Lethality > MM Sniper - From a diehard MM supporter

[Ayestes]

I think people exhagerate a lot. I've been experimenting with Lethality and Marksman a lot lately (on live and PTS) and a lot of the claims are rather outlandish.

 

Marksman is a lot more mobile then most people give credit.

 

Lethality is a lot more bursty then people give credit. It can also target swap a lot better then most people seem to believe as well.

 

Both of these specs when you consider just the Sniper class are viable and have different strengths. They only have one extreme weakness apiece, and most of you tend to gloss over them.

 

Now obviously, a Marksman isn't as mobile as Lethality. Also obviously, Marksman can target swap faster then a Lethality spec. Marksman has much faster snap burst and Lethality has stronger delayed burst. That doesn't make the other spec bad at it, it's just not as good as the other one.

 

The real weaknesses of the specs are Defense Chance or Dispels. Both of which can be somewhat worked around by clever target selection and / or deception. However these issues are far too punishing in my own opinion, and are something that should be softened by BioWare.

 

Personally I've been riding around mostly as a Marksman as of late bursting down Healers with an allied Pyro Powertech. It's working well for me right now in Huttball. However given different allies I could easily see Lethality being just as if not more viable. Neither of the specs are inherently better then the other in a general sense. Most people here are probably all correct, because they are analyzing their spec based on their own situations. Obviously you play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses as a Spec. Also, I personally believe that Marksman requires a certain amount of gear to succeed.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Ayestes

[DestyOwn]

I think people exhagerate a lot. I've been experimenting with Lethality and Marksman a lot lately (on live and PTS) and a lot of the claims are rather outlandish.

 

Marksman is a lot more mobile then most people give credit.

 

Lethality is a lot more bursty then people give credit. It can also target swap a lot better then most people seem to believe as well.

 

Both of these specs when you consider just the Sniper class are viable and have different strengths. They only have one extreme weakness apiece, and most of you tend to gloss over them.

 

Now obviously, a Marksman isn't as mobile as Lethality. Also obviously, Marksman can target swap faster then a Lethality spec. Marksman has much faster snap burst and Lethality has stronger delayed burst. That doesn't make the other spec bad at it, it's just not as good as the other one.

 

The real weaknesses of the specs are Defense Chance or Dispels. Both of which can be somewhat worked around by clever target selection and / or deception. However these issues are far too punishing in my own opinion, and are something that should be softened by BioWare.

 

Personally I've been riding around mostly as a Marksman as of late bursting down Healers with an allied Pyro Powertech. It's working well for me right now in Huttball. However given different allies I could easily see Lethality being just as if not more viable. Neither of the specs are inherently better then the other in a general sense. Most people here are probably all correct, because they are analyzing their spec based on their own situations. Obviously you play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses as a Spec. Also, I personally believe that Marksman requires a certain amount of gear to succeed.

 

Agreed, i played both alot, and right now i prefer leth/eng for the reason than i can do most of my damage out of cover, and for huttball and civil war there is alot of places where your required to jump and shoot at the time in order to hit the target which with markman is impossible, except FT and TD

[painsponge]

First, I did say that I didn't think that it would work well in a rated environment.

Second, The cds being up applies to MM's burst as well.

Third, not nearly all of my attacks crit. I said my explosive probe does 5k on average including the cluster bombs not everything critting etc.

Fourth, the trinket proc happens almost every 1.5 seconds for me as a lethality hybrid.. all of the time ;P

Fifth, the target was cleansing my dots on the ball carrier - which was why i switched to him. I through the debilitate on him so that the stun + the surpise target switch would delay him till my burst was already under way so that his only chance of surviving was to heal himself.

 

1. Never mentioned a single word on MM burst, why bring it up? Don't be so defensive bud.

 

2. Maybe not all of your attacks crit, but the majority definitely did.

 

3. You said so yourself that the trinket proc multiple times in the original post, I merely copied what you've wrote.

I also have the pve rakata trinket from G4 which most likely procced 2-3 times during that.

 

4. Debiliate has a range of 4m, so now your "burst" also requires you to be within melee?

 

Anyways, you seem to be missing my point. I am not arguing which spec has more burst, nor am I comparing them in a rated environment. I just think your sporadic scenario of a "target swap 20k+ in 3 global" is misleading and not an accurate representation of lethality burst.

Edited March 21, 2012 by painsponge

[Cruorpunctis]

1. Never mentioned a single word on MM burst, why bring it up? Don't be so defensive bud.

 

2. Maybe not all of your attacks crit, but the majority definitely did.

 

3. You said so yourself that the trinket proc multiple times in the original post, I merely copied what you've wrote.

 

 

4. Debiliate has a range of 4m, so now your "burst" also requires you to be within melee?

 

Anyways, you seem to be missing my point. I am not arguing which spec has more burst, nor am I comparing them in a rated environment. I just think your sporadic scenario of a "target swap 20k+ in 3 global" is misleading and not an accurate representation of lethality burst.

 

- Not being defensive, just pointing out that if you are comparing burst for any spec you are gonna want to include cds ;P

- More then half of my attacks critting is a common scenario when I have over 50% crit ;P

- Yes I did say that it procs multiple times, however you were implying that it is not a common occurrence when it actually procs pretty much every other global, all of the time, when you have dots on the target ;P

- Debilitate is in no way required for my burst, in fact it slows it down a bit. I only used it because my target was a good merc healer who knew how to dispel, and he was running towards me with the ball carrier.

 

Here is how I see it, lethality has a small bit of setup to be able to execute it's burst. But when it does burst successfully, it can indeed do 20k in the space of 3 globals bringing most players to no hp before they have time to react. Especially if say I was playing on voidstar vs say 2 BM sorcs. I dot the first but he notices and runs behind LoS, I then switch to the second and throw CD > EP > Cull > Takedown > Dead. I kill people like this all the time. And if I get low hp centurion/random blue gear or especially tionese/random blue geared players It goes more like CD > Cull > Dead. This is assuming that I get corrosive grenade on 2+ targets allowing for easy target swapping(I click to select my target not tabbing which is terrible in this game) - if it isn't already on the target then ofc I have to add an extra global to apply CG.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Cruorpunctis

[Veala]

- Not being defensive, just pointing out that if you are comparing burst for any spec you are gonna want to include cds ;P

- More then half of my attacks critting is a common scenario when I have over 50% crit ;P

- Yes I did say that it procs multiple times, however you were implying that it is not a common occurrence when it actually procs pretty much every other global, all of the time, when you have dots on the target ;P

- Debilitate is in no way required for my burst, in fact it slows it down a bit. I only used it because my target was a good merc healer who knew how to dispel, and he was running towards me with the ball carrier.

 

Here is how I see it, lethality has a small bit of setup to be able to execute it's burst. But when it does burst successfully, it can indeed do 20k in the space of 3 globals bringing most players to no hp before they have time to react. Especially if say I was playing on voidstar vs say 2 BM sorcs. I dot the first but he notices and runs behind LoS, I then switch to the second and throw CD > EP > Cull > Takedown > Dead. I kill people like this all the time. And if I get low hp centurion/random blue gear or especially tionese/random blue geared players It goes more like CD > Cull > Dead. This is assuming that I get corrosive grenade on 2+ targets allowing for easy target swapping(I click to select my target not tabbing which is terrible in this game) - if it isn't already on the target then ofc I have to add an extra global to apply CG.

 

50% crit and 14k Culls? Do you pvp in pve gear or something? Yeah I'm sure Lethality can hit that hard in pve gear against a pve geared target. That's not what you're going to be doing in rated warzones, which I believe is what the poster you've been debating with is getting at.

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point. Marks can burst harder in a 3-4.5 second window and burst more frequently. Lethality can burst harder in a 6-9 second window and deals more damage overall. None of that is debatable, it's math.

[ButterStrawKid]

as an lethality engi hybrid sniper i beat any markmanship sniper in a 1v1. in fact they're the easiest to kill mainly because im more mobile and LoS all your casts

[Cruorpunctis]

50% crit and 14k Culls? Do you pvp in pve gear or something? Yeah I'm sure Lethality can hit that hard in pve gear against a pve geared target. That's not what you're going to be doing in rated warzones, which I believe is what the poster you've been debating with is getting at.

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point. Marks can burst harder in a 3-4.5 second window and burst more frequently. Lethality can burst harder in a 6-9 second window and deals more damage overall. None of that is debatable, it's math.

 

I play in a mix of Rakata and BM gear, with 4 x 28 cunning augments in my gear.

And I get my 53% crit due to having a talent that increases crit by 12% for dot effects (CD,CG,Cull).

 

Marks based specs can not burst more frequently under any circumstances.. lol. I do agree that MM can burst a target without the 1-2 gcds of setup, but it's burst is entirely reliant on using two 15 second cd abilities(sos and ambush) and a 30 second cd ability(Ep) for their burst.

Lethality/eng on the otherhand has Cull (9 second CD), as well as a harder hitting SoS (15 sec CD) + EP (30 sec CD) for a second (albeit slightly weaker) burst while waiting for your 9 second Cull CD.

 

P.S. I have not and never was debating how viable this spec would be for rated warzones - I have said this multiple times.

And here is a quote from the poster I was discussing this with - "I am not arguing which spec has more burst, nor am I comparing them in a rated environment."

Edited March 21, 2012 by Cruorpunctis

[Ayestes]

I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point. Marks can burst harder in a 3-4.5 second window and burst more frequently. Lethality can burst harder in a 6-9 second window and deals more damage overall. None of that is debatable, it's math.

 

Just to clarify, I believe a Marksman spec does more damage to a single target over a long period of time due to the energy sustain. Lethality will certainly do more "Damage Done" in PvP then a Marksman.

 

I wouldn't be sure about who can burst more frequently either. A Marksman can certainly target switch faster because it requires less setup, but the burst comes from Ambush.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Ayestes

[Veala]

Just to clarify, I believe a Marksman spec does more damage to a single target over a long period of time due to the energy sustain. Lethality will certainly do more "Damage Done" in PvP then a Marksman.

 

I wouldn't be sure about who can burst more frequently either. A Marksman can certainly target switch faster because it requires less setup, but the burst comes from Ambush.

 

I would argue that Marks burst really comes from Followthrough. You obviously want Ambush when you need a big burst of damage, but being able to toss out 5-6k every 6 seconds with a Snipe -> Followthrough is what really gets marks kills. I may have a different definition of burst damage, but I don't think it has to take someone from 20k to dead to qualify =p

[Cruorpunctis]

Just to clarify, I believe a Marksman spec does more damage to a single target over a long period of time due to the energy sustain. Lethality will certainly do more "Damage Done" in PvP then a Marksman.

 

I wouldn't be sure about who can burst more frequently either. A Marksman can certainly target switch faster because it requires less setup, but the burst comes from Ambush.

 

As far as sustained damage, a geared sniper using a lethality/eng hybrid will not have any energy problems vs a single target over any period of time if played correctly.

But yes it does take a bit more management then mm or mm/eng snipers who often don't even have to think about their energy in pvp.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Cruorpunctis

[Ayestes]

I would argue that Marks burst really comes from Followthrough. You obviously want Ambush when you need a big burst of damage, but being able to toss out 5-6k every 6 seconds with a Snipe -> Followthrough is what really gets marks kills. I may have a different definition of burst damage, but I don't think it has to take someone from 20k to dead to qualify =p

 

It's all relative in terms of your own definition. Followthrough can be considered burst, but Reactive Shot Ambush combined with Followthrough is the peak burst that a Marksman can offer. I believe Followthrough is one of the primary reasons that a Marksman is better at target switching then a Lethality spec, but personally I don't classify it as the source of a Marksman's burst even though it is certainly streaky damage.

 

As far as sustained damage, a geared sniper using a lethality/eng hybrid will not have any energy problems vs a single target over any period of time if played correctly.

But yes it does take a bit more management then mm or mm/eng snipers who often don't even have to think about their energy in pvp.

 

Sustained damage isn't just about energy when it comes to Lethality, it's also limited by the Cull cooldown. I could be wrong as I'm reaching into my memory for this, but I recall a DPS comparison being done awhile back on Sithwarrior.com that put Marksman above Lethality. Tibbel would have more accurate information about that.

 

In PvP a Lethality Sniper can easily keep their energy up. This doesn't change the fact that they still have to weave in more Rifle Shots then a Marksman. This isn't necessarily an indication of lower sustained dps, but it's certainly a hint. If a Lethality Sniper does two full delayed burst cycles on targets then he better have Adrenaline Probe or he'll be down on energy significantly. A Marksman Sniper can maintain their high DPCT rotation a lot longer before having to slow down with Rifle Shots or even add in an Adrenaline Probe.

 

In the end it's all circumstantial. Lethality is better in X and Y situations and Marksman is better in W and Z situations. It comes down to which situations you value more and what you prefer to play. They are both valid specs to be playing.

 

Especially when it comes to PvP, it's a lot of subjection and opinion rather then math.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Ayestes

[psi_overtake]

In the end it's all circumstantial. Lethality is better in X and Y situations and Marksman is better in W and Z situations. It comes down to which situations you value more and what you prefer to play. They are both valid specs to be playing.

 

Completely agreed. The best you can do is play to your build's strengths to make the most of your tree.

 

Marksman is better in W and Z situations.

 

I see what you did there

[painsponge]

- Not being defensive, just pointing out that if you are comparing burst for any spec you are gonna want to include cds ;P

- More then half of my attacks critting is a common scenario when I have over 50% crit ;P

- Yes I did say that it procs multiple times, however you were implying that it is not a common occurrence when it actually procs pretty much every other global, all of the time, when you have dots on the target ;P

- Debilitate is in no way required for my burst, in fact it slows it down a bit. I only used it because my target was a good merc healer who knew how to dispel, and he was running towards me with the ball carrier.

 

- You certainly sounded that way, bringing up MM burst CDs when it was never mentioned nor was part of my argument.

- 50% crit still means there is a 50% likelihood that all of your attacks will not crit.

- so you admit your 20k+ burst has multiple RnG requirements?

 

so that the stun + the surpise target switch would delay him till my burst was already under way so that his only chance of surviving was to heal himself. [/Quote]

 

- Debiliate is no way required for your burst, but in the scenario you've described, it was needed, which was my original point.

 

Especially if say I was playing on voidstar vs say 2 BM sorcs. I dot the first but he notices and runs behind LoS, I then switch to the second and throw CD > EP > Cull > Takedown > Dead. I kill people like this all the time. And if I get low hp centurion/random blue gear or especially tionese/random blue geared players It goes more like CD > Cull > Dead.[/Quote]

 

I can theorycraft too,

Stun when you Cull > GG

AoE Knockback when you Cull > GG

LoS when you Cull > GG

an OP/MERC walks by > Cleanse > GG

 

Once again you've managed to completely missed my point. You can keep holding on to your 20k+ 3 global burst and come up with these hypothetical perfect scenarios, but I think most of us would agree those cases are rare and far in between.

Edited March 21, 2012 by painsponge

[Cruorpunctis]

I would argue that Marks burst really comes from Followthrough. You obviously want Ambush when you need a big burst of damage, but being able to toss out 5-6k every 6 seconds with a Snipe -> Followthrough is what really gets marks kills. I may have a different definition of burst damage, but I don't think it has to take someone from 20k to dead to qualify =p

 

I definitely agree with you that burst doesn't mean 20k damage, and 5-6k damage could be small burst.

I just wouldn't consider snipe > ft really burst unless ofc both crit, which mm snipers ussually have as low as 30-35% crit.

[Cruorpunctis]

- You certainly sounded that way, bringing up MM burst CDs when it was never mentioned nor was part of my argument.

- 50% crit still means there is a 50% likelihood that all of your attacks will not crit.

- so you admit your 20k+ burst has multiple RnG requirements?

 

 

 

- Debiliate is no way required for your burst, but in the scenario you've described, it was needed, which was my original point.

 

 

 

I can theorycraft too,

Stun when you Cull > GG

AoE Knockback when you Cull > GG

LoS when you Cull > GG

an OP/MERC walks by > Cleanse > GG

 

Once again you've managed to completely missed my point. You can keep holding on to your 20k+ 3 global burst and come up with these hypothetical perfect scenarios, but I think most of us would agree those cases are rare and far in between.

 

Yes 20k+ burst is only possible every 3 minutes or so at the max and I was never claiming that it happens all the time, but you can easily have tons of 12-15k(depending on ability combinations) burst scenario's consistently throughout an entire warzone.

 

P.S. I play mm/eng, pure eng, and mm/lethality for pvp and I do very well in all 3. My only point is that with my nearly BiS gear I burst people alot faster in lethality/eng then I do in either other spec.

Yes mm/eng can have perfect burst situations with adrenal and relic up where they do 5kish ambush > 3.5k EP > 3.5k FT > 6.5k+ (SoS + Cluster Bombs) , for a total of around 18.5k damage over ~5 globals if everything crits and nothing is deflected etc. The difference is that you require alot more rng then lethality/eng does to see situations like that.

[Noctournys]

which mm snipers ussually have as low as 30-35% crit.

 

....what?

 

Why would you EVER bottom out your crit like that?

 

i roll just shy of 40% bare crit in my PvP gear, with the surge softcap.

[Cruorpunctis]

Sustained damage isn't just about energy when it comes to Lethality, it's also limited by the Cull cooldown. I could be wrong as I'm reaching into my memory for this, but I recall a DPS comparison being done awhile back on Sithwarrior.com that put Marksman above Lethality. Tibbel would have more accurate information about that.

 

Well go look at alot of the later pages in the MM sniper dps compendium. It was quite solidly proven using Tibbel's spreadsheet that the lethality hybrid has more burst over a 12 second window then either of the other pve specs even with 5x armor debuff on the target and no chance of your abilities being deflected, and that the dps disparity only increased when the armor debuff on the target was changed from 5 stacks to 3 and so on.

There were also quite a few people saying that the lethality hybrid does more damage in pve even with 5x armor debuff in sustained based on both in game tests and the spreadsheet.. although not by an incredibly large margin or anything.

 

And yes I know this was for pve so really none of that can be taken as fact for a pvp arguement.. just replying to your claim that tibbel said lethality was below the other spec's for sustained or anything else, which he never did.

[Cruorpunctis]

....what?

 

Why would you EVER bottom out your crit like that?

 

i roll just shy of 40% bare crit in my PvP gear, with the surge softcap.

 

Because power is worth like double crit's value for mm.. even at the cost of slightly less rng burst?

[Cruorpunctis]

In the end it's all circumstantial. Lethality is better in X and Y situations and Marksman is better in W and Z situations. It comes down to which situations you value more and what you prefer to play. They are both valid specs to be playing.

 

I 100% agree with this though.

[Noctournys]

Because power is worth like double crit's value for mm.. even at the cost of slightly less rng burst?

 

.. where are you going to get this power? out of your butt?

 

You cant get power without also getting an equal helping of a completely useless stat (accuracy or surge WAY over the softcap).

[Veala]

.. where are you going to get this power? out of your butt?

 

You cant get power without also getting an equal helping of a completely useless stat (accuracy or surge WAY over the softcap).

 

You use the level 56 Power/Surge enhancements and the level 58 Cunning/Power mods. You do end up with a little more Surge than you need but all the extra power is worth it.

[Cruorpunctis]

.. where are you going to get this power? out of your butt?

 

You cant get power without also getting an equal helping of a completely useless stat (accuracy or surge WAY over the softcap).

 

You switch out your mods from 61 cunning 11 crit to 48 cunning 37 power - a huge dps increase but a loss in crit chance.

[Cruorpunctis]

You use the level 56 Power/Surge enhancements and the level 58 Cunning/Power mods. You do end up with a little more Surge than you need but all the extra power is worth it.

 

This is doable too, but I prefer the 58 enhancements since I have been able to get them from nightmare 16 ops for all the slots I would use then in but 2 so far.

Also you don't need to have too much surge, I just sim myself using Tibbel's spreadsheet and then switch an enhancement for crit surge when crit's value reaches .90 power or above. The spreadsheet was also how I got my best distribution of expertise compared to other stats from a dps standpoint.. I'd reccomend you try it ;D

Edited March 21, 2012 by Cruorpunctis

[Veala]

This is doable too, but I prefer the 58 mods since I have been able to get them from nightmare 16 ops for all of my slots slots but 1 so far

 

Color me jealous, I don't have time to raid these days =p

[Cruorpunctis]

Color me jealous, I don't have time to raid these days =p

 

I actually meant to say enhancements and all slots but 2 ;P But I also have the mod for every single slot haha.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Cruorpunctis