PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Viscidslime]

Cookie cutter builds.... So lets say you play a BH, and you have a choice between 2 talents that improve your unload ability, one slows the target for X% for Y seconds, and theres another talent that improves the damage it does by Z%, which one would you pick? (keep in mind this is for a raiding spec) cookie cutter is just a bad name for COMMON SENSE.

 

Your argument is valid, however.. Ignorance is bliss.

 

Take an hour and research former MMORPGS after the "mystery and fantasy", turned into "who is better than who, and why?".

 

These are games, k? fantasy games-- not real life, where it matters and regular folks such as those with opposing opinions, can keep it moving..

 

No, once the game is ruined for us, we must move on..

 

When will we learn?

 

We can enjoy the breast milk just a litttle while longer, if we arent told it comes from a lactating Male Gorilla, yes? ..hope you understand the metaphor

[Sytharin]

Your argument is valid, however.. Ignorance is bliss.

 

Take an hour and research former MMORPGS after the "mystery and fantasy", turned into "who is better than who, and why?".

 

These are games, k? fantasy games-- not real life, where it matters and regular folks such as those with opposing opinions, can keep it moving..

 

No, once the game is ruined for us, we must move on..

 

When will we learn?

 

We can enjoy the breast milk just a litttle while longer, if we arent told it comes from a lactating Male Gorilla, yes? ..hope you understand the metaphor

 

There are those in this world that enjoy playing games for the story, those again that enjoy the community, the same for exploration, questing, hoarding, etc.

 

And there are also those that enjoy having the snot beaten out of them until they get an encounter perfect. The professional gaming community.

 

A successful, and yes, I will namedrop World of Warcraft here, game must appeal to ALL of these walks of life. Anything short of that is business model suicide.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Sytharin

[Fiddyy]

Letting you people have a voice who just say "We don't want to be made fun of," is like letting Rex Grossman have a voice in changes for the NFL.

[Wrrath]

Just reading some of these posts makes my head spin. The logic that we do not need combat logs simply because the first tier of content is so easy that a monkey could down it is just mind boggling. I have gone into normal modes and even some of the hard modes with 7 people and been able to down this content when we have been in greens. This content is not hard and Bioware has specifically stated that it is going to get harder from here on out. I would rather know in the future if we cannot down a boss due to hitting enrage who is holding us back and not pulling their weight.

 

The argument that we want to hide our dps or hps because we might not be pulling our weight is the worst argument in the entire world. As someone said earlier it is like if I went into a job and didn't want my supervisor to watch me well I sat in the back doing nothing well still getting paid. The same logic applies to someone who is getting carried through the content doing awful dps and getting fed loot just because we cannot see what they are doing. Hiding combat logs simply because you don't have the desire to take 10 minutes out of your day to read a couple posts on how to play at least a little better is just inexcusable. If you don't want to take the time to learn how to play the game then that is your problem.

 

If the only real argument to get rid of a useful system that can feed the people who actually care information they would like to know is simply I don't want to be embarrassed or because I don't want to deal with elitest jerks then I do feel sorry for all of you. If you don't want to deal with the combat logs then find a group of people who think like you and play with them instead of refusing to accept what is a very helpful tool to people who would actually like to see what happened on any given pull without having to question everyone in the raid.

 

And before someone says well we don't want cookie cutter builds or we want to do our own thing because we like it better then thats fine. I have absolutely no problem with someone who likes a certain spec even though it isn't what is considered "the best" as long as they can pull their weight. If we are still downing content and if we are still progressing through it then I could care less what you are doing or how you are specced. My point is I don't want to be carrying someone through a raid or wiping because lets say they are doing 500 dps on a boss where everyone else in the raid is doing 2k to 2.5k. If they are all in the same type of gear explain to me how it is fair to the people actually doing their fair share to lose gear or time to someone who cannot even be challenged to do half of their dps.

[Snoodmaster]

Well said and nice story.

 

All of the game can be played and defeated even without what they are adding. There is no right and just answer. The whole topic is offsetting desires. Some want privacy. Some want the numbers to remain behind the curtain and concentrate on the stage and still others want their aid to make and easy enough game easier. I think BioWare got it right.

 

NOBODY WHO WANTS COMBAT LOGS WANTS THEM BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE THE GAME EASIER.

 

Said in bold so that you can stop using that argument. I'll repeat it again and explain it so that you can understand why it's true. Nobody here in this entire thread has said that the game is too hard or that combat logs will make it easier. Nor is there any evidence to support that, anywhere. What we want is knowledge. We want science and facts and math to support an entirely math-based game. We want empirical data to make solid theories and experiments on. That has nothing to do with making things easier, and everything to do with improving and actually becoming better, more knowledgeable players.

 

I get that you want things hidden so that you can continue to believe in the "mystery of the universe." I personally, and I suspect others here, find that belief incredibly naive and uninformed, but hey, to each his own. What I do not understand is why you cannot just ignore the meters if they are in the game.

 

Basically what it comes down to is this. With logs in the game, people like me will have our empirical data and people like you can ignore it as you see fit. Win/win. Without logs, we can't get data. If you are worried about someone with a different philosophy not allowing you to raid with them, then go make your own raid, with people who feel the same way you do.

[Snakke]

Combat logs from what I have seen make it to the point everyone starts copyin that log whether it fits your style of play or not.

 

Learning how to play your class based on your playstyle is best. You don't need to copy someone else's stats. You should learn your own way of doing it. No two people play the same and copying someone's else way most of the time will not work for you.

 

I don't play like someone else, I play the way it works for me. I know my own weaknesses and strenghts, someone else has different ones . It would be wrong for me to copy someone's elses style just because it works for them.

 

That's the problem with combat logs most people will start copying someone's else just becasue it works for them instead of tryin to learn their own class.

 

How are you going to copy their play style with combat logs? It is impossible to tell exactly what someone is doing with just combat logs alone. You can get a good general idea from looking at the logs but in no way will you be able to copy exactly what they do unless you ask. Even if you then ask you are going to have to rely on them explaining it to you and then you are going to have to be able to comprehend what they just told you. Ontop of that, you will then have to apply theory to practice.

 

The only thing these combat logs will show you in a raid setting is who is pulling their weight and who isn't. If you have your own spec, and own way of playing, and you are still able to keep up with other people that's fine. But how is it fair to the rest of the raid if you are being carried through everything? Its not fair at all, and combat logs are just there to analyze what happened over the course of the boss fight.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Snakke

[ScarletBlaze]

Letting you people have a voice who just say "We don't want to be made fun of," is like letting Rex Grossman have a voice in changes for the NFL.

 

Last I checked everyone is allowed a voice to speak for something they don't like. What bioware does is their decision.

[Retzilla]

Your argument is valid, however.. Ignorance is bliss.

 

Take an hour and research former MMORPGS after the "mystery and fantasy", turned into "who is better than who, and why?".

 

These are games, k? fantasy games-- not real life, where it matters and regular folks such as those with opposing opinions, can keep it moving..

 

No, once the game is ruined for us, we must move on..

 

When will we learn?

 

We can enjoy the breast milk just a litttle while longer, if we arent told it comes from a lactating Male Gorilla, yes? ..hope you understand the metaphor

 

thats all find and dandy if you want to RP, hang around those kinds of people, you can still enjoy the RP, yet still know how to play the game, I played through KOTR 1&2 and I enjoy this set of Star Wars lore, with that being said I'm also a huge fan of the warcraft lore but I also like to be able to kill nightmare mode encounters before the rest of the country, with that being said combat logs are a vital tool in order to do this. Also if I'm doing a pug and it isnt going anywhere, combat logs tell me whos doing what wrong as far as low dps, dieing, or wiping the raid, I refer you back to a quote from a past post of mine

 

fullscale combat logs gives us hardcore raiders the one tool we need to beat a nightmare mode encounter before nerfs, and being crippled by you casuals is really REALLY silly, and you act like its the end of the world if we make a little joke about you not being good at a video game. this illegitimate fear of damage meters is nonsense. its not going to play the game for you, the damage meters reflect on how you play the game and is a needed tool to figure out the hard math to get everything you can

 

[Viscidslime]

There are those in this world that enjoy playing games for the story, those again that enjoy the community, the same for exploration, questing, hoarding, etc.

 

And there are also those that enjoy having the snot beaten out of them until they get an encounter perfect. The professional gaming community.

 

A successful, and yes, I will namedrop World of Warcraft here, game must appeal to ALL of these walks of life. Anything short of that is business model suicide.

 

I think the more important factor is simply this.. (Forgive me If I offend)

 

You that want to measure yourselves by raw facts, and gain glory through an digressing sense of accomplishment, are the minority.

 

We, that are the massses, the average folks passing the time after work, with more important things to worry about, such as paying bills, etc., keep these games an option for you.

 

So, call me arrogant, I am.. but I am also a realist.

 

The truth is, we are tired of getting on a game, to pass the time; bank rolling it-- being forced to put up with nonsense that matters for high school lads and pre-grad college folk (+u other misfits )

 

P.S. Im 31, so I am in the middle of the genres, and can relate to both opinions.. However, I am a realist.

 

I mean on disrespect to anyway, please do not be upset over my "bold" opinion.

[Viscidslime]

thats all find and dandy if you want to RP, hang around those kinds of people, you can still enjoy the RP, yet still know how to play the game, I played through KOTR 1&2 and I enjoy this set of Star Wars lore, with that being said I'm also a huge fan of the warcraft lore but I also like to be able to kill nightmare mode encounters before the rest of the country, with that being said combat logs are a vital tool in order to do this. Also if I'm doing a pug and it isnt going anywhere, combat logs tell me whos doing what wrong as far as low dps, dieing, or wiping the raid, I refer you back to a quote from a past post of mine

 

Can I point out a quick flaw, in your thinking? With all do respect, every one knows a pug is a pug..

 

Im done, my head hurts now.

[JediElf]

I think the more important factor is simply this.. (Forgive me If I offend)

 

You that want to measure yourselves by raw facts, and gain glory through an digressing sense of accomplishment, are the minority.

 

We, that are the massses, the average folks passing the time after work, with more important things to worry about, such as paying bills, etc., keep these games an option for you.

 

So, call me arrogant, I am.. but I am also a realist.

 

The truth is, we are tired of getting on a game, to pass the time; bank rolling it-- being forced to put up with nonsense that matters for high school lads and pre-grad college folk (+u other misfits )

 

P.S. Im 31, so I am in the middle of the genres, and can relate to both opinions.. However, I am a realist.

 

I mean on disrespect to anyway, please do not be upset over my "bold" opinion.

 

I'm in my mid 30's, and I think you hit the nail, right on the head.

[Fiddyy]

Last I checked everyone is allowed a voice to speak for something they don't like. What bioware does is their decision.

 

Sure. They can say what they think, however when it comes to changing the game, they should have no bearing.

[ScarletBlaze]

Sure. They can say what they think, however when it comes to changing the game, they should have no bearing.

 

Again that's not your choice. Bioware will take everyone views into consideration and do what they think is best for the whole of the community.

 

Whether we like their decision or not is besides the point. They do what they think is right. Do I always agree with their decision, no there been some I have disagreed with but they are the ones that make the decisions whether I agree or not.

 

They have to take everyone''s views into consideration not just a select few.

[Sugerbabe]

Dont need combat log.

 

its a game..just enjoy it !

[Lord_Scythe]

Whatever happened to events that forced you to think than just tank and spank and do x amount of damage before mob goes bat crap crazy and beats everyone to death?

 

EQ had some very challenging raids that required more than just pure DPS. There were raids that felt more like games. Events like Simon says or one where you had to sing along when a mob gave you a tell. 8/16 man coordination is simple compared to 60 man raids.

 

I really don't care about combat logs per say and if they are in game I will use them for my personal use. I am against in game tools that automate the game. Combat logs for parsing after the fact are not a bad thing. Lets face it any real raid group would figure out how to parse a log in real time anyways. No reason to have in game parsers.

 

What is a bad thing is when those tools are abused by a small minority of players. Hell it is already happening with Flashpoints and the space bar. I have already seen the don't group with so and so he refuses to use the space bar messages on fleet.

 

Lets face it elitism is going to happen.

 

I do agree like minded people should be playing together. Though lets face it pug operations are gonna suck. Players doing pug operations would be best off joining casual raid guilds.

 

I do like the idea of opt in/out logs. That way people know up front what type of players they are playing with.

[Sytharin]

I think the more important factor is simply this.. (Forgive me If I offend)

 

You that want to measure yourselves by raw facts, and gain glory through an digressing sense of accomplishment, are the minority.

 

We, that are the massses, the average folks passing the time after work, with more important things to worry about, such as paying bills, etc., keep these games an option for you.

 

So, call me arrogant, I am.. but I am also a realist.

 

The truth is, we are tired of getting on a game, to pass the time; bank rolling it-- being forced to put up with nonsense that matters for high school lads and pre-grad college folk (+u other misfits )

 

P.S. Im 31, so I am in the middle of the genres, and can relate to both opinions.. However, I am a realist.

 

I mean on disrespect to anyway, please do not be upset over my "bold" opinion.

 

No offense taken. We're debating on the internet .

 

I am in the same boat as you, I have not logged in for so long, Kaliyo has missed me twice. I still have an active subscription, because I love the potential for this game, and wish to support it.

 

The trouble here, however, is this: With ease comes boredom. The first to leave are always the hardcores, and then the competitive, and finally the gamers, leaving the last scraps of the game to the casuals and chat room enthusiasts, at which point you have a dead game. Games must evolve. You may make up the ground forces, consumer-wise, but the hardcores are the spearhead. You cannot have one without the other.

 

Granted, and fully understood, there are plenty of more pressing concerns to be addressed first, animation delay, move latency, BUGs, etc that actually impair gameplay, which condemn all levels of play to death, but Bioware has already implemented "hardmodes." They understand they must appeal to the most possible consumer base. To do this, they will need the tools, or at least support the tools, used by all of the player base. Yes, that does include meters.

 

Again, no offense taken, and your boredom is noted and empathized.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Sytharin

[ScarletBlaze]

Reading through alot of these posts, I dont think the people advocating "no logs" can even read a log.

 

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rbp758rm74wth4aa/

 

please go through this and tell me how it makes the game easier

 

"edit" if you're going to try please bring up certain instances and times in what encounters the logs made the game easier, or how the breakdown in numbers will make you better at not standing in fire or press your rotation better.

 

Actually if you read these notes it was never stated no logs, just that the logs are personal and private only viewable by you and those you may choose to share them with.

 

Q: Threat meters, dps meters – are they coming? what is bioware’s stance?

 

A: we want reliance on in-game visual cues but that is not we say we won’t give you dps and threat meters. We will have them in but just not in 1.2.

 

We you to have control over what other see about your character – we went for the middle ground

 

– in 1.2 you will be able to use a simple input in the chat system to see what defeated you. we also have a very detailed combat log you can write to your disk – someone enterprising can use it for their guild to see their performance but it will be out of game (3rd party).

 

http://dulfy.net/2012/03/05/swtor-guild-summitlive-blogging/

Edited March 12, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Viscidslime]

i really despise the fact you missed the biggest point in my post, and brought up something that wasn't very relevant in my response, you must be a lawyer

 

Youre right, I guess I did.. sorry, I'll start over.

 

 

I agree with you, wanting to exceed; feeling a sense of accomplishment in what you enjoy, I am with you 100%..

 

Simply put, however.. If we love our hobby, then we need to protect it, from itself.. because we are selfish and want to keep our hobby, right?

 

Now, I am against thinking for other people, but some times.. it has to happen, because we all have selfish needs.

[Matte_Black]

NOBODY WHO WANTS COMBAT LOGS WANTS THEM BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE THE GAME EASIER.

 

Combat logs make completion of content and challenges easier to accomplish. They allow players to more quickly perfect builds and strategies thereby outstripping the content of it's challenge faster. Why put a tool in the game to hasten the race to complain about being bored.

 

I don't specifically think those who want more developed, public logs want the game to be easier. I'd say it more a matter of wanting to put accomplishments under there belts faster and have the effort to improve their game come easy to them. There are also a few people without the skills to deconstruct the game the hard way who want to be elite and don't know how without it being done for them.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Andryah]

Anything short of that is business model suicide.

 

Exaggeration, for effect, I gather.

 

Bioware disagrees with you. This is their game. What exactly are you going to do about it??????

[Retzilla]

Combat logs make completion of content and challenges easier to accomplish. They allow players to more quickly perfect builds and strategies thereby outstripping the content of it's challenge faster. Why put a tool in the game to hasten the race to complain about being bored.

 

I don't specifically think those who want more developed, public logs want the game to be easier. I'd say it more a matter of wanting to put accomplishments under there belts faster and have the effort to improve their game come easy to them. There are also a few people without the skills to deconstruct the game the hard way who want to be elite and don't know how without it being done for them.

 

 

you, who know so much about combat logs and what they do, i refer to you my last post

 

 

Reading through alot of these posts, I dont think the people advocating "no logs" can even read a log.

 

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rbp758rm74wth4aa/

 

please go through this and tell me how it makes the game easier

 

"edit" if you're going to try please bring up certain instances and times in what encounters the logs made the game easier, or how the breakdown in numbers will make you better at not standing in fire or press your rotation better.

[flobdeth]

Yes

 

I really want the addition of combat logs, be they personal logs or general.

 

Used them very successfully for years in EQ2 to better my characters and they became essential to beating a lot of the raid encounters as well as gauging a recruits ability and my own. Used properly instead of an Epeen meter they are a really useful tool, sure you'll get the odd idiot with 1/2 a brain calling you out if you slack, I know for me, I want to play to the best of my ability and try out differant things to enable that, logs are the best way to do so!

[ProfessorWalsh]

you, who know so much about combat logs and what they do, i refer to you my last post

 

Ret simply because combat logs of the like you describe do make it easier.

 

You don't need to pay attention to the other players during the raid, the log will do that for you. You don't need to pay attention to how hard the boss is hitting you or what abilities he is doing, the log will do that for you. You don't need to guestimate how much damage you did in the course of the fight based on your own delve information, the log will not guestimate, it will straight up tell you the exact amount of damage.

 

They make it easier for you. Period.

[Matte_Black]

you, who know so much about combat logs and what they do, i refer to you my last post

 

I am not going to go through all the info but, it's some basic line graphs and breakdowns of damage done, taken and healed sorted by targets and spell for a 5 hour play session. Looks like DPS topped out around 1.2 million.

[Fiddyy]

I am not going to go through all the info but, it's some basic line graphs and breakdowns of damage done, taken and healed sorted by targets and spell for a 5 hour play session. Looks like DPS topped out around 1.2 million.

 

Explain how that made the game easier. Or why having it in game would make the game easier.