Defense Rating and Knights/Marauders

[Ibiza-Vin]

Keep in mind that if you do change out your mods, make sure you save the originals. They are re-itemizing the end game gear, but only gear with the original mods implanted will be altered when 1.2 goes live.

 

So make sure to put all the originals back in before the patch.

[EverStryke]

According to the game descriptions below is how it works if read and interpreted properly...

 

 

Defense = The chance to dodge, deflect or avoid damage all together.

 

This means "I MAY get hit at some point if luck runs out"

 

Shield = The chance that an attack will have its damage reduced if it hits you.

 

This means, when you get hit, you still take damage if you get hit, it's just reduced (% determined by the absorption rating you carry). In a perfect world, one would simply increase Defense to avoid needing shield period, but it's not a perfect world and you will get hit sooner or later, no matter how high your defense is. PvE or PvP, it makes no difference so prepare yourself by increasing shield and absorption and you will thank yourself.

 

Absorption = % of damage reduced WHEN an attack is absorbed by your shield.

 

This means, if you manage to get hit, due to your defense not being high enough, the aborption % is the determining factor as to how much damage you take when you do get hit.

 

 

I hope this helps to clarify some of the confusion going on.

 

FYI - On a personal note, I subscribe to feathering out the numbers equally in an effort to maximize effectiveness for those not to fun moments we all face eventually as a tank. A well rounded tank is the one that survives most of the time impo.

Edited April 2, 2012 by EverStryke

[MithasB]

Defense first, then shield/absorption. I would rather not get hit then take a reduction when hit. I didn't see in anyones post that you can't mitigate a crit with shield, which I read somewhere. So your only chance is to avoid it using defense.

 

Overall you need a balance but defense should be your top priority as a tank.

[prophanitix]

You want to be sitting as close to 30% Defense as possible, My Assassin tank sits at 27.90% Def chance unbuffed, using a stim pushes that value to 30%.

 

Then you want to increase shield chance, Absorb is the absolute last value of the 3 you should be pursuing.

 

Ie :

Chance to outright not take any damage !

Chance to increase the reduction of damage!

Amount of extra DR on successful shield !

 

Ideally you will be sitting around 30% avoid chance, 50% shield chance.

 

Pursuing Absorb over DEF or Shield Chance is nuts. (assuming you are not over 30%/50%)

[RDeanOU]

You want to be sitting as close to 30% Defense as possible, My Assassin tank sits at 27.90% Def chance unbuffed, using a stim pushes that value to 30%.

 

Then you want to increase shield chance, Absorb is the absolute last value of the 3 you should be pursuing.

 

Ie :

Chance to outright not take any damage !

Chance to increase the reduction of damage!

Amount of extra DR on successful shield !

 

Ideally you will be sitting around 30% avoid chance, 50% shield chance.

 

Pursuing Absorb over DEF or Shield Chance is nuts. (assuming you are not over 30%/50%)

 

The numbers do not agree with these statements.

 

Absorb is simply more valuable point for point than shield unless you have crazy amounts in both. At 400 points invested between the two the ideal spread is 170 shield and 230 absorb. Shield gradually overtakes absorb as you get to higher and higher values (it takes 680 total points spent between the two before shield overtakes absorb in value), but with the amounts we have available you aren't likely to get into that range while still putting any points at all into defense.

 

Once again please reference the theorycrafting done by Malissant on this issue.

 

http://swttor.blogspot.com/2012/02/guides-shield-versus-defense.html

[prophanitix]

The numbers do not agree with these statements.

 

Absorb is simply more valuable point for point than shield unless you have crazy amounts in both. At 400 points invested between the two the ideal spread is 170 shield and 230 absorb. Shield gradually overtakes absorb as you get to higher and higher values (it takes 680 total points spent between the two before shield overtakes absorb in value), but with the amounts we have available you aren't likely to get into that range while still putting any points at all into defense.

 

Once again please reference the theorycrafting done by Malissant on this issue.

 

http://swttor.blogspot.com/2012/02/guides-shield-versus-defense.html

 

Look it is fairly straight forwards,

 

The less actual effect it has, the more you get of it per point, so of course the least effective stat you get the largest amounts of easier.

 

Def is the absolute best because you take ZERO damage when it works, so of course it is capped lower and it is harder to get to that cap.

 

Shield chance is second because it simply gives a chance to increase your damage reduction, for example on my Assassin i have 40% base mitigation, when i shield a hit (50% chance) it jumps that mitigation value to 71%.

 

Being at the caps for Def and Shield chance is the absolute best place you can be as a Tank.

 

 

And to quote your linked theory craft person :

Defense is more useful then shield for overall mitigation, stack 2 points of defense : 1 point of shield (split shield optimally between absorption and shield chance according to above calculation)

At ~400 defense and ~200 shield start stacking at appromxately 1.1 defense : 1 shield ratio

Edited April 16, 2012 by prophanitix

[TheSidehatch]

Look it is fairly straight forwards,

 

The less actual effect it has, the more you get of it per point, so of course the least effective stat you get the largest amounts of easier.

 

Def is the absolute best because you take ZERO damage when it works, so of course it is capped lower and it is harder to get to that cap.

 

Shield chance is second because it simply gives a chance to increase your damage reduction, for example on my Assassin i have 40% base mitigation, when i shield a hit (50% chance) it jumps that mitigation value to 71%.

 

Being at the caps for Def and Shield chance is the absolute best place you can be as a Tank.

 

 

And to quote your linked theory craft person :

Defense is more useful then shield for overall mitigation, stack 2 points of defense : 1 point of shield (split shield optimally between absorption and shield chance according to above calculation)

At ~400 defense and ~200 shield start stacking at appromxately 1.1 defense : 1 shield ratio

 

You are completely missing the point of the thread. Overall with the higher percentages of Shield and Absorb you have a much greater chance of reducing (SOME) damage with those stats on a per point basis.

 

I would conject that at a similar number of points, the amount of mitigated damage with a focus on shield+absorb would rival that of the damage avoided by a focus on defense. As a result damage intake would be evened out and be less spiky.

 

Most importantly (per the OP) as a jug/guard we would see our resource gain increase from Soresu Form. Avoiding damage completely would eliminate the opportunity to gain these Force Points entirely whereas a shielded attack would still produce a Force Point.

 

With the new patch, has anyone found any data to support this theory?

[RDeanOU]

Look it is fairly straight forwards,

 

The less actual effect it has, the more you get of it per point, so of course the least effective stat you get the largest amounts of easier.

 

Def is the absolute best because you take ZERO damage when it works, so of course it is capped lower and it is harder to get to that cap.

 

Shield chance is second because it simply gives a chance to increase your damage reduction, for example on my Assassin i have 40% base mitigation, when i shield a hit (50% chance) it jumps that mitigation value to 71%.

 

Being at the caps for Def and Shield chance is the absolute best place you can be as a Tank.

 

 

And to quote your linked theory craft person :

Defense is more useful then shield for overall mitigation, stack 2 points of defense : 1 point of shield (split shield optimally between absorption and shield chance according to above calculation)

At ~400 defense and ~200 shield start stacking at appromxately 1.1 defense : 1 shield ratio

 

I didn't say absorb was better than defense. I said it was better than shield point for point until you reached a total investment of 680 points between the two.

 

This is what the math says. You can talk about what your intuition tells you, but your intuition is wrong and the math is correct.

 

You are right that defense is more valuable point for point (although there are caveats to that and you don't want to ignore shield/absorb entirely).

 

Where you are wrong is when you say this:

 

Shield chance is second because it simply gives a chance to increase your damage reduction, for example on my Assassin i have 40% base mitigation, when i shield a hit (50% chance) it jumps that mitigation value to 71%.

 

Shield doesn't provide a static amount of mitigation. The amount of mitigation it provides depends on how many points you have invested into absorb. an extra % chance to shield isn't that valuable when your absorb % is only around 20%. If you get your absorb % up around 40% then each point of shield is far more valuable. In other words, right now when you shield your mitigation goes from 40% to 71%. If you had more points invested in absorb your mitigation would go from 40% to 81% and hence you would mitigate more overall damage even though your shield was proccing slightly less often.

 

See these two stats (shield/absorb) are interrelated in their value. How much mitigation they provide depends on how much of the other stat you have. That is why the theorycrafting I linked is valuable information. It shows you where the sweet spots are (that is where you are maximizing the points you are investing into both stats).

 

According to the math and the spreadsheets Absorb is our second most valuable stat (behind defense) until you have invested a total of 680 points between the two (absorb/shield). After that point shield becomes our second most valuable stat and absorb third.

 

Of course, it is more complicated than ranking them #1, #2, and #3. The whole story is about balancing them properly. You get the most value from your points when you are balancing them. Just because defense > absorb > shield that doesn't mean you want to stack in defense and ignore absorb/shield nor does it mean you want to put every point after defense into absorb because shield is the least valuable early on.

 

You want to improve them in ratios. That is the part of the theorycrafting you quoted, but I don't think you get what it means. Early on you want to put twice as many points into defense as you are splitting between shield/absorb. At roughly 400 defense that ratio changes. At 400 defense you should have 200 points split between absorb/shield (the optimum divide is 130 absorb and 70 shield at this point). After this point you are going to improve defense 1.1 point for every 1 point you put into shield and absorb. That means at 510 Defense you would have 300 points spent in absorb/shield (180 in absorb and 120 in shield chance).

 

I know it's complicated, but this is what the math tells us.

[ConradLionhart]

I may go with shield rating and absorption rating because I agree that a smooth damage reduction is better than taking spike damage.

 

Of course you cannot just pick one and ignore the other. But higher priority is on shields.

[prophanitix]

Shield doesn't provide a static amount of mitigation.

 

Maybe learn to read before you go off on a huge tangent.

 

I never once stated Shield chance gives a set amount of mitigation, I said it gives a chance to increase your mitigation. two totally different things.

 

Def > Shield chance > Absorb. and that is not theory craft all the maths support it.

 

If Def is capped @30%

And shield chance is capped @ 50%

You can bet damage mitigation is capped also, My Assassin tank has 30% avoid, 50% shield, and 31% Absorb. and that is just about as good as it gets in the current system. No intuition..Maths.

[RDeanOU]

Maybe learn to read before you go off on a huge tangent.

 

I never once stated Shield chance gives a set amount of mitigation, I said it gives a chance to increase your mitigation. two totally different things.

 

Def > Shield chance > Absorb. and that is not theory craft all the maths support it.

 

If Def is capped @30%

And shield chance is capped @ 50%

You can bet damage mitigation is capped also, My Assassin tank has 30% avoid, 50% shield, and 31% Absorb. and that is just about as good as it gets in the current system. No intuition..Maths.

 

This is just factually incorrect. Your absorb could and should be higher. It isn't capped the way you are suggesting. The cap for absorb from stats is around 50%. Your 31% absorb is woefully inadequate for a tank. You are proccing your shield half the time, but your shield is significantly less useful than it should be. My shield chance is around 43% and my absorb is at 40% (Defense chance is around 30% as well). That means that I shield just a little less often than you, but my shield is absorbing more damage and I am getting more use out of it. Because I have balanced my stats better I actually mitigate more damage from these two stats than you do. If you rebalanced some of the shield chance you have stacked into absorb you would find you take less damage overall.

 

Your shield chance would be doing MORE for you if you had higher absorb. I know you said it gives a chance to increase mitigation, but you are totally ignoring the fact that the amount of mitigation it gives you is dependent on how much absorb you have. 1% additional shield chance at your 31% absorb is kind of pathetic. 1% absorb chance at 45% absorb is quite a bit more valuable.

 

Def > Shield chance > Absorb. and that is not theory craft all the maths support it.

Perhaps you want to show your work the way that the theorycrafters who all say you are wrong showed their work. I don't see any math being done on your part at all. You are using your intuition to guess or "bet" in your words on a cap that isn't where you suggest it is. The people who have done the math all say that you are wrong. My actual stats say that you are wrong. Your stats prove that you have mistakenly stacked shield over absorb and you aren't mitigating the damage that you should be as a result.

 

I love how you say this...

No intuition..Maths.

Right after you've done this.

If Def is capped @30%

And shield chance is capped @ 50%

You can bet damage mitigation is capped also

 

That is the very definition of using intuition to attack this problem rather than math. You are guessing at this problem and you are guessing incorrectly.

Edited April 20, 2012 by RDeanOU

[RDeanOU]

I do not understand why people want to argue with the theorycrafting on this issue. Do people hate math?

[prophanitix]

I do not understand why people want to argue with the theorycrafting on this issue. Do people hate math?

 

Wait, you are now claiming Def is not capped at 30% chance?

And that Shield chance is not capped at 50% chance?

 

and me having 72% mitigation when i shield is terrible? you think that you can reach 100% mitigation? lulz and you talk about maths and facts.

 

I will grantee you Mitigation is capped, and not at 100% more like 70-80%

[RDeanOU]

Wait, you are now claiming Def is not capped at 30% chance?

And that Shield chance is not capped at 50% chance?

 

and me having 72% mitigation when i shield is terrible? you think that you can reach 100% mitigation? lulz and you talk about maths and facts.

 

I will grantee you Mitigation is capped, and not at 100% more like 70-80%

 

No, I'm arguing that capping your shield when your absorb is at a pathetic 31% is hilariously absurd because you are capping out how often a pathetically weak shield is proccing instead of increasing the value of that shield. 72% mitigation when your shield procs sounds great, but not compared to the 80% plus you would be getting if you weren't ignoring absorb rating.

 

You do realize that absorb determines how much damage your shield blocks right? You realize that ignoring absorb or even prioritizing it last as you have done means your shield isn't as valuable as it should be?

 

I am not suggesting that you are going to reach 100% mitigation, but I myself have 10% better mitigation when my shield procs because I have not foolishly ignored absorb rating.

 

Where the math and facts come in is that they uniformly say that ignoring absorb in the way you have done hurts your overall mitigation. Did you even look at the charts on the theorycrafting I linked from Malissant? They clearly indicate that you are wrong in prioritizing absorb last in the way that you have.

 

If you don't want to look at the complicated graphs let me simplify it a bit.

 

Let's just look at a really simple math problem that we can all do on our calculators. You are getting 31% mitigation from your shield 50% of the time.

 

.50 x .31 = .155

 

I am saying that if you reinvested some of those points from shield rating into absorb you could be getting 40% or more absorb every time your shield procs and your shield chance would still be at least 42%.

 

.42 x .40 = .168

 

Which number is higher 1.55 or 1.68?

 

Do you not see how even basic math without the charts and graphs completely contradicts what you are saying?

 

Increasing the frequency of shield procs when your shield isn't absorbing the damage it ought to be is a poor choice.

[RDeanOU]

 

I will grantee you Mitigation is capped, and not at 100% more like 70-80%

 

By the way, the majority of us know for a fact that your guarantee here is flat wrong because most of us have absorb rating/armor that combine for more than 80%. You are assuming a cap on how much damage your shield can absorb that is in the 30-40% range when the actual cap is 50%. This isn't my opinion or conjecture like your guesses on the subject. This is well established.

[Malissant]

You're all wrong, didn't you know that defensive stats are useless and we should all be wearing DPS gear?

 

/sarcasm.

 

Thanks for the linking to my work. I see lots of back and forth, but the numbers haven't really changed for 1.2 that I can tell. I actually find a good spread just using the standard itemized gear - but I haven't specifically tried to min/max anything yet ... too busy doing other stuff.

 

Remember when you're looking at different mitigation types to take situational stuff in to account. Also I didn't do any work with percentages, only points spent, so your best bet isn't necessarily to keep your percentages even, but to keep your point spread fairly even. At 50 with the point budget you have you should be pretty close between Def and Shield budget (shield budget split between def and abs). The percentage numbers are different for each class since we all have different talents and base stats to start with.

[RDeanOU]

You're all wrong, didn't you know that defensive stats are useless and we should all be wearing DPS gear?

 

/sarcasm.

 

Thanks for the linking to my work. I see lots of back and forth, but the numbers haven't really changed for 1.2 that I can tell. I actually find a good spread just using the standard itemized gear - but I haven't specifically tried to min/max anything yet ... too busy doing other stuff.

 

Remember when you're looking at different mitigation types to take situational stuff in to account. Also I didn't do any work with percentages, only points spent, so your best bet isn't necessarily to keep your percentages even, but to keep your point spread fairly even. At 50 with the point budget you have you should be pretty close between Def and Shield budget (shield budget split between def and abs). The percentage numbers are different for each class since we all have different talents and base stats to start with.

 

Thanks. If I am reading your stuff correctly at 510 Defense Rating I should be at 120 shield and 180 absorb for optimum mitigation.

Edited April 20, 2012 by RDeanOU

[prophanitix]

By the way, the majority of us know for a fact that your guarantee here is flat wrong because most of us have absorb rating/armor that combine for more than 80%. You are assuming a cap on how much damage your shield can absorb that is in the 30-40% range when the actual cap is 50%. This isn't my opinion or conjecture like your guesses on the subject. This is well established.

 

 

Just because you are over cap of mitigation you have no clue at all what the actual cap is, the game does not stop you going over caps on display...i have had 33% avoid showing before now.

 

Now we have damage logs we can actually find out. and i will be supremely surprised if mitigation is over 80% cap.

 

And i will welcome anyone getting damage logs and proving it..so all this "theory" can be debunked.

Edited April 20, 2012 by prophanitix

[RDeanOU]

Just because you are over cap of mitigation you have no clue at all what the actual cap is, the game does not stop you going over caps on display...i have had 33% avoid showing before now.

 

Now we have damage logs we can actually find out. and i will be supremely surprised if mitigation is over 80% cap.

 

And i will welcome anyone getting damage logs and proving it..so all this "theory" can be debunked.

 

So the entire community and their math/simulators are wrong, but your guess is right.

 

Cool story bro.

[prophanitix]

So the entire community and their math/simulators are wrong, but your guess is right.

 

Cool story bro.

 

Prior to 1.2 you had ZERO ways to find out what the mitigation cap is.

Now you can be all butt hurt if you want, but the game actually does not display caps, you can go over the caps with any of the stats...be it crit or defense, ergo you have no way of knowing what the cap for mitigation is unless someone has been hiding a dev post admitting it. and you can cool story me all you like...YES all the educated guess work is just that....educated guess work.

 

And now you can actually prove it, for some reason i have an suspicion you have no idea what Theory means, in the context it is applied here. Prior to 1.2 it was an untestable Theory...now it is a provable Theory, and that means analyzing actual game logs ...until you show me that proof, you are not any more right with your assertions than i am in mine.

[RDeanOU]

Prior to 1.2 you had ZERO ways to find out what the mitigation cap is.

Now you can be all butt hurt if you want, but the game actually does not display caps, you can go over the caps with any of the stats...be it crit or defense, ergo you have no way of knowing what the cap for mitigation is unless someone has been hiding a dev post admitting it. and you can cool story me all you like...YES all the educated guess work is just that....educated guess work.

 

And now you can actually prove it, for some reason i have an suspicion you have no idea what Theory means, in the context it is applied here. Prior to 1.2 it was an untestable Theory...now it is a provable Theory, and that means analyzing actual game logs ...until you show me that proof, you are not any more right with your assertions than i am in mine.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=399329&highlight=absorb+cap

 

Just one of the threads that backs me up. There's also the theorycrafting from Malissant that I linked as well as Agrath's spreadsheet from Sithwarrior that I linked earlier in the thread.

 

What do you have backing you up? Oh, right, just your own guesses.

 

I don't have combat logs because I have yet to mess with this feature, but the theorycrafters have been using them and they have said that the cap for absorb and shield is 50% from rating.

 

You have arbitrarily guessed that the cap is somewhere between 30-40% based purely on a hunch. You have nothing backing you up....not any solid theorycrafting, not combat logs, not even any well accepted assumptions from within the community. You have no backup at all for your theory except, "I think it works this way."

[prophanitix]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=399329&highlight=absorb+cap

 

Just one of the threads that backs me up. There's also the theorycrafting from Malissant that I linked as well as Agrath's spreadsheet from Sithwarrior that I linked earlier in the thread.

 

What do you have backing you up? Oh, right, just your own guesses.

 

I don't have combat logs because I have yet to mess with this feature, but the theorycrafters have been using them and they have said that the cap for absorb and shield is 50% from rating.

 

You have arbitrarily guessed that the cap is somewhere between 30-40% based purely on a hunch. You have nothing backing you up....not any solid theorycrafting, not combat logs, not even any well accepted assumptions from within the community. You have no backup at all for your theory except, "I think it works this way."

 

There is ZERO actual data backing up the claims of 50% caps for Absorb, you do realise this?

 

If you are sitting at 45% mitigation prior to a successful shield chance trigger, 50% absorb would give you 95% damage reduction..and there is no way AT ALL that games like this allow you to mitigate such high amounts.

 

IF defense is capped at 30% and shield chance is at best a 50/50 trigger chance, you truely think DR can sit just under 100%? Do you even understand the ramifications of such numbers?

 

And to top it off, they are talking about PVP mechanics.

 

You are just full of fail.

Twice now you have quoted things that have ZERO bearings on your claims.

 

You wish to win this..convince people you are wrong and I am right..you need to either show DEVELOPER posts confirming the DATA, or ACTUAL factual breakdowns proving that mitigation is in fact not capped at all, and that means Damage logs showing Damage no shield..shield triggered..its effects vrs all damage types.

 

At the moment sir, all you are doing is quoting other people assumptions. and I am quite rightly challenging it.

Edited April 21, 2012 by prophanitix

[RDeanOU]

There is ZERO actual data backing up the claims of 50% caps for Absorb, you do realise this?

 

If you are sitting at 45% mitigation prior to a successful shield chance trigger, 50% absorb would give you 95% damage reduction..and there is no way AT ALL that games like this allow you to mitigate such high amounts.

 

IF defense is capped at 30% and shield chance is at best a 50/50 trigger chance, you truely think DR can sit just under 100%? Do you even understand the ramifications of such numbers?

 

And to top it off, they are talking about PVP mechanics.

 

You are just full of fail.

Twice now you have quoted things that have ZERO bearings on your claims.

 

You wish to win this..convince people you are wrong and I am right..you need to either show DEVELOPER posts confirming the DATA, or ACTUAL factual breakdowns proving that mitigation is in fact not capped at all, and that means Damage logs showing Damage no shield..shield triggered..its effects vrs all damage types.

 

At the moment sir, all you are doing is quoting other people assumptions. and I am quite rightly challenging it.

 

Oh, I think people are more convinced by the weight of evidence behind my theory than the weight of nothing but your hunch for yours.

 

It's true I don't have a Dev post or Combat logs, but I have plenty of other backup while you have nothing at all and are simply saying that you have a wild hunch.

 

I'll trust the people that are doing all of the testing and theorycrafting at places like Sithwarrior over someone on the forums with absolutely zero backup or credibility (that's you). I think most people will make the same choice.

 

If you want to convince people you'll have to do better than providing absolutely no backup or evidence at all.

[Kallti]

Rdean, I'd just like to thank you for taking the time to ensure correct and, more importantly, consistent information is held within this thread. Everything you have posted is consistent with the results of both real world and theoretical testing I have seen elsewhere.

[Powerrmongerr]

Rdean, you have fought the good fight longer than I thought possible.

 

With proper allocation of points, you can get your effective defense rating up to around 37-39% when you factor in retaliation proc bonus and the quake (I consider lowering Acc by 5% to be the functional equivalent of increasing defense by 5% against an affected target). That's huge! Plus, defense procs revenge and retaliation ... the latter of which is basically the number one priority in a rotation.

 

The problem is that it's tough to effectively stack Defense. Unless you're doubling/tripling up on Rakata boots, chest, or gloves (I think those are the one with Def on it) by ripping out the mods you're pretty much stuck with two or three mods and enhancements (I buy them off the GTN when I can) or augments. The math supports getting defense until you're about 450-500 points, IIRC, and I don't see why that's even much of a debate.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Powerrmongerr