Dyvim Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Updated....as todays patch notes indicate, 3/29, no changes to chunk a clunker or pebblestorm...I logged into pts and the craptasms are still there, just like live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screttle Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 i only play one class and its the shadow... i am however rather sick of the animation, many of times i could have killed my target before it kills me... with the additional particles also means its even a lag with that. the only up side is the burst of 2 skills closer together, but by the time those hit a healer could be 1s into an induction or w/e... even though this is along faster moving game then some, it is rather painful to see the video comparisions of this and the Emp's side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocping Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) There are more than enough ideas and concepts in these two small paragraphs from the official wiki to give jedi everything they need to have rock solid, pun intended, awesome looking, powerful looking, skills based off of force push concepts with animations that rock, again, pun intended...jedi are not junk throwers or rock conjurers, or earth shamans... I lol-ed. BioWare I know you guys love Sith, but this game is not for you to show your (blatant) favouritism in, all of us Jedi/Rep are still paying customers. Just f-ing mirror 100% of disputed animations already; it's been 4 months into release, surely you guys are not so incompetent as to not be able to fix things (by copying and pasting 3d model animation scripts)? Edited March 30, 2012 by ocping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okinyo Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) I just can't take it anymore. I love this game but, that project animation has to go! Edited March 30, 2012 by Okinyo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The rock shatters, the junk shatters, etc. for the same reason it is magically conjured in the first place...the animation cheats the environment and is thoroughly ridiculous. Metal from droid chassis isnt going to disintegrate when it hits a skull. And a rock isnt either. Its just as ridiculous as EVERY OTHER part of the animation. Yeah, yoda threw one back, reflectively, after palpitane threw 7 + at him. If jedi were junk throwers, then yoda would have had endless ammo in there and been chunking cars at palpitane as fast as he was at him...but that didnt happen. If jedi were junk throwers, yoda would have thrown junk back at Dooku on geonosis...but that didnt happen. Dooku throws a few things, drops the ceiling on him, and Yoda tells him he sense the darkside in him..duh, because junk throwing has been a CLASSIC, SIGNATURE darkside skill ever since Vader did it to Luke on Bespin in ESB 30 years ago. If you dont count anakins darth vader preview in aotc, in six movies, jedi throw something, and then reflectively, as much as they use choke. And in contrast every sith in the movies throw junk. THey do it more than they choke, more than they use lightning. So CLEARLY if you have so much as seen a movie, it is WILDLY inappropriate to turn jedi into junk throwing shamans, like they have done in this game. Sidious zaps yoda with lightning...what does Yoda do? throw a chair at him? or some magically conjured rock out of the floor? NO of course not, he force pushes him...it IS what jedi do... If you go by lore, force push should be the basis of the consulars ranged attacks. And it CAN be direct damage with NO knockback...you can basically push them into the ground...see the piledriver comment in the wiki excerpt below... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis Force Push At more powerful levels, Force Push was the ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force, launching a concussive burst of pressurized air-not unlike the blast of an archaic 'pipe bomb'-that would impact a target with enough force to knock it over, launch it into the air, or even (particularly in the case of fragile materials such as ceramics) shatter it into pieces. The greater the user's telekinetic aptitude, the larger the pressure differential, and thus the stronger the effect and the heavier the target. With practice, a skilled Force user could increase the range and arc of the blast without lowering the average kinetic energy, creating a blanketed wave instead of a focused impulse. Truly gifted practitioners could generate a concussive blast that would radiate from them for dozens of meters in all directions, detonating with the force of a conventional explosive. This power was an effective tool for keeping enemies at a distance. A well-aimed push could have sent the target crashing into a nearby wall or other obstruction, resulting in bludgeoning damage and possible disorientation or blackout. A Force push could also cause direct damage, by striking an enemy in the form of a telekinetic fist which had the power of a pile driver. This could injure or even kill enemies through the sheer power of the kinetic blast alone, rather than the damage caused by the collision of the target with a larger obstruction. There are more than enough ideas and concepts in these two small paragraphs from the official wiki to give jedi everything they need to have rock solid, pun intended, awesome looking, powerful looking, skills based off of force push concepts with animations that rock, again, pun intended...jedi are not junk throwers or rock conjurers, or earth shamans... No, it wasnt 'reflectively' he stopped it ... took a few seconds to get it spinning (for some odd reason), then tossed it back. He couldve just as easily set it aside like he's done with every single other attack but didnt. Either way thats not the point. Its that telekinesis ISNT something iconic to Sith (which btw, Sith also use Force Push quite frequently ... Dooku, Darth Maul, Vader) and fits the role of something a Jedi would use perfectly. Its not a Sith power, its universal and under the same category as your Force Push ... only with a different application. Sure, pulling debris out of the ground looks ridiculous but using the Force to manipulate their environment is something Jedi's even train with. I really wish lore junkies would stop using simple coincidences from the movies as some kind of indisputable lore. Specially the "oh its happened but only on very few occasions so it shouldnt be in game." Much like the Lightsaber color debacle, it confirms nor refutes nothing. Like I said before "Force Push" would not work for the game. Every time its used, someone gets tossed around and hardly shows an effect. Even using a "big white cloud", much like Distrbance, it looks horrible and non-damaging at all. The devs want something that looks painful, and fits the telekinesis theme they were going for. Tossing around "compressed air" hardly fits the bill. Whats your 'telekinetic fist which had the power of a pile driver' going to look like? A smaller version of THIS?Disturbance? No thank you. Its bad enough the Inquisitors get all the cool looking lightning eye candy ... the last thing Consulars need is to get turned into Air Compressors. The power designs of the Consular are fine as they are ... they just need to fix the timing. Either speed up the Consular or delay the Inquisitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aariok Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I honestly don't understand why so many people are upset about the delay. Yeah, it's not instant damage on an instant ability, but if you're using it to finish someone off, why not just use an ability that is instant damage. The slight delay can be used to ones advantage. The only time the delay gets to be a problem for me is when the boulder is lifted out of the ground and the enemy vanishes, so the boulder floats there, doing nothing. Yes, that needs to be fixed, but otherwise I just don't get why it's such a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhl Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I could care less about the damage timing differences, but i'm sure as hell tired of losing Warzones because of it. Today alone I lost a huttball, 2 Alderanns and a Voidstar because of this stupid animation. This exactly. Easyrealm cast instant and interrupt. Republic cant have that feature, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthanThristam Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 When fighting an equally skilled Tank Assassin, I'm a bit tired of them having an advantage. Now you may think its not a big deal, but due to the animation difference they're able to track when I'm popping all my cooldowns for Particle Acceleration and get their immunity shield up in time. Due to the animation difference they have about a 2.5-3.0 second window, which is all the time in the world. For me, I have a 1 second window when my opponent does the same using Shock. It needs to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvim Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) No, it wasnt 'reflectively' he stopped it ... took a few seconds to get it spinning (for some odd reason), then tossed it back. He couldve just as easily set it aside like he's done with every single other attack but didnt. Either way thats not the point. Its that telekinesis ISNT something iconic to Sith (which btw, Sith also use Force Push quite frequently ... Dooku, Darth Maul, Vader) and fits the role of something a Jedi would use perfectly. Its not a Sith power, its universal and under the same category as your Force Push ... only with a different application. Sure, pulling debris out of the ground looks ridiculous but using the Force to manipulate their environment is something Jedi's even train with. I really wish lore junkies would stop using simple coincidences from the movies as some kind of indisputable lore. Specially the "oh its happened but only on very few occasions so it shouldnt be in game." Much like the Lightsaber color debacle, it confirms nor refutes nothing. Like I said before "Force Push" would not work for the game. Every time its used, someone gets tossed around and hardly shows an effect. Even using a "big white cloud", much like Distrbance, it looks horrible and non-damaging at all. The devs want something that looks painful, and fits the telekinesis theme they were going for. Tossing around "compressed air" hardly fits the bill. Whats your 'telekinetic fist which had the power of a pile driver' going to look like? A smaller version of THIS?Disturbance? No thank you. Its bad enough the Inquisitors get all the cool looking lightning eye candy ... the last thing Consulars need is to get turned into Air Compressors. The power designs of the Consular are fine as they are ... they just need to fix the timing. Either speed up the Consular or delay the Inquisitor. Well, I would say it is reflective...he takes what sidious throws at him, blocks it, then sends it back. Just like jedi do with blaster bolts when they block and then redirect SOME of them at the attacker. Exact same principle. Telekinesis is not iconic sith...but it all comes down to the application. Force Push has ALWAYS been neutral, in the movies and in the games, but certain applications of it are more darksided (like pushing someone off a cliff). Now, the SPECIFIC application of throwing junk at targets IS darkside. Very much so, ever since Vader in ESB 30 years ago. Maul, Vader, Palpitane, Dooku...all do it. All the time. It is a signature skill for them...They do it MORE than any other ranged attack. And it has been classified as a dark skill all the way back to Dark Forces 2:Jedi Knight, the very first 3D jedi game where powers were enumerated and classified between the dark and light. And in subsequent games, IF included, it has always been dark, never even neutral. It is a darkside application, just like choke is. Now, do jedi use choke...yep, rarely. Do jedi shoot a form of lightning (electric judgment)...YES...rarely. They also throw things...RARELY. Sith do it FREQUENTLY. Its not that throwing objects shouldnt be in the game, IF DONE RIGHT. By your OWN admission, the current ground conjuring is RIDICULOUS. But it should NOT be the SIGNATURE moves of consulars. No way, no how. As a skill occasionally used up somewhere in the telekinetics tree...fine. but NOT used ALL the time, every combat rotation. Consular types are CONSTANTLY throwing rocks, pebblesm or junk. And, it is ridiculous and it violates the VERY NOTION of what a jedi is... I understand you arent a fan of the kind of force push disturbance variant. I like it. But it could be improved upon. You can come up with inumerable ideas, just using the bomb/shockwave/pressure wave concepts...and they dont have ot knock back, they can stun, like project, or whatever. Point is, with a little imagination, force push could be made more awesome than anything else in the game... It is very clear to anyone that wants to be honest, who has actually watched the movies, played the official games, and knows anything about the Lore, that BASING the jedi caster class on junk throwing with project and tk throw is WILDLY INAPPROPRIATE and completely violates canon. Jedi are not junk throwers. Certainly not in EVERY combat, in EVERY rotation. It is LAUGHBALE, and completely UNSUPPORTABLE. Again, here are the problems with preoject...it really is simple..that craptastic animation has to get canned... 1) The animation breaks the mirror mechanic 2) The animation allows for GCD burst cheating...which further violates the mirror mechanic and the GCD mechanic 3) The animation breaks the suspension of disbelief mechanic with endless junk conjuring 4) The animation violates the lore/canon by making jedi = junk. Clearly the signature class skills should be based off of some variation of force push... Edited March 30, 2012 by Dyvim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanTesla Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Project needs to be in line with its Inquisitors counterpart Shock. The delay is annoying in pve for foes are alerted before it hits and sometimes can get a shot off at you before yours even connects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strictnine Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I think Project is awesome. I love smacking dudes in the head with rocks, droids, or junk. Pebble storm kicks butt. I don't think a game should have to emulate reality or provide a realistic explanation for every game mechanic. Realism is often the antithesis of fun, and I think BW did a pretty good job of making a trademark ability for the consular. The game is based on Star Wars, it isn't a digital manifestation of the Star Wars reality. Give BW some license to express the Star Wars universe in their own terms. And if you really can't deal with it, roll a different character or play a different game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PseudoOne Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 At first the animation delay didn't really bother me. But seeing how often assassins or Maras disappear as soon as it comes out of the ground for it just to hang there without tracking gets really frustrating. Either Bioware makes it instant (somehow. The animation change would be interesting) Make Shock delayed. Such as charging a ball of electricity above the Sins head before throwing it. Make project track the target and knock them out of stealth. Frankly I'm all for the second choice. Make Sins charge a ball of electricity over their head for a second. It's the easiest solution to balance the classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvim Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) At first the animation delay didn't really bother me. But seeing how often assassins or Maras disappear as soon as it comes out of the ground for it just to hang there without tracking gets really frustrating. Either Bioware makes it instant (somehow. The animation change would be interesting) Make Shock delayed. Such as charging a ball of electricity above the Sins head before throwing it. Make project track the target and knock them out of stealth. Frankly I'm all for the second choice. Make Sins charge a ball of electricity over their head for a second. It's the easiest solution to balance the classes. You are right that the mirrors need to match. Alot of people wont even stipulate that...but let's use a little more logic... You dont break your left arm to match your broken right arm. You do what it takes to heal the right arm. In this case it is as simple as replacing project. Sith are the junk throwers if anyone is. Six movies show us that, period. There is absolutely NO reason to cling to a borked junk throwing animation for jedi like it is a quintessential jedi skill that would ruin the whole class if removed. In fact, its just the opposite. It should be dropped like a bad habit. Having junk throwing as the signature skills of the class pretty much ruin it and make it a joke. Faction imbalance has happened for a reason. Why break another skill instead of fixing the original problem? The unresponisve delay on project, which has an animation that needs an activation timer, is the problem. FIX IT. There is already a "charging" lightning animation, it is called Lightning Strike, and is on a skill with a ACTIVATION timer, just like the project animation needs. The project animation can EASILY be fixed by replacing it with a saber throw or a force push/disturbance style effect, both of which are more consular moves than knight moves, anyway. The animation for project is the problem. It makes the delay. Delay, on top of GCD sluggishness is the last thing this game needs... I keep seeing the "delay shock" idea...I can only surmise that people just simply arent thinking the situation through... Why do you want to spread delay to skills, instead of remove it? If you start introducing damage delay to instacast skills that dont have it, why stop at Inqs? I mean if consulars and Inqs have damage delay, then why NOT other classes with their low level instant abilities??? Really this is so obvious, I am stunned that I have to explain it. Combat is not just between inqs and cons in this game. The crazy idea of spreading the delay simply spreads the problem. Why should operative/scoundrels, who can also stealth, and have various other defensive CDs, get the TIME to react to my inq/con insta abilitites of shock/project? Or ANY OTHER CLASS??? WHY? Will my Sin get the same chance to react to their insta abilities??? No? So we need to start spreading DELAYS around so EVERYONE gets the chance to avoid or mitigate instant abilities...that is one of the most stupid courses of action I can imagine. It is pure lunacy. Yet it is the logical conclusion of delay spreading. If you want shock to get a "charging delay" (which is completely ridiculous), why shouldnt blasters and their instacast abilities get a "charging" or loading damage delay. Or aiming, or whatever. Hopefully you can see how wildly stupid that idea is, and the slippery slope of delay you would take the game down. Until someone can come up with some kind of reasonable response about the faults of spreading delay instead of removing it (really both paths involve changing an animation, why not change things to be more responsive???), I have no reason to consider it anything other than unsupported crazy talk. Edited April 25, 2012 by Dyvim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strictnine Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't PvP in this game so I honestly don't care how well the mirrors match. I do care about abilities looking and feeling right for the class, and the new project animation (the answer to everyone's big concern over the delay), looks and feels like garbage. Most of the time people nitpick is because they can't deal with loss. So they look for any excuse outside of their control to explain it. That is what happened to project. Players should have embraced it instead of insisting that it be bastardized into what it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvim Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't PvP in this game so I honestly don't care how well the mirrors match. I do care about abilities looking and feeling right for the class, and the new project animation (the answer to everyone's big concern over the delay), looks and feels like garbage. Most of the time people nitpick is because they can't deal with loss. So they look for any excuse outside of their control to explain it. That is what happened to project. Players should have embraced it instead of insisting that it be bastardized into what it is now. Well, luckily, the devs do. Unluckily, they are still fixated on the idea that jedi = junk. It is appropriate that you describe it as looking and feeling like "garbage" since it literally involves tossing junk (debris according to the tooltip). That is garbage to me. People have a problem with project because it looks ridiculous, and makes the hallmark skill of jedi junk. Nothing in 6 movies supports the idea that jedi are rabid junk throwers. SITH are however. Name one jedi in 6 movies that threw a rock? Or initiated throwing junk...you come up with Anakin, who I consider sith not so much jedi. But anyway, in contrast, we see EVERY SINGLE SITH throw junk at targets, and do so more than they use ANY OTHER RANGED ATTACK. That is conclusive, and means junk throwing = SITH to anyone that actually paid attention during the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xienive Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Without throwing rocks, Luke might have died to that rancor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvim Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 Without throwing rocks, Luke might have died to that rancor! lol, yes, and if you have seen some of my other posts, sometimes I mention that Luke did throw one, with his hand...lol. Or I will just say "using the force". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strictnine Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) No offense but your little pet peev about jedi and throwing junk is silly. There are a lot of liberties taken with the star wars universe and it really doesn't matter that much. I just want the mechanics to look and feel well executed. Project was one of our most entertaining moves, even if you thought it was out of place on a jedi. I couldn't really care less about that aspect of your reasoning. Both sith and jedi have used the force to move objects telepathically. It isn't like the light side of the force is devoid of this option. Saying it doesn't fit because you didn't see in a movie just shows a lack of imagination and a rigid idea of what it means to be Jedi. Why don't you let the Jedi out of your tiny little box so you can enjoy the game a little more? Edited July 2, 2012 by strictnine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvim Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 No offense but your little pet peev about jedi and throwing junk is silly. There are a lot of liberties taken with the star wars universe and it really doesn't matter that much. I just want the mechanics to look and feel well executed. Project was one of our most entertaining moves, even if you thought it was out of place on a jedi. I couldn't really care less about that aspect of your reasoning. Both sith and jedi have used the force to move objects telepathically. It isn't like the light side of the force is devoid of this option. Saying it doesn't fit because you didn't see in a movie just shows a lack of imagination and a rigid idea of what it means to be Jedi. Why don't you let the Jedi out of your tiny little box so you can enjoy the game a little more? uh...its not just that the jedi didnt do it that much, the sith did it all the time. It's pretty much the same give away as a red lightsaber in the movies. Couple that with the magical, environmentally ignorant conjuring and it is just too stupid for prime time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sireene Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Hey there! We're going to go ahead and close this thread as the topic of discussion has run its course. We do, however, have an ongoing discussion regarding the recent changes to the Project ability so please feel free to join in here and share your opinions: Opinions on the new Project animation? Thanks and may the Force be with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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