Are you what I'm looking for?

[Philosomanic]

I'm a Shadow right now. I've been playing the backstab-from-the-shadows style, and it was getting old. I recently switched to Balance. Balance shadows are a really fluid mix of melee and range, and I'm really enjoying it. However, after looking at why I'm enjoying it, I realized that I like the fluid, mobile ranged combat. Balance is heavily DoT-reliant. I'd prefer direct damage, but the DoTs are worth it for high sustained damage and range/mobility.

 

I decided I'd look into other classes to see if there's anything else like what I want. Sage and Gunslinger are out; they're not nearly mobile enough for me. I'm not going Commando because they look like they're more cast-time reliant, and I can't stand the massive assault cannons. Vanguard actually looks pretty close to what I want, though.

 

Looking at lists of skills on database sites doesn't really give a good idea of the class. You can't really know what it's like until you play it, and I don't trust the numbers (It lists one of my skills as doing 7.9k, when it's really 1.5k-2k). So, here are my questions:

 

How reliant on melee are you?

Can you do full DPS (or really close to full) from range? Do you have to be within 10m, or can you still do full DPS from 30m away?

 

How mobile are you?

To an outsider, it looks like your DPS is largely instant activation skills. Do you have many skills in your typical DPS rotation that require you to stand still, or can you cast them on the move?

 

How do you do in 1v1s?

Assuming all things are equal (skill, gear, level), do you tend to win or lose? Which classes are you better/worse against?

 

How is your overall DPS output?

Are you competitive with, say, Commandos or Shadows? I know that Sentinels and Gunslingers are going to beat you (as it should be), but can you still do good DPS if you're built for it?

 

Can you recommend a Spec for me?

I'm looking for the ability to do high damage at range, but not be completely disadvantaged in melee (like Sages are). Mobility is key for me. I hate being forced to stand still and cast. DoTs are okay, but I prefer direct damage.

 

 

Thanks!

-A (possible) future Vanguard

[Hethroin]

I will answer from a perspective of an Assault Vanguard. The numbers I list are crits with around 1480 Aim, without stims.

 

HIB vs Tank hits around 3k, and 4k vs Sorcs. Spec applies 2 DoTs, one of which is a proc (~600 crit per tic, up to 1k on targets lower than 30%) and one is applied at 30m with an initial hit of 1k (crit) and around 400 tics for 18 seconds. Your 10-meter "spammable" crtis everything for around 1.3 to 1.7k applies the proc dot, snares the target, and has a chance to proc a free HIB. Stock strike hits a bit harder at around 2.3 - 3k is a melee range attack and has a higher chance to proc a free HIB. At the top of the tree is a single target delay bomb, 30-meter range, hits for around 3k with a 5ish second delay after application, so you have time to set up burst.

 

How reliant on melee are you? 90%. If I am not in melee range I cannot use Stock Strike and more reliably reset my HIB (heavy hitter).

 

Can you do full DPS (or really close to full) from range?

Not really close. You can start your rotation at 30m, you can close as you're doing your rotation, but you want to be within 10m by the time you let go of your first HIB so that you can use Ion Pulse to reset HIB and prevent your target from fleeing.

 

Do you have to be within 10m, or can you still do full DPS from 30m away?

If I'm not within 10m it's not full DPS. Our interrupt is melee range, so trying to kill a healer or a Tracer Missile turret requires getting your boots dirty.

 

How mobile are you?

There is nothing in the assault tree that requires me to stand still still; however, I do not get a charge, nor speed. I can pull people. I can safely say that I am the second worst spec class to be running a Huttball, the first going to the gunslinger that has to stand still to do most of its damage.

 

To an outsider, it looks like your DPS is largely instant activation skills. Do you have many skills in your typical DPS rotation that require you to stand still, or can you cast them on the move?

All of our AoE with the exception of our very expensive PBAoE is channeled. Full Auto is channeled, but is rarely used unless you are outside of 10m and are not inclined to close on nor pull your target. Auto Fire could be used more with the next patch as filler.

 

How do you do in 1v1s?

Assuming all things are equal (skill, gear, level), do you tend to win or lose? Which classes are you better/worse against?

We can kite melee with snare, and shut down ranged with interrupts and stuns. Classes that can immune tech, or get white damage immunity cooldowns will give us trouble. It's possible to outplay marauders, and DPS-race-burn Assassins. I am having a hard time with a specific healing-scoundrel whom I've helped learn how to beat PTs.

 

If you are getting the jump on someone you should be winning 90% of your fights, assuming a reasonable RNG proc rate.

 

How is your overall DPS output?

Are you competitive with, say, Commandos or Shadows? I know that Sentinels and Gunslingers are going to beat you (as it should be), but can you still do good DPS if you're built for it?

As an Assault Vanguard you should be very capable of being at the top of the "damage done" list in every single warzone. I would say that sentinel only beat us in Damage Done when there are no deaths on the other side. In a marathon DPS race, when we can't break a second to regain some ammo, the sentinel will outpace us as they generate resources by performing some attacks. When the race is a series of sprints we can compete on an equal footing and can put out significant burst by dumping our resource. Gunslingers have a much harder time attacking higher defense ratings and shields, where our DPS is almost unaffected by armor, and only HIB can be deflected or shielded, though it too penetrates enemy armor by 90%, and thus us still worth using against a tank. I would say gunslingers beat everyone when it comes time to drop the AoE. They are in a class of their own, due to the fire-and-forget nature of Orbital Strike and the ability to use other attacks during their AE.

 

 

(This is anecdotal and may not apply to all Assault Vanguards)

I regularly find myself at the top of the Damage Done list, sometimes 100k or 150k ahead of the next DPS on the list in warzones. If I group a watchman sentinel I find him to get very close to the same damage I deal, however I end up with around 50% more DBs. This leads me to believe that we are better burst damage dealers than the watchmen.

 

 

 

Can you recommend a Spec for me? See link above.

 

I'm looking for the ability to do high damage at range, but not be completely disadvantaged in melee (like Sages are). Mobility is key for me. I hate being forced to stand still and cast. DoTs are okay, but I prefer direct damage.

When combating melee your preferred range is 5m - 10m, with a close to melee range for Stock Strike every time it's off CD. Other than that you do not need to be "face tanking" their attacks. When fighting ranged you have the upper hand by staying in melee range, and you have no trouble staying in range with pull and snare at your disposal. You only have to stand-and-cast if you are trying to do AE damage.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Hethroin

[Coramac]

I largely agree with this but want to just throw in a couple comments.

 

How reliant on melee are you? 90%. If I am not in melee range I cannot use Stock Strike and more reliably reset my HIB (heavy hitter).

 

Do you have to be within 10m, or can you still do full DPS from 30m away?

If I'm not within 10m it's not full DPS. Our interrupt is melee range, so trying to kill a healer or a Tracer Missile turret requires getting your boots dirty.

 

We can do very well from a 10m range without ever closing. It's probably better than 80% effective in most situations. I think of this as an advantage in that we can better engagement options. And as a note, this is very likely to change 1.2.

 

How do you do in 1v1s?

Assuming all things are equal (skill, gear, level), do you tend to win or lose? Which classes are you better/worse against?

We can kite melee with snare, and shut down ranged with interrupts and stuns. Classes that can immune tech, or get white damage immunity cooldowns will give us trouble. It's possible to outplay marauders, and DPS-race-burn Assassins. I am having a hard time with a specific scoundrel whom I've helped learn how to beat PTs.

 

If you are getting the jump on someone you should be winning 90% of your fights, assuming a reasonable RNG proc rate.

 

Environmentally dependent here. I normally completely dominate any and all classes if you give me a pillar or obstuction to LOS. My favorite spot is on the sides of the endzones in Huttball. There's these little concrete looking road block I use to work people over. The stairs on Civil War are great on the sides. Void Star has some good pillars.

 

How is your overall DPS output?

Are you competitive with, say, Commandos or Shadows? I know that Sentinels and Gunslingers are going to beat you (as it should be), but can you still do good DPS if you're built for it?

As an Assault Vanguard you should be very capable of being at the top of the "damage done" list in every single warzone. I would say that sentinel only beat us in Damage Done when there are no deaths on the other side. In a marathon DPS race, when we can't break a second to regain some ammo, the sentinel will outpace us as they generate resources by performing some attacks. When the race is a series of sprints we can compete on an equal footing and can put out significant burst by dumping our resource. Gunslingers have a much harder time attacking higher defense ratings and shields, where our DPS us almost unaffected by armor, and only HIB can be deflected or shielded, though it penetrates enemy armor by 90%, and thus us still worth using against a tank. I would say gunslingers beat everyone when it comes time to drop the AoE. They are in a class of their own, due to the fire-and-forget nature of Orbital Strike and the ability to use other attacks during their AE.

 

This is spec dependent too, but I rarely was beaten by any glow stick when I was going for damage. If you go Tactics, you are probably going to top just about every time if you can effectively use Pulse Cannon- it's abusive AoE.

 

(This is anecdotal and may not apply to all Assault Vanguards)

I regularly find myself at the top of the Damage Done list, sometimes 100k or 150k ahead of the next DPS on the list in warzones. If I group a watchman sentinel I find him to get very close to the same damage I deal, however I end up with around 50% more DBs. This leads me to believe that we are better burst damage dealers than the watchmen.

 

 

 

Watchman have a better burst and have a monumental burst advantage if they carry Overload Saber a full cooldown. However, they have very minimal target swapping ability. If you watch a lot of Sentinels and Marauders, they will sit there and tunnel vision on someone forever because they don't want to "waste" the DoTs. I was in a Void Star once where I was literally attacked by a Maruader for over 2 minutes. It was actually kind of sad. I was ignoring him and killing his team. He just followed me around like a little puppy on my Plasma Cell snare leash that I'd tab target put on every 6-7 seconds.

[Philosomanic]

[Great Stuff]

 

Thanks for the awesome reply. I'm definitely going to give vanguard a try soon.

 

I'm not entirely happy with the melee. I'm just not a fan of the idea of punching a lightsaber-wielding Sith to death. Would a build along the lines of this be effective at all? You'd have to stay within 10m (which is fine with me), but that keeps you out of the range of most AoE and melee damage.

 

If that's something that could actually work, I'd be really happy. Right now, I build for a very similar play style, but I find myself having to put a lot of points into defensive talents to compensate for the fact that I'm wearing a bathrobe and pretending it's armor. I'd really like to be a heavy armor class.

 

How does the damage of Stock Strike compare to Ion Pulse? Are the TORHead numbers of 2.3k vs 600 correct?

[Hethroin]

Stock strike is Kinetic damage and is reduced by targets armor. I've had it crit for near 4k on 'bath robes' and under 2k on heavies. It is a tech attach and as such is not able to be defended. While Ion Pulse is also a tech attach it deals Elemental damage and isn't mitigated through standard armor values (generally tank-specs have ~20% elemental mitigation from their stance/talents). Ion Pulse crits will range from 1.3k to 1.8k; note that automatic application of the DOT occurs every Ion pulse and deals an additional ~600 (crit) elemental damage and up to 1k on a low HP target.

 

We are not able to sustain a constant stream of Ion Pulses/SS we run out of ammo. To maintain ammo you weave in some free attacks. Or, if you're lucky, HiB procs keep you away from the free attack button.

 

About the build you linked (I'm looking at it from the perspective of "I want to be able to kill things as effectively as possible"):

 

2/3 Intimidation > 2/2 Static Field. Having one guy that you're killing anyways deal 4% less damage does nearly nothing (especially when you consider that you can also taunt this person), but consistently dealing 4% more damage with every attack other than white damage and SS will add up.

 

Heavy Stock >> Soldiers Endurance. It's not even close, 2% more endurance gives you around 400HP at level 50; 8% more deeps on Stock Strike will outperform 400hp.

 

Not as critical. I found that, in PVP and specifically warzones, Reflexive Shield is better than Adrenaline Fueled. Well, at least, for me. Having the bubble be available nearly every time someone wants to focus you is practical, and can save you a respawn. If nothing else it's a good deterrent from being focused upon, people will swap off you sometimes when they see a defensive CD used, and rightfully so. Having 2/2 in reflexive shield has allowed me to be more liberal with Reactive Shield, though at the same time it has facilitated an increase in "stupid play" on my part as well.

[Pearnicious]

Thanks for the awesome reply. I'm definitely going to give vanguard a try soon.

 

I'm not entirely happy with the melee. I'm just not a fan of the idea of punching a lightsaber-wielding Sith to death. Would a build along the lines of this be effective at all? You'd have to stay within 10m (which is fine with me), but that keeps you out of the range of most AoE and melee damage.

 

That spec is fine, but I would personally tweak it just slightly like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801bMZMsZfhrbdGhMs.1

 

In the assault tree, I moved the points in Soldier's Endurance to Heavy Stock. Soldier's Endurance is really lack-luster, giving only about 500 more HP at level 50. 8% more stockstrike damage is more beneficial.

Adrenaline fueled is also pretty meh in my opinion. I feel you get better ammo management from Parallactic Combat Stims, and I can't even feel the healing from adrenaline rush anyway...

 

Similarly, in the shield tree, I would move the points from static field to intimidation. With mitigation I feel it's all or nothing. Assault focuses on doing damage, so you should max it out. If you really want a little more mitigation, you could put those 2 points in to power armor in tactics instead. In my opinion, 2% across the board is better than 4% against your current target.

 

All in all, a pretty standard 31 pt. assault spec.

 

EDIT: I should read the whole thread before posting. Hethroin basically said everything I did, only 3 hours sooner.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Pearnicious

[marcusbjol]

So, I play a 48 IF Vanguard and a 50 PVP DPS Sage. I can answer both questions for you, and my recommendation is to check out the PVP sage if you want ranged mobility.

 

So, here are my questions:

 

How reliant on melee are you?

IF Vanguard - Max Damage < 4, Med < 10, a few attacks at 10+ (some heavy, some not)

DPS Sage - DPS is equal at all ranges, not survivability.

 

How mobile are you?

IF Vanguard - Very mobile. I only plant for 3 abilitys - Pulse Cannon, Mortar Round, and Full Auto. All of those are not part of my usual rotation.

DPS Sage - Very. The trick is to use pebble toss till you get a proc buff. THat buff allows any spell to be instant cast, which I use TK Wave (hard hitting AOE). Then project. Both heavy hitters that can be used on the move. Specced properly, you get the Sage Sprint with a 20 sec CD. The pebble toss is actually a force recovery method without a cooldown so starting and stopping it is no big deal.

 

How do you do in 1v1s?

IF Vanguard - Sentinals are annoyin. GS at range. Dont worry bout too much else.

Sage - Melee close up is bad news. I am too aggressive to keep my range (why I am switchin to Vanguard).

 

How is your overall DPS output?

W/O meters, I can only give subjective answers. I also focus on the objective in WZs than kills so my numbers leave lots to be desired. But with the IF, in hutball if I catch the ball carrier with less than half health with a harpoon, I get the ball.

 

Sage - DPS burst is lack luster. Ya can get force 2 crits (3 with stalker gear) for some really nice AOE damage with TK Wave and Force in Balance. Very steady constant stream of damage.

 

Can you recommend a Spec for me?

IF Vanguard - My only experience. But looking at the other specs, to use them well, you have to be 10m or closer. Farther, you have a few attacks that will work, but nothing sustained.

 

 

Thanks!

-A (possible) future Vanguard

[iNeXxS]

I am a War Hero Assualt Vanguard in "Best in Slot" gear so I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

 

 

 

How reliant on melee are you?

Can you do full DPS (or really close to full) from range? Do you have to be within 10m, or can you still do full DPS from 30m away?

Like mentioned earlier, you can open up at 30m but you will not do full DPS unless you're within 10m (4m preferably for Stock Strike and Interrupt).

 

How mobile are you?

To an outsider, it looks like your DPS is largely instant activation skills. Do you have many skills in your typical DPS rotation that require you to stand still, or can you cast them on the move?

Assualt Vanguards are kind of weird mobility wise. All our abilities that are useful are instant-cast but we don't have any movement increasing abilities or leaps so we're just walking everywhere. Shield Spec (tank) on the other hand gets a 15 second CD leap which is great for Huttball.

 

How do you do in 1v1s?

Assuming all things are equal (skill, gear, level), do you tend to win or lose? Which classes are you better/worse against?

The only class I ever lose to in 1v1's are Marauders/Sentinels and Hybrid Tank Shadows. I can usually take down any other class without me going below 50% health.

 

How is your overall DPS output?

Are you competitive with, say, Commandos or Shadows? I know that Sentinels and Gunslingers are going to beat you (as it should be), but can you still do good DPS if you're built for it?

PvP wise, 90% of the time I get over 350k damage, usually over 500k in Voidstars. The average High Impact bolt crit is around 4k, highest ever is around 6k with Rakata power adrenal, BM power relic, and Sentinel Inspiration. Assualt Plastique usually hits for around 3.8k and I max out at about 5k with it. If I can catch a non-tank class that's not paying attention, I can usually burst them down from 100% - 0% in about 5-6 seconds with relic/adrenal.

 

Can you recommend a Spec for me?

I'm looking for the ability to do high damage at range, but not be completely disadvantaged in melee (like Sages are). Mobility is key for me. I hate being forced to stand still and cast. DoTs are okay, but I prefer direct damage.

 

My PvP spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801bMZMsZfhMbdGGMs.1

 

My PvE spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsZfI0bkGhMM.1

[Zunayson]

1. It depends on the spec. As assault (Which is getting nerfed, but is in no way "Not viable"), you really rely on a 30m dot and a 30m powerful ability only usable on a dot'd target. a 10m ability and a 4m ability reset the cooldown on your hard hitter, and if your abilities hit targets affected by your dot then you get like damage and resource bonuses.

 

The other damage spec is basically melee and 10m. You apply an internal dot, which can make your hard hitter an instant critical hit (Each tick that is, and it's in 1.2. As of now, it's 25% on applying it, in patch, it will be per tick, so you won't have to spam it). It also applies a 6 second 30% slow, nice for kiting. You will also rely on that 4m ability. This spec has NO ammo issues at all. Period. You have more passive energy regen, and you can proc free abilities. Your 31 pnt talent is 1 ammo and makes the melee ability free for christ's sake! Your 10m spam gives 10% (Stacks up to 5 times) bonus to this large 3 second channeled conal 10m AoE. It hits like a truck. More than a truck, it's like.... Bleh if they're stunned, boom half health in 3 seconds. Not to mention this spec has a 30 second cooldown move that increases movement speed for 30% and makes you immune to roots, knockbacks and physics (Operative opener knockdown?) all for 8 seconds. I usually pop that to: Break roots, kite, or right before the channeled AoE so that a sorc has to blow his stun on me to interrupt me.

 

2. Mobile, all the specs are. Only Tactics ( melee ) Requires 3 seconds of standing still for a nuker AoE. Note that it takes time to set up, so you can't burst it out. And if you do, you'll get ammo problems (Trust me, I've tried!). I've already told you the slow and the speed increase of Tactics. Also, they get a passive 15% speed bonus for two points if you're in the right stance (Ammo Cell).

 

3. Personally, I destroy everyone in a 1v1. I try my best to burst em down, meaning I'll have to Recharge and Reload (rest) afterwards. If I'm fighting multiple people, I have shields and a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of hp regen to use. So in a 1v1, I've never lost, yet. Although I don't get into 1v1s, as I stay with my team to dominate.

 

4. No, they usually don't. But most snipers and GSs are bad. I've come across good ones, you know that stun you, and knock you back after my 8 second immunity... I usually get 170k, and I'm low level with bad gear, playing the alleged worst spec for PvP.

 

5. As a vanguard doing solid damage at range, I'd have to tell you Assault is the best if you want range, but they place more damage reliance on their dot than the tactics tree does. Tactics is more mid/melee range while assault is really any range, but of course most effective in melee (As every class is, since every class has a basic melee move).

 

So you need to balance your want for range or dot dependency.

[jbuschell]

I too am intrigued by the assault vanguard and I too am a balance shadow, ironic, anyway from the information I have gathered isn't this spec getting nerfed? Something about the icd on the proc for HiB getting longer? Just would like some elaboration and I don't really want to play a tank spec because if I wanted to tank I would just play a KC shadow

[Zunayson]

Right now, the internal cooldown in effect is 3 seconds, as 1.5 for HiB, the other 1.5 for ion pulse/stock strike. So they double the cooldown, so to be fair they should double the chances

 

They said they made the procs more likely. So this way, we're less RNG dependent, meaning two things: We won't get shat on from the RNG, but we won't be blessed, either.

 

IMO, the chances should be stockstrike: 100%, and Ion Pulse 50%