Cyrdan Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Back on topic a bit... I would like to see a 50 well gear op healer post the HP, energy, and total estimated time to complete for the two combos: 1. kolto injection / surgical probe 2. kolto injection / kolto infusion My estimate/feel a while back when I was healing was that combo 1 was higher HPS and more power efficient. Wonder what others can chip in on this data? Also, effectively I think operative/scoundrel healer is the most squishy healer in the game as well. Merc/commando --> HVY armor and knockback, big instant heal... sage/sorc --> huge bubble on shorter effective CD and better escape CC (mez, stun, AoE knockback, speed). Regarding the whole "we are a HoT based class" I see where you are coming from but I disagree. WoW druid is a HoT based healing class, LOTRO RK is a HoT based healing class. I think if we were able to parse out our healing output, only about 25% of our total max single target output comes from a two stack of KP. That is not really that much for the pain in the rear that is to keep up KP stacks on party/raid members. With regards to diagnostic scan... I hear what one or two people chimed in with that it does something and it should be used. True.... there are niche uses for it... it is filler by default when you have nothing to do. But with an investment of 4 skill tree points it is still a 'marginal at best' filler skill and still not nearly as good as merc rapid shots (which merc just gets to have as awesome by default, no skill points required). DS requires almost 2 GCD's to do 800ish healing while standing still. Merc's can move and fire two rapid shots, do 2000+ healing and discharge a lot of heat over that time. I think when looking at DS you gotta think about how it fits into a rotation, even if is not used that way. If you follow up a DS with a injection then that is say 2600-3000 healing over about 4.5 seconds (sort pulling numbers together) for about 20-22 energy. In the same 4.5s a merc can fire three rapid shots to do the same or more(?) healing for no heat while moving (op had to stay still the whole time, yes?) with no possibility of being interrupted. So when compared to merc rapid shots, DS really sucks even with 4 skill points spent (which is a lot imo). Now rapid shots, as I understand really is an important part of the merc healing rotation so this is not a apples to apples comparison but I still think this illustrates the short falling in the design of diagnostic scan. Regarding the "well I raid heal with a sorc/merc and we do just fine"... that is great but not at all an indicator of Op healing viability. I would tend to agree with the comments that the sorc/merc carried some of your weight but without data it is impossible to say. I could as easily say that in any PvP match that I can remember, the sage/sorc and commando/mercs out-heal the ops by a fair amount most all of the time and that's the only place where we can actually get numbers at the moment. But there are way too many variables in PvP fights to use PvP healing numbers as 'conclusive data'. Also, just the results of guild conversation and conversation with other PUG members (talking with folks who have more than one 50 healer class: merc/op, sorc/op, merc/sorc/op). Everyone says their sorc or merc is better at healing than their op and their op healing build has been effectively moth-balled for the interim. I'm feeling certain that positive things are on the way for op healing and I am looking forward to returning to healing in the near future. But i think it helpful for threads like this, if the devs read them, to help 'define the issues to be solved' of the class. Things like: (1) burning TA by using a skill just to keep power regen at a viable level -- an operative wide issue imo.. it is mechanically repetitive, boring/frustrating, and carpal tunnel inducing... really needs to be fixed (2) little or no synergy between skills relative to other healing specs, (3) the injection/SP combo being better in HPS and energy use than injection/infusion combo making infusion a "Why use?" skill (not verified but i think this is the case), (4) 'meh' utility of nanotech which is our CAPSTONE skill relative to other healing spec CAPSTONE skills (change coming which will be appreciated!) and (5) 'lol' diagnostic scan default capability, 4 skill points later... still 'lol' awful (i pine for rapid shots). Devs, hope you are reading (unlikely). Great game... please help op/scoundrel healing. Edited February 19, 2012 by Cyrdan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavenlyBluE Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Youre just guessing here about what/who his party member was. Obviously? The point being, he shouldn't have been having trouble healing the tank. It wasn't his fault. So how is our class being bugged a positive thing? It isn't? Are you a moron? Good thing it was fixed. So we put 4 talent points into a spell that heals for very little, over a very long time and we have to channel it. Seems like they didnt think it through tbh since you spend alot of points on it and almost never use this ability. Pretty much everyone that I've seen say operative healing is bad also says they rarely/never use diagnostic scan. That's the root of your problem right there. Static Barrier + Innervate Resurgence + Innervate 2 global cooldowns, instant healing, not tied to a secondary resource. So its not the perfect emergency heal, its just what was left after they gave all the good toys to the inquisitards and the coconut hunters. By the time they can use their first innervate in that sequence(which heals for less than surgical probe), my 5k Kolto Infusion has already landed. I have it down to a 1.25s cast. And it's the perfect emergency tool for someone who just f'd up in raid. Sorc bubbles, op casts KInf. The HPS is still lower than other classes, the burst healing is still lower than other classes, the utility is still lower than other classes (its even lower than Coconut hunter healers). We have the highest burst healing in the game. I don't know of any other class that do around 11,000 healing in 2.9s. Even sorcs with their bugged ability (which is getting fixed in 1.2) allowing them to do 2 back to back 1.5s casts can't do the same hps over 2 globals as us. You manage to put more effort into your healing/resource management/positioning (youre basically melee) You're doing something severely wrong if you're in melee on most fights. The sorcerer is carrying you (assuming equivalent gear and skill levels). I assume your group is running 8-person operations and not 16-person operations? Not sure about his group, but we cleared nightmare EV with 2 ops before our sorc hit 50. (We obviously run ops/sorc now as it's obviously better). Bioware even stated that their internal testers (obviously not the best players around LOL) have had no problem clearing all the content with all the healer combinations. Would you like me to show you the math? Would the maths and the numbers convince you? Why would math convince anyone of anything on a healer? Real-world healing has between little and nothing to do with on-paper throughput. I would like to see a 50 well gear op healer post the HP, energy, and total estimated time to complete for the two combos: 1. kolto injection / surgical probe 2. kolto injection / kolto infusion I don't have to estimate. I can tell you exactly. Assuming no crits: 1. 3430-3964hp, 25 energy, 1.66s (then you're out of commission for another 1.5s while you wait for the GCD) 2. 4608-5209hp, 45 energy, 2.91s (but you can immediately do an ability now) Edited February 19, 2012 by HeavenlyBluE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrdan Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) I don't have to estimate. I can tell you exactly. Assuming no crits: 1. 3430-3964hp, 25 energy, 1.66s (then you're out of commission for another 1.5s while you wait for the GCD) 2. 4608-5209hp, 45 energy, 2.91s (but you can immediately do an ability now) Okay that is some news to me... I had though the skill delay bug was causing the delay after surgical probe. So then that entails that injection/surgprobe is for energy efficiency and injection/infusion is for HPS throughput... thanks for the info. doe surgical probe still trigger a GCD if the target is below 30% health? If yes, that (to me) completely throws water on the devs stating that surg probe is 'good' as a rescue skill... it is not. After using surgical you can't another heal to them for another 1.5 (another surg probe) at best and 3-3.7 seconds if you follow up surg probe with injection or infusion. Still a problem with the working cohesion of the three skills but less than I stated above. As for the HPS throughput you stated... 11k in 3 seconds with two crits and a KP tick to boot is pretty great but that's crits ( you stated above the default is 4.5k'ish plus a KP tick in 3 seconds). In practice I think sorc's easily match op's for single target healing / damage absorption / mitigation buffs (armor buffs). I have been bubbled ( a huge absorb) then healed for 6-8k by sorc in 3 seconds while the sorc AoE HoT and single target running Hot's also healed the other two for another 1.5-3k respectively over that same 3 seconds... that like 10-13k equivalent on a single target plus the other heals going on. Heck... I'm gonna switch back to healing spec and give it a whirl again. Edited February 19, 2012 by Cyrdan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feverish Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Not sure about his group, but we cleared nightmare EV with 2 ops before our sorc hit 50. (We obviously run ops/sorc now as it's obviously better). Heavenlyblue I agree with a lot of what you've posted but I think most of the ppl arguing back is, why issit that sorcs and mercs bring more utility to a raid then us? I love using DS during times of low energy because of burst heals and what not... push the tanker close to full and drop some DS on him to keep him up and replenish energy... so yeah I agree with the usage of all skills... dropping RN/KP with DS helps sustain energy by a lot. I wasn't a firm believer in RN because of all I've been reading about it but yeah a guildmate of mine helped me change my mind and I've respecced and anticipating the incoming buff to it hopefully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oghier Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 doe surgical probe still trigger a GCD if the target is below 30% health? If yes, that (to me) completely throws water on the devs stating that surg probe is 'good' as a rescue skill... It does trigger the GCD. You are correct that this significantly reduces its usefulness as a rescue skill -- if someone is in that much trouble, spamming a small heal isn't going to help much, even if it's free. The one time I have found that aspect of SP to be useful is in PvP, when I'm fleeing from someone and badly hurt, with a TA up. Because it can be cast on the move, it sometimes allows you to survive long enough to run toward your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSeacrest Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I would like a chance on periodic heal to return energy. Something like that would encourage us to keep multiple stacks of our HoT on more than just the tank. It would also improve our aoe healling significantly. Whatever they do should be unique to our class though, rather than giving us a flat increase to healing or giving the same buff that mercs do. Right now though, we are viable enough for nightmare content, so I don't really care. Better to be the underpowered class in the first few months of a game which will hopefully have a healthy life span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavenlyBluE Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Heavenlyblue I agree with a lot of what you've posted but I think most of the ppl arguing back is, why issit that sorcs and mercs bring more utility to a raid then us? Yea that's very true.. I guess ops could definitely use a "defining ability." Something like sorc's circle or force pull, or the merc +healing recieved and + armor buffs. I wasn't a firm believer in RN because of all I've been reading about it but yeah a guildmate of mine helped me change my mind and I've respecced and anticipating the incoming buff to it hopefully There are definitely some great specs that can be had by giving up RN. When I go on one of my hardcore-mode kicks to farm something up and run chain heroics I like to respec to 22/15/4. You can do a ridiculous amount of damage - for a healer - which is great for when you have to group with pug ******* and complete heroics without wiping to enrage timers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts