Before you make another teary eyed thread please consider:

[Fight]

Please stop reading the patch notes and crying into your keyboards without thinking logically.

 

There are changes to Diminishing returns, Itemization changes including stat budgeting, new tiers of gear, changes to how the accuracy mechanic works and is applied, more diverse mods to play with and completely new changes to the mathematics of PVP and PVE in 1.2

 

Yes on paper it looks like a nerf but the above changes will probably negate the nerfs or in fact make us more powerful overall.

 

We have NO idea at all without way more details filtering through from testing how this will affect our class overall. Please try to keep an open mind.

 

Hugs and Kisses

[Fishcatch]

This. My main is a Combat Medic... we will get hit very hard in 1.2. At first I didnt understand and felt like ragequitting, but now I want to wait and see. I'm not going to say BW broke my class before I try to play it after 1.2.

[germil]

Please stop reading the patch notes and crying into your keyboards without thinking logically.

 

There are changes to Diminishing returns, Itemization changes including stat budgeting, new tiers of gear, changes to how the accuracy mechanic works and is applied, more diverse mods to play with and completely new changes to the mathematics of PVP and PVE in 1.2

 

Yes on paper it looks like a nerf but the above changes will probably negate the nerfs or in fact make us more powerful overall.

 

We have NO idea at all without way more details filtering through from testing how this will affect our class overall. Please try to keep an open mind.

 

Hugs and Kisses

 

Its cool to repeat the words of George Zoeller, and you are rigth, we need to take these notes with caution.

 

However the magnitude of the changes here are far from a few %. And I don't see how it is possible "under the hood" changes can aleviate for such a drop in healing troughput. Even if it where the case, smuggler are not affected by nerf, and would take profit of the game changes. And no, for playing one, they are currently a little behing, especially in PVP and on pressure phases due to limited and not linear pool, but not that far behind.

 

To give a idea of the situation post patch is actually quite simple.

 

What are the benefice of speccing into combat medic?

 

- Maybe 10% 20% raw increase from talents like supercharge cell, field medescine, potent medescine.

-Trauma probe? It will become just a little better heal/ammo than our direct heal, and we can cast it once every 30sec, so it is marginal at best.

-Maybe 5 ammos / 30 sec from talents supercharge cell and field triage. Taht you can translate into 2 direct heal in this 30 sec window.

-Bacta Infusion : 1 direc heal

 

So 1 (bacta) + 2 (ammo gains) = 3 more direct heal equivalent you can cast in 30 sec, by speccing into combat medics, compare to lets say a full gunnery. And maybe 15% raw increase.

 

Basically as you can see the benefice of Combat Medic talents becomes much lower. With tons of under budgeted talents (3 points for 1 ammo every 7.5 sec, 5 points for 15% surge ...)

 

Have you try to main heal in gunnery spec?

 

If mechanisms, items budgets allow a full 31 heal to be able to heal HL PVE, it will basically makes full DPS spec OP because of very good heal capability, as it is not the Medic tree which brings the tools to make you a healer.

 

 

In commando, the core of the class is ammo regen / efficiency.

You would be an ammazing DPS by spamming Power shot if it were ammo neutral.

You would be an ammazing Hheal by spamming medical probes if it were ammo neutral.

 

The main benefice of trees is to bring down the cost of specialized abilities so that they become viable or introduce indirect regen mechanisms.

 

If you nerf that by lets say by 50%, you totally cripple the viability of the role.

 

 

I have I believe a good experience/understanding of MMO mechanisms because I always try to go deep into the comprehension of the classes I play. I am also more of a wait and see guy, but here, by seeing the impact of changes, it is obvious to me it is out of line.

 

I do believe the will be reverted/compensated somehow because these changes are just game breaking, especially PVE wise where the impact can be clearly seen, and because log will be introduced. But I have unsubbed, not because of the changes directly (and I could play the smuggler), but because I have lost faith in BW. After Ilum fiasco, and this... and lack of sensible communication (great, posting the notes on Friday), doubtfull numbers on subscribtions, empty servers etc...

[Serialx]

Please stop reading the patch notes and crying into your keyboards without thinking logically.

 

There are changes to Diminishing returns, Itemization changes including stat budgeting, new tiers of gear, changes to how the accuracy mechanic works and is applied, more diverse mods to play with and completely new changes to the mathematics of PVP and PVE in 1.2

 

Yes on paper it looks like a nerf but the above changes will probably negate the nerfs or in fact make us more powerful overall.

 

We have NO idea at all without way more details filtering through from testing how this will affect our class overall. Please try to keep an open mind.

 

Hugs and Kisses

 

Maybe Georg is right but to me those "under the hood" changes he stated translate to: "We screwed up and now I'm here trying to make you guys stay a bit longer so we have more time to try to fix things a bit".

IMO an MMO should NEVER have "under the hood" changes, they need to post EVERYTHING that changed on the patch notes, and I can't see how changing diminishing returns or giving us more stats will solve the regen problem, stronger heals means nothing if you can't cast them.

 

The only thing i can see them doing is giving us more regen through set bonuses, but then again what a *********** stupid idea, nerfing the class because they wanted to give us regen through set bonuses.

 

And again, every healer would benefit from those stat changes so that still means we are now the worst healer of the 3 and i can't see why any raid leader would bring a commando/merc healer if they can bring better healers (plus they both have a battle ress).

[Fight]

Maybe Georg is right but to me those "under the hood" changes he stated translate to: "We screwed up and now I'm here trying to make you guys stay a bit longer so we have more time to try to fix things a bit".

IMO an MMO should NEVER have "under the hood" changes, they need to post EVERYTHING that changed on the patch notes, and I can't see how changing diminishing returns or giving us more stats will solve the regen problem, stronger heals means nothing if you can't cast them.

 

The only thing i can see them doing is giving us more regen through set bonuses, but then again what a *********** stupid idea, nerfing the class because they wanted to give us regen through set bonuses.

 

And again, every healer would benefit from those stat changes so that still means we are now the worst healer of the 3 and i can't see why any raid leader would bring a commando/merc healer if they can bring better healers (plus they both have a battle ress).

 

As much as I agree with full disclosure do you see them posting full stats for every new item of armour, weaponry and accessories, as well as changes to crew skills which will also affect itemization?

 

They are still working on this stuff. I'm not here to defend Bioware, I'm here to alleviate the apocalyptic threads being removed and moved around the forums on a minutely basis. We don't have all the facts, that doesn't make it the worst news ever, it just makes it news.

[Fight]

Calculations

 

You seem very logical, yet you just did more mathematics above without knowing all of the variables.

 

Thats like saying 2 + 2 - (unsure of this number) = 1

[Dast]

Its cool to repeat the words of George Zoeller, and you are rigth, we need to take these notes with caution.

 

However the magnitude of the changes here are far from a few %. And I don't see how it is possible "under the hood" changes can aleviate for such a drop in healing troughput. Even if it where the case, smuggler are not affected by nerf, and would take profit of the game changes. And no, for playing one, they are currently a little behing, especially in PVP and on pressure phases due to limited and not linear pool, but not that far behind.

 

To give a idea of the situation post patch is actually quite simple.

 

What are the benefice of speccing into combat medic?

 

- Maybe 10% 20% raw increase from talents like supercharge cell, field medescine, potent medescine.

-Trauma probe? It will become just a little better heal/ammo than our direct heal, and we can cast it once every 30sec, so it is marginal at best.

-Maybe 5 ammos / 30 sec from talents supercharge cell and field triage. Taht you can translate into 2 direct heal in this 30 sec window.

-Bacta Infusion : 1 direc heal

 

So 1 (bacta) + 2 (ammo gains) = 3 more direct heal equivalent you can cast in 30 sec, by speccing into combat medics, compare to lets say a full gunnery. And maybe 15% raw increase.

 

Basically as you can see the benefice of Combat Medic talents becomes much lower. With tons of under budgeted talents (3 points for 1 ammo every 7.5 sec, 5 points for 15% surge ...)

 

Have you try to main heal in gunnery spec?

 

If mechanisms, items budgets allow a full 31 heal to be able to heal HL PVE, it will basically makes full DPS spec OP because of very good heal capability, as it is not the Medic tree which brings the tools to make you a healer.

 

 

In commando, the core of the class is ammo regen / efficiency.

You would be an ammazing DPS by spamming Power shot if it were ammo neutral.

You would be an ammazing Hheal by spamming medical probes if it were ammo neutral.

 

The main benefice of trees is to bring down the cost of specialized abilities so that they become viable or introduce indirect regen mechanisms.

 

If you nerf that by lets say by 50%, you totally cripple the viability of the role.

 

 

I have I believe a good experience/understanding of MMO mechanisms because I always try to go deep into the comprehension of the classes I play. I am also more of a wait and see guy, but here, by seeing the impact of changes, it is obvious to me it is out of line.

 

I do believe the will be reverted/compensated somehow because these changes are just game breaking, especially PVE wise where the impact can be clearly seen, and because log will be introduced. But I have unsubbed, not because of the changes directly (and I could play the smuggler), but because I have lost faith in BW. After Ilum fiasco, and this... and lack of sensible communication (great, posting the notes on Friday), doubtfull numbers on subscribtions, empty servers etc...

Already unsubbed with nary a tear in sight.

I dont see how in pvp it wont affect us. I do 150k healing 150k damage usually in wz. Smugglers and Sages routinely do 700k healing.

I can read bioware, can you? It is just mind boggling they would think combat medic needs a nerf.

WTH

[RedWolfs]

Maybe Georg is right but to me those "under the hood" changes he stated translate to: "We screwed up and now I'm here trying to make you guys stay a bit longer so we have more time to try to fix things a bit".

IMO an MMO should NEVER have "under the hood" changes, they need to post EVERYTHING that changed on the patch notes, and I can't see how changing diminishing returns or giving us more stats will solve the regen problem, stronger heals means nothing if you can't cast them.

 

The only thing i can see them doing is giving us more regen through set bonuses, but then again what a *********** stupid idea, nerfing the class because they wanted to give us regen through set bonuses.

 

And again, every healer would benefit from those stat changes so that still means we are now the worst healer of the 3 and i can't see why any raid leader would bring a commando/merc healer if they can bring better healers (plus they both have a battle ress).

 

Yup this is a huge cluster ****, BW could not have failed to manage expectations any worse. Tossing those patch notes out without a full explanation of why it isn't what it looks like was dumb. It cost them good faith with their player base with no benefit to Bioware.

 

Lets see, three weeks ago they should have started talking about the changes to the back end mechanics, a risky and questionable move for any MMO to make, give those changes time to be absorbed by the community. I mean raw info as to the sort of back end changes being made, not vague mentions followed by try it you will like it. As it stand people see the nerfs you spelled out in black and white, and you are trusting and asking them to wait and see the stuff you put out in greys to off set it. DUMB MOVE.

 

Even if the outcome is players are effectively more powerful against current fights, this has cost Bioware money they did not need to loose. Since prior to launch Bioware's biggest problem in my view has been communications. This would not be the first Star Wars MMO I left because the company could not communicate with players and it would not be the first Star Wars MMO to fail. Star Wars does not equal automatic success you still need to remember who your customers are and why they give you their money.

[Aaoogaa]

This isn't alpha or beta. We are 3 months after launch. I like my class the way it plays. I don't give a flying fig about how George and his team of halfwits wants to change the game when I enjoy how it plays now. If these changes go live I will not be around. Already canceled...sub expires in 2 days. Their communication peeps better step it up into high gear because I am not going through another blizzard style shaman nerfing only to have the class semi playable 2 years later. Edited March 18, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Fight]

Already unsubbed with nary a tear in sight.

I dont see how in pvp it wont affect us. I do 150k healing 150k damage usually in wz. Smugglers and Sages routinely do 700k healing.

I can read bioware, can you? It is just mind boggling they would think combat medic needs a nerf.

WTH

 

All jokes aside, I don't know how you can possibly be doing this bad unless you are in leveling greens and very new to the class.

[Dast]

All jokes aside, I don't know how you can possibly be doing this bad unless you are in leveling greens and very new to the class.

 

Tell me oh enlightened one, how is that bad for a combat medic? As far as I have seen at valor rank 52 its on the high side for combat medic in wz.

My gear is 4/5 rakata, for pvp I put 2 pieces of champion on since the expertise damage and damage reduction are not worth the health loss, damage, and damage mitigation for 140 armor vs champion.

How many wz does it take to get to valor 52? A lot is all I know and I have only been beaten once by another combat medics score that was 2k more than mine, while my damage was higher.

I see sorc/sage/smuggler do 500k to 700k almost every warzone.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dast

[Mercykiller]

Unless the tier bonuses are "regenerate an extra ammo every 3 seconds" any notes beyond ammo nerfs are irrelevant.

[Aaoogaa]

Tell me oh enlightened one, how is that bad for a combat medic? As far as I have seen at valor rank 52 its on the high side for combat medic in wz.

My gear is 4/5 rakata, for pvp I put 2 pieces of champion on since the expertise damage and damage reduction are not worth the health loss, damage, and damage mitigation for 140 armor vs champion.

How many wz does it take to get to valor 52? A lot is all I know and I have only been beaten once by another combat medics score that was 2k more than mine, while my damage was higher.

I see sorc/sage/smuggler do 500k to 700k almost every warzone.

 

I do over 450k healing 80% of the time and break 500k often. Different WZs mean different numbers (usually around 300k in huttball since it is less about killing and more about scoring) but if you are doing 150k damage and 150k healing you are more than likely hybrid spec and not fully heal specced or soloing way to much in warzones.

 

Also as a healer expertise is by far a better stat for a healer because of the healing boost and the damage reduction. 12% reduced damage + 12% increased heals will do much more for survivability than 3k more hps (that is about 1 hit). In essence you are taking 10% more damage from everything while doing potentially about the same healing. Not the best gear selection.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Dast]

I do over 450k healing 80% of the time and break 500k often. Different WZs mean different numbers (usually around 300k in huttball since it is less about killing and more about scoring) but if you are doing 150k damage and 150k healing you are more than likely hybrid spec and not fully heal specced or soloing way to much in warzones.

 

Also as a healer expertise is by far a better stat for a healer because of the healing boost and the damage reduction. 12% reduced damage + 12% increased heals will do much more for survivability than 3k more hps (that is about 1 hit). In essence you are taking 10% more damage from everything while doing potentially about the same healing. Not the best gear selection.

 

You must mean with BM armor, cause no way champion armor is gonna give me those numbers.

When I used full champion armor my damage and healing are reduced to 75k/75k.

I am full combat medic with 9 points in gunnery.

I will use the bm armor if/when I get it, but for now im using the armor that increases my scores the most.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dast

[Frisemort]

You must mean with BM armor, cause no way champion armor is gonna give me those numbers.

When I used full champion armor my damage and healing are reduced to 75k/75k.

I am full combat medic with 9 points in gunnery.

 

The nerfs are hard but please stop talking nonsense, we don't need this as a class.

 

I've unsubed too due to 1.2 bodyguard changes but telling people that you can't do better than 75k/75k in champion gear is laughable. Every competent bodyguard i know (me included) can break the 400-500k healing mark in voidstar while wearing champion stuff (i won't comment DPS that's not our role and if you really do 150k Dmg in a WZ you better reconsider your gameplay, i very rarely hit the 75k dmg medal while healing).

BM stuff is not the big upgrade you think it is, champion geared bodyguards are doing fine at the moment.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Frisemort

[Aaoogaa]

You must mean with BM armor, cause no way champion armor is gonna give me those numbers.

When I used full champion armor my damage and healing are reduced to 75k/75k.

I am full combat medic with 9 points in gunnery.

I will use the bm armor if/when I get it, but for now im using the armor that increases my scores the most.

 

I am full champion...valor 54. I have no issues hitting 60-70k damage along with 450k healing. Keep in mind this is not up to champ geared sages that do between 500-600K...but I feel that I hold my own.

[Dast]

The nerfs are hard but please stop talking nonsense, we don't need this as a class.

 

I've unsubed too due to 1.2 bodyguard changes but telling people that you can't do better than 75k/75k in champion gear is laughable. Every competent bodyguard i know (me included) can break the 400-500k healing mark in voidstar while wearing champion stuff (i won't comment DPS that's not our role and if you really do 150k Dmg in a WZ you better reconsider your gameplay, i very rarely hit the 75k dmg medal while healing).

BM stuff is not the big upgrade you think it is, champion geared bodyguards are doing fine at the moment.

 

Nonsence? Its truth. Most all our wz are against fully bm geared imps.

[uzairzaidi]

I like the changes. We are by far the most powerful healers in PVP - anyone who denies that has got to be kidding themselves.

 

Let's see how things pan out when the patch goes live.

[Frisemort]

Nonsence? Its truth. Most all our wz are against fully bm geared imps.

 

Then you're just bad, sorry for you bro.

[Aritok]

Please stop reading the patch notes and crying into your keyboards without thinking logically.

 

There are changes to Diminishing returns, Itemization changes including stat budgeting, new tiers of gear, changes to how the accuracy mechanic works and is applied, more diverse mods to play with and completely new changes to the mathematics of PVP and PVE in 1.2

 

Yes on paper it looks like a nerf but the above changes will probably negate the nerfs or in fact make us more powerful overall.

 

We have NO idea at all without way more details filtering through from testing how this will affect our class overall. Please try to keep an open mind.

 

Hugs and Kisses

 

But you do know, that if these diminishing returns changes are THIS big to compensate 30% healing lose for us, it means everyone else get this buff as well, and will do STILL alot more than us? Unless these changes are commando only, it does not help at all.

 

Pls, think first, post after. It will be better for all of us.

[Dast]

Then you're just bad, sorry for you bro.

Thats really funny, cause I have looked at the wz stats every game, and I am on the top on combat medics damage and healing most every game.

[Frisemort]

Thats really funny, cause I have looked at the wz stats every game, and I am on the top on combat medics damage and healing most every game.

 

So they are worst than you, your server must be a fun place to play XD

[Dast]

So they are worst than you, your server must be a fun place to play XD

 

As far as I can determine, the discrepancy between combat medic and bodyguard is because of imbalance between the mirrors.

 

From RuQu's post at sithwarrior.com:

 

Interestingly, your point is valid for Mercs, and not for Commandos. I go into detail in this post, with charts.

 

Essentially it comes down to improper balance of the Ammo mechanic vs Heat. Mercs see an increase in Rapid Shot usage while maintaining the same ~120 level of Healing Scan and Rapid Scan casts. Commandos do not see this, they see the drop mentioned above, from 122 to 105.

 

The difference is in the size of the windows for regen. While Healing Scan + Rapid Scan and Adv Probe + Med Probe both cost 25% of the resources before regen (16+9 Heat out of 100 vs 2+1 Ammo out of 12), the resource zones differ. Mercs enter medium after spending 40% of their resource (40 Heat), while Commandos drop into medium after only 33.33% (8/12), so even fairly conservative play will have a Commando dropping into medium regen sooner, and that has consequences.

 

The window imbalance is not made up for at the other end either. Mercs can heal in the medium zone until 20% remaining (80/100 Heat), while Commandos drop into low regen at 25% (3/12 Ammo). To put the final padding on it, Merc have a 4 Heat cushion on top, their resource is out of 100 instead of 96 (8*12), using the 8 Heat to 1 Ammo conversion used in all the skills and abilities. This gives Mercs a bigger cushion in both zones, for abilities with identical coefficients and near identical cost (the only difference is a hard cast Rapid Scan costs 25 instead of 24 Heat, but when used with HSc this difference goes away and both are 25%).

 

So where do those extra AP+MP casts go? They get sucked away into the void of decreased Effective Costs that were balanced for Bounty Hunters and then improperly ported to Troopers. (The smoothness of the BH animations compared to the many animation delays on Troopers has also been suggested as evidence that the one was designed first then ported late and never polished.)

 

 

So basically the combat medic is the worst healer in the game, bioware is kicking us in the nads while were down, and I get abuse on the forums due to biowares design decisions and implementation.

 

Did I miss anything or misunderstand? I dont think so.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dast

[Syylara]

According to sithwarrior.com

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?pid=17802#pid17802

 

The only change I could find to ratings is in expertise itself, which sees the following:

 

Cap increased to 0.5 from 0.2

Divisor increased to 0.8 from 0.72

 

Net change is a slight decrease to benefit until 300, at which point the new curve and old curve cross over. Past that point, Expertise gets better and better compared to live.

 

So no change to surge/crit/alacrity/accuracy/defense/absorb/shield/armor in the 1.2 client files?

 

Nope (didn't check armor, actually, but the rest I did). Triple-checked all of them (including the stat->bonus and stat->crit conversions). None of them have changed except Expertise.

[Chuck_Diesel]

But you do know, that if these diminishing returns changes are THIS big to compensate 30% healing lose for us, it means everyone else get this buff as well, and will do STILL alot more than us? Unless these changes are commando only, it does not help at all.

 

Pls, think first, post after. It will be better for all of us.

 

This. The nerfs to commando are cripplingly huge, no matter what kind of universal buffs they implement.