Pyrotech - PT is WAY better than Merc...WHY?!

[Barberiann]

Can someone please explain to me why Bioware thought that this was going to be a fair and even tree shared between both Advanced Classes? The Pyrotech tree is quite similar between both AC's, except for the lower Tier talents in Pyrotech and the other optional talents you can spend outside the 31+ in Pyro. I'll break down why I think PT is the MUCH better option below (I play a Merc )

 

Powertech Tier 1 Pyrotech Talents:

1) Flame Burst has a 100% chance to trigger Combusitlbe Gas Cylindar

2) Increases the damage done by Rocket Punch by 8%

 

Summary: Talents that provide a great DPS boost to a main abilitiy, while also providing extra utility to 100% proc our cylindar that this tree is built around

 

Mercenary Tier 1 Talents:

1) Increases ranged and tech accuracy by 3% (WHO CARES ABOUT ACCURACY)

2) Increases Alacrity by 4%

 

Summary: Talents are worthless fillers that only help out the Arsenal and Bodyguard talent trees.

 

TL,DR: The Tier 1 Pyrotech talents for Mercenaries need to be relooked at to make us more competitive with our PowerTech AC. I'm thinking about re-rolling a PT for the pure fact that they have MANY more PvP centered abilities that the Mercenary does not.

 

/end rant

Edited March 28, 2012 by Barberiann

[Baarabas]

Can someone please explain to me why Bioware thought that this was going to be a fair and even tree shared between both Advanced Classes? The Pyrotech tree is quite similar between both AC's, except for the lower Tier talents in Pyrotech and the other optional talents you can spend outside the 31+ in Pyro. I'll break down why I think PT is the MUCH better option below (I play a Merc )

 

Powertech Tier 1 Pyrotech Talents:

1) Flame Burst has a 100% chance to trigger Combusitlbe Gas Cylindar

2) Increases the damage done by Rocket Punch by 8%

 

Summary: Talents that provide a great DPS boost to a main abilitiy, while also providing extra utility to 100% proc our cylindar that this tree is built around

 

Mercenary Tier 1 Talents:

1) Increases ranged and tech accuracy by 3% (WHO CARES ABOUT ACCURACY)

2) Increases Alacrity by 4%

 

Summary: Talents are worthless fillers that only help out the Arsenal and Bodyguard talent trees.

 

TL,DR: The Tier 1 Pyrotech talents for Mercenaries need to be relooked at to make us more competitive with our PowerTech AC. I'm thinking about re-rolling a PT for the pure fact that they have MANY more PvP centered abilities that the Mercenary does not.

 

/end rant

 

Dont forget about the talents available outside the 31 Pyro tree. Tier 1:

 

Prototype

1)Puncture - Rail ignores 60% of Targets Armor

2)Electro Surge - 10 sec redux on Electro Darts CD

3)Prototype Burn Enhancers - Increase all Crits on fire effects by 6%

4)Rail loaders - Rails damage increased by 6%

5)Intimidation - Increase the damage of all fire effects by 6%

 

Summary: Any of these skills would be welcomed by Pyros in the Merc tree

 

It goes well beyond Advanced skill tree abilities though:

 

I. Heal vs. Shield

 

It sounds good on paper that having self heals = more survivability. It just not the case. Any Merc, besides bodyguard, who tries to heal in combat is healing in futility. This channeled heal system, especially with an interrupt and pushback system in place, makes healing during combat exchange too difficult to be worth it. You can stand there channeling your heal for 1 to 2 seconds while taking damage, even if you dont suffer pushback, you will only heal for around the amount of damage you just took channeling. So its kind of moot except that you now have more heat generated.

 

Most mercs wait until combat exchange is over and then attempt to heal (usually behind LoS or on the run). Is this an advantage? Well in a few seconds combat aggro is removed and universal heal becomes available, which is quicker, uses no heat, and regenerate heat. I'll let you decide. If healing were instant (or channeled in less time) then it would prove more efficient.

 

After playing both, I would rather have a shield generator in my offhand. The active chance to shield damage during combat exchange is more efficient than a heal that is inefficient to use during combat exchange.

 

Not to mention that in 1.2 our offhand weapon is going to suck much more than it does now.

 

II. Ranged vs. Melee

 

I have said on more than one occasion, this game is geared toward melee. Why? It is universally understood that Ranged has the advantage over Melee (gun > knife). So in an MMO, to achieve balance, designers level the playing field by placing certain perameters in place:

 

1) Combat speed - having a combat speed is anti-kiting.

2) Crowd Control - Designers usualy give CCs 2 or 3 - 1 Melee over Ranged.

3) Snare/Root breakers - Designers usualy give breakers 2 or 3 - 1 Melee over Ranged.

4) Gap Closers - Burst run, force leap, grapple, ect. 90% melee have these and ranged do not.

5) Defense - Harder targets to absorb more damage when you cant return it yet.

6) Channeling - Melee retain instant cast abilities, while ranged are subject to channeling on certain abilities.

7) Pushback - Pushback suffered on channeled abilities (ranged), and interrupts; advantage goes to melee.

 

SWTOR didnt just implement a few of these, they gave them all. Thus catering to melee over ranged. Now, without blowing whistles and flares, melee has advantage over ranged.

 

Prototype Pyrotech is melee, while Merc Pyro is Ranged. PT Pyro thus retains all melee advantages over Merc.

[sithterror]

**SPOILER**

IMO

 

I agree with both of your posts....i like the more in depth thought of Barabbas tho.

 

I. Heal vs. Shield

Seldom do i see hybrids that have taken enough heals to be a real off-healer and have enough talents to do any damage better than average. Face it, most of your dps comes from the tier 4-6 talents and is thus wasted on getting halfway heals.

The shield comes in 2 flavors for me. Energy sheild and off hand shield generator. with energy rebounder we get to both take less damage and get a chance to use the shield rather quickly again. Yet, i get to use the off hand shield to get near 25% chance to shield an attack with 25% absoprtion that you Merc's dont. And my armor is enough to get 30% reduction further on top of it. Then i can use the Relics for shield chance and defense chance to allow me to use energy shield again after the 90sec CD goes round. Furhtermore, with my Bio-chem i can use heal stims better than most have available and also the Reflex stims to increase my stats above the normal player.

In the end the opff hand use is what tips the shield vs heal to my favor....less damage means i dps longer with out using heat to heal!!!

 

II. Ranged vs. Melee

1) Combat speed - having a combat speed is anti-kiting.

2) Crowd Control - Designers usualy give CCs 2 or 3 - 1 Melee over Ranged.

3) Snare/Root breakers - Designers usualy give breakers 2 or 3 - 1 Melee over Ranged.

4) Gap Closers - Burst run, force leap, grapple, ect. 90% melee have these and ranged do not.

5) Defense - Harder targets to absorb more damage when you cant return it yet.

6) Channeling - Melee retain instant cast abilities, while ranged are subject to channeling on certain abilities.

7) Pushback - Pushback suffered on channeled abilities (ranged), and interrupts; advantage goes to melee.

1) CC:

Powertechs do get the nice movement speed boosts! Pneumatic boots and Hydraulic Overrides....off chance of getting a Warrior predation helps too.

2) Lets see: Powertech wins

Grapple, Jet Charge, Electro-Dart, Quell vs Mercs Electro-Dart. **we know now that the devs made MErc to have no interrupts by design** Toss in, making you move to avoid damage thus ruining your channel/heal, flame thrower, Death from above and Immolate. While these arent true interrupts....i do see players stop and move thus being a pseudo intterupt.

3) Snare-Root:

2 sec roots from Grapple and Jet Charge = free 2 sec damage and possible waste of 'break-free' ability.

4) Gap Closers:

Same Grapple and Jet Charge. with these having a 30 sec use from talents it is pretty handy.

5) Defense:

My off hand gives me the 25% chance to mitigate 25% more damage than mercs can ever do.....plus we get a tlaent to increae armor by 16% which helps mitigate even more.

6) Channels:

Death from Above and Flame Thrower are the only 2 and those are so situational...the rest of my Powertech abilities allows me to always be mobile without having to stop and let someone close the gap or get farther away from me.

7) Pushback:

Only have to worry about Unload of D.F.A being pushed and generally DFA is to situational where you can get away the whole channel and Unload is gr8 for those trying to run from you since they cant attack to stop it and then grapple to bring you back in.

 

Plus in 1.2 the Talent Hired Muscle is getting reduced so you Merc's lose out on Crit chance while none of the PT talents are being reduced (for example Burn Enhancer).

In the end Power tech gets much nicer CC and gap closers to keep range from being ranged and the ability to use a shield generator gives us a big edge over damage taken vs you Merc's. Also, we get better lower tier talents to enhance all of our fire effects, CC and Defenses where you Merc's get Diddily and Squat!

[SneakyErvin]

PT-pyro sacrifice a big thing compared to mercs, they MUST get within 10 meters to be effective. They also have trade off talents in the non pyro trees.

 

PT gets extra fire damge, extra RS damage, extra fire crit and 60% armor pen on RS.

 

Merc gets extra PS/missile damage, extra aim, extra crit (6% on everything, not just fire).

 

The extra damage to rocket punch is traded in for extra damage to PS and rockets in the arsenal tree instead. PS also gets a bonus damage vs burning targets, instead of RP for PTs.

 

A merc doesnt have to get in melee range at all as pyro, everything you deal damage with is at 30 meters range. A PT must stay within 10 meters to "kite" the enemy, still the enemy in most cases will also have a 10 meter attack or 10 meter snare, so kiting will never be optimal using FB. If you really need to kite as a PT you will have to revert to the merc way.

 

Rapid shots, IM, RS and TD, only difference is. The merc can stop and get off a PS or two during a stun aswell as the ability to knock people back. And even have a shot at proccing a free RS with either a PS or just Unload.

 

PT pyro doesnt have more survivabilty than a merc either. They have the shield, thats it. No heals, and no other mitigation.

 

The two specs play completely different from eachother, even though its the same tree. PT wants to get in melee range for their instant FB. Mercs want to stay at range.

 

Nothing would justify giving mercs a 100% chance to proc CGC.

 

And regarding melee being more favored by BW... LOL!

[Baarabas]

Good point about Hired Muscle and Energy Rebounder.

 

PT Pyro can sustain less damage, while taking tamage, to reduce CD on Shields (Energy Rebounder) due to off hand shield generator. End result, while Merc pyro will have a sliver of health by the time shields become available again, PT Pyro will have significantl;y more (thus making it even worth activating shields again).

 

Hired muscle was one of our few options we had from Tier I abilities to choose from, compared (as OP stated) to PT many tier I abilities. Now its nerfed in addition to Powershot.

 

Did Flameburst or Rocket punch get a 10% damage redux and longer CD?

[SneakyErvin]

@Sithterror: Please stay on subject which is pyro vs pyro.

 

You are mixing all specs into one blurry answer. There are way too many things you compare that shouldnt be there regarding the OP subject.

 

1. OK... Advanced prototype only, not usable with CGC. So not pyro related.

 

2. Electrodart plus a real cc for mercs (conc missile), along with jet boost if you want to use the charge/grapple argument, they arent CCs. Immolate not a pyro skill and d.f.o not stop and cast ***? O.o

 

3. No and... no. Neither available to pyro, so not a pyro subject.

 

4. Grapple, sure, but jet boost... so its even. Merc want to be at range, PT no. Charge still tank spec only so not available to pyro.

 

5. Both you and Barrabas need to learn how things work. CGC+pyro spec = no off hand shield. You MUST use IGC to benefit from the shield. If you dont believe me, try it out and check your character sheet. 25% block chance as pyro, never ever going to happen, plus its utter trash in PvP. You can block ranged and melee attacks. That means attacks labeled as melee or ranged in the skill book. Thats 3 abilites from a merc pyro, RS, PS and rapid shot. Rest are tech.

 

6. Channels, yep not much there. Also @Barrabas, giving melee channels or cast times with 4-10 meters range? Are you kidding me? Oh wait they have that, its called force lightning, flamer thrower, ravage and so on.

 

7. @ Barrabas, it effects both melee channels and ranged channels, why else would BW add talents to melee classes that reduce or make them immune to pushback on their channel spells? Why add a PT-AP skill buff that makes flamethrower immune to pushbacks and interrupts in patch 1.2?

 

You two need to read up on things before making other inaccurate posts. No wonder people scream for nerfs on the forums.

Edited March 29, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[sithterror]

PT-pyro sacrifice a big thing compared to mercs, they MUST get within 10 meters to be effective. They also have trade off talents in the non pyro trees.

I am not disagreeing on this point. it plays into the mechanics of the AC. Abilities all ready mentioned above make the ability to stay within said 10m is favored to PT! BW does love melee in this regard, not broad spectrum i.e. Sorcs

 

PT gets extra fire damge, extra RS damage, extra fire crit and 60% armor pen on RS.

Merc gets extra PS/missile damage, extra aim, extra crit (6% on everything, not just fire).

Depending on the build yes most is true......except PT atm has 90% RS armor ignore...not sure about PTS havent been there yet. You overlooked another 3% tech crit and puts PT with 6% total Tech crit equalling Merc, so that gives the 6% to fire crit a bigger advantage especially in 10m range. PT has more CC and can interrupt most TM spam where as the PT doesnt have chances for interrupts!!

 

The extra damage to rocket punch is traded in for extra damage to PS and rockets in the arsenal tree instead. PS also gets a bonus damage vs burning targets, instead of RP for PTs.

Yes if you are comparing Merc-Arsenal too PT-Pyro. Can add in PT Extra damage on RS vs Merc's extra 9% Aim. Otherwise it is part of the AC tradeoff which still favors PT run'n'gun to Mercs having to setup then do something then move repeat process.

 

A merc doesnt have to get in melee range at all as pyro, everything you deal damage with is at 30 meters range. A PT must stay within 10 meters to "kite" the enemy, still the enemy in most cases will also have a 10 meter attack or 10 meter snare, so kiting will never be optimal using FB. If you really need to kite as a PT you will have to revert to the merc way.

Both have 50% slows due to gas procs, but kiting is easy when you have access to either Grapple and/or Jet charge. Plus, your TM spam needs 1.5 sec of not moving to fire all the while i am moving to or from you....grapple/charge to bring you (or me) back to 10m. Favor for PT (especially with stuns for 3 sec on Grapple/Charge)

 

Rapid shots, IM, RS and TD, only difference is. The merc can stop and get off a PS or two during a stun as well as the ability to knock people back. And even have a shot at proccing a free RS with either a PS or just Unload.

Again i have the same break free as you.....and Merc's only get 1. I get 2 stuns, 2 30 sec ways to close 30m gaps and an interrupt on a very very short CD. your blowback is just that blows, and your dart is just as long to use as mine (unless talent specc'd of course)

 

PT pyro doesnt have more survivabilty than a merc either. They have the shield, thats it. No heals, and no other mitigation.

How is that not survivability then?? I have access to the same pvp stims and player stim/heals as a Merc does, but i get to mitigate about 30% of your time damage 20-30% of the time in a fight without using energy barrier or relics. While that does not mean i take 25% less damage constantly, it is consistent enough to save me 1000's of HP vs you not being able too AT ALL.....seems like survivability to me! you heal for crap as heavy spec dps and does not out heal any of my dps attacks. you spec into heals you lsoe dps and i can still interrupt your craptastic heals and take less damage from the sub-par dps....SURVIVABILITY!! Favor to the PT!

 

The two specs play completely different from eachother, even though its the same tree. PT wants to get in melee range for their instant FB. Mercs want to stay at range.

I am not trying to contest this as it makes the player want to be 1 AC or the other. However, if Merc was able to use the Shield genrator in place of a 'brand-X' generator....it would make up for some of the CC loss a Merc suffers with.

Is that going agaisnt the Game design by doing this?

Is this conversation really nothing more than who is right/wrong?

Does this really mean we are helping others understand what AC to really play depending on their whim?

 

Nothing would justify giving mercs a 100% chance to proc CGC.

And regarding melee being more favored by BW... LOL!

Call me stubborn, but I still say PT > Merc with the right build and playstyle but even so on paper. I play PT and I APPROVE this message!

[sithterror]

@ Sneaky

 

I did prolly mix 1 or 2 hybrid specs into my original post. it all gets so confused and fused up in meh brain sometimes.

 

1. While not true Pyro related yes, you are making the point and hybrid AP-Pyro is more of a wierd choice than FOTM or proven build. /conceed

 

2. i cant contend that the 3 sec stun isnt considered CC when it does apply itself wether you used determination or not. it stops you, gives me time, etc.. = CC in my book. i only brought up DFA and Immolate as Pseudo-CC 'cause i see players stop casting/channeling to move out the area. yes, i admitted it isnt True-CC.

 

3. You are right. those 2 come from heavy Tank or iron-fist builds.

 

4. iron-fist can pull it off but the pyro on pyro puts you more into the right.

 

5. I use a CGC and shield gen and some def armor and get 19% dodge chance, 23% shield chance and 27% absorb and do fine in PvP like this....as a PT-Pyro.

Never meant it to come offas 25% chance to dodge out right. You do hit on a good point with Tech not being covered by chances to be sheilded, it slipped my mind, but still affects half of your skills!

 

6. uh uh ahhh. force lightning isnt a pyro skill and neither is ravage. we both get flamethrower....still. you called like 1 out of 9 melee abilities that use a channel cast buidl up. debateable due to points of view.

 

7. Think this arguement goes to show that even with your pushback you still get pushed back or interrupted where as a PT doesnt.

 

Inaccurate hardly. Read up sure do when i get a chance. Am i as well versed as you proclaim to be maybe not....this is the internet and we all ahve ninja skills.

People scream for nerfs becuase they dont fully understand....posts like these are meant to debate and challenge points of view with facts not asumptions due to time in game.....or unless you're a dev.

[rotatorkuf]

i agree with most of these posts

 

generally, on paper and most of the time in real world powertech pyro > merc pyro, by miles

 

simply because of better burst, higher chance to proc combustible cylinder and strong rail shot

 

however, i as a merc, don't usually have a problem killing most other classes...

 

1v1 is another story, mercs get owned by most melee classes for the simple fact that kiting in this game is almost pointless...why? because of low cooldown and heavy amount of gap closers....tack on to that, no immunity on snares/roots and kiting is almost non-existent...you're either almost always snared, or almost always getting pulled/leaped onto

 

i've 1v1d maras and sins (which heal themselves for whatever crazy reason) on my merc as pyro and it's sad how fast you can get owned by them since they're mostly always going to be in your face (and healing your dot damage).....granted you can beat them every once in a while, when they're cds aren't up and you time everything right

 

i have a 50 sin and i laugh at any and i mean ANY mercenary coming my way

 

beyond this (1v1), i don't think mercs have a problem compared to other classes if you have a good team with you

 

forget trying to kill a healer on your own 1v1, if they're remotely decent, they'll just outheal whatever you can dish out....you better hope they're resolev bar isn't full and you can punt them/stun them (ghetto interrupt)

 

i guess what we're yearning for, is better 1v1 chances

 

oh and don't get me started on our lack of escapability vs other classes lol

Edited March 29, 2012 by rotatorkuf

[Macroecon]

PT Pyro > Merc Pyro. There isn't any question about it. There are some trade-offs around the edges. Stun/interrupts vs. self healing for example. But there are two big reasons why PT Pyros are better than Merc Pyros in PvP.

 

The first as mentioned by other posters is the easy access PT Pyros have to a tier 1 talent that boosts RS amor penetration from 30% (as is the case with Merc Pyros) to 90%. This is a HUGE impact. Right now the Merc Pyro can cause incidental damage to a heavily armored target with IM, but the PT Pyro can confidently cause damage to anything.

 

The second is that in order to proc RS with a burn, the Merc Pyro must stand still. And a proper sequence actually involves two abilities (IM, then Unload). That's a lot of heat to get one RS. The PT Pyro in contrast has access to an instant cast, no cooldown ability that procs RS and places a burn on the target. One ability = less heat = faster access to RS, plus you can move.

 

The claim that a Merc Pyro can stay at range is incredibly flawed. Whether it be a turret in Civil War or a pillar in Voidstar, it is very easy to break LoS vs. a stationary attacker. And that means you need to follow them around. Try following around a competent Sorc healer to prep your RS with Unload. You will get interrupted 100% of the time. It's just a pure heat gain, with no damage done. 80% of the engagements where I am on the attack occur inside 10 meters. 100% of the engagements where I am on the defense occur inside 10 meters. You can't be effective otherwise. If instead you are committed to staying at range, you should have been a Sniper or a Sorc.

[Rotm]

I'd take flameburst over power shot anyday. Similar damage with 100% chance to proc spam plus tech over white damage and its elemental and its instant. Also power shot is getting nerfed 10% for no reason. That would be enough alone but they attached ppa to unload which sucks without riddle and barrage.

 

Speaking of riddle and barrage they should have dropped those two and pinning fire down to tier 2 and 3 of arsenal, trashed integrated systems, made muzzle flutings effect baseline, and dropped enviro suit to tier 1. Target tracking goes to tier 5, maybe light em up to tier 6. That keeps arsenal the same, compensate bodyguard hybrid for the super gas and ps nerf and allows pyro merc to give up td for barrage.

[iDubstep]

Playing both a Merc and PT I think I could beat a PT Pyro specced as a Merc Pyro all other things equal.

 

Cleanse.

[SneakyErvin]

You guys are still mixing things up horribly in here.

 

Stop talking about other PT specs when the topic is about PT and Merc pyro similarities, i.e 31 point pyro or close to it. There are no charges or roots on grapple. You get more or less zero extra survivability as a PT vs Merc, your off hand shield doesnt do squat outside IGC. I dont even think it gives you the 5% block chance in CGC.

 

All you do in PvP wearing a shield as anything but a PT-shield spec is lose several hundred points of tech power aswell as lowering your aim and dps secondary stats. This lowers your damage in return for a 5% shield chance vs melee and ranged attacks, barely worth it vs any class. That is 1/20 range or melee attacks that dont pass through, and that last is reduced by 20%. If the shield even provides the 5% in the first place outside of the tank cylinder, will check how it works on my assassin since its the same for all shields.

 

-PT has 1 gap closer, 2 stuns and a 25% abs shield. Must be in melee range for decent damage output.

-Merc has 1 knockback, 1 stun and a 25% abs shield. But can stay at range the whole fight. Aswell as heals for survivability.

 

Two different classes, 2 different playstyles, one is better for some while one is better for others.

 

Still no idea why people ven brought up immolate, thats the point where you arent even close to a pyro spec since its 31 AP spec. You prolly dont have a single pyro talent with a spec like that.

 

Also, you dont need to get unload off to proc the CGC-RS, first tick decides if it procs or not. So all you need is one tick. You also gain nothing as a merc by staying within 10 meters. You have 1 attack, rocket punch, you are better of staying at range, since everything else is 30 meters. PT is a different story.

 

Only time I rush in as a merc pyro is to jet boost someone of an edge or objective.

[rotatorkuf]

Playing both a Merc and PT I think I could beat a PT Pyro specced as a Merc Pyro all other things equal.

 

Cleanse.

 

16 points, and you have to keep casting it since they have a VERY HIGH chance to keep their combustible dot on you

 

**** troll you don't play merc

[Baarabas]

You guys are still mixing things up horribly in here.

 

Stop talking about other PT specs when the topic is about PT and Merc pyro similarities, i.e 31 point pyro or close to it. There are no charges or roots on grapple. You get more or less zero extra survivability as a PT vs Merc, your off hand shield doesnt do squat outside IGC. I dont even think it gives you the 5% block chance in CGC.

 

All you do in PvP wearing a shield as anything but a PT-shield spec is lose several hundred points of tech power aswell as lowering your aim and dps secondary stats. This lowers your damage in return for a 5% shield chance vs melee and ranged attacks, barely worth it vs any class. That is 1/20 range or melee attacks that dont pass through, and that last is reduced by 20%. If the shield even provides the 5% in the first place outside of the tank cylinder, will check how it works on my assassin since its the same for all shields.

 

-PT has 1 gap closer, 2 stuns and a 25% abs shield. Must be in melee range for decent damage output.

-Merc has 1 knockback, 1 stun and a 25% abs shield. But can stay at range the whole fight. Aswell as heals for survivability.

 

Two different classes, 2 different playstyles, one is better for some while one is better for others.

 

Still no idea why people ven brought up immolate, thats the point where you arent even close to a pyro spec since its 31 AP spec. You prolly dont have a single pyro talent with a spec like that.

 

Also, you dont need to get unload off to proc the CGC-RS, first tick decides if it procs or not. So all you need is one tick. You also gain nothing as a merc by staying within 10 meters. You have 1 attack, rocket punch, you are better of staying at range, since everything else is 30 meters. PT is a different story.

 

Only time I rush in as a merc pyro is to jet boost someone of an edge or objective.

 

This is not just about 31 PT Pyro vs. 31 Merc Pyro. Half of our argument is the advantage gained from point investment outside the two trees. OP stated 2 very clearly. This is about "parakeet" builds. This is about all tier 1 skills available to PT Pyro in comparison to Merc Pyro.

 

Playstyle aside, this is a melee world. Ranged gets the disadvantage. I provided enough evidence to that. When I play melee, it is no skill what so ever for me to stay in melee distance. None. It's easy. For ranged to stay ranged takes skill, and many times skill can't even keep us at range long enough to be effective. As melee, I get shot, less that 2 seconds later I am at melee distance and I keep it there. 2 seconds. To say that PT's availability to higher damage skills and more worth while abilities to make it even to make up for range is over the top.

 

Let's be frank. Most people who play both will tell you, as I am, that PT has advantage over Merc. It's more than obvious. It's been a notional "matter of fact" since this game went live. There have been numerous posts and threads on these very boards attesting to it. The only reason to argue this thread is either because you have never played a Merc Pyro, so you just don't know or you protecting your current status over Merc.

 

Threads like these are not calling for a nerf. They are calling for a buff to Merc Pyro to bridge the gap. Unless you feel threatened by more competition, you wouldn't be so flamatory.

[SneakyErvin]

This is not just about 31 PT Pyro vs. 31 Merc Pyro. Half of our argument is the advantage gained from point investment outside the two trees. OP stated 2 very clearly. This is about "parakeet" builds. This is about all tier 1 skills available to PT Pyro in comparison to Merc Pyro.

 

Playstyle aside, this is a melee world. Ranged gets the disadvantage. I provided enough evidence to that. When I play melee, it is no skill what so ever for me to stay in melee distance. None. It's easy. For ranged to stay ranged takes skill, and many times skill can't even keep us at range long enough to be effective. As melee, I get shot, less that 2 seconds later I am at melee distance and I keep it there. 2 seconds. To say that PT's availability to higher damage skills and more worth while abilities to make it even to make up for range is over the top.

 

Let's be frank. Most people who play both will tell you, as I am, that PT has advantage over Merc. It's more than obvious. It's been a notional "matter of fact" since this game went live. There have been numerous posts and threads on these very boards attesting to it. The only reason to argue this thread is either because you have never played a Merc Pyro, so you just don't know or you protecting your current status over Merc.

 

Threads like these are not calling for a nerf. They are calling for a buff to Merc Pyro to bridge the gap. Unless you feel threatened by more competition, you wouldn't be so flamatory.

 

I have a pyro PT and a pyro merc, I enjoy both and they are both strong.

 

However, no matter how much you wanna argue it, PTs have to stay within 10 meters for good damage, they must be in there, in the middle of a fight getting hit by aoes and everything else.

 

Merc can very easily stay at range, do their thing and blast away. Its one reason to roll merc pyro, very high mobility and still great damage. The mix of the stun while kiting with added unloads or powershots is something a PT cant do, because they lack the 30 meter range attacks to proc the railshot.

 

Also the ACs are ment to be different and play different, just because the melee oriented AC has something doesnt mean the ranged AC should have it. Currently the non pyro talents works fine for both merc and pt.

 

PTs get more talents that give fire damage or fire crit, because they have many more fire attacks. Mercs get boosts to PS, Aim and general crit, something that buffs all their skills.

 

PT gets +6% to tech, 6% to fire, 12% total to tech based fire.

Merc gets +12% to tech (9% after patch) and 6% to ranged (3% after patch), this does not include damage and crit from extra aim.

 

Merc will still be ahead by atleast 3% crit after patch, except for fire attacks (CGC, IM, FM), which will be behind by tops 3%.

 

Not sure when this thread slipped away from a pyro thread to a general merc vs pt thread.

 

And again, running around as pyro with a shield generator is just gimping yourself. Giving up 200+ techpower some aim and crit or power for a 5% chance to block 20% of an incoming attack... yeah thats not a very wise trade.

 

Regarding the other argument in here, melee > range. I'm sorry, I cant agree with that. Range classes are far more easy to play. I have a BM ops, BM sorc and BM assassin, sorc is by far the easiest to play. Be it in PvP or PvE, range is much more forgiving to many situations.

Edited March 29, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[Barberiann]

THe whole purpose to me starting this thread was that I wanted to bring attention to the Talent and AC advantages that PowerTech BH's have over Mercenaries.

 

@ Baarabas - I've been agreeing with almost everything you have said. Thanks for some constructive commentary

 

@ SneakyErvin - I think that you may have missed the point of my thread, and that you are somewhat jaded from seeing the problem because you have 5 level 50 toons (Jesus....)

 

My argument is based on the fact that PowerTech and the way that class is played is much more of a synergy with the PvP centered Pyrotech talent tree than Mercenaries are.

 

One of my suggestions to fix this problem, would be to add a new Pyrotech talent to the Tier 1 for Mercenaries that gives Unload a 100% chance to proc CGC. This would mirror what PowerTech's have in terms of their spammable FLame Burst ability.

 

And PLEASE don't give me that BS argument that "Powertech's have to stay within 10m range to do good DPS, therefore Merc's are balanced cuz they can dps at 30m". As other's have pointed out, the ammount of gap closers and roots in this game completely equalizes the ranged dps benefit that Merc's may have had over a PT.

 

I played WoW for a long time as a Warlock doing competitive arenas, and I can say from that experience it sucks to have melee dps traiing you 24/7 with little that we can do about it. MAYBE, I completely chose the wrong Advanced Class and that would def be my fault. I am asking that Bioware look at the fundamental differences to boost Mercenaries effectiveness as Pyro compared to PT's.

 

And again, as others have pointed out, the fact that Mercs can heal themselves is laughable in PvP unless you are Medic spec'd. By the time you get a heal off, with interupts and pushback, the ammount healed is completely negated by damage you were taking.

 

Overall, I wish I had gone PT in retrospect. I would have MUCH rather had grapple, a second stun, an INTERUPT, and much more mobility to do dps with so many instant cast abilities and talents. But, I didn't make that choice so I'm just asking that some attention be brought to the matter.

 

I'm just trying to enjoy this game for the little bit that I'll be playing it until Diablo 3 or better games on the horizon release. I'm 75% PvP focused, and 25% raid focused. This games PvP is just disgusting and the reason I won't be staying around much longer.

[SneakyErvin]

I understand your point. Your post didnt really annoy me, what annoyed me in this constructive thread about PT-Pyro and Merc-Pyro are the ones that bring up things that arent even possible to get within a pyro spec.

 

The completely non related things, like charge, immo and so on. At this point the spec just isnt a pyro spec anymore.

 

The synergy is pretty great for PT-pyro, but be happy that you dont have to live with one of the most annoying bugs which comes with the PT-pyro tree.

 

If you pick up Bursting Flame and Swealtering Heat you will run into a very annoying bug as PT, especially when you really dont want it to bug. You see each time you cast FB you proc CGC, this should re-apply the snare from S-Heat. It doesnt. If you flame burst someone over and over while trying to kite or catch up to someone S-Heat will bug and not apply its snare, neither on the dot or when it re-applies CGC on the target.

 

I hope they fix it because its a very annoying bug. Re-applying CGC through any other blaster attack (rapid and unload) wont cause this bug. I'm sure this bug would be present if unload gave CGC a 100% chance to proc aswell.

 

And also, the people claiming that PT-pyro has more survivability than merc-pyro annoy me, because its false. There is nothing that the PT-pyro gets that the merc-pyro cant. And claiming that 5% makes any actual form of differance in PvP just proves they have lack understanding of how the shield works and against what.

 

Even with 20% chance on my assassin it still feels worthless, its ok vs melee and snipers, but thats with a 20% chance. thats 1 out of 5 shots, 5% chance is 1 out of 20 shots.

 

Aside from that they lack the healing a merc has. 1 heal would equal 5 blocked 1400 damage attacks or something. But heals are on demand, 5% block is not. You are lucky if you manage to block 5 attacks in a single fight with 5% chance.

 

And I agree with you, PT has a lot of PvP centered abilities that the merc lacks, major ones actually being taunt IMO. But on the other hand, mercs have things you will miss as a PT, knockbacks, cc, ranged support.

 

I like both, I wouldnt trade in one for the other. Plus if you keep the merc you can always switch to healer or rocket platform.

Edited March 29, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[Barberiann]

@SneakyErvin

 

I have to disagree about the bug you talked about happening with Unload as I had suggested. Because you can spam that ability, ie no cooldown, I can see how that bug might be a problem. However, if it was the same for Unload I don't think that would happen because Unload has a 15 sec CD thus not allowing us to spam this

 

You brought up another huge issue, mostly just in regards to PvP, that I forgot about which was Taunts. Dear god, these are insane in PvP if they are used smart.

 

I just wish I had rolled PT from the start, def my mistake for not looking at the advanced classes in more detail. As I had mentioned before, I love PvPing and the PT's are just way more geared towards that type of playstyle.

 

Awesome PT Abilities: 2 stuns, an interupt, grapple, taunts for mitigating damage, more instant cast dps abilities, more mobility

 

Awesome Merc Abilities: 1 stun...1 ineffective knockback... terrible heals....

 

Damn I always make the wrong characters in mmos... I'm def going melee if I ever make an alt or play another game. MMO devs ALWAYS favor melee

[SneakyErvin]

Na what I ment with the bug passing over to unload is in the case you get the buff up with rapid shots, then unload, thus crippling future rapid shot CGC procs. That would suck. For PT it isnt the end of the world, cos you cant really kite in this game as a PT since every class has a 10 meter attack and a 50% slow, even pure melee.

 

For PT the bug occurs randomly when CGC is on the target already and you FB, really annoying. Its like it a bug with the ticks. Say you proc CGC, then flame burst 3 times while the CGC is on target it seems to treat each flame burst as a tick proccing the slow, and the bug thinks CGC has procced its 3 ticks over 6 sec already. But it only happens when FB procs CGC.

 

Regarding melee/ranged and which is favored by devs. I havent played a single game where melee or range has been more favored than the other, only games where classes have been more favored than another.

 

In this game its suprisingly equal IMO. We all get a benefit or another, range have their perks, melee have theirs. When it comes to PvE however, ranged classes are by far the most favored in most games. Devs always forget about mechanics that really cripple melee dps.

 

Was the same from day 1 in WoW up to the last day I played it in Cata. Play melee, watch out for everything on a boss, play ranged, mash buttons and never worry about boss mechanics. In Cata it was over the edge, every single little encounter had massive AoE only effecting those close to the boss/group. Tol'vir, HoO, GB, VP, BrC and so on. All a pain in the *** for melee dps, and a walk in the park as ranged.

 

Here it feels the exact same in hard modes, melee have to watch for stuff, ranged doesnt, except on a few odd fights.

 

But back to merc and pt. The two ACs are very different in playstyle, even if you pick pyro on both. I'm honestly not sure which AC I like the most of the two as pyro.

 

Merc lets me stay out of LoS and blast at distant targets that are still in my LoS, PTs dont have that luxory, they need to get into the thick of it, where they are visible to deliver their damage.

 

PT on the other hand lets me skip IM when I dont feel I need it for RS, because FB applies CGC on demand.

 

Burst potentioal is equal for both.

 

Merc: IM, TD, unload, RS

PT: IM(optional), FB, TD, RP, RS

 

I'm still thinking about going arsenal with my merc, because it just feels too much the same playing pro x2. And I really dont want to go anything but pyro on my PT. : \

 

Arsenal just feels so heavy and clunky in PvP.

Edited March 30, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[Baarabas]

I understand your point. Your post didnt really annoy me, what annoyed me in this constructive thread about PT-Pyro and Merc-Pyro are the ones that bring up things that arent even possible to get within a pyro spec.

 

The completely non related things, like charge, immo and so on. At this point the spec just isnt a pyro spec anymore.

 

 

And also, the people claiming that PT-pyro has more survivability than merc-pyro annoy me, because its false. There is nothing that the PT-pyro gets that the merc-pyro cant. And claiming that 5% makes any actual form of differance in PvP just proves they have lack understanding of how the shield works and against what.

 

Even with 20% chance on my assassin it still feels worthless, its ok vs melee and snipers, but thats with a 20% chance. thats 1 out of 5 shots, 5% chance is 1 out of 20 shots.

 

Aside from that they lack the healing a merc has. 1 heal would equal 5 blocked 1400 damage attacks or something. But heals are on demand, 5% block is not. You are lucky if you manage to block 5 attacks in a single fight with 5% chance.

 

And I agree with you, PT has a lot of PvP centered abilities that the merc lacks, major ones actually being taunt IMO. But on the other hand, mercs have things you will miss as a PT, knockbacks, cc, ranged support.

 

I like both, I wouldnt trade in one for the other. Plus if you keep the merc you can always switch to healer or rocket platform.

 

It easy to avoid truths. To say it is impossible to get jet charge while spec'd as Pyro is a lie. I'll remind you of the parakeet again. Merc pyros do not have any viable hybrid specs. Arsenals, yes. Merc pyros, no.

 

I already broke down survivability to you. You just don't want to admit it. Shield is a passive ability you don't have to activate or cast. It works in the background while you get to mash DPS. It boosts your defences way more than you care to lead on. Just look at your character sheet and your shield rating and chance next time your in. Kolto overload, shields, med pack, PvP stim is all you need. All instant cast. I never use my self heals in combat. It's suicide. I use them like 10% out of combat. A few seconds out of combat and universal heal is available. Thus Merc has no advantage or even ground. No passive defence allowing me to mash DPS.

 

You would rather have a jet boost than grapple? Just say yes to this and lose all credibility. You say you'll miss CC as a PT? You do realize Merc cc is inferior to PT. And you'll trade one on one ability for ranged support? I'm not buying anything your selling.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Baarabas

[Rotm]

Parakeet is dead in 1.2, no reason to bring it up. Also stop talking about gimp shield generators on pyro builds like anyone uses them. Tank builds wouldn't even use them if heat regen didn't depend on it.

[Thankyjack]

I have played both merc and pt in pyro spec. It is a gimped spec for merc, no question. S, you have mobility, but so what? It's not worth losing all of the burst and sustained damage of arsenal.

 

Leave pyro for the pts and spam your tracer missile.

[SneakyErvin]

It easy to avoid truths. To say it is impossible to get jet charge while spec'd as Pyro is a lie. I'll remind you of the parakeet again. Merc pyros do not have any viable hybrid specs. Arsenals, yes. Merc pyros, no.

 

I already broke down survivability to you. You just don't want to admit it. Shield is a passive ability you don't have to activate or cast. It works in the background while you get to mash DPS. It boosts your defences way more than you care to lead on. Just look at your character sheet and your shield rating and chance next time your in. Kolto overload, shields, med pack, PvP stim is all you need. All instant cast. I never use my self heals in combat. It's suicide. I use them like 10% out of combat. A few seconds out of combat and universal heal is available. Thus Merc has no advantage or even ground. No passive defence allowing me to mash DPS.

 

You would rather have a jet boost than grapple? Just say yes to this and lose all credibility. You say you'll miss CC as a PT? You do realize Merc cc is inferior to PT. And you'll trade one on one ability for ranged support? I'm not buying anything your selling.

 

Just stop already. Parakeet is NOT a pyro spec, its a hybrid. It like everyone that runs around and claims a 31-0-10 assassin spec is a hybrid when infact thats a pure darkness spec.

 

You talk as if your shield is something magically powerful, it isnt. It is infact total crap that gimps your dps by a longshot. Its 5% as I have said before. You waste more than 5% damage attributes for the chance to shield 20% damage from 1 attack out of 20 ranged and melee attacks. Its one thing if you run with the tank cylinder, then its 20% chance. But if you run with tank cylinder you arent a pyro spec anyways.

 

No effect versus: Sorcs

 

Little to no effect versus: Operatives, Assassins, Mercs, PTs. Thrash, lacerate, RS, basic attack, overload shot, unload, powershot, snipe, cull. Rest are tech or force.

 

Decent effect versus: Warriors and snipers. But then again, its a 5% chance, still just 1 out of 20 attacks are reduced by 20% damage. Not worth gimping your damage over.

 

1 heal from a merc pyro will keep him alive for longer than the 5% shield on a pyro pt.

 

As I said earlier, I play both already, they are different in style. Both are very good specs. And regarding inferior CC for the merc. Nope not in my book. PT gets two stuns (a 4sec and a 2.5 sec), merc gets a stun(4sec) and a real CC(8sec in pvp), which at 50 can be instant cast.

 

Regarding the grapple vs jet boost. Both are good and serve their purpose for the specs. PT wants them near, merc doesnt. They both work perfectly well to get people into fires, down from ledges or away from objectives.

 

I miss jet boost when I play my PT and I miss grapple when I play my merc. Actually I miss the rocket punch knockback that arsenal brings when playing either of the two.

Edited March 30, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[FluxWing]

why compare parakeet builds to pure pyro mercs? With 1.2, parakeets will be extinct.

 

And how much Shield rating does it take to get 23% shield chance. And 19% defence in CGC?

 

I have 7% defence, and would have 5% shield chance if I used a shield. To get your defensive stats to that level, do you use Rakata tank gear or something.

 

What kind of crit/surge do you have then?