You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.

[ArtosKincaid]

***Preface: I am in a guild of strong PvPers that have been together over multiple games and played well as a group. I personally have been doing PvP in MMOs since DAoC and very much enjoyed the tank playstyle in what has been pretty much every game I've played up to SWTOR. My ability to play the class really isn't in question here - what is in question is the fact that the numbers and skills make no sense.***

 

You win Bioware.

 

I'm ready to give up on my Juggernaut. The class seems like it should be good, right up until you get into any sort of PvP situation with it.

 

We get heavy armor. Seems awesome right? Then you realize it doesn't actually mitigate damage from the majority of skills, or mitigates only part of it and you're still taking elemental or internal damage.

 

We're a tank class, so we should have more health than other classes right? Nope, not even if you make an effort to get more, because everyone can mod their gear to have the exact same mods you do and apparently DPS classes like marauders/sentinels should have more base HP to compensate for their lower potential armor. Except the armor doesn't actually mitigate most of the damage that kills you.

 

Next, we come to base class cooldowns. We get Endure Pain, which seems like it should be good, but in reality just lets you live another 10 seconds maybe, 15 if you spec all the way up Immortal. At the end you will, 95% of the time, have a DoT on you and die to the tick immediately following the expiration of Endure Pain. I have this happen even when I have a pocket healer in PvP because suddenly I lose 30% of my health and then take a DoT tick while he's channeling a heal.

 

Saber Ward is actually a halfway decent cooldown. The problem is it's on a 3 minute timer. This is the ability we get in place of a 4 second stun that the other base classes get. Said stun has a 1 minute cooldown and can be decreased to 50 seconds for every other class. I have no way to reduce the cooldown on Saber Ward, which I can already use only 1/3 as often as the equivalent abilities given to other classes. Also, this ability is available to marauders so they get another defensive cooldown.

 

Force Push is supposed to be our equivalent to Grapple and Force Pull, except it's on a longer cooldown and 50% or more of the time, the client has different positions than the server and you end up pushing your target in a completely different direction other than the one you intended, whereas Grapple and Force Pull you just have to deal with the possibility of bouncing someone off the ceiling. Only really relevant in a few places in Huttball.

 

You can spec Immortal and get Invincible, except that has the same problem Saber Ward does - the cooldown is way, way too long for PvP especially considering the abilities other classes get. In turn, you get to try and play in Soresu with terrible rage generation and damage output (which I did for the first 67 Valor ranks). Because tanking in this game is entirely cooldown dependent for PvP, you can tank for about 22 seconds (Invincible followed by Saber Ward) while tank specced. During that time, the best you can put out pitiful damage that can be healed through by an DPS specced heal capable class, which I don't really have a problem with, except the other tank specs don't have this issue. Powertechs get a 25% reduction for 12 seconds every 2 minutes. Assassins get immunity to tech and Force powers for 5 seconds (if specced into it) and a 12% self heal every 20 seconds that does silly amounts of damage while slowing the target.

 

I finally gave up and specced Rage about a week ago, and the damage is actually making it possible for me to kill opponents and feel like I'm actually contributing to my team instead of just making us lose slower in bad matches. I'm enjoying this while I have the option to do so, before 1.2 is released. Once 1.2 comes out, marauders will be better smash monkeys than juggernauts because of Quick Recovery and the multitude of defensive cooldowns that make them more difficult to kill than a juggernaut.

 

I don't want to reroll. I shouldn't have to drop a character I've worked hard on since release because Zoeller seems to think that defensive stats do something in PvP and that class balance is somehow best served by making juggernauts inferior to marauders in almost every shape form or fashion in the DPS arena, and inferior to powertechs and assassins in the PvP tanking arena.

 

If the 1.2 changes go through as posted, there's a pretty good chance I'm just going to be done. My subscription is cancelled as of right now.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ArtosKincaid

[OmegaMayhem]

Some of the best tanks I know are Juggies.

 

I guess you ain't doing it right.

[TheBBP]

Thankfully this game does not seem to be balanced 1 vs all other classes. I like the paper, scissors, rock approach to balance.

[IPaq]

When people are going to understand (and accept) that you cannot truly balance PvP in MMO's based on toon being a specific class.

 

PS: It is pretty much an exercise in futility, until every class has the same toolset. Which is making them all 1 class =D.

 

Solution: Roll 1 toon of each Class/AC and use the FotM one.

Edited April 3, 2012 by IPaq

[lasmith]

You aren't doing it right, then.

[ArtosKincaid]

Some of the best tanks I know are Juggies.

 

I guess you ain't doing it right.

 

This really doesn't have anything to do with the post. I can out play a lot of people too, that doesn't make the class balanced - it just means I'm better at the game than the people I just beat. The fact that it's doable with what is, effectively, a broken class, does not change the base premise.

 

 

Thankfully this game does not seem to be balanced 1 vs all other classes. I like the paper, scissors, rock approach to balance.

 

What is the scissors to the juggernaut's rock?

 

Plus I honestly don't care about 1v1 - I care about group combat, and in a group situation there is nothing a juggernaut can do that one of the other tanks can't do just as well while either putting out more damage or having better survivability.

[ArtosKincaid]

When people are going to understand (and accept) that you cannot truly balance PvP in MMO's based on toon being a specific class.

 

PS: It is pretty much an exercise in futility, until every class has the same toolset. Which is making them all 1 class =D.

 

Solution: Roll 1 toon of each Class/AC and use the FotM one.

 

I don't want everyone to have the same exact toolset. I would like the class I elected to play to have an actual tanking toolset and something unique and worthwhile that the other classes in this roll do not have. This does not currently exist.

[Foxcolt]

Quick recovery is gone in 1.2 for marauders... so that's at least one less topic for you to qq about.

 

Also you can

 

LEAP

INTERCEDE

FORCE PUSH

 

You're the only class in the game that gets two leaps..if you can't pvp effectivly with that then go back to magic the gathering or something.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Foxcolt

[ArtosKincaid]

Quick recovery is gone in 1.2 for marauders... so that's at least one less topic for you to qq about.

 

Also you can

 

LEAP

INTERCEDE

FORCE PUSH

 

You're the only class in the game that gets two leaps..if you can't pvp effectivly with that then go back to magic the gathering or something.

 

Not according to the patch notes on the PTS forum. As it is I already had to level a character to 10 on the PTS to find out what they actually changes the values to on Heavy Handed (yay 7% damage nerf on the one meaningful AoE we get and a nerf to a 1 minute cooldown ability on top of it).

 

If you'd bothered to read the post, I pointed out the issue with Force Push as a concept vs. implementation but obviously you were too lazy. Leap is available to tank specced powertechs, and they still retain the ability to Grapple. Intercede is the one ability that Juggernauts get that isn't immediately or overridden by another class, except it does nothing to address the survivability issues that juggernauts have themselves.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ArtosKincaid

[IPaq]

I don't want everyone to have the same exact toolset. I would like the class I elected to play to have an actual tanking toolset and something unique and worthwhile that the other classes in this roll do not have. This does not currently exist.

 

Dog <-> Tail logic:

 

"something unique and worthwhile" -> that "something unique and worthwhile" make the other class being a better choice to PvP with.

 

If they change "your" class in an attempt to balance PvP, it will affect the people that choose the other ones, and possibly making your class FotM for PvPing.

 

And round, round, round we go.

 

My point stand:

 

You can't balance a PvP in a MMO's based on toon having different toolset. Either adapt, re-roll 1 of each or accept it.

[ArtosKincaid]

Dog <-> Tail logic:

 

"something unique and worthwhile" -> that "something unique and worthwhile" make the other class being a better choice to PvP with.

 

If they change "your" class in an attempt to balance PvP, it will affect the people that choose the other ones, and possibly making your class FotM for PvPing.

 

And round, round, round we go.

 

My point stand:

 

You can't balance a PvP in a MMO's based on toon having different toolset. Either adapt, re-roll 1 of each or accept it.

 

If they can't come up with something unique and worthwhile then they shouldn't be designing a game that's based around unique class abilities. You can try to put it on me and make me sound like I'm the problem, but the issue is that Bioware is utterly failing at game balance and even a basic rock/paper/scissors model.

 

I'll take responsibility for not guessing which class was going to be poorly balanced from the outset.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ArtosKincaid

[RayneDancer]

Worst tanks in PvP and PvE. This isn't going to change in 1.2 with the current changes as listed. Terrible AoE threat and damage in general. Less survivability than Powertech/Vanguard and Assassin/Shadow. A few gimmicks that make them somewhat viable in Huttball only.

 

This needs to change, immediately.

[thorizdin]

Fail troll is fail...if you can't PvP successfully on a Jug now AND in 1.2 then you ought not be PvP'ing. Given that you're in a PvP guild you ought to have good team work, which is where a Jug (and the other tanks) excel.

[dirtyv]

While I agree with the force push complaint... I feel that is the only real point made in the full length of that post.

 

Its fair to vent because the class can be frustrating at first, however, at the same time when used properly it can be very troublesome for the oposing team in all 3 WZ.

[ArtosKincaid]

Fail troll is fail...if you can't PvP successfully on a Jug now AND in 1.2 then you ought not be PvP'ing. Given that you're in a PvP guild you ought to have good team work, which is where a Jug (and the other tanks) excel.

 

Except the other tanks are better at doing anything tank related, and a marauder can do everything we can DPS-wise except better. Why would you pick to bring a juggernaut when you can bring either of the others?

[RAAAAAAAAAAGE]

I am no expert,in fact I suck somethign fiece at PvP.

 

But even an idiot like myself can beat most people 1v1 with my Immortal Spec Jugg. I remember once I took on 2 people and killed them both. Maybe the people you have been fighting are better skilled than the players I fight but from my exprience Juggernauts in Immortal spec are good at PvP.

 

As a tank jugg, I expect to die a LOT and I dont expect to kill people, but the way i see it... that is my job.

 

 

Edited for: Misread OP slightly

Edited April 3, 2012 by RAAAAAAAAAAGE

[thorizdin]

Except the other tanks are better at doing anything tank related, and a marauder can do everything we can DPS-wise except better. Why would you pick to bring a juggernaut when you can bring either of the others?

 

Specifically what can other tanks do better? Run the ball in Hutt Ball? Jugs are the best. Guard friendlies? All the same. Defensive cooldowns? Jugs have the best. PTs have grapple and Sins have stealth (and hybrids can do nice burst).

 

Maras aren't tanks, they don't have taunt, and they can't guard so there isn't much point in comparing them the Jugs.

[ArtosKincaid]

While I agree with the force push complaint... I feel that is the only real point made in the full length of that post.

 

Its fair to vent because the class can be frustrating at first, however, at the same time when used properly it can be very troublesome for the oposing team in all 3 WZ.

 

Very troublesome does not equate to effective, it equates to an annoyance. If your damage can be healed through and you can easily be killed because you're actually trying to do your job and guarding someone, then you shouldn't be included.

[IPaq]

If they can't come up with something unique and worthwhile then they shouldn't be designing a game that's based around unique class abilities. You can try to put it on me and make me sound like I'm the problem, but the issue is that Bioware is utterly failing at game balance and even a basic rock/paper/scissors model.

 

I'll take responsibility for not guessing which class was going to be poorly balanced from the outset.

 

I'll pass on listing the (now increasing) number of MMO's having the same issue.

 

TLDR: (In my opinion) You want to PvP in a competitive environment, go FPS. if you PvP in a MMO's environment, roll 1 of each and adapt. Heck, I've rolled 1 of each class (5 50's, almost 6 and the other 2 passed 25). And If the game stay interesting I may roll 1 of each AC if we cannot get Dual AC... but then I hope for free xfer or 16 toons per realm.

 

There are solutions out there.

 

But people sticking to PvPing using that 1 toon/class will always come here and try to force BW/EA hands into giving them the upper hand in a PvP environment.

 

PS: It is the same situation with 2 other MMO's I played on. Its always a matter of accepting the situation and dealing with it.

[thorizdin]

Worst tanks in PvP and PvE. This isn't going to change in 1.2 with the current changes as listed. Terrible AoE threat and damage in general. Less survivability than Powertech/Vanguard and Assassin/Shadow. A few gimmicks that make them somewhat viable in Huttball only.

 

This needs to change, immediately.

 

Spreading misinformation ought to be a bannable offense, but sadly this how misinformation gets propagated.

[Dracosz]

Juggernaut tanks are FINE in PvP and in PvE. The differences in PvE are nominal at best and overcome by gear for the most part. Shadows arguably have a slightly easier time, but there is NO boss in the game that an assassin/pt can tank that a juggernaut cannot just as well.

 

As for PvP, we have VERY strong stuns and peels, no tank can shut down a player more effectively than a juggernaut tank. We have more actual peels and better control than assassins as well as the capacity to provide very strong controlled burst if we gear/spec in that manner (see schwarz's thread on immortal DPS).

 

If you don't believe that we're not viable, I've got three videos up showcasing every juggernaut spec (Although I think I need to make a new rage one sometime).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQ7o0i72m4

(Rage, some misplaced vengeance clips)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rudTFKXGrmY

(Vengeance)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBSWB0mEyRg

(Immortal DPS)

 

There are numerous other videos out there (Morsexier and Bozim, if you can handle their backpedaling =P, Lucelia (who is awesome) and Excessive), The point is, the class is nowhere NEAR the dire straits you're claiming. If ANYTHING PTs are overtuned at the moment and are getting their due nerfbat in the patch.

 

If you wanted to do lots of damage, and only damage, you should have rolled a marauder because that is precisely what they were made for. Juggernauts CAN DPS and in PvE they are on par with every other DPS class in the game as vengeance, in PvP, you have to use the rest of your toolset which means form swapping to toss up guard as rage and most certainly using your taunts.

[wickedUOF]

We have a 1 min CD (speccable to 47 second) stun called Force Choke. If you spec tank obvioulsy you know it is improved by removing channeling. So why are you comparing Sabre ward to 1 min stuns other classes get?

IIRC 1.2 they are changing that talent to a tier lower so maybe interesting hybrid specs will emerge.

 

I find force push occasionally helping an opponent amusing as well as frustrating. Ahh well. ****'s funny bro. You're just a rager.

 

Saber ward is pretty sweet I think and used correctly I think is powerful. I really wish it was a 2 min cooldown though I admit. 2 seconds of 100% defence on melee/range followed by 10 seconds of 50% is pretty nice, and the 12 seconds of reduced force& tech damage is great too.

 

I have never played Immortal but to me it looks obvious that it would be mostly good at huttball leap/intercede/push/guard where the point isn't so much the fights as it is to get the ball down there. Do powertechs and assassins have the same mobility to leap as we do? No?

 

For voidstar and civil war I could see many situations where a tank (with a healer) could reduce the damage to his team and keep a healer up really well.

 

 

I thnk you're just expecting the wrong things from your class and it sounds like your pretty mid-tier on IQ. Only spec I've played really is Rage and I have always felt powerful at it doing high damage. I know that Bounty hunter tanks do **** damage from fighting them alot.

 

Assassins seem OP in PVP to me so I agree with you on that.

[ArtosKincaid]

Specifically what can other tanks do better? Run the ball in Hutt Ball? Jugs are the best. Guard friendlies? All the same. Defensive cooldowns? Jugs have the best. PTs have grapple and Sins have stealth (and hybrids can do nice burst).

 

Maras aren't tanks, they don't have taunt, and they can't guard so there isn't much point in comparing them the Jugs.

 

No, they really don't have the best defensive cooldowns. They have the highest numbers, which is compensated for by making them 3 minute cooldowns, which means they aren't up nearly enough to be truly relevant because there's no real death penalty in PvP.

 

I disagree that juggernauts are the best at running the ball in Huttball. Tank specced assassins are just as good if not better because of the CC immunity + force speed. They also don't have to be hybrid specced to do nice damage, they just have to put on DPS gear in tank spec. Considering defensive stats do nothing to reduce the majority of incoming damage in PvP, it's exceptionally foolish to wear the tank gear.

 

You're right, marauders don't have taunt or guard, but they can just kill everything that they would need to taunt anyway so why bring a tank when you can bring more DPS?

[ArtosKincaid]

Juggernaut tanks are FINE in PvP and in PvE. The differences in PvE are nominal at best and overcome by gear for the most part. Shadows arguably have a slightly easier time, but there is NO boss in the game that an assassin/pt can tank that a juggernaut cannot just as well.

 

As for PvP, we have VERY strong stuns and peels, no tank can shut down a player more effectively than a juggernaut tank. We have more actual peels and better control than assassins as well as the capacity to provide very strong controlled burst if we gear/spec in that manner (see schwarz's thread on immortal DPS).

 

If you don't believe that we're not viable, I've got three videos up showcasing every juggernaut spec (Although I think I need to make a new rage one sometime).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcQ7o0i72m4

(Rage, some misplaced vengeance clips)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rudTFKXGrmY

(Vengeance)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBSWB0mEyRg

(Immortal DPS)

 

There are numerous other videos out there (Morsexier and Bozim, if you can handle their backpedaling =P, Lucelia (who is awesome) and Excessive), The point is, the class is nowhere NEAR the dire straits you're claiming. If ANYTHING PTs are overtuned at the moment and are getting their due nerfbat in the patch.

 

If you wanted to do lots of damage, and only damage, you should have rolled a marauder because that is precisely what they were made for. Juggernauts CAN DPS and in PvE they are on par with every other DPS class in the game as vengeance, in PvP, you have to use the rest of your toolset which means form swapping to toss up guard as rage and most certainly using your taunts.

 

I've watched your videos. Let's see one of the entire match instead of just the shots where you have your relic and adrenals rolling and you can beat the hell out of someone. I've played the Immortal spec you listed and yes, it is good at peeling a single target. What do you do when you have 2? You do realize this spec is getting slapped with the nerf bat right?

[thorizdin]

Highest numbers = best

 

Between your cooldowns you also have your relic (I carry one defensive and one power) so I have three pure mitigation plus Endure Pain (combine it with the PvP health stim). Sins aren't bad, but they're not as good as Jugs in part because we have the best cooldowns and while you're correct there isn't a death penalty most of the time there damn sure is for ball carriers (provided you care about winning). No other class has the mobility & surviabilty that a tank specced Jug does.

 

Again, if you're losing to Maras you're doing it wrong and the reason to bring a Jug (any tank) is for team damage mitigation and to keep your healers alive. A Mara simply can't do that so comparing those classes is useless.