I would have all the single-server functionality I want.

- Friends

- Forming groups without the tool

- Finding guilds via playing

 

Of course it would still be better to at least segregate the super-server into 4 slightly less super but still massive servers: PvE, PvP, RP-PvE, and RP-PvP.

 

If there were only super-servers like that, I can imagine the complaints would still come in only instead of Cross-Server being the cause of all evil, it would be "There are too many people in my MMO! I don't know them all and so they're probably bad."

[Katahn]

If there were only super-servers like that, I can imagine the complaints would still come in only instead of Cross-Server being the cause of all evil, it would be "There are too many people in my MMO! I don't know them all and so they're probably bad."

 

That's a mischaracterization of the anti-cross-server complaints I think, although if you were joking I can understand the frustration.

 

It is true that part of the problem of cross-server is you get a very large pool of people for the "jerks to hide in". But by itself that isn't the objection - at least not in my case anyway.

 

All of the horror stories of xserver PUGs from other games essentially derive from the fact that you can't really (or couldn't as of the last time I dealt with them) form lasting friendships over multiple play sessions with anyone. You see by doing that you eventually could build up a vibrant list of "good players" from which to form your groups, or find a guild to join to tackle multi-group content. It would allow you to eventually reach a point where even if you had to use the tool to PUG someone in they would be the minority and you could get rid of them if they proved to be truly catastrophic.

 

Lacking the ability to do any of that in the cross-server tools when I was in those games you were permanently stuck in the "no quality control" mode of PUGing. Worse due to the high probability you wouldn't be grouped with anyone from your server there was no meeting cool people to guild with (either to invite them or be invited by them). Sure you could join a "pickup guild" by asking about it in /trade in one of the WoW cities - but compared to finding the guild by playing with them approach this was lacking in quality control as well.

 

Group the servers together by type, allow for cross-server friending of specific characters, allow for cross-server communication and group forming, and allow for free transfers to other servers of the same type and I would absolutely be on board with a cross-server tool. Of course at this point it really wouldn't be a cross-server tool at all... it would be a single-server tool with the actual servers being little more than "channels" that characters live in for a time.

[chaosdefined]

I was only partly joking. People will hate something for the sake of hating.

 

There are so many horror stories about Cross Server because those complaining will makes themselves ten times louder than anyone giving praise.

[MajikMyst]

This was answered already, so let me ask you:

 

If every server had been merged into just one server, would you still be against cross-server LFG?

 

Ummm?? Is that a trick question?? If all the servers are merged into one server.. Why would need or how could have a cross server LFG system??

 

I don't think we need a cross server LFG either.. For the reasons that myself and others have stated..

[MajikMyst]

I was only partly joking. People will hate something for the sake of hating.

 

There are so many horror stories about Cross Server because those complaining will makes themselves ten times louder than anyone giving praise.

 

Your denial doesn't make any of those horror stories any less true.. Many people disagree with you for a reason.. We all lived through the catastrophy on WOW.. You blowing us off and calling us haters doesn't change the facts or the truth..

 

A cross server LFG system has the potential to do some real harm to the game.. It also isn't good for the community..

[chaosdefined]

Ummm?? Is that a trick question?? If all the servers are merged into one server.. Why would need or how could have a cross server LFG system??

 

.

 

So that went a bit over your head huh?

[chaosdefined]

 

A cross server LFG system has the potential to do some real harm to the game.. It also isn't good for the community..

 

Oh the humanity!! Won't somebody please think of the community?!

Edited April 26, 2012 by chaosdefined

[MajikMyst]

So that went a bit over your head huh?

 

Not at all.. Sorry you missed the humor in it..

[chaosdefined]

Not at all.. Sorry you missed the humor in it..

 

Now you're just not making sense.

[Vrylokai]

Your denial doesn't make any of those horror stories any less true.. Many people disagree with you for a reason.. We all lived through the catastrophy on WOW.. You blowing us off and calling us haters doesn't change the facts or the truth..

 

A cross server LFG system has the potential to do some real harm to the game.. It also isn't good for the community..

 

I played WoW and lived through the supposed horrors of cross server dungeon finders. Sure you get the occasional headache group, but more times than not, the groups were more than fine. And every single person knows it. Unfortunately, you just tend to remember the bad ones, even if they are only a few.

 

The LFG systems implemented in games have done nothing but enhance the dungeon experience for those who wanted to use it. Get groups faster. Can quest/farm/dailies, what have you while waiting for your group. You do not have to sit in designated spot, spamming for wasted time.

 

All the supposed cons I cry hogwash. You get all that stuff, even worse, on your supposed community friendly single server. Hell look at the supposed community here on the forums. No one can post an opinion that goes against what you/he/she thinks without getting ridiculed or lambasted. Hypocrisy is what I say. Heck, you just basically help the argument that it destroys community being silly, very valid.

 

I don't know how many times I have seen someone try to complain about a ninja in a group to their server community. And instead of that community siding with the victim, they all turn on him or her and ridicule them for being a qq'r or its just pixels, etc. And again, you see the similar antics in the threads where folks have posted here about the ninjas and lack of etiquette in their single server experience.

 

It is pretty dang simple. If you dont like the LFG, do not use it. It will not affect your "community" at all because you will never see anyone from a different server. You can continue to sit in the fleet and spam away. You will not be affected in the slightest. Me using the LFD tool, will not affect you at all.

 

And it needs to be cross server, for the faction imbalances that are prevalent on servers. Some factions wont have a problem if it is single server, others it won't fix a thing for them. So they need to pair servers with opposite faction imbalances to help the dungeon running crowd.

 

And yeah, I spent two evenings LFG. Got one lousy run in, with about 5 hours of spamming over the two evenings. Im all for the LFD, pros and cons included. I'll deal with the bad stuff to be able to actually run something.

[tkinnunzero]

Ummm?? Is that a trick question?? If all the servers are merged into one server.. Why would need or how could have a cross server LFG system??

 

I don't think we need a cross server LFG either.. For the reasons that myself and others have stated..

 

You're right, it's less of a question and more a warning.

 

We need a Cross-Server LFG before we reach a point where a Single-Server LFG can do the job just as well. If you catch my drift.

[BucMan]

From someone who would prefer a single server dungeon finder tool, a X-Server LFG without GearScore and integrated DPS Meters is a lot better than one that has both of those other two added "features". Also, lets see how well even a cross server LFG tool works if you don't get a bonus reward simply for using the tool. People forget that in WoW it really took off when you got more from the dungeon than just boss drops and quest rewards....You got something that wasn't available if you simply ran the dungeon the old fashioned way.

 

Edit: Oh, and the whole thing about being able to do dailies or level up or whatever while still being able to queue for a Flashpoint is not exclusive to a cross server system. Many calling for the single server version want it just for that purpose.

Edited April 26, 2012 by BucMan

[chaosdefined]

From someone who would prefer a single server dungeon finder tool, a X-Server LFG without GearScore and integrated DPS Meters is a lot better than one that has both of those other two added "features". Also, lets see how well even a cross server LFG tool works if you don't get a bonus reward simply for using the tool. People forget that in WoW it really took off when you got more from the dungeon than just boss drops and quest rewards....You got something that wasn't available if you simply ran the dungeon the old fashioned way.

 

Edit: Oh, and the whole thing about being able to do dailies or level up or whatever while still being able to queue for a Flashpoint is not exclusive to a cross server system. Many calling for the single server version want it just for that purpose.

 

That is true, but for those on low population servers, a single server group finder will not help, as we keep stating.

[patchew]

cross-server is a nightmare. it killed wow stonedead for myself and so many other players i played with.

my most relevant and remembered instance was a guy who joined and immediately spammed a macro of nig*** cu** all the way through the instance .... a good 50 minutes. Yes i can ignore him but there is limits to everything. because we couldnt kick him, thanks to the moronic kick rules that particular game had, and my ignore list was full to the brim of similar people, we had to play with this constant stream of racist scum-baggery from this guy.

loot rules have to be so very controlled and everyone just gets fed up and leaves and joins swotr ... oh wait.

 

LFG on the same server, yes totally. It means players cant act like douches without fear of reprisals and it makes the game so much easier to get groups for etc.

cross-server, gods no.

 

as for the op, um no.

no, i keep the heroic 2 and 4 man for the very simlpe reason that they are easy enough to get done. You dont need a tonk/healer/2 dps format fo most of em really.

Couple of dps and pets, youre fine.

good loot and good moneys to buy pretty shiny things with

[chaosdefined]

cross-server is a nightmare. it killed wow stonedead for myself and so many other players i played with.

my most relevant and remembered instance was a guy who joined and immediately spammed a macro of nig*** cu** all the way through the instance .... a good 50 minutes. Yes i can ignore him but there is limits to everything. because we couldnt kick him, thanks to the moronic kick rules that particular game had, and my ignore list was full to the brim of similar people, we had to play with this constant stream of racist scum-baggery from this guy.

loot rules have to be so very controlled and everyone just gets fed up and leaves and joins swotr ... oh wait.

 

LFG on the same server, yes totally. It means players cant act like douches without fear of reprisals and it makes the game so much easier to get groups for etc.

cross-server, gods no. as for the op, um no.

no, i keep the heroic 2 and 4 man for the very simlpe reason that they are easy enough to get done. You dont need a tonk/healer/2 dps format fo most of em really.

Couple of dps and pets, youre fine.

good loot and good moneys to buy pretty shiny things with

 

You realise people can be like that without cross server all they like? They can also ninja loot currently and there's no rules against it. You also can't kick in this game currently, only the leader can. Sucks when the ninja is the leader.

 

I also like how you complain about someone else being horrible, then go on to basically say "I don't want to play with other people from other servers, I don't care about anyone else suffering on low pop servers, they can suffer."

Edited April 26, 2012 by chaosdefined

[BucMan]

That is true, but for those on low population servers, a single server group finder will not help, as we keep stating.

 

Which is why the server mergers/transfers need to happen so if they implement the single server LFG tool, it gets a fair chance. Rift did not do this and they rushed to the cross server one.(then consolidated servers later because folks still had difficulties doing zone events and things of that nature)

 

Merge servers, use the single server tool with heroic mission functionality and I think it will work. The servers I worry about are the light ones. Standard seems to have a pretty good handle, but light just has little to no shot.

[chaosdefined]

Which is why the server mergers/transfers need to happen so if they implement the single server LFG tool, it gets a fair chance. Rift did not do this and they rushed to the cross server one.(then consolidated servers later because folks still had difficulties doing zone events and things of that nature)

 

Merge servers, use the single server tool with heroic mission functionality and I think it will work. The servers I worry about are the light ones. Standard seems to have a pretty good handle, but light just has little to no shot.

 

And again as we keep stating, from a business perspective Bioware will not merge servers for months yet. They will not want to go down as the MMO to have done the quickest server merge since Launch.

[BucMan]

You realise people can be like that without cross server all they like? They can also ninja loot currently and there's no rules against it. You also can't kick in this game currently, only the leader can. Sucks when the ninja is the leader.

 

I also like how you complain about someone else being horrible, then go on to basically say "I don't want to play with other people from other servers, I don't care about anyone else suffering on low pop servers, they can suffer."

 

I've always said stereotypes may not be the right thing to do, but they exist for a reason. And there is a reason that regardless of the good/bad pro/con - which outweighs which argument that when cross server LFG went into place the ninjas and jerk behavior became more commonplace. More commonplace than what?? Only than before. What that actual percantage chance of having it happen in example group A or B I don't know about. It's really not THAT great a chance. I will also say that gearscore, badge rushing(& free stuff just for using the tool), and DPS Meters contributed to that. So while it shares blame with other things, the fact that other things also contributed does not absolve it of any responsibility.

 

 

Also, sometimes I wonder who I am arguing for as many folks who appear to be on my side of the fence are doing more to make us look foolish than anyone on the other side.

 

Advisor: "He'll use it to prove you are incompetent."

 

Benson: "Nonsense, I can prove that just as well as him"

 

-- exchange with President Benson and his advisor in Hot Shots Part Deux