AP Impression and 1.2

[Ceepo]

First off, I don't post on forums much, but I do read A Lot. Also, I'm not a hardcore player but I do try to play competitively. So with that stated, here is a link to my AP build and my thoughts/opinions on AP and 1.2 (Yes, I have played Pyrotech but I will address that later.)

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hRMZMsrrobfkdsZb.1

(Obviously this will be adjusted with 1.2)

 

First, I'll give you my rotation and explain my skill choices after. My PVE dmg rotation not accounting for Adrenals or Relic buffs. If I'm not in melee range I will use Explosive Dart while moving to the target. My rotation is then as follows. Immolate (free RP) - Retractable Blade (DOT and possible RS Crit) - RP (no heat cost, possible RS Crit and IGC stick) - Rail Shot - Rapid Shots (brings heat down to zero) - Flame Burst (Only once for 1 stack of Proto Flame Thrower) - Flame Thrower - Rapid Shots x2 (Heat is back down to zero) - Repeat. After that final Rapid shots is fired Immolate will have just gotten off of cooldown and all the resets are perfectly timed in this rotation. However, roughly every 2 mins I will Spam FB x5 for the full stack of Proto Flamethrower and then use Vent Heat to bring the Heat back down to get back into rotation. This allows for no overheating (without the HEGC) and gives no problem to occasionally throw in other abilities if need be (ie Quell at any time it's needed, Explosive Dart if knocked back, Corbonize for adds, etc.)

((PVP roation is obviously entirely different.))

 

The reason I went with IGC over HEGC is solely for more survivability and ability to guard. I already have no heat problems with this rotation so HEGC isn't needed in that regard and, in my opinion, the dmg boost from HEGC isn't better than the +15% shield chance, IGC dmg and ability to guard (particularly a healer in an ops when you would prefer to minimize dmg to healers and being a DPS aren't taking all that much dmg to start with.)

 

The reason to take the 3 second cooldown on Flamethrower is because it just makes the rotation fit perfectly and you get a bonus of 10 seconds off Grapple for PVP.

 

The 2 points in Power Armor can be switched with the 10 seconds in Electro Dart but really the only reason I have those 2 points is because they are needed to have the 31 points in AP.

 

Now the 3 points in IGC abilities is for a very small gap closer in PVP and for RP to automatically trigger IGC and not have to use Rapid Shots or Unload to trigger it, but those 3 points could be moved elsewhere like the 9% Aim bonus.

 

Now I solo played AP from the beginning all the way to 50 and had no problems on any of the content (I only used Mako) so it is a viable option to level. But then again every single build for all classes if played right can solo all content from 1-50 (not counting Heroics of course).

 

Now the fun part, the discussion with Pyrotech. I have played Pyro at lvl 50 and I will agree (though I don't like to of course) that it does do greater DPS. The IM DOT is better than the RB DOT and it can be applied from range. The Railshot crits from Pyro are way higher than AP. TD does significantly more dmg than Immolate and a greater range. Really the only thing we have right now the gives us any better utility is for PVP and that is the 20% dmg reduction when stunned and the HO ability (which is actually a great ability for Huttball).

As far as PVP goes though, I really can't think of any matches that I outDPS a Pyro. I don't often manage to get over 300k dmg during matches (keep in mind, that I do always play for objectives and not just to kill people so my dmg output will be lower than others) but when I played Pyro breaking 300k dmg was no problem. Although unlike Pyros I make Healers lives a lot easier with guard as well as the ball carrier during Huttball. Now the highly argutive comment. I can beat most classes in a 1v1 fight. To be honest, the only classes that I have a hard time killing in a 1v1 fight is healers IF they actually know how to deal with the interrupts from Quell due to our lack of burst DPS like the Pyro RS/TD but then again they can't kill me either because they are just constantly healing themselves. Also, Marauders and Sentinals are troublesome if they are good at their class but their are many times that I can beat them in a 1v1 fight despite what some Pyro/Saber players will say. Most others classes are pretty even and can be defeated in a 1v1 it just depends on who is more skilled. I'm not really going to talk on PVP anymore.

 

I'm not even going to try to compare Pyro to AP in PVE because without the parser there is no real conclusion.

 

Now the 1.2 changes to AP. Removed Kolto Vents and replaced with a RB Snare - this is a much needed ability for us as we are almost entirely a melee dps. People keep arguing that the length should be increased to the full 15 seconds, but honestly that would be OP. How would you feel to play Huttball with a 15 second snare? I think the 6 seconds is fine and you really don't need it any longer than that as you should be able to keep up with your target at that point and if you can't for some reason RB has no CD so you can hit it again. The ability for Charged Gauntlets to proc from RB bleed ticks - Okay, doesn't really make that much of a difference since RS still has a 15 second CD. And finally the update to Proto Flame Thrower - Immolate adds a stack now, this is great for my rotation as it will mostly just give 2 stacks to my FT rather than 1. The ability for FT to be uninterabtable, this is just good to have in general. The 70% snare with 5 stacks, this is great for PVP as FT isn't really all that useful except on Voidstar doorways. Now at least we should be able to get 2 to 3 of the ticks off before they get out of range. Also an annoyance for the ball carrier I suppose. However, the need for 5 stacks to use is kind of ridiculous, I'm not a fan of just spamming FB just to build that up when you have other abilities that do more dmg and it's just a heat sink to do so. In conclusion - these abilities are pretty much only useful for PVP. How is a RB Snare going to help me in PVE? What am I going to do with that, attempt to snare mobs that already come to me or just don't move? Snare the immovable Annihilation Driod? Not that Kolto Vent was of any real use but a very small 7% health every 2 minutes is more useful than the new snare. It doesn't offer anything to PVE. The 70% snare to Proto doesn't make any difference because we still have the 50% dmg bonus. And the Charged Gauntlets Proc, whatever. Doesn't make much difference as I already stated.

 

A suggestion for Proto Flamthrower - Mercs have a 1 point ability that allows TM to apply 2 stacks of Heat Signature. Making it so it only takes 3 TMs to get the full 5 stack. How about a 1 point ability for us that does the same? Making it only cost 3 Imm/FB to have a full 5 stack FT. People could easily work this into a PVE rotation. And for people to say that would be OP for PVP remember, FT is still on a 15 second CD. A different alternative I saw someone mention in another thread is to reduce the stack requirement to 3 and each stack is a 15% dmg bonus rather than 10%. This is really the same thing with a 5% dmg reduction at full stack but not need a 1 point skill to get it.

 

Honsetly I can't really think of any other suggestions that wouldn't be OP in some way to make us more comparable to Pyro. The only thing would be to boost our abilities base dmg. IE Immolate does closer dmg to TD or a boost to our RS dmg. Now that RB has a snare I don't really think it is necessary for it to get a dmg boost to be more comparable with IM. Now this is a forum open to discussion. So please try to not just flame AP you crazy Pyro's out there. Bring constructive criticism and ideas to help balance AP. Because I know a lot of you Pyro's really enjoy the playstyle of AP but just don't play it do to it being worse than Pyro. So thoughts, opinions suggestions?

[Noollig]

I disagree with the idea that retractable blade's optional snare makes up for it's lesser damage. The snare is not going to be as useful in PvE as in PvP, so PvE specs probably won't even take that skill.

 

Pyro's with sweltering heat can keep targets snared 50% nearly 100% of the time without having to waste a GCD on a skill that does subpar damage. Speccing into the AP 30% snare that requires you to reapply retractable blade every 6 seconds isn't even close.

 

The skill itself does not need to have its damage increased but the skill above it in the tree, Serrated Blades, could use a boost so deep AP would get a bonus. Serrated Blades is just nowhere near Prototype Particle accelerator in the Pyro tree. SB needs to increase RB damage more than 15%, 10/20/30 would be more appropriate too keep it in line with the superior dots and railshot resets that pyros get.

 

Either that or the number of flamebursts you have to spam to max stacks of Prototype Flamethrower should be reduced. Another option is just to allow Flame Sweep to add a stack for each enemy you hit, so you could max stacks quickly for AoE situations.

[TheOpf]

My guess is this is for pvp solely due to IGC usage. 3 major concerns.

 

1. No Prototype for HEC and no free Rail shot venting, and no shield venting = serious venting issues.

 

2. If IGC is your only slow, you are going to have serious chase issues if they decide to kite you.

 

 

3. In 1.2 RB and FT will have slows so there is no need to severely hamper your dps by going IGC.

 

 

The truth is that currently on live AP wihout HEC is even worse damage wise than any other class. However if you want to really make your healers life easier. Why not go Iron fist or deep Shield tech? Your survivability and help capabilities are greater, you have fewer heat issues, and your damage is about the same since you took away HEC out of your build.

[Ceepo]

The skill itself does not need to have its damage increased but the skill above it in the tree, Serrated Blades, could use a boost so deep AP would get a bonus. Serrated Blades is just nowhere near Prototype Particle accelerator in the Pyro tree. SB needs to increase RB damage more than 15%, 10/20/30 would be more appropriate too keep it in line with the superior dots and railshot resets that pyros get.

 

Either that or the number of flamebursts you have to spam to max stacks of Prototype Flamethrower should be reduced. Another option is just to allow Flame Sweep to add a stack for each enemy you hit, so you could max stacks quickly for AoE situations.

 

I agree that SB could use a boost, I meant that the base dmg for RB doesn't need an increase (and I had not considered the snare Pyro's get from sweltering heat). Also your idea with Flame Sweep being able to add a stack per target hit is an interesting idea. Really the only time that I use that ability is on Voidstar doors to prevent Planting/Defusing or Alderaan Objectives for same reason. It's heat cost and low dmg isn't worth using. But if it built stacks per target hit it would make it a good skill to use in PVP and trash mobs in PVE. Wouldn't be much help in Boss Fights but you wouldn't really need it in those fights either.

[TheOpf]

Either that or the number of flamebursts you have to spam to max stacks of Prototype Flamethrower should be reduced. Another option is just to allow Flame Sweep to add a stack for each enemy you hit, so you could max stacks quickly for AoE situations.

 

Flame Sweep also hits the 5 stack. In AoE situations, You would Flame Burst Flame Sweep, and you should be able to get to 5 stacks pretty easily.

[Ceepo]

My guess is this is for pvp solely due to IGC usage. 3 major concerns. I do use this same build in PVE and if guarding isn't necessary I do switch to HEGC

 

1. No Prototype for HEC and no free Rail shot venting, and no shield venting = serious venting issues. PVE and PVP I have never had any heat issues with this build

 

2. If IGC is your only slow, you are going to have serious chase issues if they decide to kite you. If people try to kite I have HO for gap closing and Grapple if they get too far, I rarely have much of an issue

 

 

3. In 1.2 RB and FT will have slows so there is no need to severely hamper your dps by going IGC. Right, like I stated I will be changing a few things when 1.2 hits (Maybe even considering HEGC again)

 

The IGC is mainly for PVP and sometimes in HM FP or Ops for guard but I will often switch back to HEGC for the 8% dmg bonus to internal and elemental dmg.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Ceepo

[Agooz]

First of all, I would like to say that you have a much better concept or understanding about the AP tree than the other 2-3 senseless spokespersons trolling this forum.

 

In pve AP is viable, as in it will "get the job done". But you cant expect it to equal the damage output of pyro. If AP did the same damage as Pyro, then it would totally be unbalanced, since the pyro tree doesnt even have half the mobility/utility of AP. So if you want to bring the most dps your class can muster to a raid, you need Pyro.

 

With regards to your spec, I totally agree that going IGC is much better than HEGC. But there are some points that I would personally move around. Let me also point out that switching the ST points with Pyro and using CGC would also work better than HEGC. So it is a matter of whether you want more survivability and guard OR more damage.

 

In your case, going with IGC, I would not take the Ion Overload and neural overload. You already have a constant dot and snare through RB, and the damage of IGC is very much lackluster. I would instead use those 3 point in Steely Resolve. Also since you're going for survivability, consider Combust over Rail Loaders. If you will stay in IGC all the time, then Prototype Cylinder is also not worth it, might be more useful to put that point in proto electro surge.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Agooz

[Taerrik]

Ouch, I'm getting trolled by agoz ftl.

 

Current 10/31 build I've been playing for awhile. I switched 2 points from pyro tree for RP boost to complete steely resolve, previously I played 8/31/2. Playing it in anticipation of 1.2, I dont like how clunky pyro feels on the PTR, still get nice bursts but I feel useless in the forced downtime the spec has.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RMhMZRcrrobfkds.1

 

IGC is far superior than HEGC, with current AP you should have few heat issues unless your spamming flame burst. Immolate makes RP free and thats pleanty for 1 burst cycle to keep heat in check. Ret Blade is fine for dot application for rail shot alsoif your team has no bleeds. I generally reach 400k in voidstar, not crazy but still not bad.

If you try to include flamethrower in your normal dps rotation, you can easily kill someone 100%-0% like pyro can, but you will overheat after 2 cycles, better to save flamethrower as a utility tool of pushing groups of healthbars down instead of just one.

 

Any non tank you can take to about half health fairly reliably and often. In PREMADES (not solo queue) this is golden considering the utility you bring.

Guard/Taunts

Pull

Hydro Overide

Super Flamethrower to punish clumping. Taking 3 or more people down 4-6k hp for standing next to each other is a sweet deal.

 

Myself and 1 other deeps walk around exploding people every 10 seconds or so. Nothing I couldnt do as pyro, but I have access to HO, much more fun.

[Saprezzan]

I disagree with the idea that retractable blade's optional snare makes up for it's lesser damage. The snare is not going to be as useful in PvE as in PvP, so PvE specs probably won't even take that skill.

 

Pyro's with sweltering heat can keep targets snared 50% nearly 100% of the time without having to waste a GCD on a skill that does subpar damage. Speccing into the AP 30% snare that requires you to reapply retractable blade every 6 seconds isn't even close.

 

 

I agree, a 15 second snare isn't unreasonable at all - RB does cost 16 heat after all. Keeping the target snared means that heat effectively wasted on a small damage attack and refreshing a DoT way before it has a chance to run its course.

 

 

The skill itself does not need to have its damage increased but the skill above it in the tree, Serrated Blades, could use a boost so deep AP would get a bonus. Serrated Blades is just nowhere near Prototype Particle accelerator in the Pyro tree. SB needs to increase RB damage more than 15%, 10/20/30 would be more appropriate too keep it in line with the superior dots and railshot resets that pyros get.

 

Either that or the number of flamebursts you have to spam to max stacks of Prototype Flamethrower should be reduced. Another option is just to allow Flame Sweep to add a stack for each enemy you hit, so you could max stacks quickly for AoE situations.

 

I would argue that even 30% wouldn't be enough, unless it applied to both the direct damage and DoT.

[gravioli]

Ouch, I'm getting trolled by agoz ftl.

 

Current 10/31 build I've been playing for awhile. I switched 2 points from pyro tree for RP boost to complete steely resolve, previously I played 8/31/2. Playing it in anticipation of 1.2, I dont like how clunky pyro feels on the PTR, still get nice bursts but I feel useless in the forced downtime the spec has.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RMhMZRcrrobfkds.1

 

What gear are you using with this spec?