The Status Quo Has Been Restored

[ProfessorWalsh]

This is all opinion , you see she was PUBLISHED, this means people looked over the workings , canon , and history of such characters used.

A person has to go through alot of checks before anything they write is published, its not as simple as handing over a book and everyone saying "Cannot fix this because it is already done" sorry

 

You have no idea about the stunts Traviss pulled while writing Star Wars. She would intentionally turn things in at the last minute so they couldn't be properly proof read. She was also guilty of outright lying to Lucas Arts fact checkers by stating that she made a "small change" to something then, when it was looked at after the fact Lucas Arts had to back peddle and release entire articles just to retcon her work because her small change was absolutely freaking huge.

 

Also Lucas Arts fired her from writing Star Wars and cancelled the books she was going to write. Lucas Arts doesn't do that unless someone makes George angry.

 

Note:

Karen Traviss is the only author in the entire history of the EU to be fired off of a Star Wars project.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[ProfessorWalsh]

Aximand, Rayla...I'm getting really frustrated here. You are stating OPINIONS. Your OPINION is that she ignored canon. My OPINION is that she didn't. I can make the case for my side. You can make the case for yours. But in the end, it's impossible to state an OPINION as a fact and let it go as such. Please stop trying, and we can let this thread die.

 

Why was this thread even created? Honestly, what was Walsh trying to accomplish besides gloating over the changes and restarting the debate?

 

No, she seriously ignored canon, that isn't an opinion that is a fact.

 

She actually wrote in one of her LotF novels that Jaina had never faced an enemy that had lightsaber resistant armor and weapons.

 

Let me state that:

 

The Sword of the Jedi who developed the techniques to fight enemies who couldn't be sensed in the Force and who had lightsaber resistant weapons and armor had never faced an enemy that had lightsaber resistant armor and weapons.

[Kilikaa]

Not sure if anyone else has pointed this out, but the Yuzhaan Vongs armor was rendered less resistant to lightsabers. At first it was LIVING vondun Crab armor. But after a battle in which the armor became coated in a pollen from a tree (can't recall the name of it right now nor the planet the battle took place) they had to switch to non-living armor because the pollen caused the living armor to literally crush it's wearer due to, I believe, some kind of allergic reaction.

 

That said the Beskar'gam armor Traviss created was as resistant as the LIVING crab armor of the Vong, if not more so. So for her to say that Jedi, especially Jaina, had never seen something like it before is an outright lie on her part. There were other things that KT put in her books that bothered me, particularly the way she handled Jaina and Mara (who are my two favorite characters ever). I like Mandalorians but I believe she was making them way too powerful. The Fate series brought them back down off that pedestal.

 

The way they were handled in the Legacy novel Invinicable was perfect. They weren't so powerful and the Beskar armor, while very resistant, was beaten by blaster fire as well as Jacen's subtle use of Shatterpoint.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Not sure if anyone else has pointed this out, but the Yuzhaan Vongs armor was rendered less resistant to lightsabers. At first it was LIVING vondun Crab armor. But after a battle in which the armor became coated in a pollen from a tree (can't recall the name of it right now nor the planet the battle took place) they had to switch to non-living armor because the pollen caused the living armor to literally crush it's wearer due to, I believe, some kind of allergic reaction.

 

That said the Beskar'gam armor Traviss created was as resistant as the LIVING crab armor of the Vong, if not more so. So for her to say that Jedi, especially Jaina, had never seen something like it before is an outright lie on her part. There were other things that KT put in her books that bothered me, particularly the way she handled Jaina and Mara (who are my two favorite characters ever). I like Mandalorians but I believe she was making them way too powerful. The Fate series brought them back down off that pedestal.

 

The way they were handled in the Legacy novel Invinicable was perfect. They weren't so powerful and the Beskar armor, while very resistant, was beaten by blaster fire as well as Jacen's subtle use of Shatterpoint.

 

This is incorrect. There was no such event that made them use non-living armor, the 'vong don't do that, nor was the armor ever depicted as being less lightsaber resistant. The entire concept of using a non-living device goes against the entire religious basis for the 'Vong who would literally rather die than ever do something that they see as blasphemous.

 

 

Please stop trying to defend Traviss here, it has long been documented and admitted by Traviss herself that she made the mistake due to never having read a Star Wars book before.

Edited March 27, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[ObiWanBaikonur]

I haven't read any of the books in question, but I think the crux of the problem doesn't come down to the content, but the implementation of it.

 

Let me rephrase.

 

No one here has an issue with Traviss (or anyone else) trying to bring the Jedi back down to earth. In order to create tension in the stories, there needs to be something at stake. The Jedi need to be vulnerable. Arguably the best way of creating that vulnerability would be to reign them in a little. Make them more human, more mortal. How can you do this? Easy! Make them more fallible. Jedi make mistakes. Jedi die in accidents. Jedi can get shot in the back when they're not looking. Jedi can get caught in explosions. Etc.

 

How did Traviss do this? Make the Mandalorians impervious to Jedi super-powers. Rather than decreasing the Jedi's super-powers, Traviss beefed up the Mandalorians. To one-up the Jedi is somewhat of a simplistic, childish way of countering them. It is far easier to devise some plot device that lets the Mandalorians become Force- and lightsaber-proof than to conceive of scaled-down Jedi characters.

 

I think that Traviss's choice was a poor one and an immersion-breaking one for many. It sounds like her work would have been much better regarded had she chosen a more challenging narrative strategy in dealing with the overpowered Jedi.

 

To me, this is a matter of narrative choice more than it is a matter of who-can-beat-a-Jedi.

[TKMaster]

I haven't read any of the books in question, but I think the crux of the problem doesn't come down to the content, but the implementation of it.

 

Let me rephrase.

 

No one here has an issue with Traviss (or anyone else) trying to bring the Jedi back down to earth. In order to create tension in the stories, there needs to be something at stake. The Jedi need to be vulnerable. Arguably the best way of creating that vulnerability would be to reign them in a little. Make them more human, more mortal. How can you do this? Easy! Make them more fallible. Jedi make mistakes. Jedi die in accidents. Jedi can get shot in the back when they're not looking. Jedi can get caught in explosions. Etc.

 

How did Traviss do this? Make the Mandalorians impervious to Jedi super-powers. Rather than decreasing the Jedi's super-powers, Traviss beefed up the Mandalorians. To one-up the Jedi is somewhat of a simplistic, childish way of countering them. It is far easier to devise some plot device that lets the Mandalorians become Force- and lightsaber-proof than to conceive of scaled-down Jedi characters.

 

I think that Traviss's choice was a poor one and an immersion-breaking one for many. It sounds like her work would have been much better regarded had she chosen a more challenging narrative strategy in dealing with the overpowered Jedi.

 

To me, this is a matter of narrative choice more than it is a matter of who-can-beat-a-Jedi.

 

I agree mostly.

 

She wasnt the only one that beefed them up though, hell, the Mandalorian wars had them slaughtering Jedi wholesale and Jango was beating Jedi to death with his bare hands.

 

The remedy to that was Revan to the former and Dooku to the latter. The Jedi mentioned were powerful and exeptional, now every Jedi in the EU is at that level.

 

Also Mandalorians werent immune to the force and Beskar'gam has always been saber proof Traviss didnt make that up.

[Alric_Annondu]

Well, for those that don't know, there was an author by the name of Karen Traviss who came into Star Wars a while back. She had a personal obsession with Mandalorians and an agenda to make them the best thing since Lucas invented the lightsaber.

 

She made them better fighters pound for pound than Jedi.

She made them have weapons and armor that the Jedi couldn't match.

She gave them the best starfighters in Star Wars.

She pretty much Mary Sue'd the entire Mandalorian culture.

 

Thankfully... For the franchise... The Mandalorians, in canon, have been returned to what they should have been thanks to FotJ.

 

1. She made them better fighters pound for pound than Jedi.

 

In the series Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi we saw numerous clashes between Jedi and Mandalorians. The Mandos always had a numerical advantage and the Mandos always suffered losses. While we saw dozens of Mandalorian deaths we saw a grand total of one Jedi death despite numerous attempts and ambushes. The one Jedi death was an untrained, unarmed, Jedi apprentice who was all of fifteen years old. This categorically reduced the claims of Mandos down to being just that... Claims.

 

2. She made them have weapons and armor that the Jedi couldn't match.

 

Not only did we see lightsabers easily go around Beskar in FotJ, by aiming for the less armored joints and such, but we also saw them go through Beskar after several whacks. This is good because it makes Mando Iron decent but no longer nigh indestructible and a couple of whacks with a lightsaber still means a dead Mando.

 

However to sweeten the pot we were shown that Jedi can use the Force to shatter Beskar. (Shown by Jacen Solo and Luke Skywalker in Troy Denning's part of LotF) but they can also use techniques to pass right through it as was shown by an unarmed Barv in the ambush the Mandalorians sprang on them in another installment of Denning's run on LotF.)

 

3. They had the best Starfighters.

 

In FotJ it was revealed that the Republic now has fighters that are pound for pound better than the new Mando ships. As stated in the novel they were able " to go head to head with them and come out on top."

 

The Mando culture in Star Wars is now back to where it should be. They are not on par with Jedi or Sith but are the best of the best when it comes to mercenaries. They fetch top credits and they perform admirably. They are guns for hire that are more than worth hiring when one needs it.

 

All in all with the final nail in the coffin we once again have Star Wars back to the normal status quo!

 

 

>Mandalorians

>best starfighters

 

The mandos couldn't build a good starfighter if you gave them the best stuff in the galaxy.

 

And yes, the Mandos ARE on par with Jedi and Sith.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I agree mostly.

 

She wasnt the only one that beefed them up though, hell, the Mandalorian wars had them slaughtering Jedi wholesale and Jango was beating Jedi to death with his bare hands.

 

The remedy to that was Revan to the former and Dooku to the latter. The Jedi mentioned were powerful and exeptional, now every Jedi in the EU is at that level.

 

Also Mandalorians werent immune to the force and Beskar'gam has always been saber proof Traviss didnt make that up.

 

Actually the Mandalorian Wars never depicted the Mandalorians slaughtering Jedi wholesale. The Jedi didn't even become involved until Revan.

 

As to Jango, yes, he was able to do that. He was also defeated by Count Dooku in a 1 on 1. He was also forced to flee from Obiwan in a 1 on 1. He was also killed by Mace Windu in a 1 on 1.

 

Also, at the battle you speak of, it was the Battle of Galladrian, 300 Mandalorians vs 30 Jedi. Jango killed 11 Jedi, the other 299 Mandalorians combined killed 1.

[ProfessorWalsh]

>Mandalorians

>best starfighters

 

The mandos couldn't build a good starfighter if you gave them the best stuff in the galaxy.

 

And yes, the Mandos ARE on par with Jedi and Sith.

 

Traviss gave them the best Starfighter in the Galaxy. We were told they were faster than anything else ever constructed and they were nigh indestructible with better weapons than a Stealth X.

 

Also... No. Mandos aren't on Par with the Jedi or the Sith. They have been shown over the course of the last 18 novels, in numerous engagements (between both LotF and FotJ) to have not been able to kill a single Jedi despite in each and every actual encounter having the element of surprise and superior firepower.

[TKMaster]

Actually the Mandalorian Wars never depicted the Mandalorians slaughtering Jedi wholesale. The Jedi didn't even become involved until Revan.

 

As to Jango, yes, he was able to do that. He was also defeated by Count Dooku in a 1 on 1. He was also forced to flee from Obiwan in a 1 on 1. He was also killed by Mace Windu in a 1 on 1.

 

Also, at the battle you speak of, it was the Battle of Galladrian, 300 Mandalorians vs 30 Jedi. Jango killed 11 Jedi, the other 299 Mandalorians combined killed 1.

 

Dude you have on helluva stick up your *** and a superiority complex, just because you have a hotlink to wookiepedia doesnt make you some guru, you didnt really say anything i didnt except your odd statement of what i said about the Mandalorian wars (wich isnt even correct). And tbh your pretty much just a jedi mark fanboy.

Edited March 27, 2012 by TKMaster

[Aximand]

Dude you have on helluva stick up your *** and a superiority complex, just because you have a hotlink to wookiepedia doesnt make you some guru, you didnt really say anything i didnt except your odd misinterpritation of what i said about the Mandalorian wars (wich isnt even correct). And tbh your pretty much just a jedi mark fanboy.

 

Professor Walsh doesn't even use Wookieepedia.

[TKMaster]

Professor Walsh doesn't even use Wookieepedia.

 

Thats ******* sad then.

Edited March 27, 2012 by TKMaster

[Aximand]

Thats ******* sad then.

 

Not really. He owns all of the source books that Wookieepedia gets their information from, he doesn't need the website.

[Alric_Annondu]

Traviss gave them the best Starfighter in the Galaxy. We were told they were faster than anything else ever constructed and they were nigh indestructible with better weapons than a Stealth X.

 

Also... No. Mandos aren't on Par with the Jedi or the Sith. They have been shown over the course of the last 18 novels, in numerous engagements (between both LotF and FotJ) to have not been able to kill a single Jedi despite in each and every actual encounter having the element of surprise and superior firepower.

 

 

you know, the whole "The jedi always win" motif.

 

That's kind of a major factor.

 

Watch the hope trailer.

 

Now switch it to mando attacking jedi.

 

that's how it should ideally go, and how BW has decided that non force users are on par with force users.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Thats ******* sad then.

 

Wookieepedia is an inaccurate source on the best of days. I own every single Star Wars book. I have read all of them.

 

Am I a nerd? Oh yes.

[Aximand]

Wookieepedia is an inaccurate source on the best of days. I own every single Star Wars book. I have read all of them.

 

Am I a nerd? Oh yes.

 

I think he's too busy getting that crap off of his face to respond. Looks like egg.

[Alric_Annondu]

Wookieepedia is an inaccurate source on the best of days. I own every single Star Wars book. I have read all of them.

 

Am I a nerd? Oh yes.

 

 

>wookiepedia

>innacurate

 

How and why.

[ProfessorWalsh]

you know, the whole "The jedi always win" motif.

 

That's kind of a major factor.

 

Watch the hope trailer.

 

Now switch it to mando attacking jedi.

 

that's how it should ideally go, and how BW has decided that non force users are on par with force users.

 

Nice try in using the BioWare game mechanics as your scape goat. Game mechanics however are never canon.

 

You should rewatch the Hope trailer by the by. Yes, a Sith gets knocked over by a Trooper (not killed) and another gets pushed aside (not killed) we see many Troopers die by the hand of the Sith. In fact until the Jedi showed up the Troopers were all about to be executed.

 

It shouldn't ideally be everyone has a chance against Jedi in canon. The reason why is that then defeats the point of Jedi in canon. Why spend your entire life training and require a special connection to a supernatural energy source when 2 years of training in the military will let you match up. It is stupid. If that were the case, which canonically it isn't, there would be no Jedi left.

 

The Mandalorians are not canonically a match for Jedi or Sith on a regular basis. They never have been. Traviss tried to make them but every other author in Star Wars said no and spent an entire book series specifically fixing that to restore the status quo.

 

It was finally restored in the last book in FotJ when Boba Fett had to have his life saved by a Jedi because he was captured and helpless and about to be devoured.

[ProfessorWalsh]

>wookiepedia

>innacurate

 

How and why.

 

Wookieepedia is a fan edited source. Often you will notice that articles in Wookieepedia flip flop back and forth and people insert conjecture without backing their statements up or without referencing.

 

I have to go to work in a minute but one prime example is the article on Boba Fett.

 

In the article on Boba Fett it claims that Boba left Jaden Korr after Korr destroyed his stockpiles, "Because there was no bounty on him."

 

In the actual game that is taken from that is indeed what Boba Fett says, but as we have explained at length what a character says is not canon, it is only canon that it was said. In fact since Boba Fett had been attacking Jaden Korr the entire time and was unable to stop him from detonating all 7 weapon stockpiles and then engaged Korr in a brief fight before deciding to make that statement and leave it makes little sense for that statement to be accurate.

 

Then if we take Boba Fett's "on screen" track record against Jedi it isn't that impressive. He was unable to take down Luke Skywalker at Jabba's sail barge, in fact he jumped into melee range with a lightsaber wielding Jedi (brilliant!) and then missed a shot by a minimum of 4 yards after aiming for 3 seconds, then missed a second shot (but in that one he was jostled from behind) and he has never, in the entire history of Star Wars, been shown killing a Jedi.

 

He makes the claim that he has done it, and he has a reputation for it, but there is no proof that he actually has. Even once possessing a lightsaber and fighting Darth Vader (only to be defeated when Vader revealed he wasn't using the Force, at which time he promptly incapacitated Fett) doesn't speak highly of Fett's Jedi killing prowess.

 

Yet, the Wookieepedia entry states that he fled because of the lack of a Bounty. When it should state that he fled after claiming that while adding a note that we do not know if this is true or not.

[Alric_Annondu]

Wookieepedia is a fan edited source. Often you will notice that articles in Wookieepedia flip flop back and forth and people insert conjecture without backing their statements up or without referencing.

 

I have to go to work in a minute but one prime example is the article on Boba Fett.

 

In the article on Boba Fett it claims that Boba left Jaden Korr after Korr destroyed his stockpiles, "Because there was no bounty on him."

 

In the actual game that is taken from that is indeed what Boba Fett says, but as we have explained at length what a character says is not canon, it is only canon that it was said. In fact since Boba Fett had been attacking Jaden Korr the entire time and was unable to stop him from detonating all 7 weapon stockpiles and then engaged Korr in a brief fight before deciding to make that statement and leave it makes little sense for that statement to be accurate.

 

Then if we take Boba Fett's "on screen" track record against Jedi it isn't that impressive. He was unable to take down Luke Skywalker at Jabba's sail barge, in fact he jumped into melee range with a lightsaber wielding Jedi (brilliant!) and then missed a shot by a minimum of 4 yards after aiming for 3 seconds, then missed a second shot (but in that one he was jostled from behind) and he has never, in the entire history of Star Wars, been shown killing a Jedi.

 

He makes the claim that he has done it, and he has a reputation for it, but there is no proof that he actually has. Even once possessing a lightsaber and fighting Darth Vader (only to be defeated when Vader revealed he wasn't using the Force, at which time he promptly incapacitated Fett) doesn't speak highly of Fett's Jedi killing prowess.

Yet, the Wookieepedia entry states that he fled because of the lack of a Bounty. When it should state that he fled after claiming that while adding a note that we do not know if this is true or not.

 

Bull, if you fight vader and live, i'm pretty sure you can beat the tar out of a couple thousand jedi. One on One fights yeah, but come on man.

 

It's Vader we're talking about here, not some puny padawan.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Alric_Annondu

[ObiWanBaikonur]

I agree mostly.

 

She wasnt the only one that beefed them up though, hell, the Mandalorian wars had them slaughtering Jedi wholesale and Jango was beating Jedi to death with his bare hands.

 

The remedy to that was Revan to the former and Dooku to the latter. The Jedi mentioned were powerful and exeptional, now every Jedi in the EU is at that level.

 

Also Mandalorians werent immune to the force and Beskar'gam has always been saber proof Traviss didnt make that up.

 

Like I said, I'm not terribly familiar with Traviss. My accusation remains the same, whether it is concentrated in Traviss or diffused over a number of authors (Lucas included, perhaps?). The solution to overpowered characters should not be to overpower other characters. This can be an OK occasional solution--Arguably Revan and Dooku should be overpowered, right?

 

The issue is when "grunts" get over powered. Grunts can be regular Mandalorians or regular Jedi. We end up with an arms race of imaginary and excessive powers. That's a silly and narratively weak way to proceed.

Edited March 27, 2012 by ObiWanBaikonur

[Aximand]

Bull, if you fight vader and live, i'm pretty sure you can beat the tar out of a couple thousand jedi. One on One fights yeah, but come on man.

 

It's Vader we're talking about here, not some puny padawan.

 

Vader was toying with him the whole damn time. He wasn't even using the Force for most of the fight. Or did you completely block that part out?

[Alric_Annondu]

Vader was toying with him the whole damn time. He wasn't even using the Force for most of the fight. Or did you completely block that part out?

 

He had vader at his mercy at the end, and decided on not killing him.

[Aximand]

He had vader at his mercy at the end, and decided on not killing him.

 

He decided not to shoot him because he knew that his blaster didn't have the power to penetrate Vader's Durasteel armor, if I'm remembering the scene correctly.

[Alric_Annondu]

He decided not to shoot him because he knew that his blaster didn't have the power to penetrate Vader's Durasteel armor, if I'm remembering the scene correctly.

 

Nah, it was because he didn't want the empire hounding him for killing sidious' pet.