IndisSeadreamer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) I leveled to BM with a Hybrid Spec (0/13/28). But I've rethought the spec, and come to something I like much better (7/3/31) - which is different than most full balance specs I've seen people suggest. Logic: Pro's 1) Lot of questionable points in TK tree. 2) Sever Force extra 2 sec stun has great utility. Especially helpful in Huttbal and 1v1. 3) FiB is our best spell easily (IMHO - high damage, instant, non-telegraphing, AOE, low-CD). This spec boots the damage 10% by taking the talent in the Healing tree. 4) Reduced cooldown on Deliverance is now available. 5) Signficant 'constant' damage increase with Sever Force. This has played well for me. 6) 3% increase to crit over 0/13/28. Con's: 1) Loss of TK-wave. This hurts burst, but usually FiB is up when I would choose Tk-wave. 2) Loss of 6% damage on Mind Crush. 3) Loss of a few 'trick's in TK chain. Nothing I really miss here. Try it out. It should be easy enough to figure out what skills I'm suggesting. But if people want I can post it later when I have more time. Any comments or questions - let me know... Good luck, Indis. Edited March 12, 2012 by IndisSeadreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onager Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) I don't see much reason to go to 7 points in Seer if you're not taking Telekinetic Wave, assuming the bug preventing Psychic Suffusion from affecting it is now or will eventually be fixed. Talking about questionable talents, how about lowering the cast time on Deliverance or giving yourself presence or bonus healing? Meh. You'll definitely have a better Force in Balance and Force Quake, but you'd be missing Psychic Projection. Not sure if that's a viable trade, IMO. IMO PP is worth even more than Sever Force, except for the root. Edited March 12, 2012 by Onager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinisterz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) If you already have your critical chance at it's soft cap is there a real point for the 3% critical increase? I don't know the true answer to this but I would assume it's a waste due to diminishing returns. I've seen this spec in the past. It's definitely more of a 1 vs 1 spec vs the 0/13/28 which has more AOE due to the instant TK wave. In the end, the question is do you want 1 vs 1 or more balance pvp? 0/13/28 gives you more freedom in any situation in my opinion. I'm actually going to try 7/13/21 tonight just to change things up like you did. My question with that is if the 10% in Psychic Suffusion will trump Mental Scarring in a pvp match 1 vs 1. Overall damage versus FIB 30% crit increase. Edited March 13, 2012 by Sinisterz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndisSeadreamer Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 If you already have your critical chance at it's soft cap is there a real point for the 3% critical increase? I don't know the true answer to this but I would assume it's a waste due to diminishing returns. My intial reading lead me to believe that talent driven critical increase does not apply to the cap. Only points gained from critical rating apply. I'll need to do more checking to verfiy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndisSeadreamer Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 I don't see much reason to go to 7 points in Seer if you're not taking Telekinetic Wave, assuming the bug preventing Psychic Suffusion from affecting it is now or will eventually be fixed. Talking about questionable talents, how about lowering the cast time on Deliverance or giving yourself presence or bonus healing? Meh. You'll definitely have a better Force in Balance and Force Quake, but you'd be missing Psychic Projection. Not sure if that's a viable trade, IMO. IMO PP is worth even more than Sever Force, except for the root. You are correct, I forgot to mention that one must give up PP. This is a hard trade-off to charcterize. I suspect in situations where you really can channel multiple PP's it's going to make a larger difference. The real reason for seer tree is of course, Physic Suffusion, which the buff to FiB alone justified. I use FiB almost on cooldown. Low cooldown Deliverance really speaks to how you play. Recently, to survive tougher situations, I spend more time speeding away or lifting, and then casting deliverance. The buff to force armor is more fire and forget - but not really large enough to make a notable survivabiltiy difference to me. Thanks for the comments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinisterz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) My intial reading lead me to believe that talent driven critical increase does not apply to the cap. Only points gained from critical rating apply. I'll need to do more checking to verfiy. I tested this last night and my crit chance went up by 3% on my stats. So, if you are already at your soft cap your 3% is kind of a waste. This really depends on how you are statted. Don't forget the 5% crit buff that we get from smugglers I think? Either way, this affects your soft cap also. You can always do what I did and alter your mods with the power/surge ones. This will off set your 3% crit increase making it a benefit. Edited March 13, 2012 by Sinisterz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 But I've rethought the spec, and come to something I like much better (7/3/31). Not trying to spec bash but for a mostly dot oriented spec you know that Inner Strength doesn't affect the force cost of your dots or force armor right? That means it's literally only helping you out on TKthrow (which already refunds force without the reduction) and FiB. Just something to consider, as the points may be better spent elsewhere (including mental longevity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndisSeadreamer Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Not trying to spec bash but for a mostly dot oriented spec you know that Inner Strength doesn't affect the force cost of your dots or force armor right? That means it's literally only helping you out on TKthrow (which already refunds force without the reduction) and FiB. Just something to consider, as the points may be better spent elsewhere (including mental longevity). Thank you for critical feedback! You hit on one of the problems I had with the spec. I did place two in Mental Longetivity. Here's the actual link : http://http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600G0bZdZcMfRsMkrfz.1 But I couldn't really find anythign useful to do with the remaining point. I considered going zero in TK, but even with the extra 3 points, there's no talent to get in this build that is attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndisSeadreamer Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I tested this last night and my crit chance went up by 3% on my stats. So, if you are already at your soft cap your 3% is kind of a waste. This really depends on how you are statted. Don't forget the 5% crit buff that we get from smugglers I think? Either way, this affects your soft cap also. You can always do what I did and alter your mods with the power/surge ones. This will off set your 3% crit increase making it a benefit. I think I must have completely misunderstood how the calculation worked. My understanding was that you added the crit from talents, buffs etc to the crit% gained from crit rating. Let's say the first part is 20%. And the only way you encountered diminishing returns was that you gained less crit % for each crit rating. So at 325 crit rating you have a crit % that isn't much greater than a 300 crit rating. Bottom line was that this 3% from the talent would add to the 20%, giving you a 23% base to add the crit rating on top of. This doesn't jive with what your are saying. I look forward to someone asnwering or just pointing out a good reference. Again, thank you for your help, Indis Edited March 13, 2012 by IndisSeadreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinisterz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I think I must have completely misunderstood how the calculation worked. My understanding was that you added the crit from talents, buffs etc to the crit% gained from crit rating. Let's say the first part is 20%. And the only way you encountered diminishing returns was that you gained less crit % for each crit rating. So at 325 crit rating you have a crit % that isn't much greater than a 300 crit rating. Bottom line was that this 3% from the talent would add to the 20%, giving you a 23% base to add the crit rating on top of. This doesn't jive with what your are saying. I look forward to someone asnwering or just pointing out a good reference. Again, thank you for your help, Indis Where is Khadroth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I think I must have completely misunderstood how the calculation worked. My understanding was that you added the crit from talents, buffs etc to the crit% gained from crit rating. Let's say the first part is 20%. And the only way you encountered diminishing returns was that you gained less crit % for each crit rating. So at 325 crit rating you have a crit % that isn't much greater than a 300 crit rating. Bottom line was that this 3% from the talent would add to the 20%, giving you a 23% base to add the crit rating on top of. This doesn't jive with what your are saying. I look forward to someone asnwering or just pointing out a good reference. Again, thank you for your help, Indis Well for starters, there's no real "soft cap". Everything is relative to the other stats you have at the moment. Your DR may be getting bad on a particular stat like crit rating, but if your DR is already bad on surge and alacrity too, it might be your best non-power stat for further gains still. And yes Indis, I think you said it right (though kind of confusing lol). Basically to make it more clear... Stats are only subject to their own DR curve. That means Crit Rating, only moves further up the curve with additional gains in crit rating. Talented gains in crit chance (penetrating light) and class buffs that improve crit chance (smuggler's buff) however are not subject to this and do not advance your diminishment. For example: 30% crit chance showing on your character sheet. But if 3% is from penetrating light, and 5% is from the smuggler buff, you're down to 22%. However! Willpower has it's own DR curve for it's crit gains (though not for its bonus dmg), so subtract that out (lets say 10%) and we're down to 12% crit from crit rating which is only a bit more than a third of the way to the cap (30%). The lesson is, Crit rating only DR's off of further gains from itself, so only look at the crit rating breakdown on your character sheet (not crit chance itself). Same for willpower. Edited March 13, 2012 by Khadroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndisSeadreamer Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Well for starters, there's no real "soft cap". Everything is relative to the other stats you have at the moment. Your DR may be getting bad on a particular stat like crit rating, but if your DR is already bad on surge and alacrity too, it might be your best non-power stat for further gains still. And yes Indis, I think you said it right (though kind of confusing lol). Basically to make it more clear... Stats are only subject to their own DR curve. That means Crit Rating, only moves further up the curve with additional gains in crit rating. Talented gains in crit chance (penetrating light) and class buffs that improve crit chance (smuggler's buff) however are not subject to this and do not advance your diminishment. For example: 30% crit chance showing on your character sheet. But if 3% is from penetrating light, and 5% is from the smuggler buff, you're down to 22%. However! Willpower has it's own DR curve for it's crit gains (though not for its bonus dmg), so subtract that out (lets say 10%) and we're down to 12% crit from crit rating which is only a bit more than a third of the way to the cap (30%). The lesson is, Crit rating only DR's off of further gains from itself, so only look at the crit rating breakdown on your character sheet (not crit chance itself). Same for willpower. Ok, and there is no maximum crit % right? So if I understand you right, Penetrating light will always add 3% - and therefore it's always better to take it then not to take it - independant of your crit rating.... It's not as if getting the 3% crit from talents, pushes crit off from somewhere else? Edited March 13, 2012 by IndisSeadreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinisterz Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I shouldn't have mentioned soft cap. I really meant Diminishing Returns. I'm glad we are on this discussion. I may need to make some changes with my toon if I have been incorrect. Edited March 13, 2012 by Sinisterz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Ok, and there is no maximum crit % right? So if I understand you right, Penetrating light will always add 3% - and therefore it's always better to take it then not to take it - independant of your crit rating.... It's not as if getting the 3% crit from talents, pushes crit off from somewhere else? Well I wouldn't say "always" lol. I mean many of of the hybrid specs don't take it right now because it still has to be worth more dps than another talent would be to justify taking it. But yes if you pick it up, it will always be worth 3% as it is not subject to DR. The only time it wouldn't be is if you had more than 40% crit chance and had potency active (+60%) or were casting turbulence (100% crit chance ability) as a Full TK spec, because obviously you can't have higher than 100% crit chance, which would devalue the talent some (yes this is possible with good gear, full buffs, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndisSeadreamer Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 Well I wouldn't say "always" lol. I mean many of of the hybrid specs don't take it right now because it still has to be worth more dps than another talent would be to justify taking it. But yes if you pick it up, it will always be worth 3% as it is not subject to DR. The only time it wouldn't be is if you had more than 40% crit chance and had potency active (+60%) or were casting turbulence (100% crit chance ability) as a Full TK spec, because obviously you can't have higher than 100% crit chance, which would devalue the talent some (yes this is possible with good gear, full buffs, etc). Perfect. Thank you very much *talking* this through with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longport Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Not trying to spec bash but for a mostly dot oriented spec you know that Inner Strength doesn't affect the force cost of your dots or force armor right? That means it's literally only helping you out on TKthrow (which already refunds force without the reduction) and FiB. Messing with Balance myself. Considering that you're doing a lot of spamming of TK Throw, wouldn't this help you to gain even more net Force, therefore being a positive for this spec, especially in those situations where you're DOTing up a bunch of targets or using Project a bit, which really cost you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Messing with Balance myself. Considering that you're doing a lot of spamming of TK Throw, wouldn't this help you to gain even more net Force, therefore being a positive for this spec, especially in those situations where you're DOTing up a bunch of targets or using Project a bit, which really cost you? It's still beneficial. I'm just saying that it's not *very* beneficial for a spec whose primary force drains come from abilities it doesn't affect. It's not that it doesn't help, it's that you have to weigh it against other talents at the same time. So when you're not going any deeper into the TK tree you should be questioning just how valuable it is. Edited March 13, 2012 by Khadroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longport Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Fair enough. Definitely a spec to play around with and explore. Thank you for the analysis - it's appreciated. Edited March 14, 2012 by Longport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andaman Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Not trying to spec bash but for a mostly dot oriented spec you know that Inner Strength doesn't affect the force cost of your dots or force armor right? That means it's literally only helping you out on TKthrow (which already refunds force without the reduction) and FiB. Just something to consider, as the points may be better spent elsewhere (including mental longevity). Are DoTs not considered force attack? Is this a bug or working as intended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Are DoTs not considered force attack? Is this a bug or working as intended? I have no idea if it's a bug or WAI. DoT's are "Force" type abilities for us, so I suspect the breakdown is in the use of the word "attack". If it is WAI I'd have to guess that the talent's description is just unclear and really is supposed to mean direct damage attacks only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewgal Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Sever force is great for PvP, but in PvE is not really essential. So if going to 7/3/31 to improve your PvP play, then, you made the right choice. Edited March 15, 2012 by Ewgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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