No to stat sticks!

[Tangenobi]

Just give sages saber throw and it should go a long way to at least satisfy those who want more use of their lighsaber

[ArlindoGMNeto]

Here is the Problem With that... The Sage IS a JEDI... And SHOULD have a Light Saber, Not something else... The Problem here is that The OP feels ALL Jedi should be melee capable, and thats it.

 

He wants A Jedi, With Force Powers, that Uses the Saber as Well, AND has a traditional single Saber style instead of the dual saber or double bladed style.

 

He Feels the Guardian has crappy animations which is why he chose a "single saber sage"... and is now disappointed at his limited saber use.

 

But again, The Saber IS a Sign Of the "Jedi completing his trials and becoming part of the order"... Besides that It serves a practical purpose, It has its defensive uses, as well as some minor offensive capabilities. The Sage needs His saber, Its Part of his defensive posture as well as providing a counter attack for melee opponents.

 

Thats the problem. The saber of a sage is only a stat stick. Deflecting saber shots? What a joke. I agree with you that the saber is the symbol of the jedi order and all, but ingame, in the hands of a sage? Its dead weight.

 

The problem is that the OP Would enjoy the "Play style" of a Shadow More... But is hung up on the Double blade the shadow uses as well as the misconception that somehow "shadows are rouge jedi"

 

I really like the playstyle of the sages, you got me wrong there. All i´m saying is that sometimes (especially during WZ) enemies close in on you and its hard to resist the temptation to say: "Ok, bring it on, i have a lightsaber here waiting for you!"

 

Yes, you have force attacks to disrupt them and escaping grim situations, but why deny a class that has such an iconic and "flashy" weapon (as someone above has said it) the means to MODERATELY enjoy melee combat? We´re also JEDI, for pete´s sake.

 

So The Only Real Answer to this is to remove the Saber restrictions on AC... But that really only works and makes sense if You Allow everyone to use a single saber, but DO NOT allow everyone to use a specialized saber... and If you do that, people will complain about Them being limited when others are not.

 

Yes, getting rid of saber restrictions would only be good for everyone that plays a jedi out there. Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "specialized sabers"?

Edited April 11, 2012 by ArlindoGMNeto

[Djspyder]

Yes, getting rid of saber restrictions would only be good for everyone that plays a jedi out there. Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "specialized sabers"?

 

By Specialized sabers i mean dual wield and Double blade....

 

 

If the Fix to Your issue would be To Allow a Shadow To Use a Normal Single blade single saber... Thats cool, He was trained as a Padawan to Only use That saber.... SO the option is Cool for him to use either... But a Jedi Guardian who has No training in the Double blade or the Saber forms used By double blade wielders Should not be able to pick one up and use it like a Pro.

 

Basically what I'm saying is, ANYONE should be able to use The Saber they began with were trained to use and forged, its a basic saber form...Regardless of specialization, But The AC specific sabers should stay AC specific... Anyone has "basic" saber training but not ALL are proficient in different saber forms and types. a Sent can use a single or dual wield, but he is not going to use a double blade, and the Opposite for a shadow.... sages and guardians stay as they are.

 

I think that Would open Up enough of a New option to satisfy You, and those who agree, while still making your AC choice have some Lasting Significant Noticeable meaning... And that seems to make the most sense lore wise.

 

 

As For Giving the Jedi Sage 'more melee viability" I disagree, This is A "Star Wars Game" and I understand How people want to be a "Saber Master" or at least proficient... but thats why there are 3 other classes to do it.... This is ALSO an MMO and certain Types of classes and roles are expected and needed to insure balance... Hence the "mage" type character.... He is a Force user first, thats How it works... I would be Ok with adding some more base damage to the sages Two saber attacks... or even adding a 3rd attack, but thats about the extent of i, and It should still only be used for those situations where its unavoidable... Its Not what the sage is designed for.

[ArlindoGMNeto]

By Specialized sabers i mean dual wield and Double blade....

 

 

If the Fix to Your issue would be To Allow a Shadow To Use a Normal Single blade single saber... Thats cool, He was trained as a Padawan to Only use That saber.... SO the option is Cool for him to use either... But a Jedi Guardian who has No training in the Double blade or the Saber forms used By double blade wielders Should not be able to pick one up and use it like a Pro.

 

Basically what I'm saying is, ANYONE should be able to use The Saber they began with were trained to use and forged, its a basic saber form...Regardless of specialization, But The AC specific sabers should stay AC specific... Anyone has "basic" saber training but not ALL are proficient in different saber forms and types. a Sent can use a single or dual wield, but he is not going to use a double blade, and the Opposite for a shadow.... sages and guardians stay as they are.

 

I think that Would open Up enough of a New option to satisfy You, and those who agree, while still making your AC choice have some Lasting Significant Noticeable meaning... And that seems to make the most sense lore wise.

 

 

As For Giving the Jedi Sage 'more melee viability" I disagree, This is A "Star Wars Game" and I understand How people want to be a "Saber Master" or at least proficient... but thats why there are 3 other classes to do it.... This is ALSO an MMO and certain Types of classes and roles are expected and needed to insure balance... Hence the "mage" type character.... He is a Force user first, thats How it works...

 

Totally disagree with the whole "mage" type idea. If they really "needed" a mage-like class, they shouldn´t have picked a jedi to implement it.

 

I would be Ok with adding some more base damage to the sages Two saber attacks... or even adding a 3rd attack, but thats about the extent of i, and It should still only be used for those situations where its unavoidable... Its Not what the sage is designed for.

 

Thats all we´re asking for: a few more melee skills to satisfy that itchy hand holding the lightsaber.

[Dyvim]

Just give sages saber throw and it should go a long way to at least satisfy those who want more use of their lighsaber

 

Yep a saber throw replacing project would be great for sages and shadows. And while they are at it, they could alleviate the dislike some players have for DBL bladed LSs by following canon and allowing the shadows to choose a 1 blade or 2 blade appearance. Keep the dbl hilt. All, ALL, double bladed users are shown fighting with one, and JUST ONE, lol, blade ignited at times. From Maul vs Qui Gonn, rd 1, to Malgus and Satele's Master in the very opening video of this game.

 

In fact, what I envision is a dynamic, on the fly shifting between one and two blades, as required by the animations themselves. Strike and double strike can be done with a regular LS, so they would be one bladed ani's...Shadow strike on the other hand requires two blades, so when you trigger that ability they would ignite. And of course if you wanted the two blades on at all times, things would work like they do now...

[Djspyder]

If the "mage Type" wasn't a Jedi/Sith Who would it be???.... In Star Wars Terms a "mage" would need to be a Force User... So making 1 out of 4 class choices fit that Role is a fair way to approach it.

 

There are Still 3 other Jedi/Sith Types that Fit a More traditional "star wars role" while the 4th Fits into a More "traditional MMO role" and yet still has basis in the "Star Wars Lore"

 

 

I'm not trying to Argue, I'm just saying I think the Sage Fits its role Perfect, and With the exception Of removing the "single saber class restriction" Or VERY SLIGHTLY buffing the two basic melee attacks(possibly adding a 3rd) I really Do not want to see any "Major" changes to the classes, Balancing The trees a little better Fine... But changing the entire feel of the class... No thanks.

[ArlindoGMNeto]

If the "mage Type" wasn't a Jedi/Sith Who would it be???.... In Star Wars Terms a "mage" would need to be a Force User... So making 1 out of 4 class choices fit that Role is a fair way to approach it.

 

Which begs the question: do we really NEEDED a mage-like class in the first place?

 

There are Still 3 other Jedi/Sith Types that Fit a More traditional "star wars role" while the 4th Fits into a More "traditional MMO role" and yet still has basis in the "Star Wars Lore"

 

 

I'm not trying to Argue, I'm just saying I think the Sage Fits its role Perfect, and With the exception Of removing the "single saber class restriction" Or VERY SLIGHTLY buffing the two basic melee attacks(possibly adding a 3rd) I really Do not want to see any "Major" changes to the classes, Balancing The trees a little better Fine... But changing the entire feel of the class... No thanks.

 

Well, of course everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and i respect yours. I just feel frustrated because BW had a big oportunity to make something truly new and unique and instead went with the "holy trinity" thing that has been done through the years.

Edited April 11, 2012 by ArlindoGMNeto

[Fyros-Saphera]

I might have missed something, didn't want to read through all the pages, but I feel I understand how others seem to feel. I personally don't want additional melee abilities to my sage, but I do want my willpower to be added to the melee abilities I do have. I'm still a consular after all, I don't know why they removed the willpower to melee for becoming a sage.

 

I posted in another thread before I saw this one, and giving the willpower bonus to sage melee would not break the class. Only the seer sages would really use them, assuming they don't get any skills to increase the effectiveness of their force attacks, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

[Djspyder]

Well... I Don't Know If the Game "Needed" a Mage like Class... But I'm sure many would have Been upset had it been left out... I'm also not Sure How a "Jedi Healer" would work if Not sticking at least somewhat to a "mage formula" .... And The game DOES need healers.

 

Now after thinking about it, I completely understand where You're coming from, or at least I think I do now... and I can even see some compromises that would appeal to you... I just don't want to see any "Major" changes to the class, it feels fine to me, and to many others... if there is some middle ground like getting rid of some restrictions, and adding a melee damage boost(a slight one at least, or one based on willpower) Would be fine... as long as the over all dynamic of the class isn't completely changed.

[Djspyder]

Well, of course everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and i respect yours. I just feel frustrated because BW had a big oportunity to make something truly new and unique and instead went with the "holy trinity" thing that has been done through the years.

 

Oh and this... Yeah I get this,... A LOT actually, But sadly, MMOs that "Break the mold"... usually die out, its sad, But unfortunately Its true, Until Something Epic Comes by and we finally get a "WoW killer"... having a Good "WoW competitor" is going to have to be enough.

 

The Few MMOs I've "Truly enjoyed" were NOT by any means a typical WoW clone, but a Few have also been shut down, MXO was unique in many ways and SOE killed that, They Killed SWG as well, and a few others but not to rant I won't go there now...

 

Just saying I agree, it would Be nice to see a Successful MMO that broke the mold and Thrived, with a lasting community. And While SWTOR may not Stray Far from the "traditional formula" I think it does a good job at being a fun game, and does justice to the genre wjile having its own uniqueness, that makes it distinctly SWTOR.

[Assam]

What is it about the Telekinetic type of Sage that screams anything other than "make sure my enemy is nowhere near me when attacking"? (I'm not talking about healers, that is a different class but has its reasons why it is ranged too - I'm soley concentrating on damage dealing like a melee class would)

 

You have ranged powers which hurl many things or you can target whole groups, if you plonk Force Potency on, from nearly 35 metres away. You have stuns and lifts to stop enemies in their tracks, you have Force Speed to get the heck away from your enemies, Force Slow to stop them chasing after you so quickly, with Telekinetic Throw to slow them down even more. If they do get too close, blam, Force Wave sends them sprawling off in the air for you to get the hell away from them or have a bit of time to heal yourself before legging it away.

 

To reduce damage taken you have your nice squishy armour and the Force Armour, which you can if you set it up properly, can blind your enemies should they get too close, so you can get better distance away from them.

 

As someone has correctly pointed out, you use your saber for defence, not attack - you deflect blaster bolts, deflect melee weapons for long enough for you to get the hell away!

 

What in the name of Yoda would then inspire you to want to get anywhere NEAR your enemy to go and bash it over the head with your saber repeatedly after all that? Are the powers you've been given not enough? I've recently got some better armour and crystals etc for my saber - I can do some serious damage now from afar, my Force skills are getting better, some day I'll have some better stuff coming if I can complete hard modes etc

 

The only reason I see Bioware gave this ranged caster a couple of melee moves is if you have your enemy down to bad health but can't, for some reason, use the big powers, your trusty but minor damage saber skills can possibly get you out of a mess if you are lucky. But it is a last resort only.

 

How many times does it need repeating that Sages are NOT melee combat classes for a good reason? Everything about the class is to do with distance, being away from your enemy - that is what an MMO ranged caster is designed for! What use more combat would give it would only make it over-powered or in need of better armour to make it more durable in combat - but we already have those classes - so why bother?

 

You can still look cool with your saber by your side but really, you are fighting a losing battle if you think changing a ranged caster into a better melee fighter is a good idea.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Assam

[ArlindoGMNeto]

You can still look cool with your saber by your side but really, you are fighting a losing battle if you think changing a ranged caster into a better melee fighter is a good idea.

 

That´s the point. We want more than just "look cool with a saber by our side".

 

It´s an epic weapon and it´s MEANT to be used, regardless if its in the hands of a "ranged caster" (i find it outrageous to define a jedi this way, but whatever) or if its in the hands of my son´s kitten.

 

Since we have it, we might as well damn USE IT.

 

Then again, your opinion is noted.

Edited April 11, 2012 by ArlindoGMNeto

[ArlindoGMNeto]

Oh and this... Yeah I get this,... A LOT actually, But sadly, MMOs that "Break the mold"... usually die out, its sad, But unfortunately Its true, Until Something Epic Comes by and we finally get a "WoW killer"... having a Good "WoW competitor" is going to have to be enough.

 

The Few MMOs I've "Truly enjoyed" were NOT by any means a typical WoW clone, but a Few have also been shut down, MXO was unique in many ways and SOE killed that, They Killed SWG as well, and a few others but not to rant I won't go there now...

 

Just saying I agree, it would Be nice to see a Successful MMO that broke the mold and Thrived, with a lasting community. And While SWTOR may not Stray Far from the "traditional formula" I think it does a good job at being a fun game, and does justice to the genre wjile having its own uniqueness, that makes it distinctly SWTOR.

 

Yeah, matrix online was something... i miss it as well, along with my favorite and also dead now, Tabula Rasa. (R.I.P.)

[yoInfinity]

Just have a saber throw replace project...

[Assam]

Just have a saber throw replace project...

 

What is wrong with Force Project? Rock/R2 robot/Floor etc in the face to the enemy is rather cool isn't it?

 

No doubt saber hurling is also a worthy thing to be mucking around with, I'm perfectly happy for the Knights to be able to do it - possibly even Sages... though Force Push might be more funny, but I rather like the idea of the Jedi recycling old robots or flooring to be used in the defence of the galaxy!

[Vayl]

The circular reasoning is strong with this one.

 

You say that according to the movies (lore) ALL Jedi need to be proficient lightsaber users.

 

We tell you (many great examples in previous posts) of many examples of Jedi that hardly, if ever used their lightsabers, and were the picture perfect lore basis for the Sage.

 

You tell us that you don't care about lore.

 

lolwut?

[Edoniltebaun]

Just have a saber throw replace project...

 

I disagree, we don't need an alternative Project that still costs the force resource to use.

 

Give us a standard, white damage ranged attack in addition to Single Strike that does the same damage. You know, something in the same realm as Hammer Shot and Flurry of Bolts.

 

As a sage, I don't want anything close enough to hit me in the first place.

 

Sages are the only ranged class at the moment that doesn't have a white damage basic ranged attack that doesn't cost resources.

[Mysticjbyrd]

The circular reasoning is strong with this one.

 

You say that according to the movies (lore) ALL Jedi need to be proficient lightsaber users.

 

We tell you (many great examples in previous posts) of many examples of Jedi that hardly, if ever used their lightsabers, and were the picture perfect lore basis for the Sage.

 

You tell us that you don't care about lore.

 

lolwut?

 

I read the last 5 pages and I can't see any examples.

 

The only thing I saw was some dude claiming that consulars existed, but they were all non-combatants. Which is a pretty shockingly stupid statement.

[Djspyder]

I read the last 5 pages and I can't see any examples.

 

The only thing I saw was some dude claiming that consulars existed, but they were all non-combatants. Which is a pretty shockingly stupid statement.

 

Actually Obi-wan "sneaking around" was an example Of Jedi's avoiding combat,

 

The Jedi Librarians was another example, Of Jedi who are not warriors.

 

There Are Jedi Diplomats as well...

 

Yoda Who Was a Great Lightsaber master, Often Would use the Force Rather than drawing his blade, In fact in the movies He uses The force A LOT more then his blade, with the exception of two battles... and even in those he used the force to throw projectiles, used his saber to Deflect "force lightning" and Really Only used The Saber Offensively While fighting Dooku In the 2nd prequel. SO in 6 films he Had ONE "real saber battle"

 

In the Movies they even go so Far as to Specifically Call people Knights... SO clearly there are different Ranks/Jobs within the Jedi Order.

 

Going Beyond the 6 films There are many examples Of Jedi "consular" in the Animated series, Books, Games, the entire EU...

 

There are Also examples Of Sith Being Force users primarily and Not being great Saber fighters... Some Sith did not even use a saber... so there are examples In both the Films and The EU.

 

Oh and NOONE ever said the Jedi Consular are "non-combatants" they just said they use the force as their primary weapon as opposed to their saber.

 

The Other Argument was that You Follow the Story of "Jedi Knights" in the Movies... which is True Since Every "main Jedi" you follow has the Rank of Night... OR Eventually "master"... And those are all "Warriors" and "heroes" in the films. That Does Not actually exclude the possibility of the other Jedi Jobs, that exist in the EU and Animated series. And Lets Remember THIS game is Based On the Timeline/Lore Of KOTOR, so Even if YOU don't consider that official "Star Wars Cannon" That is what the Lore of this game is based on.

 

 

Having Said all that, The Lore Of the Game Itself supports Jedi Not all being Warriors, and the Game mechanic works fine, I understand Why the OP wants some changes made, and I can see where there "Could" be a "fair compromise" for people who feel like he does... But the consular and more specifically the "Sage" has a purpose, a function and role in the game, that makes sense in Both MMO terms and Lore-wise and outside of balancing issues and slight tweaks to the class(or any class for that matter) is Probably not the best idea.

[ArlindoGMNeto]

The circular reasoning is strong with this one.

 

You say that according to the movies (lore) ALL Jedi need to be proficient lightsaber users.

 

We tell you (many great examples in previous posts) of many examples of Jedi that hardly, if ever used their lightsabers, and were the picture perfect lore basis for the Sage.

 

You tell us that you don't care about lore.

 

lolwut?

 

I´ll be honest with you man, im a lil lazy to check the context in which i might have said that i dont care about lore.

 

But probably what i meant was that i´d rather see a game mechanic that disagrees with lore but its FUN to play, than implementing a perfect lore based one that it´s NOT fun.(at least for some people, like me).

 

Many people have said that acording to the lore (not the movies, but whatever) there were jedi that rarely used, and (correct me if im wrong) some of them that didnt even HAD one.

 

Now, i ask: is it fun to put a nice, flashy, and cool lightsaber in the hands of a jedi and say: "Hey man, you can´t use that, unless it´s for joking around pretending like you´re doing any damage."

 

Then again, i wish there were some of those "non saber jedi" in the movies. That way i could feel less "old school".

[Vorian-Rob]

You are kind of describing a shadow. I seriously doubt the devs will make melee changes to sages when that variant already exists in shadows...

 

Sages dont get any more saber skills after lvl 1 because they are either ranged dps or ranged healing...period. But I do completely agree that the nonstop rock throwing is ridiculous.

 

One suggestion I like is to replace chunk a clunker (project) with a saber throw...sure knights get it in the 30s...but the only jedi to throw a saber in the movies is Yoda, clearly a consular. And what makes more sense for a jedi to throw? Magically conjured rocks (especially cute when you in a spaceship) or that lightsaber in your hand that by the way should be able to cut through about anything...seems obvious to me.

 

You could also get rid of chunk a clunkers damage delay and kill two birds with one animation replacement...

 

My issue with the sabre throw is quite simple. Look at the Shadow's Clairvoyant Strike. He throws his sabre from his hand and it spins twice on the target and returns to his hand. The typical attack rotation for the Shadow is Clairvoyant Strike -> Clairvoyant Strike -> Project (rinse and repeat until exit strategy procs). If you were to replace Project with Sabre Throw you would take away the little bit of variation he has in his attack animations as all of his attacks would be a Thrown Sabre. While I agree that Project and the Darkside equivalent need the same animation and damage time, they should still think about the way things fit together. Maybe if they replaced Project with a shockwave of sorts like the Sith Warriors Scream technique that would be cool, but not a Sabre throw.

[Assam]

I´ll be honest with you man, im a lil lazy to check the context in which i might have said that i dont care about lore.

 

But probably what i meant was that i´d rather see a game mechanic that disagrees with lore but its FUN to play, than implementing a perfect lore based one that it´s NOT fun.(at least for some people, like me).

 

Many people have said that acording to the lore (not the movies, but whatever) there were jedi that rarely used, and (correct me if im wrong) some of them that didnt even HAD one.

 

Now, i ask: is it fun to put a nice, flashy, and cool lightsaber in the hands of a jedi and say: "Hey man, you can´t use that, unless it´s for joking around pretending like you´re doing any damage."

 

Then again, i wish there were some of those "non saber jedi" in the movies. That way i could feel less "old school".

 

So you'd be fine if you saw a non saber weilding Jedi in the movies, but not in the game as it is?

 

Did you see Yoda pick one up in Empire Strikes Back whilst he was teaching Luke? If we hadn't had the other films, you could say Yoda, in his old school ways, never picked up a saber to be a Jedi. Just something I'd throw in there.

 

As for pretending you are doing damage, I will do a quick test tonight and tell you what damage I can do with Double Strike - last time I checked it was not that bad but I can't remember the total, so will get back to you on that.

[Djspyder]

My issue with the sabre throw is quite simple. Look at the Shadow's Clairvoyant Strike. He throws his sabre from his hand and it spins twice on the target and returns to his hand. The typical attack rotation for the Shadow is Clairvoyant Strike -> Clairvoyant Strike -> Project (rinse and repeat until exit strategy procs). If you were to replace Project with Sabre Throw you would take away the little bit of variation he has in his attack animations as all of his attacks would be a Thrown Sabre. While I agree that Project and the Darkside equivalent need the same animation and damage time, they should still think about the way things fit together. Maybe if they replaced Project with a shockwave of sorts like the Sith Warriors Scream technique that would be cool, but not a Sabre throw.

 

I Think if they were going to give sages a "Saber Throw Type move", They should Just Give the Sage a New move, Replacing Project would be a bad move...

 

On a Side note Am I the only one who thinks they got the names backward On project and Telekinetic Throw, I mean It just seems Like Projecting the Dust, Rocks, Ground In front of you should be the Move for "Project" and Throwing what ever You Have Like Heavy Stones, Droids etc... Should be Telekinetic Throw, since your Throwing a single object... But anyway I digress...

 

The point Is if The sages were Going to get a "Saber Throw Type" ability it should be something new, That way It does Not replace an existing move Shared By ALL counselors and It would be a sage specific "saber move"... which would Help Dispel the feeling that the Saber is more of a prop then a weapon(which i don't actually feel like)...

 

Then again With 1.2 Launching In just a few hours, lets see what the class feels like after the changes we already know are coming.

[Djspyder]

As for pretending you are doing damage, I will do a quick test tonight and tell you what damage I can do with Double Strike - last time I checked it was not that bad but I can't remember the total, so will get back to you on that.

 

I think Today I did Something Like 400+Dmg combined with Both hits, at lvl 32, with a lvl 31 Purple Advanced Hilt resolve hilt On the saber...

 

Not sure the exact number, I think they hit for something like 230ish each, In either case it was Enough to Finish off the enemy Who got just a little too close to me. Or maybe It was Only 175 Dmg per hit... But it wasn't completely useless...

[Assam]

I think Today I did Something Like 400+Dmg combined with Both hits, at lvl 32, with a lvl 31 Purple Advanced Hilt resolve hilt On the saber...

 

Not sure the exact number, I think they hit for something like 230ish each, In either case it was Enough to Finish off the enemy Who got just a little too close to me. Or maybe It was Only 175 Dmg per hit... But it wasn't completely useless...

 

I've got a Level 50 character with purple level 50 Mods in it and the best hilt my creds could buy (Hilt 23 or something) and also wearing a few bits of Collomi gear or whatever it is called with lots of purple mods and armour in the other bits that are not - I should be able to do some good damage - we shall see.

 

Your numbers sound about right though, that is good damage for a character that is not supposed to be using a saber that much.