Jugg Raid gear needs to be tuned

[theLast]

I don't know how many people have noticed this, but the Rakata gear for Juggernauts is completely broken and the Assassin tank armor provides them with higher endurance than the Juggernaut gear. Additionally, the Champion and Battlemaster PVP sabers have better tanking stats than the Columi and Rakata (Rakata being worse than the Champion!).

 

If Juggernauts are designed to stand and take damage, then there really needs to be some tuning here. I'm outfitted currently in full Columi and a couple pieces of Rakata (except the saber which I would have to be stupid to switch out of Champion). I currently have 140 less endurance than a guild Assassin who is outfitted just barely with Columi (no Rakata and some pieces of regular quest gear). When this character gets geared equally to me he will have over 200 more endurance than me. How does that make sense? This same Assassin is only 3% lower on damage reduction than I am. IN LIGHT ARMOR?! I won't even get into the problem I have with their tank abilities being better than Juggernauts either because that's for a different thread (compare the damage reductions that have 12 second durations and you'll see that Juggs have a 1 minute longer cooldown).

 

Ignoring comparison to Assassin gear, the Rakata gear for Juggernaut tanks (War Leader) causes you to lose 48 x 4 = 192 shield rating and for some god awful reason has Surge on it? There is a grand total of 175 more armor rating on the Rakata than on the Columi War Leader gear. There is maybe 50 increase in endurance. There is clearly a scaling problem here. You are losing defensive skill to gain 500 more health and less than 1% damage reduction from armor.

 

I would put this in the suggestion box, but since the powers that be have hidden half their forums, I am forced to put this here. Please look at this gross failure of tanking itemization and get it fixed.

 

TL;DR - Juggernaut Columi and Rakata War Leader gear is grossly undertuned for tanking gear and needs to fixed. It should be fixed immediately and the new gear being put in with patch 1.2 should NOT repeat this mistake. This would be the first step in actually making the Juggernaut the tank class for SWTOR.

Edited March 11, 2012 by theLast

[_Zorth_]

BioWare have no idea about tanking stats..

 

They stack accuaracy on raiding gear for tanks, Not to mention the champion LS has more endurance than the Rakata one. The Inquisitor imbalance is also stupid, Light armor doesn't do any difference, they have their own little tanking stance that increases armor rating. To top it all of they have way better threat generation than us, They (like every tank should) have talents that increase threat on abilities and a huge AoE threat ability as the Spec ability.

 

It would be okay if inq's got more HP if their armor didn't get increased by their stance, But it does.. so, Jugg = underpowered.

[mirosusan]

BioWare have no idea about tanking stats..

 

They stack accuaracy on raiding gear for tanks, Not to mention the champion LS has more endurance than the Rakata one. The Inquisitor imbalance is also stupid, Light armor doesn't do any difference, they have their own little tanking stance that increases armor rating. To top it all of they have way better threat generation than us, They (like every tank should) have talents that increase threat on abilities and a huge AoE threat ability as the Spec ability.

 

It would be okay if inq's got more HP if their armor didn't get increased by their stance, But it does.. so, Jugg = underpowered.

 

Apparently, you've got no idea at all, so stop posting lies, letting them look like facts.

There is no *********** imbalance. As it is true that you need to change some mods from the Rakata pieces, the Juggernaut is ready for every raid with full Columi, keeping aggro off everyone in bossfights and more than sufficient in trash fights, everything else is just optimization. You don't need more than 21K life buffed either. Stack shield rating and absorbtion rating.

Also, I think this needs to be fixed but it isn't tragic and you can just use the Columi Mods for a while.

Edited March 11, 2012 by mirosusan

[theLast]

Apparently, you've got no idea at all, so stop posting lies, letting them look like facts.

There is no *********** imbalance. As it is true that you need to change some mods from the Rakata pieces, the Juggernaut is ready for every raid with full Columi, keeping aggro off everyone in bossfights and more than sufficient in trash fights, everything else is just optimization. You don't need more than 21K life buffed either. Stack shield rating and absorbtion rating.

Also, I think this needs to be fixed but it isn't tragic and you can just use the Columi Mods for a while.

 

Clearly you've never main tanked a hard mode or nightmare mode operation. The idea of using Columi mods in a Rakata piece is not even remotely rational. Rakata comes from Hard Mode+ operations and is supposed to prepare you for tanking Nightmare mode. It should be balanced accordingly and should NEVER require someone to swap out mods with a lower tier raiding gear.

 

As for an imbalance between Assassin and Jugg... there most certainly is one. As far as tanking goes, light armor has better tanking stats than heavy armor. Explain to me why Juggernaut Rakata gear gives up shield rating for SURGE? Why does it have absorption rating, but no shield rating (except the shield itself)? Why is the Rakata saber worse than the Champion saber? If Rakata is supposed to be the highest current tier of gear, why is it actually worse for tanking than Columi (for Juggs)? None of these problems seem to plague the Assassins.

 

The only advantage to heavy armor is armor rating (which compared to an Assassin in equal tier gear is about 1000 higher than the Assassin can get). This works out to a 3% lower damage reduction over Juggernaut (I've checked this against an Assassin in my guild, so don't even try to tell me I'm wrong).

 

The Assassin gets better threat generation abilities, additional defensive skills and resistance against certain damage types that completely bypass Juggernaut damage reduction. So yeah... there is an imbalance.

[Morsexy]

I got the impression that they had the bored intern fill in the enhancement details on a lot of items.

 

For instance did you know there IS an enhancement with power and crit on it? Which would be the holy grail for DPS.... except its a "tank" enhancement.

 

18 endurance. 39 Shield, 27 power, 27 crit. This is a level 22,

 

VS 27 power 39 surge. Now I haven't gone insane calculating which is better(ignoring the whole DR aspect). But just the fact this mod exists is a testament to how silly some item coding in the game was.

 

Given a day I bet I could easily:

1. Create correct gear and itemization for the 12 advanced class I'm familiar with, with the caveat of 2 - >

2. Have a suitable gear progression, so that yes gear set C is better than blue, but worse than Gear set B, and so on.

3. Actually balance gear between classes

 

But hey, I'm just some lowly accountant who deals in the real what is, not in "well we wish it would be like this, so we made it like this".

 

They can say whatever they want about optimizing gear to have less accuracy, but then they need to answer me why any of us, any class, wants ANY accuracy on our gear.

 

TLDR The theory is wonderful, this and 2 dollars gets you a ride on a subway

 

Accuracy is +hit below cap, and expertise above cap. Make it expertise and armor pen... = too powerful.

 

Make it not this = making it a very very bad stat to have

 

Make yellows always hit + not work like ArP, make accuracy awful for all but **maybe** 1 AC.

[Kakachan]

for people who complain about war leader gear (I have jedi guardian alt but it is same as jaggernaut), maybe you are using wrong spec, yes if you use defence spec you got very limited threat generation and you will have problem at keeping aggro also you will have less endurance, I suggest you to try something like 14/27/0 you will have better protection, more health and superior threat generation, and maybe you can understand why some gear have surge if you try that spec. Try it, I use it and I'm far more happier with this spec than using something like 31/10/0.

[bananaface]

the enhancements on all rakata gear aint optimal but bioware wants you to get the enhancements that drop in raids and remod your gear.

 

and yes 14/27/0 is the spec you roll with in HM/NMM, should give you 23k+ hp in rakata gear.

[_Zorth_]

the enhancements on all rakata gear aint optimal but bioware wants you to get the enhancements that drop in raids and remod your gear.

 

and yes 14/27/0 is the spec you roll with in HM/NMM, should give you 23k+ hp in rakata gear.

 

Still doesn't explain why Assassins get way more endurance on their gear, We have 1k more armor rating than them if they switch to Dark Ward. So in my eyes it isn't logical for a jugg to have less HP because of 1k armor ratings difference since they have better defensive CD's and Way better threat generating abilities.

[thorizdin]

They said in one of the recent Q&As that they wanted to fix this.

 

CaptainJammo - Can you clarify the role of the Accuracy stat? Right now, it seems lackluster and/or unnecessary for many classes, yet it appears on all of their end game gear.

 

Georg Zoeller (Principal Lead Combat Designer): Accuracy counters your target's ability to defend (dodge, deflect, etc.) against your attacks. You are correct about the accuracy budget on the current end game gear being too generous for most scenarios - unless you are a dedicated tank killer in PvP, you probably do not need as much as you get from Rakata gear at the moment and you should consider swapping out some mods to support your preferred playstyle.

 

For the upcoming tier of new gear, we have an improved distribution of stats for both PvP and PvE gear.

 

Source:

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-march-2nd-2012

[Kenegdo]

the enhancements on all rakata gear aint optimal but bioware wants you to get the enhancements that drop in raids and remod your gear.

 

and yes 14/27/0 is the spec you roll with in HM/NMM, should give you 23k+ hp in rakata gear.

 

I would just like to echo my agreement here. 14/27 build is more the build you should be aiming for in HM/NM ops.

 

and just fyi, I actually really like the 2 pieces of Rakata that have surge on them. With a 14/27 build my Force Screams and Saber Throws have around an 80-85% crit rate when im fully raid buffed. That means that even a small amount of surge rating (~120) will give me a pretty big dmg boost...and since dmg = threat this is a very good thing.

 

Secondly, if you really hate the mods on the rakata gear, just switch em out with ones you to like. Once most of the members in your guild get their set gear no one is going to complain if you take a few additional pieces for the mods (esp. if you are the MT).

 

Finally, crit crafted Exotech War Leader's gear is vastly superior gear for a tank than Rakata. Is it easy to make? Not at all. But Rakata is not the be-all-end-all some ppl are crying about.

[Hansuki]

Still doesn't explain why Assassins get way more endurance on their gear, We have 1k more armor rating than them if they switch to Dark Ward. So in my eyes it isn't logical for a jugg to have less HP because of 1k armor ratings difference since they have better defensive CD's and Way better threat generating abilities.

 

Are you kidding me about the better defensive CDs? As a Jugg you get the most, and the most beneficial mitigation skills in the game. The Sin gets more HP cause as a light armor wearing class it needs it. To complain about 1k is ridiculousness anyway since NiM bosses will hit you from 8k plus on average - very very few situations have left me with 1-2% health and I've said "damn I wish I had 1000 more hps"

 

I dont know how many nightmare ops you have done, but I've gotten my timed run titles tanking on my jugg in full rakata (every piece T3, even relics). We run 1 tank, two sorc heals - no problems with anything, aggro is fine when you know what you are doing, I never had to switch to lesser gear, no bosses could kill me, save the big bad buggy Soa. I really dont know what other Juggs are doing so grossly wrong that they feel they should complain for a buff.

 

Even the puzzle boss in karaggas with his 10 stacks of Armor pen, was no match for Jugg CDs. Our mitigation is THE BEST PERIOD.

 

 

My talent spec is 29/12/0 btw. I wouldn't recommend the deeper vengeance builds as a solution to threat mgmt problems - you need to play better to manage threat, that means stuns, that means jumping/pushing/interceding, that means making the best use of guard, etc. I'll bet most of the complaining jugs dont even intercede on a regular basis.

 

TL;DR I have full T3 raid gear and it does not need to be tuned whatsoever since I have been able to complete every boss on nightmare. Working on my rakata vindicators set now, ill let you know how tanking in that goes.

[Dirtysolutions]

Are you kidding me about the better defensive CDs? As a Jugg you get the most, and the most beneficial mitigation skills in the game. The Sin gets more HP cause as a light armor wearing class it needs it. To complain about 1k is ridiculousness anyway since NiM bosses will hit you from 8k plus on average - very very few situations have left me with 1-2% health and I've said "damn I wish I had 1000 more hps"

 

I dont know how many nightmare ops you have done, but I've gotten my timed run titles tanking on my jugg in full rakata (every piece T3, even relics). We run 1 tank, two sorc heals - no problems with anything, aggro is fine when you know what you are doing, I never had to switch to lesser gear, no bosses could kill me, save the big bad buggy Soa. I really dont know what other Juggs are doing so grossly wrong that they feel they should complain for a buff.

 

Even the puzzle boss in karaggas with his 10 stacks of Armor pen, was no match for Jugg CDs. Our mitigation is THE BEST PERIOD.

 

 

My talent spec is 29/12/0 btw. I wouldn't recommend the deeper vengeance builds as a solution to threat mgmt problems - you need to play better to manage threat, that means stuns, that means jumping/pushing/interceding, that means making the best use of guard, etc. I'll bet most of the complaining jugs dont even intercede on a regular basis.

 

TL;DR I have full T3 raid gear and it does not need to be tuned whatsoever since I have been able to complete every boss on nightmare. Working on my rakata vindicators set now, ill let you know how tanking in that goes.

 

Hehe add some screenshots and thats almost an "Execute thread" - The Reason Jugg needs some small buffs is because you have to be good to do all that. Its a lot easier to be "good" on Other Tank.Classes - Hence the whine (and hopefully some buffs to dine with that =)

 

The fact that Juggs have been shown and proven to be competative in dps, pvp and so forth, (Livestreams usually dont lie) has nothing to do with it. Its just harder.

 

p.s. I bet most of you guys have raided (with progress) in other mmo´s before? - Then you should know that you dont equip the item with highest itemlvl - You ALWAYS Equip with the item that give you most beneficial stats!! So the Chestpiece has to much +to hit on it, buhu, grab your S C R O T U M S and walk up to that vendor/pileolot and switcvh out that piece of s hit-mod to something thats more "you"

[theLast]

You guys are funny. Completely insane, but funny nonetheless. You want to attack my skill as a player. You want to tell Juggs to spec DPS in order to tank (that problem is for another thread). You want people to not only raid for the Rakata gear, but then swap out all the mods because the gear is poorly itemized.

 

First of all, I have no trouble with threat. That is not the point of my original post nor is it the cause of it. The problem is itemization. Nothing that has been said so far has countered that fact. If anything, you all have confirmed my original post by telling me that I should mod the gear (even though no other class is required to do this to make their gear worthwhile).

 

Even if they want us to mod the gear with mods that drop in the operations, it is still poorly itemized. First, the mods in the raids drop so rarely that it would take a ridiculous amount of time for a Juggernaut to be on par with what an Assassin can achieve stat-wise with very little effort. Secondly, even if that was feasible, it is still a poor itemization model. You can make people mod their gear with raid drops without making the raid gear itself worthless. Just make Rakata useful to it's intended purpose and then make the mods slightly better. The min/max people will still mod their gear and those who don't get every single mod drop in their favor will still be able to tank in the Rakata gear that is meant for tanking.

 

Here's an idea. Discuss the real problem here, instead of telling people to switch to a dps spec in order to tank, instead of telling people to go out and get mods to make the rakata gear halfway decent for the intended role it has (War leader is meant for tanking, not DPS - we have vindicators for that), instead of telling people that they suck at playing the game (since you don't even know how to read I feel the need to say I doubt your judgment).

 

As I said in my initial post, I'm not going to get into the Assassin defensive skill imbalance in this thread as it deserves its own thread. Suffice to say, if you think Assassins don't have better defensive cooldowns than a Juggernaut for tanking then you have no clue what a tanking spec Assassin has in their arsenal.

Edited March 13, 2012 by theLast