Burn effects

[neeman]

Linear.

 

But! And this is a big but. If you go from 30% to 60% say. Then yes you increase your damage by 30% of base. But 300 increased damage is less than 30% of 1300...

 

That the proportion of the extra crit damage done from 30-60% relative to the total damage done is less than it would be from 1-30% is clear. That's just how a non-compounding multiplier functions. If this is the point, it's not an extremely important one.

 

Hizoka appears to be however conflating nearing-100% in crit with being at 100% in crit, such that adding more crit is to him obviously useless. Such conflation does not actually help at all in determining whether a +6% crit buff makes for the best distribution of our talent points or not.

 

From a short-term gambler's perspective, both 30% and 36% look very much like 1/3 as opposed to 30/100 and 36/100. And, to be sure, as our toons might live and die often before we put in 100 attacks, and PvP encounters are often limited to what, say, 20 GCD sequences, the profit of +6% might not be apparent. Appearances aside, though, it's 30/100 and 36/100.

Edited February 28, 2012 by neeman

[Hizoka]

When it comes to a Watchman build, you only need 31 points in the tree. That leaves 10 points over. Justify not throwing 3 out of those 10 into Insight. What are the better options for end game DPS assuming you're at 108% without Steadfast?

 

if you have 108% without stead fast you are gearing wrong. you are using too many accuracy enhancements. why waste gear on accuracy when you can talent for it then swap enhancements for power enhancements which are a greater gain to DPS then 6% crit.

 

 

the gear is modable for a reason. Power is far and away the best stat as far as a damage per point ratio after 25% base crit as a watchmen sentinel, run more flashpoints or what ever you need tot o get rid of the accuracy mods and get power surge mods even if they are 56 instead of 58 mods because the damage increase is higher.

[andrew_b_gross]

When it comes to a Watchman build, you only need 31 points in the tree. That leaves 10 points over. Justify not throwing 3 out of those 10 into Insight. What are the better options for end game DPS assuming you're at 108% without Steadfast?

 

I don't think it's so obviously clear one way or the other so as to make someone an idiot for going with or without Insight.

 

My 10 non-Watchman points are :

 

1 Jedi Crusader

3 Dual Wield

2 Defensive Forms

2 Defensive Roll

2 Focused Leap

 

I doubt if an accurate log parser would show this is the optimal build for putting out Ops DPS given "perfect" play, but (1) I doubt if it's so much lower than optimal that it will ever cause our Op to wipe, and (2) I think this build is pretty forgiving of minor mistakes, which is important to me since I'm not in an uber guild and I'm not hardcore-- we're clearing HM Ops but haven't even tried Nightmare yet.

 

Defensive Roll I like a lot, you can't DPS when you're dead and there is a ton of splash/AoE damage in this game. With perfect play it's not necessary, but I think it easily justifies 2 skill points given my play level and the competence level of my guild.

 

1 point in Jedi Crusader I also like, I have played around with 0/1/2 in it and think one works out well. In fights where I'm taking AoE, I pop rebuke and get some nice bonus focus. However, if I had to cut a point somewhere to move to Insight, this would be the one.

 

Focused Leap is probably the most controversial. I like it for two reasons: (1) it helps me cover for mistakes-- my rotation can be a little more sloppy when I start with one extra focus, and if I find myself focus starved, it's nice to be able to get an extra one with Leap; and (2) it's really nice when going solo, when I'm leaping from one mob to the next continuously-- I realize this isn't a consideration in endgame builds, but given that I still do spend a fair amount of time solo in order to pay repair bills and such, I like the convenience. If I had to come up with another 2 points for Insight, they'd come out of here, but I think I'd miss them almost every day, so why suffer through the aggravation given that we're clearing the content we're on anyway?

[PantsOn]

I don't think it's so obviously clear one way or the other so as to make someone an idiot for going with or without Insight.

 

My 10 non-Watchman points are :

 

1 Jedi Crusader

3 Dual Wield

2 Defensive Forms

2 Defensive Roll

2 Focused Leap

 

I doubt if an accurate log parser would show this is the optimal build for putting out Ops DPS given "perfect" play, but (1) I doubt if it's so much lower than optimal that it will ever cause our Op to wipe, and (2) I think this build is pretty forgiving of minor mistakes, which is important to me since I'm not in an uber guild and I'm not hardcore-- we're clearing HM Ops but haven't even tried Nightmare yet.

 

Defensive Roll I like a lot, you can't DPS when you're dead and there is a ton of splash/AoE damage in this game. With perfect play it's not necessary, but I think it easily justifies 2 skill points given my play level and the competence level of my guild.

 

1 point in Jedi Crusader I also like, I have played around with 0/1/2 in it and think one works out well. In fights where I'm taking AoE, I pop rebuke and get some nice bonus focus. However, if I had to cut a point somewhere to move to Insight, this would be the one.

 

Focused Leap is probably the most controversial. I like it for two reasons: (1) it helps me cover for mistakes-- my rotation can be a little more sloppy when I start with one extra focus, and if I find myself focus starved, it's nice to be able to get an extra one with Leap; and (2) it's really nice when going solo, when I'm leaping from one mob to the next continuously-- I realize this isn't a consideration in endgame builds, but given that I still do spend a fair amount of time solo in order to pay repair bills and such, I like the convenience. If I had to come up with another 2 points for Insight, they'd come out of here, but I think I'd miss them almost every day, so why suffer through the aggravation given that we're clearing the content we're on anyway?

 

 

These are all good points. However, when a guy claims he know what he's talking about and then shows you his end game DPS trees with points in Watchguard, he can safely be called an idiot. That's all I was saying.

Edited February 28, 2012 by PantsOn

[Ovarf]

These are all good points. However, when a guy claims he know what he's talking about and then shows you his end game DPS trees with points in Insight, he can safely be called an idiot. That's all I was saying.

 

 

so your now claiming that what its not worth it when 2 post ago you where claiming that it was ?

[PantsOn]

so your now claiming that what its not worth it when 2 post ago you where claiming that it was ?

 

It is absolutely not worth it for end game. I never claimed it was.

Edited February 28, 2012 by PantsOn

[OldxLady]

Sigh... People have so little clue about DR on the things in game...

 

First of, the crit chance on your stat is the one that has diminishing returns, crit/surge and what not else that you get from talent tree does not have DR. IF it had you would see abilities that have 100% chance to crit (130% with stat) having DR and droping it down to what 60-70%?

 

So yes, spec into crit/sruge in talents are good for anything. Do you have 25% crit chance from stats? Its still good to get insight as it adds base 6% crit chance to crit on DoT's.

Stack this with the 15% chance for the stance buff and boom, you are up to 46% chance to crit on DoT's.

 

So to be hoenst the best thing would be to cap base crit at 29% so with everything stacked you have 50% chance to crit with you DoT's.

I am sorry to say, but I mean who ever say that 50% chance to crit and do 100% (70% Surge + 30% Surge Talant) more damage AND have a 50% chance to heal yourself for 2% of your hp (Talant) is just beeing stupid.

Edited February 28, 2012 by OldxLady

[PantsOn]

Sigh... People have so little clue about DR on the things in game...

 

First of, the crit chance on your stat is the one that has diminishing returns, crit/surge and what not else that you get from talent tree does not have DR. IF it had you would see abilities that have 100% chance to crit (130% with stat) having DR and droping it down to what 60-70%?

 

So yes, spec into crit/sruge in talents are good for anything. Do you have 25% crit chance from stats? Its still good to get insight as it adds base 6% crit chance to crit on DoT's.

Stack this with the 15% chance for the stance buff and boom, you are up to 46% chance to crit on DoT's.

 

So to be hoenst the best thing would be to cap base crit at 29% so with everything stacked you have 50% chance to crit with you DoT's.

I am sorry to say, but I mean who ever say that 50% chance to crit and do 100% (70% Surge + 30% Surge Talant) more damage AND have a 50% chance to heal yourself for 2% of your hp (Talant) is just beeing stupid.

 

 

It's not a DR issue. You have to do a little bit of math, but even hard crit% loses it's relative value as you approach 100%.

[Inarai]

It's not a DR issue. You have to do a little bit of math, but even hard crit% loses it's relative value as you approach 100%.

 

And based on that view, the skill basically frees up secondary stat budget - which has merit. Can you really say with confidence that there is nothing you can spend that on that exceeds whatever else you might spend spare skill points on?

 

If I'm putting together a PvP/OT Combat build, I'd probably be more likely to grab either Inflammation or Master Focus (having already gotten up to Merciless Zeal in Watchman for the healing), sure (And even then, it would have it's advantages in terms of being able to grab a bit more power/surge or even defense). If I'm going more for a straight up glass cannon kill all things PvE build, though, I pop no more than 3 points into Watchman, leaving a good 7 points to put into Focus - and Insight's more attractive for that build than stagger.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Inarai

[PantsOn]

And based on that view, the skill basically frees up secondary stat budget - which has merit.

 

For sure. But then it's a question (at least it is for me now) of whether you take Insight for the hard crit% or whether you take Steadfast for the hard acc%. Either way, you're freeing up secondary stat budget.

[Inarai]

For sure. But then it's a question (at least it is for me now) of whether you take Insight for the hard crit% or whether you take Steadfast for the hard acc%. Either way, you're freeing up secondary stat budget.

 

The real question there is actually between 2% Acc from Steadfast, or 15% crit on Slash from Swift Slash. And Zen Slash having an effective focus cost of 1 with that crit boost is pretty nice - and again, lowers crit's priority versus other stats.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Inarai

[Ovarf]

It is absolutely not worth it for end game. I never claimed it was.

 

then where would you put the 3 points for end game that would be better in a 31 point watchman build ? seems to me the 6 points in crit you get is freeing up slots in gear that you can now put power in which seems like a win win

Edited February 28, 2012 by Ovarf

[PantsOn]

then where would you put the 3 points for end game that would be better in a 31 point watchman build ? seems to me the 6 points in crit you get is freeing up slots in gear that you can now put power in which seems like a win win

 

Wait, I'm confused. I'm sorry, I'm PRO Insight for end game PvE as opposed to Watchguard. Sorry for the HEPR DERP.

 

I fixed that post you quoted me on. It was supposed to say Watchguard.

Edited February 28, 2012 by PantsOn

[Inarai]

then where would you put the 3 points for end game that would be better in a 31 point watchman build ? seems to me the 6 points in crit you get is freeing up slots in gear that you can now put power in which seems like a win win

 

PvP build? Probably pop the spare 10 into Dual Wield 3, Def Forms 1, Crusader 1, and from there it's between Temperance, Focused Leap, Defensive Roll, and Stagger - maybe Master Focus, not sure how useful MS/Stasis is for Watchman.

 

PvE? Can't really see anything.

[Inarai]

Wait, I'm confused. I'm sorry, I'm PRO Insight for end game PvE as opposed to Watchguard. Sorry for the HEPR DERP.

 

I fixed that post you quoted me on. It was supposed to say Watchguard.

 

Surprising - would think the faster interrupt would be attractive, since it offers a good deal of utility to the team. Plus, even without it working on Ops bosses faster Pacify seems tempting - great way to help the tank and healer out.

[PantsOn]

Surprising - would think the faster interrupt would be attractive, since it offers a good deal of utility to the team. Plus, even without it working on Ops bosses faster Pacify seems tempting - great way to help the tank and healer out.

 

You're confusing me. Are you talking about Ops?

[Inarai]

You're confusing me. Are you talking about Ops?

 

Endgame PvE means Operations and HM Flashpoints. Pacify, and thus Watchguard, only gets more useful if we're not talking about Operations.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Inarai

[PantsOn]

Endgame PvP means Operations and HM Flashpoints. Pacify, and thus Watchguard, only gets more useful if we're not talking about Operations.

 

I'm sure that was a typo and meant to say PvE. But yeah, sorry, when I talk about end game, I talk about Ops (where neither Pacify nor Force Kick are useful). Do bosses not have Boss Immunity in HM FPs?

[Inarai]

I'm sure that was a typo and meant to say PvE. But yeah, sorry, when I talk about end game, I talk about Ops (where neither Pacify nor Force Kick are useful). Do bosses not have Boss Immunity in HM FPs?

 

... Whoops. Fixing that.

 

The Patch note on Pacify, however, specifically related to Operations - not bosses in general. Pretty sure they have different immunities - but I've yet to check.

[andrew_b_gross]

You're confusing me. Are you talking about Ops?

 

I'm confused too.

 

For HM FPs, it doesn't matter what your build is. You could probably just not assign any skill points at all and still clear them, it's silly to even spend these 2 sentences talking about them.

 

For Ops, the difference between 8 second Force Kick and 6 second Force Kick is Zero. It has Zero value to lower it from 8 to 6. You will clear trash fine either way. There are a couple of bosses that are not immune (e.g. Sorno), but in those cases, you have way more than 8 seconds in between when you need to kick, PLUS you have 3 other people on the same boss, so you're not the only one interrupting.

 

I cannot see ANY justification for taking Watchguard for endgame PVE.

 

(Using my imagination and squinting my eyes and suspending disbelief, I guess maybe for the first week after you hit 50 you might keep it for HM FPs, but it's honestly not worth the bother of changing builds after the week is up, you might as well just start with your final build.)

 

Maybe OP is talking about something else and there's a communication gap of some sort? Not sure what he could be referring to.

[Aaramis]

Man, so much hostility in this thread.

 

I think Hizoka's initial point has merit - that spending 3 points for +6% crit isn't the best deal, especially when it only applies to burns/force attacks and not your melee. And especially considering that at Juyo stack 5, we should be sitting at a good crit chance already (15% from Juyo Mastery, + about ~20-30% from gear = 35-45% crit chance. 40-50% if smuggler buffed).

Would there be a huge difference in dps between, say, 40-50%, and 46-56%? I doubt it. Maybe a very marginal difference, but that's it.

 

 

So it comes down to personal preference.

I think a lot of Watchmen are going to spend 31 in Watchman, and probably 7 in Combat (defensive forms + dual-wield mastery + defensive roll). Which leaves you 3 points to play with.

Take your pick between Insight, Steadfast, or Focused Leap + 1 extra point elsewhere.

 

/shrug

 

If you're a damn good Sentinel player, I don't think those last few points are going to make or break your build or kill rate.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Aaramis