Nerf Wrath, don't kill it.

[Roxtar]

As a sorcerer, I can attest to the dmg output that I have and it is high. However, (while using the hybrid spec I have) my single target dmg is a joke. I only pack a punch with chain lightning and frankly, it's the only reason I play. I found a play style that I enjoy. I enjoy having options and, if I wanted to do more single target dmg I could choose to go full up one tree or the other. But, what they are doing now is removing the choice and forcing it. I'm not fond of that concept. I'm okay with a nerf, but don't kill it.

 

Nerf suggestions:

1.) Lower proc rate on Wrath down to 25 or 20%

2.) Increase the lockout duration on chain lightning

3.) Lower the additional dmg modifier for chain lightning use.

 

OR, bring everyone else up.

 

You can't pay someone 25 dollars an hour for several months, then tell that person that management f---ed up and needs to cut that person's pay down to 15. He'll be out looking for a new job.

 

Frankly, I do not even see many people doing what I do. I just really enjoy it how it is, and can see room for a nerf, but I never see room for forcing me into a cookie cutter build that bores me. Let me play how I want to play, and if you didn't want me playing this build then you should have never made it a possibility in the first place.

 

Push this change to Wrath and make it live and you'll lose my subscription.

 

/flame on trolls

[Coogihat]

It's funny, I just had a discussion with a Rail Shot spamming PT about this.

 

He agreed with the nerf to sorcs, citing the example of 'sorcs getting 828k every game is OP'. Lol.

 

I get idea of a nerf, because hybrid's do have high dmg potential. But isn't what they are doing now basically just gimping sorcs completely? With this nerf, our dps looks like a crying little girl compared to mercs and snipers. Not even gonna start on non-ranged classes.

 

I still think the only (or at the least by far the largest) reason for the nerf is simply the overpopulation of Sorcs. Everybody sees Sorcs, people who DON'T have sorcs get all hurt because they see so many of them (even tho most are garbage). They die to a good one and cry nerf. One thing leads to another and before you know it..

 

Pure Lightning is so weak.. at least give us a buff to the 31-tiers if you're gonna nuke hybrids completely. But no, that is not what BW is concerned about. Their concern is 'adress large number of complaints', not 'balance all classes fairly'. At least that's what I think.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Coogihat

[Roxtar]

Yea, it's stupid. I can't imagine playing this character with the nerf that is coming. In fact, I just got out of the match and, while I was top of the boards, I didn't kill anyone! I just spread dmg around that is easily healed through. Furthermore, I'm a glass cannon. I die in microseconds out there.

 

I see no reason to destroy what little I do have. If they push this to live I'm gone. I'm not going to pay money for something that I would no longer enjoy or have a choice in. They are forcing a weak cookie cutter build and it's unnecessary.

 

Also, you're right. There are lots of Sorc out there, but most of them suck. Like freaking hunters in wow -- lots of them, bringing the suck. It doesn't mean they need to be nerfed into oblivion.

 

/end rant

[sensiblepoast]

Yea, it's stupid. I can't imagine playing this character with the nerf that is coming. In fact, I just got out of the match and, while I was top of the boards, I didn't kill anyone! I just spread dmg around that is easily healed through. Furthermore, I'm a glass cannon. I die in microseconds out there.

And the death star also died in microseconds too.

 

If you were all so squishy and helpless you wouldn't be doing such OP amounts of damage with such low amounts of times killed per warzone.

[Daellia]

You know what would have worked just fine? Chain Lightning now does half damage to all secondary targets. Problem solved.

[Fraeblood]

You know what would have worked just fine? Chain Lightning now does half damage to all secondary targets. Problem solved.

 

Yeah I never get why they don't just adjust damage output on things instead of changing abilities all together. You would think this would even be cheaper from a budget statnd point for them, as simcraft could easily show you the thoughtput of these sorts of changes.

[Daellia]

Yeah I never get why they don't just adjust damage output on things instead of changing abilities all together. You would think this would even be cheaper from a budget statnd point for them, as simcraft could easily show you the thoughtput of these sorts of changes.

 

Ah, but using Simcraft would be tacit support of theorycrafting, something Goerg hates with a passion.

[Fraeblood]

Ah, but using Simcraft would be tacit support of theorycrafting, something Goerg hates with a passion.

 

Orly?! Why is that. Yes it in no way shows real world out put, but it shows target dummy potential, and then you can see how things decline more or less if you know anything about the encounters. Must have missed posts how he hates this ideal.

[Obelisk-Kai]

If you didn't see something like this coming months ago, then you weren't paying attention.

 

I'm sorry a playstyle you liked has been nuked from on high, but the demise of the sorcerer hybrid was inevitable for three reasons.

 

1.)Whilst I cannot find the quote, I believe the devs have stated that if you don't want to take the 31 point talent in a tree then they are doing something wrong. The popularity of the hybrid meant attention was going to be paid to this build.

 

2.)The Hybrid build as it is on live has too much in terms of utility, cc and damage options. Some sort of nerf was inevitable, and the nerf to wrath is actually one I predicted a while back. Seems to be the least invasive method of breaking the hybrid spec.

 

3.)Hybrid specs are inherently unstable. Since the devs go with the expectation that you will take a full 31 point spec, I'd argue they don't consider the impact their changes will have on hybrid builds. So a change that could buff Madness but would nerf Hybrid, I believe the devs would call that a flat out buff. They have no intention of supporting Hybrid builds.

 

Of course what is happening here is different, the sorcerer changes are clearly a flat out attempt to break the Hybrid build. In the long term, this will be a good thing. It will allow them to build specs with unique rotations and individual identities/flavours.

[Daellia]

Orly?! Why is that. Yes it in no way shows real world out put, but it shows target dummy potential, and then you can see how things decline more or less if you know anything about the encounters. Must have missed posts how he hates this ideal.

 

Georg has made his dislike of theorycrafting general well known since early beta, actually. Not sure why, he's just extremely hostile to us.

[Terminmz]

If you didn't see something like this coming months ago, then you weren't paying attention.

 

I'm sorry a playstyle you liked has been nuked from on high, but the demise of the sorcerer hybrid was inevitable for three reasons.

 

1.)Whilst I cannot find the quote, I believe the devs have stated that if you don't want to take the 31 point talent in a tree then they are doing something wrong. The popularity of the hybrid meant attention was going to be paid to this build.

 

2.)The Hybrid build as it is on live has too much in terms of utility, cc and damage options. Some sort of nerf was inevitable, and the nerf to wrath is actually one I predicted a while back. Seems to be the least invasive method of breaking the hybrid spec.

 

3.)Hybrid specs are inherently unstable. Since the devs go with the expectation that you will take a full 31 point spec, I'd argue they don't consider the impact their changes will have on hybrid builds. So a change that could buff Madness but would nerf Hybrid, I believe the devs would call that a flat out buff. They have no intention of supporting Hybrid builds.

 

Of course what is happening here is different, the sorcerer changes are clearly a flat out attempt to break the Hybrid build. In the long term, this will be a good thing. It will allow them to build specs with unique rotations and individual identities/flavours.

 

While I agree with all your points, I will argue one thing...the 31 point talents. Creeping terror as it stands is absolute garbage. If speced into lightning to benefit from thundering blast, it is far better than creeping terror. Creeping terror gets no buffs (correct me if I'm wrong) from any of madness' talents unless you use deathmark (which is better used for crushing darkness anyway)

[Octeflam]

Georg has made his dislike of theorycrafting general well known since early beta, actually. Not sure why, he's just extremely hostile to us.

 

What is ironic is it isn't really theory. I mean I know that's what we call it, but really it is just modeling how the game behaves. It is THEIR math technically, you guys just put a light on it. There's no way they can effectively hide that from players. They've tried, I think, by withholding the combat log, but that only gets them so far.

 

If they would just embrace it, like Blizzard does, they would learn more about their own game and use that to help balance it.

 

I mean, it is like trying to DM a D&D game without letting the players know what their stats do.

[crimsonki]

It's funny, I just had a discussion with a Rail Shot spamming PT about this.

 

He agreed with the nerf to sorcs, citing the example of 'sorcs getting 828k every game is OP'. Lol.

 

I get idea of a nerf, because hybrid's do have high dmg potential. But isn't what they are doing now basically just gimping sorcs completely? With this nerf, our dps looks like a crying little girl compared to mercs and snipers. Not even gonna start on non-ranged classes.

 

I still think the only (or at the least by far the largest) reason for the nerf is simply the overpopulation of Sorcs. Everybody sees Sorcs, people who DON'T have sorcs get all hurt because they see so many of them (even tho most are garbage). They die to a good one and cry nerf. One thing leads to another and before you know it..

 

Pure Lightning is so weak.. at least give us a buff to the 31-tiers if you're gonna nuke hybrids completely. But no, that is not what BW is concerned about. Their concern is 'adress large number of complaints', not 'balance all classes fairly'. At least that's what I think.

 

Basically is IS an overpopulation issue. Only reason 500k+ is possible (*********** easy to do on marauder/jugg OR ANYTHING if you're good) is the aoe from CL. Want my idea? Dec wrath proc dmg by 5-10% remove chain's aoe effect and slightly inc dmg on it. Sorcs are probably the most nerfed class in this game. Being honest.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa
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[mulzii]

Basically is IS an overpopulation issue. Only reason 500k+ is possible (*********** easy to do on marauder/jugg OR ANYTHING if you're good) is the aoe from CL. Want my idea? Dec wrath proc dmg by 5-10% remove chain's aoe effect and slightly inc dmg on it. Sorcs are probably the most nerfed class in this game. Being honest.

 

the only reason sorcs want/need to go hybrid and/or spec CL is for the burst single-target damage (and instant when using current wrath).

 

If they want to keep the current 1.2 iteration of wrath, why not increase the damage on creeping terror significantly (eg. in the CL single target dmg range)? that would give sorcs a burst skill that they currently dont have, make more people want to go the 31 route rather than hybrid (which bw is against hybrids), and eliminate the AOE from CL that was causing massive dmgs (which quite frankly, sorcs dont really need another Aoe, they need a burst/instant spell).

 

Increasing creeping terror dmg would give madness a burst skill on a low cooldown. Then you could lower the channel time on CL with a skill in the lightning tree that helps lightning spec'd sorcs (and keep Aoe on CL). Then keep wrath only procing on CD, which would discourage hybrids, or rather, encourage pure madness if creeping's dmg wsa increased for an instant burst dmg.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa
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[JudgeHammer]

If you didn't see something like this coming months ago, then you weren't paying attention.

 

I'm sorry a playstyle you liked has been nuked from on high, but the demise of the sorcerer hybrid was inevitable for three reasons.

 

1.)Whilst I cannot find the quote, I believe the devs have stated that if you don't want to take the 31 point talent in a tree then they are doing something wrong. The popularity of the hybrid meant attention was going to be paid to this build.

 

2.)The Hybrid build as it is on live has too much in terms of utility, cc and damage options. Some sort of nerf was inevitable, and the nerf to wrath is actually one I predicted a while back. Seems to be the least invasive method of breaking the hybrid spec.

 

3.)Hybrid specs are inherently unstable. Since the devs go with the expectation that you will take a full 31 point spec, I'd argue they don't consider the impact their changes will have on hybrid builds. So a change that could buff Madness but would nerf Hybrid, I believe the devs would call that a flat out buff. They have no intention of supporting Hybrid builds.

 

Of course what is happening here is different, the sorcerer changes are clearly a flat out attempt to break the Hybrid build. In the long term, this will be a good thing. It will allow them to build specs with unique rotations and individual identities/flavours.

 

That first idea will get me to unsub right now.. forcing cookie cutters? Sorry, that's exactly what they'll be doing. Then this game is no different to me than wow but ateast WoW servers aren't dead like mine.

[Terrestrial]

THey are doing something wrong. Hybrids sprung up precisely because the 31 point talents are ABYSMAL. So instead of fixing the problem, they kill the result and hope that players will stick with a gimped class rather than rerolling or quitting. Wow, they must think we are idiots then.

[Daellia]

THey are doing something wrong. Hybrids sprung up precisely because the 31 point talents are ABYSMAL. So instead of fixing the problem, they kill the result and hope that players will stick with a gimped class rather than rerolling or quitting. Wow, they must think we are idiots then.

 

The sad thing is, they are probably right about the majority of the players.

[Coogihat]

The sad thing is, they are probably right about the majority of the players.

 

Yup.. BW has the power in this situation. If we want to play a sorcerer, this is the only option we have. And that's fine with them, they don't care about us.

 

What they care about is subscriber count (see: recent sudden 'patch' for weekend pass) and addressing large complaints. Imo their reasoning goes like this: if we don't find a way to please the sorc QQ'ers, it will be a bigger problem than if we don't (and keep sorcs happy). So they choose option A: nerf sorcs to please majority.

 

Understandable. But this also shows us (imo) what kind of company BW is. They don't care about the individual customer, or a sub-group of customers for that matter. Big picture is all that matters to them.

[machineheadgr]

The dmg numbers the hybrid puts up are misleading. There are mercs and operatives that put up the same numbers using single target rotations.

 

The CC the hybrid has is also misleading. It may seem like it has a lot of tools but the way DR works in this game its too easy too fill up resolve bars on multiple targets using only knock backs and from the blind on static barrier, leaving an entire group of the enemies free to beat you down. The only aoe snare the class has is linked to the knock back spell when it should just be a separate spell.

 

In a 1v1 against any melee class that isn't a mouth breather, the hybrid needs all of this cc just to stand a chance and still will probably lose a large majority of the time.

 

Yes, the 31 point talents suck in pvp. All 3 of them. And the utility you gain by not going that deep into the tree is just a better value. Thundering Blast hits like a truck, and players know how to keep you from getting it off. It should be a lower tier ability not a 31 point talent. Reviv is terrible. An AOE HoT that requires everyone to stand in a circle for 10 seconds. Oh and the 2.9 activation time lol. Creeping terror is a good tool but once again not really 31 point status. It should be lower in the tree for what it is. The insta immobilize is nice, but the dot is lack luster. DoT's in general aren't so good with no protection. Like others have mentioned there's no burst in this spec and only 1 dot can be cast on multiple targets. Its really easy for heals to heal through sustained dps rather than op coordinated burst into a small window created by a CC or lockout.

[Infalliable]

Hybrids will still be popular, b/c the majority of the 31 pt skills aren't anything special. Snipers have many of the same issues. Their 31 pt skills also are junk. So hybrids there are becoming quite popular.

 

you'll just start seeing hybrids that focus less on the wraith proc of CL. Really, just knocking the 20% buff off wraith (even just the buff on AOE attacks) will fix most of the issues.

 

Understandable. But this also shows us (imo) what kind of company BW is. They don't care about the individual customer, or a sub-group of customers for that matter. Big picture is all that matters to them.

 

When you have 1-2 mil customers, how can you please everyone?

[Coogihat]

When you have 1-2 mil customers, how can you please everyone?

 

You can't. Which you already know, hence your rhetorical question.

 

But that has nothing to do with the nerf to sorcs. What you are doing here is holding up the 'you can't please everyone' notion as if that validates BW's nerf to sorcerers. It doesn't.

 

They could have gives us a much more 'fair' nerf. Many people have offered good suggestions: boosts to 31-point trees, less dmg on CL or less activation time on Wrath etc.

 

In that way they could have adressed the boohoo sorc OP complaints while still keeping the sorc population relatively happy. But as I said, BW only cares about big picture and quick problem-resolving, not getting the best resolution for all parties.

[Eldzsiah]

I totaly agree with this.

My sorc in pvp. Deffensives:

-Bubble = onehit (in full champion gear).

-Sprint ?? To where? If u are rooted/choked etc. but you may secure a little breath if you are good.

-Slow = ok this is cool sometimes if it not dispelled. Uhh or not? The enemy has jump, harpoon, "vanish" etc. Hm then not cool. But sometimes it help.

-Electrocute = It have a big cd and big influence to resolve. Too big..

(If u see a smuggler or ia, they can stun u 2-3 times in a row and just after u get the full resolve)

-Whirlwind = same as electrocute.. I need to tell more about this resolve problem ?

I have 3-4 cool damage abbilities (+1 instant aoe) but i dont have a chance to burst without the wrath proc. (The df+crushing instant (+1 sec gcd) combo is a joke. If u mean that is a burst.. hmm ok call it burst but i will wanted to see same "burst" methode to othere classes.)

Why? Because if i on madness, i have a nice useless top talent (creeping t.). 16 sec uptime? In pvp? Ok i dont want to talk about this. U know what i mean. (if not, i help to u with respect : dispellable)

If i choose the lightning top talent (thundering b.) thats a good way for burst if i have a lot of time in pvp to cast it. I have time for that? No.No.No. If u try cast this u will be interrupted. Or if u are lucky u do 2-3k dmg. But you will not be.

I don't quite get the idea why u choose this way in Bioware. I hope so you recognise that there is an other opportunity and you consider it because these changes do not help with the balance. I dont think only the wrath changes. If u need to change it ok do it, but please see the problem and hold it before an eye.

Ruins the people game experience if their favourite character will be unusable.

 

/wave

Edited March 26, 2012 by Eldzsiah

[DahsinKha]

I for one, will just get over it, adapt my playstyle and adjust.

 

Personally, I am in favour of specialization. I cut my teeth in Everquest where there was set speciallised CC (Enchanters) Healers (Clerics) DPS (Wiz) for example. I dont like classes that can do everything and be untouchable. When devs see one class become untouchable, then it will be brought in line. (Oh and I have played every MMO out there over that past 15 years so know what I am on about ).

 

I like the fact that it will be more attractive to specialise as a healer, CC or DPS and hopefully create sorcs that are masters of either. Hybrids should be limited. In EQ, arguable the grandfather of MMO, druids were said to be jack of all trades, masters of none. Paladins and Shadow Knights were good tanks and off tanks as hybrids, but warriors were the main raid tanks. It is a shame that many games have gone away from this concept to please the cryers who want to have it all.

 

You are focusing on the negative, be grateful for what you have, not for what you haven't got.

 

For those that cannot adapt and adjust, and leave in a tantrum, bye bye, and thankyou in advance for making me apart of a small elite group.

 

(Yes I am tired and annoyed of all the crying whenever balance comes into play when babies have their rattles taken for making too much noise.)

Edited March 23, 2012 by DahsinKha

[crimsonki]

I for one, will just get over it, adapt my playstyle and adjust.

 

Personally, I am in favour of specialization. I cut my teeth in Everquest where there was set speciallised CC (Enchanters) Healers (Clerics) DPS (Wiz) for example. I dont like classes that can do everything and be untouchable. When devs see one class become untouchable, then it will be brought in line. (Oh and I have played every MMO out there over that past 15 years so know what I am on about ).

 

I like the fact that it will be more attractive to specialise as a healer, CC or DPS and hopefully create sorcs that are masters of either. Hybrids should be limited. In EQ, arguable the grandfather of MMO, druids were said to be jack of all trades, masters of none. Paladins and Shadow Knights were good tanks and off tanks as hybrids, but warriors were the main raid tanks. It is a shame that many games have gone away from this concept to please the cryers who want to have it all.

 

You are focusing on the negative, be grateful for what you have, not for what you haven't got.

 

For those that cannot adapt and adjust, and leave in a tantrum, bye bye, and thankyou in advance for making me apart of a small elite group.

 

(Yes I am tired and annoyed of all the crying whenever balance comes into play when babies have their rattles taken for making too much noise.)

 

You'll end up crying when 3 FOTM marauders jump you and all smash you for 7k.

Stop helping morons (bads) think that one of the most nerfed classes in the game is OP.

If you're not going to help the cause just shut the **** up. You're nerfing an already nerfed class.

[Eldzsiah]

Crimsonki thats the point!