A BM's opinion on the status of 'Sin pvp

[Waise]

Alright, well I'm not going to take a high road, just going to state my observations and opinions on the three trees in pvp.

 

Darkness: okay the truth is about this spec, when adding all factors together, this spec is the leading choice in pvp. I don't like it personally, because I feel it is the cheapest and easiest spec.

It's drawbacks: it doesn't have the bust capability of the other specs. It can be burst-y but depends on popping all cool downs to deal the damage.

It's Highlights: super survivability, average to high damage, controllable self-healing.

 

Deception: I love the play style of this spec and it's possibilities. It feels like an assassin. . . Darth Maul all the way.

It's drawbacks: SURVIVABILITY, it has no tree specific surviving talents, granted it does have a cool down lowering talent, however, you cant kill someone with force cloak. Force starved after your dark embrace and dark swell are gone. No Self Healing! only tree with no healing at all. One of the hardest pvp spec to play in game imo.

It's Highlights: nice opener, can kill healers if timed correctly. Massive burst, especially with full BM. Fun fun fun spec. If you are running with a healer and a tank guarding you, it makes this spec shine. Have earned immortal many times with this spec.

 

Madness: A nice and fun, yet, complicated spec.

It's drawbacks: you are staring at your buff bar and enemy debuff bar. . .very mind intensive, meaning if you aren't mentally agile, you won't be able to pull this spec off efficiently, a lot of different things going on at once.

It's highlights: fun (challenging) spec! self-heals, great dps, if tweaked and timed right can have awesome burst (I see 2.3k thrash crits constantly) pressures multiple enemy healers at one time, high crit rating (when I have an operative buff I sit at 38.6%, when I proc and hit my critical relic I get up to 52%, which leads to a nice burst and awesome for the heals)

 

What to adjust:

Darkness: if Bw wants to take the dps tanks out of pvp, lower the damage out put, but increase threat generation for pve at the same time.

Deception: NEEDS A SELF-HEALING TALENT, perhaps % of damage done on a critical? needs some more.advisability, a self heal would be enough. That is what is really killing deception, it can and does great burst, but you need to be in the best gear possible, maybe adjust how it scales so that with good gear it can still shine. It also needs some more force regen, I suggest making the + 10 force talent instead make dark embrace last longer.

Madness: not much, but I would like to see more single target burst-ability, but hey who wouldn't. I actually think it needs it's self healing buffed, for example, parasitism to heal for 3% instead of 2%?

 

that's my thoughts, any other constructive criticism?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Waise

[Hokonoso]

deception is fine, bring a pocket healer and it shines, that's strategy and shouldnt be changed, it's darkness which has ppl on the fence, it does too much dps for having more survivability than a juggernaut in immortal spec (pvp).

 

i honestly dont see why more ppl dont go deception tbh, operatives are still 2x the threat of a sin in darkness spec...

[Waise]

deception is fine, bring a pocket healer and it shines, that's strategy and shouldnt be changed, it's darkness which has ppl on the fence, it does too much dps for having more survivability than a juggernaut in immortal spec (pvp).

 

i honestly dont see why more ppl dont go deception tbh, operatives are still 2x the threat of a sin in darkness spec...

 

 

You can't spec into pocket healer lol. I did state that if there is a healer and a tank guarding it does well, but I don't think class should depend on having someone following them. And yes, op/smugg can kill someone within their stunlock, and they have heals as dps also, lol

[Waise]

Alright, well I'm not going to take a high road, just going to state my observations and opinions on the three trees in pvp.

 

Darkness: okay the truth is about this spec, when adding all factors together, this spec is the leading choice in pvp. I don't like it personally, because I feel it is the cheapest and easiest spec.

It's drawbacks: it doesn't have the bust capability of the other specs. It can be burst-y but depends on popping all cool downs to deal the damage.

It's Highlights: super survivability, average to high damage, controllable self-healing.

 

Deception: I love the play style of this spec and it's possibilities. It feels like an assassin. . . Darth Maul all the way.

It's drawbacks: SURVIVABILITY, it has no tree specific surviving talents, granted it does have a cool down lowering talent, however, you cant kill someone with force cloak. Force starved after your dark embrace and dark swell are gone. No Self Healing! only tree with no healing at all. One of the hardest pvp spec to play in game imo.

It's Highlights: nice opener, can kill healers if timed correctly. Massive burst, especially with full BM. Fun fun fun spec. If you are running with a healer and a tank guarding you, it makes this spec shine. Have earned immortal many times with this spec.

 

Madness: A nice and fun, yet, complicated spec.

It's drawbacks: you are staring at your buff bar and enemy debuff bar. . .very mind intensive, meaning if you aren't mentally agile, you won't be able to pull this spec off efficiently, a lot of different things going on at once.

It's highlights: fun (challenging) spec! self-heals, great dps, if tweaked and timed right can have awesome burst (I see 2.3k thrash crits constantly) pressures multiple enemy healers at one time, high crit rating (when I have an operative buff I sit at 38.6%, when I proc and hit my critical relic I get up to 52%, which leads to a nice burst and awesome for the heals)

 

What to adjust:

Darkness: if Bw wants to take the dps tanks out of pvp, lower the damage out put, but increase threat generation for pve at the same time.

Deception: NEEDS A SELF-HEALING TALENT, perhaps % of damage done on a critical? needs some more.advisability, a self heal would be enough. That is what is really killing deception, it can and does great burst, but you need to be in the best gear possible, maybe adjust how it scales so that with good gear it can still shine. It also needs some more force regen, I suggest making the + 10 force talent instead make dark embrace last longer.

Madness: not much, but I would like to see more single target burst-ability, but hey who wouldn't. I actually think it needs it's self healing buffed, for example, parasitism to heal for 3% instead of 2%?

 

that's my thoughts, any other constructive criticism?

 

Sorry for the typographical errors, was typing this while on my phone

[TheOpf]

Deception is fine as long as you don't play it like a tank. You don't need survival, you need to escape. A shorter CD on Force Cloak would be amazing. It's only 2 minutes. There are some WZ's I need it every 30-45 seconds.

 

You are not energy starved if you don't spam Maul. If you spam Maul and Discharge you will be seriously energy starved.

 

VSx2, shock, Maul, Discharge will drop a guy like a rock. Nothing more fun than a running healer.

[Delillo]

Problems with deception.

 

1. Squishy but has to be in melee range.

2. Spec is very easy to control. A single KB/root is an easy 1 button counter. Your only option is to waste your long CD CC break (which every class has) or watch as you get focus fired. Darkness by contrast can use disjunction to escape the root or force pull to return the target to melee range.

3. Stealth is fragile. With all the AE flying around its very easy to be accidentally knocked out of stealth.

4. Not that deception has a good opener anyway. Deception DPS can be excellent but it requires a big ramp up. Good opponents don't allow that. The window for them to react to you is very large.

5. WZs don't reward deception playstyle. Huttball's ramps make for easy counters to deception. Voidstar's doors create choke points that reward scalable/AE talents. Civil war is probably the best for deception but still features concentrated fighting on nodes.

 

I played deception to valor 60 and then switched to darkness as I just did not see deception fitting into an any kind of premade for rated WZs. Darkness is so much easier to play and has so much more utility. There is no doubt that my contribution to a group / win is far greater as darkness.

[Astarica]

A tank is always better off guarding say a Marauder or a Merc for DPS than Deception for DPS purposes, even though tanks shouldn't be guarding DPS to begin with (should be guarding healers).

 

Healing someone with low defense is a waste of heals. This isn't a heal-strong game. By keeping the weak guy alive you're letting someone else stronger die.

 

The argument for Deception basically says if your team plays in a dumb way to protect you even though they should let you die, you can put up good numbers. Well, if you want that kind of treatment, you should roll a female character, because at least that might actually work. I remember PvPing against some premades and notice how there's one character who never died who wasn't even that good, until someone pointed out to be that is the only female character on that premade and literally all 3 other guys would run across the map to stop you from getting to the lone female character.

[TheOpf]

Problems with deception.

 

1. Squishy but has to be in melee range.

2. Spec is very easy to control. A single KB/root is an easy 1 button counter. Your only option is to waste your long CD CC break (which every class has) or watch as you get focus fired. Darkness by contrast can use disjunction to escape the root or force pull to return the target to melee range.

3. Stealth is fragile. With all the AE flying around its very easy to be accidentally knocked out of stealth.

4. Not that deception has a good opener anyway. Deception DPS can be excellent but it requires a big ramp up. Good opponents don't allow that. The window for them to react to you is very large.

5. WZs don't reward deception playstyle. Huttball's ramps make for easy counters to deception. Voidstar's doors create choke points that reward scalable/AE talents. Civil war is probably the best for deception but still features concentrated fighting on nodes.

 

I played deception to valor 60 and then switched to darkness as I just did not see deception fitting into an any kind of premade for rated WZs. Darkness is so much easier to play and has so much more utility. There is no doubt that my contribution to a group / win is far greater as darkness.

 

I would agree, that you are correct on points 1-2. I disagree on point 3. I am never in a location where I get caught in AOE. If I am not in the center pack with everyone else why would I get caught.

 

Deceptions ramp up is exactly 2 CD's. VS x2/shock and then I have maul or discharge with a 5 stack. Absolutely the shortest ramp up time of any assassin spec.

 

If you are playing like you do, than yes point 5 makes sense. Huttball is rough on deception. I patrol our base and their base. When you are the defender and the final scorer you can win every time. I stealth score and stealth defend all the time. In the last game I played a well-timed huttball and mass taunt allowed our runner to score. I simply camped our goal line, and beat down whoever was defending their base.

 

When I died, I would defend our base and wreck havoc on their scorers. Nothing like an overload into the fire or off the edge for the guy with the huttball.

 

As for Voidstar and Civil War, we shine there I get MVP votes on it for wrecking havoc on every range/healer there is. On Voidstar, I leave the doors to the tanks/big armors and patrol/protect them. A well timed mindtrap/stun lock on a guy looking to tap the bomber is amazing. In Civil War, I stay out of the middle and hunt the opposite end taking down the defenders and/or ranged guys attacking the middle. it's not as hard as you think.

 

 

You just play deception like a Marauder, and you should be playing it like an Assassin. HIT AND RUN! It's that easy.

[TheOpf]

The argument for Deception basically says if your team plays in a dumb way to protect you even though they should let you die, you can put up good numbers. Well, if you want that kind of treatment, you should roll a female character, because at least that might actually work..

 

 

I don't ask for heals or protection. As a deception Assassin, I should never be in a place where I am that needed. My job is to hunt healers/range and those freaking guard guys. I avoid the massive spam fest in the middle.

 

Granted, there are times where I die 6-9 times in a match because I get focused down. My healer ignores me during those times, knowing that I am going to die, and works on the others. I only get heals when I escape and heal myself or he sees me defending our base and he is returning after a death. The rest of the time it's escape self-heal and resume.

 

You are a hit and run expert, not a tank or Marauder. If you play it right it works.

[cupofwater]

Oh a BM, you must no exactly what you are talking about

[Delillo]

I would agree, that you are correct on points 1-2. I disagree on point 3. I am never in a location where I get caught in AOE. If I am not in the center pack with everyone else why would I get caught.

If you never get caught in AE you are playing so conservatively as to be ineffective. You can get caught in AE as soon as you approach a target- any target. Between AE KBs and AE mez its easy to get accidentally popped as you approach your target in the back line. There are no magical hit and run locations in voidstar. As a darkness assassin I accidentally knock opponents out of stealth all the time with withers and discharges as they approach a guarded healer that is already under attack.

 

 

Deceptions ramp up is exactly 2 CD's. VS x2/shock and then I have maul or discharge with a 5 stack. Absolutely the shortest ramp up time of any assassin spec.

Wrong comparison. Don't compare deception to darkness. Compare it to operatives. Operatives burst out of stealth is much greater and also comes with more control. A deception assassin can VSx2, shock, discharge with adrenals, and in the unlikely event that you haven't been CC'd in some form, you still need to account for the other 50% of the targets health while interrupting all healing in the process. It can be done, but it generally requires some incompetence by your opponent.

 

 

If you are playing like you do....

Congratulations. Your imagination is vivid, insulting, and inaccurate!!!

[Draeb]

Deception at the lower levels seems fine, but I'm actually growing tired of it. Yeah yeah, it can wreak some havok WHEN you have everything of cooldowns but, the majority of the time you're running to heal up for only what's a 2 second hit and run.

 

 

I'm going to give the tank spec a try mainly because my main is a tank. I feel much more useful as a tank.

[TheOpf]

If you never get caught in AE you are playing so conservatively as to be ineffective. You can get caught in AE as soon as you approach a target- any target. Between AE KBs and AE mez its easy to get accidentally popped as you approach your target in the back line. There are no magical hit and run locations in voidstar. As a darkness assassin I accidentally knock opponents out of stealth all the time with withers and discharges as they approach a guarded healer that is already under attack.

 

I will have to agree with you here. I get randomly knocked out of stealth from time to time. I probably play very conservatively due to my lack of a desire to suffer from the common affliction of fighting 3v1. When you said AE, I assumed you were talking about damage, not AE CC.

 

I will say that if I see two guys on a healer, I rarely join the fray. I will pick the Slinger or Merc who is off on his lonesome with no one stopping him. So the AE whither wouldn't affect me.

 

 

 

Wrong comparison. Don't compare deception to darkness. Compare it to operatives. Operatives burst out of stealth is much greater and also comes with more control. A deception assassin can VSx2, shock, discharge with adrenals, and in the unlikely event that you haven't been CC'd in some form, you still need to account for the other 50% of the targets health while interrupting all healing in the process. It can be done, but it generally requires some incompetence by your opponent.

 

I didn't compare Darkness and Deception. I was defending the ramp up time versus the other assassin trees. Yes an operative has some great burst out of stealth, I wish I had it. However, compared to other Assassins, mine is still better. As for the other 50 percent, it's now a matter of Low slash, Maul, force slow VSx2 shock, Maul, and discharge. with another Electrocute or Jolt to interrupt the healer. I am not perfect and often have to Force cloak and find another target, but if I harrassed him enough he isn't doing anything but running which is better for my healers and my team.

 

 

Congratulations. Your imagination is vivid, insulting, and inaccurate!!!

 

I have no idea why you said that. I am completely correct if you play with the balls to the wall style, than Darkness or other specs would suit you. From the negativity of your post the only assumption is that you routinely place yourself in positions to be ganged up on. I never said that Deception was perfect, but it's not the worst spec out there. It's very viable if played correctly.

[Delillo]

I have no idea why you said that. I am completely correct if you play with the balls to the wall style...

Exactly. Why do you keep assuming that?

 

No one is trying to play a deception assassin as a marauder. Of course I am trying to play deception as a hit n run backline ganker, I just don't find them as effective as they need to be to fulfill that role. Ergo, they don't justify their spot in a group with the current composition of WZs.

 

Every class and every spec can make a contribution. It's just a question of degree. Right now Darkness is beating out deception handily in my opinion. I also feel like operatives (currently) out perform deception assassins in that backline ganker role.

 

I'm certainly going to give deception another shot come 1.2

[Astarica]

There just aren't very many situations in a WZ where a hit and run specialist can contribute anything meaningful, and even if that's possible, an Operative is certainly better at hit & run (they actually have damaging openers) and they're not exactly a feared class.

 

Unless you're talking about Huttball where trying to approach a healer/ranged DPS in catwalk can be difficult, it really isn't that important whether you sneaked up to a healer or walked up to him. The healer expects to be attacked and his best anti melee skill, the KB, isn't even usable until someone gets to melee range. Even if he sees you walking in with a big sign that says, "I am a Deception Assassin", it's not like he'll do anything drastically different because he's going to wait until you get to melee range before he tosses you and make his counter moves. The fact you sneak up to him or not makes very little difference on how he is supposed to defend himself.

 

I really have no idea what kind of world people live in where you can attack a range/healer and not get tossed the moment you come out of stealth. And if you want to involve cooldowns, you could've done that visible if you used say Force Shroud or Force Speed.

[TheOpf]

There just aren't very many situations in a WZ where a hit and run specialist can contribute anything meaningful, and even if that's possible, an Operative is certainly better at hit & run (they actually have damaging openers) and they're not exactly a feared class..

 

You have never played with a competent Deception Assassin than. I routinely create Havoc in Civil War and Voidstar. Huttball is actually the worst possible area for Deception. The best place for us is defending the home goal or being at their goal waiting for a pass. Everything else is just as easy for any other class/tree.

 

Our strongest strength is Civil war where we can defend a node easily because no one sees us, stealth cap, and wreck havoc on all the ranged thanks to the numerous hideaways. Personally, I prefer Voidstar, but that's mainly because stealth bombing and ripping through the ranged who didn't see you is hilarious in that one.

[Astarica]

You have never played with a competent Deception Assassin than. I routinely create Havoc in Civil War and Voidstar. Huttball is actually the worst possible area for Deception. The best place for us is defending the home goal or being at their goal waiting for a pass. Everything else is just as easy for any other class/tree.

 

Our strongest strength is Civil war where we can defend a node easily because no one sees us, stealth cap, and wreck havoc on all the ranged thanks to the numerous hideaways. Personally, I prefer Voidstar, but that's mainly because stealth bombing and ripping through the ranged who didn't see you is hilarious in that one.

 

Stealth strategy pretty much never works against any halfway decent competition. Defending with a Deception Assassin solo is a disaster in the making unless you think the enemy is so stupid that they really think nobody is defending. Whoever is capping it is going to be someone who believes he can defeat a Darkness Assassin or an Operative defending the node stealthed, and he'd be pleasantly surprised to find the opposition to be much weaker than he anticipated. You can do okay as the second defender while stealthed but any 2 players should be able to withstand at least 3 attackers given the advantage in respawn time so that's not saying much there.

[wtfnonamefree]

Oh a BM, you must no exactly what you are talking about

 

Yeah, op could have just said 'dinged 50 recently' instead xD

 

Also, what's that 'super survivability' we're supposed to have there? I must have missed it and would like some as well...

Edited March 27, 2012 by wtfnonamefree

[jbuschell]

This thread clearly shows how underated madness/balance is, after the op there was not mention from anyone else about madness. Everyone just wants to fix yo yo saber spec and.play deception. Imo balance/madness is very good in capable hands, maybe its because I was a full madness sorc and played a shadow priest in wow but watching dots and procs is second nature to me and this spec puts out some good pressure. I think what it needs a little tuning to its survivability and it will be beast, but everyone would still play Darkness or deception.

[AetherMcLoud]

Oh a BM, you must no exactly what you are talking about

 

This.

[Thankyjack]

You can't spec into pocket healer lol. I did state that if there is a healer and a tank guarding it does well, but I don't think class should depend on having someone following them. And yes, op/smugg can kill someone within their stunlock, and they have heals as dps also, lol

 

I read this and thought it was a necroed thread. Who still dies to OPs within the "stun lock?"

[Waise]

This thread clearly shows how underated madness/balance is, after the op there was not mention from anyone else about madness. Everyone just wants to fix yo yo saber spec and.play deception. Imo balance/madness is very good in capable hands, maybe its because I was a full madness sorc and played a shadow priest in wow but watching dots and procs is second nature to me and this spec puts out some good pressure. I think what it needs a little tuning to its survivability and it will be beast, but everyone would still play Darkness or deception.

 

I play madness, and I love the challenge it gives.

 

also, yes I am a bm, but would being a warlord make my opinions suddenly valid? No, the people on this post will just go "lol illum farmer" so how about you give constructive thoughts instead of just trying to discredit someone's opinions?

 

also to the person who mentioned ops not able to kill people within the 6 second stun, I know an op on my server who does that to anyone in less than heavy armor.

[cadgar]

without rated bgs the spec really doesnt matter. i just play my daily 10 bgs for the ilum daily in my deception pve spec with my full pve gear (0 expertise). 9 out of those 10 i get 9 to 11 medals by just zerging.

 

when rated bgs are out you can discuss about specs but then u have to discuss your teamcomp as well