Lower DPS, then pls add utility

[gazha]

I can *almost* understand changing pyro spec. PPA was sometimes powerful if you got lucky rolls. But PTech was such a one trick pvp pony it made sense to me. A couple other classes can do equal dps with much more utility.

 

My big concern with nerfing it is that they didnt add in utility other classes enjoy for the tradeoff.

 

I'd love a KB - only 3 classes don't have one. I'd love charge - only the tank PT spec gets it (especially with the nerf there's absolutely no way to get charge while in dps mode PT). I'd love survivability of a self heal that was substantial like mara / tankaskin, and even the one we have (10%/3min) doesn't count towards heals in pvp like the other classes. Jugg gets even more mobility. Mara and 'Sin get quick stealth escape. I'd love good DPS like 'Sin gets in tank mode, or incredible mobility of a jugg in tank mode (TWO charges, friendly charge, AND kb).

 

Basically I gave up all that utility - kb, heals, charge - for good dps.

 

If we need to balance that down, please add in something else. A charge that works in dps (seems obviouls for melee dps, just dumb you can't get it). Or a KB to add utility in huttball (conflicts with charge, sure - but give ONE - juggs get both PLUS a friendly charge).

 

I am sad every time I contemplate playing the PTech now, it's a shame.

[Pendrych]

Now consider a few things that PTs have that the classes you noted don't:

 

• Grapple (only deep tank-specced Assassins have an equivalent, and a shield-specced PT has a vastly improved version).
  
• Electro-Dart (30m stun, greater in range than what the assassin gets at 10m, and juggernauts and marauders don't have one, period).
  
• Carbonize (an AoE stun, and on a short cooldown as well)
  
• Range. Yes, many of our abilities are geared towards 10m or less, but Pyro in particular is perfectly capable of knocking a chunk of someone's health off at 30m or finishing off a wounded opponent at range.
  

 

You've also got a few wires crossed. Tank-specced Juggernauts have one charge. The second is in the DPS Rage tree, which admittedly is popular for PvP. Juggernauts specced into Rage typically don't have the points to invest in getting their major defensive cooldown (in the Immortal tree) or stun (ditto).

 

Like every other advanced class, we have a certain package of utility abilities - but from what I've seen in the WZs, most PTs don't use theirs, or don't use them well. If you'd rather have a Marauder or a Juggernaut's package than the Powertech's, you're playing the wrong class.

[SneiK]

Carbonize? Hmm, I remember this one melee class that has AoE stun that is twice as long...Also, pyro does not get any speed buffs...Oh well. Let's not make this into 'who has what'

 

Still, the OP is kinda right...All we have is that dps...In pugs you can see this. Even if I roll 700k dps, I have very little to do with winning or losing a warzone. On my JK alt? Sure...Not much stats at the end of the game...But I can win the games for my team.

Edited March 21, 2012 by SneiK

[Pendrych]

Carbonize? Hmm, I remember this one melee class that has AoE stun that is twice as long...Also, pyro does not get any speed buffs...Oh well. Let's not make this into 'who has what'

 

Still, the OP is kinda right...All we have is that dps...In pugs you can see this. Even if I roll 700k dps, I have very little to do with winning or losing a warzone. On my JK alt? Sure...Not much stats at the end of the game...But I can win the games for my team.

 

Then you're doing it wrong. Carbonize is a game-changer. It lets your team clinch kills, particularly when the opposing heal crew clusters up, which is pretty often. It's mildly easier to use in a Shield Tech or AP spec, but works as intended with full Pyro as well.

 

Also, are you referring to Flash-Bang? That's a mez, not a stun. Yes, it lasts a long time, but it also immediately breaks on damage - so it won't affect targets with a DoT rolling on them and requires that your team leave secondary targets alone. They're different tools, and both are extremely effective when used appropriately.

[SneiK]

I thought we were talking about pyros here? What you describe, work relatively good with a CHARGE. Not pyro. Times when you have enemies around you like that (and teammates)...Not much, and by the time you get there, they're gone.

 

EDIT: And here's a game I just played...Alderaan, our 2 top dmg dealers did...Same as their ENTIRE team. And our best heal did almost DOUBLE THEIR TEAM. And no, we did actually try to cap, but if you are smart and take a look at the class combination we had, and what they had (Most sages were shadows). We just stood no chance...(We did have a lucky break, so that's why we didn't lose 600-0)

 

Take a look at the DAMAGE and HEALING compared

 

http://s1068.photobucket.com/albums/u454/suneiku/?action=view&current=dmgnotmatters.png

 

Our dmg: 1,8 Mil, Our heal: 1,0 Mil

 

Their dmg: 1,1 Mil, Their heal: 380k

 

Now...You still wanna balance the classes around the scoreboard?

 

...And...'Clinch' kills? Kills are even more less important...

 

Our kills: 331, Theirs: 127.

Edited March 22, 2012 by SneiK

[Pendrych]

I am talking about Pyro. I'm currently running 2/13/26 in PvP, actually, and I use Carbonize on close to cooldown. I do the same when I run as 19/22/0, and with Iron Fist. With or without Jet Charge, it's an amazing ability.

 

Stunning an entire heal team for 2.5-3s helps knock one of those healers down if you time it right, and can often lead to a domino effect as the opposing team struggles to compensate. Or how about buying your a teammate 2.5-3s to complete placing a charge in Voidstar or capping a point in Alderaan? Giving your ball carrier a lead on getting away from the pack? The PT is a class with an incredibly flexible engagement profile. If you aren't getting to where you need to be to use your CCs and utility abilities until "they're gone," then you need to work on anticipating where you need to be.

 

The OP is asking for utility abilities that other classes already have. If someone isn't using the PT's utility tools in the first place and is envious of the sets that other classes get, they're playing the wrong class. If they simply want PTs to have every utility ability in the game baseline, they're being unrealistic.

 

Edit: The scoreboard is only part of the picture. If you're outnumbering their kills almost 2:1 and still lost, your team wasn't killing the right targets or taking good advantage of the losses they were inflicting. Sometimes kills aren't the way to go to win. I had an Alderaan win earlier today that we got by the skin of our teeth, because while a Juggernaut was capping west, I intercepted two commandos and delayed them long enough for the cap before we killed them both. My main tools? Grapple, Electro-Dart, and Carbonize. I was running in my Pyro spec. That cap let us squeak out an 80-0 victory. If I'd simply opened up with "Pyro tools," I'd have killed one and the other would have gotten in range to interrupt my teammate before we confirmed the cap.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Pendrych

[Altephor]

I will take a hit in DPS if they give me a CC.

[gazha]

So, basically your answer is carbonize? A single, AE stun?

 

It's a nice ability. But with resolve I'm lucky if it affects 50% of the crowd. Then many of those folks immediately break out. So I think you're being extremely optimistic when you call it a game changer that impacts a whole crowd.

 

Would you agree AOE KB every 20s (unresistable/unbreakable) is FAR more powerful than AE stun every 45s that can be resolved or cc-broken easily? Especially in Huttball, the most common game - a 2.5s stun very very very rarely is enough to stop a touchdown. Sometimes - but 90% of the time a KB can do it.

 

Single target grapple is equivalent to single target push of jugg at 1m timer, but then jugg also gets 1 or 2 charges which also can be PB interrupt if spec'd. And Grapple is again impacted by Resolve - often I try to use it and fail - a charge never fails (excluding LOS which impacts everything).

 

My point is that a single stun is not equivalent to the tools that most other classes get. I understand not everyone has an AE stun, and I don't want every class to be alike at all. But look at a few examples:

 

- Marauder: 1 or 2 charges (including a PB charge/interrupt if spec'd), large self-heals (50k/wz easily), stealth escape from combat. Agreed, no KB or good stuns.

 

- PT: Grapple, single stun, AE stun. Charge if deep in tank tree (meaning 0 dps esp with 1.2)

 

- Sin: Grapple, AOE KB, stealth, player cc from stealth, stealth escape, sprint

 

- Jugg: 1 or 2 charges (incl a PB charge if spec'd), friendly charge if spec'd, KB. All of this with good DPS especially, except the friendly charge. Plus they now get a 2s stun on their charge with 1.2.

 

- Sorc: dont really need to make a point here for dps + utility I hope

 

- Any healing class - ability to LOS And selfheal is a massive utility in WZs. All have stun and KB and self-shield. But sure, they have other balance issues too.

 

I'm OK with losing some DPS. But I dont think we have nearly the utility / fun factor on WZ in dps mode, that seems clear to me. I didnt say "none", but I don't think carbonize really makes your point here. It's just not as useful as some tools other classes get.

 

I don't want it all. But if you are taking away a lot of my dps, and adding heat as well, please give me something else. Give me a single target kb. Give me charge that I can access from dps (like all the other melee dps classes). Give me a better self heal like mara / assassin. Just one of those. I don't see this as a ridiculous point.

[SneiK]

I agree with above. Utility/Mobility would be great, if we can no longer be the war machine that can't really move. I really don't care about dps once ladder hits.

 

And Pendrych, you obviously ignored my point. Stealth in alderaan, hellooo? Not important??? Because Powertech Combat Tech armor set bonus was bugged for 3 months, I couldn't go that route, and didn't go for cd reduction on grapple but full dps (I had to farm gear twice, yeyyy). You did, so where you win in utility, I win in dps. You might feel different than I therefore.

 

Shadows can speed/stealth/ defend mid even if we have our whole team trying to cap it. And with 4, no matter who we kill, they will be fast enough to interrupt us every time. I did scan some, I did try cc those that I was able, but the utility in that area was just too strong to their favour. Yes we could've won if they played bad, but they played both good and had a class advantage (we were lacking sins, or any stealth actually->Our moves were easily predicted).

Edited March 22, 2012 by SneiK

[Pendrych]

You're both missing my point. I focused on Carbonize because of SneiK's comment that it is unusable/unviable without Jet Charge, which is patently untrue.

 

We have a utility package. So do other classes. Ours is pretty darned good, particularly given that a lot of it is baseline. Assassins and Juggernauts have to spec 21 points into their trees for a pull and a single-target stun, respectively, and neither have access to the talents we have that enhance those abilities.

 

If the tradeoff for Pyro's burst isn't as great to you anymore, run Iron Fist. We're working on a spectrum - it's part of the talent system.

 

If you'd rather have the Assassin array than the Powertech's selection, level an Assassin. Incidentally, my main MMO partner runs one as her main, and while she loves the tools she has, she's consistently jealous of our AoE capabilities, both in PvP and PvE, as well as the fact that we have two stuns, one with a 30m range, and didn't have to wait until level 30 to get our pull. But she also understands there are tradeoffs involved for the cool stuff she gets, which you've both outlined above.

 

I agree with two things the two of you have said so far.

 

First, that good play can only compensate so far against an ideal team make-up. That's just luck of the draw until rated WZs come out. I would point out though that if your team in Alderaan was only zerging one point and expecting to kill everyone before defenders could return, you were doing it wrong if all of you kept pushing after realizing you couldn't sweep it. That's when misdirection comes into play.

 

Second, sorcerers. Yeah. My friend I mentioned earlier? Her husband runs one, and he freely admits he's broken. They get too complete a utility package, and very early to boot, unlike most other classes which don't start feeling like they have a toolkit until they're approaching 30. However, I would put our utility package on par with what Assassins, Juggernauts, Marauders, Operatives, and their mirrors get. We're ahead of DPS Mercs. Snipers rely more on range and their openers than actual CC, at least the ones I've run into - but as I pointed out earlier, range is a form of utility in and of itself.

 

To forestall the inevitable cries that my utility is being carried by my friends', I queue plenty of solo matches. In fact, I've done the run from Valor 30 (when I hit 50) to 58 as of today almost entirely by queuing solo.

[SneiK]

I didn't say it is not viable without charge, but you are not gona be able to use it as offensively as you could with a charge (and as effectively as you described).

 

I use carb to defend healers and other squishy guys (such as myself), if they get jumped by a bunch of melee. We differ in playstyle I guess.

 

And yes, I also miss the fun when playing other classes. But that 'fun' (range, taunts, dmg etc) does not win the warzones. All we are saying is that the PT utility, while fun, does nothing to winning compared to the other classes. Infact, the amount of pyros are directly proportional to the odds of losing the game

Edited March 22, 2012 by SneiK