Do stats/gear really matter in a MMO?

[Psiwolf]

Because that would take away every feeling of "Character Uniqueness" for lack of better of term out of a game, and to do that in an MMORPG is detrimental to the core foundation of the genre itself. There has to be a feeling of originality in your character. It has to be yours. With your proposal, everyone is basically just clones of the other.

 

The game would simply not be an RPG of any sort.

 

You're wrong. Without factoring in stats, you think it would take a long time for a graphic artist to whip up a couple different sets of armor? Or even like in swtor right now, the same set of armor with different variations? With enough time, your character will be uniquely yours, as more and more armor sets keep coming out.

 

When vanilla wow first launched, I was one of the first people on my server with a level 60 white saber mount without the armor. Over time, more and more people bought the same mount. However, when the armored mounts came out, most people turned their old mounts in for the new one, and then those old ones became ultra rare. Eventually people began to envy my old mount because it was no longer available and it was rarely seen. People love getting unique, super rare mount drops because while they have absolutely no effect in the game other than to take you from a to b, just like any other mount, they can show them off to people. This would be the same concept applied to armor. If I thought an armor looked cool but it would be even cooler in black instead of red, artists could easily render that and devs could put it into the game.

[dashspeed]

Yep it's the same old crap that wow does,hence my sub runs out in 2days and I'm gone.Gear should matter but because of how it looks not what stats it has.

 

Right, and that's the same thing that basically applies to EVERY OTHER MMO

 

 

People that base everything off WoW really stand out from the crowd that ACTUALLY have proper knowledge of the genre.

 

You're wrong. Without factoring in stats, you think it would take a long time for a graphic artist to whip up a couple different sets of armor? Or even like in swtor right now, the same set of armor with different variations? With enough time, your character will be uniquely yours, as more and more armor sets keep coming out.

 

Also, this is incredibly insulting to artists. Alright, so hey, let's all pretend pharmacists can "whip out!" a cure for every illness out there. What, that's unrealistic? Right, because being a 3D Artist is easy and you click a few times on the screen and stuff pops out. Hey, a pharmacist just uses pipettes here and there and creates a vaccine.

 

Don't belittle work you have no idea how is done.

Edited February 16, 2012 by dashspeed

[Karraway]

So, gear should matter, but gear shouldn't matter?

 

MMORPGs are built around the D&D model. Questing, accumulating wealth, gear, etc.

 

What you're asking for is during chargen to be able to pick "Warrior" and just hop into game at max level, with some "appearance options", and just wade into pvp.

 

That's pretty much an FPS, you know?

 

Sounds like this genre just isn't for you.

 

Iv been playing this genre for 10+yrs and maybe it no longer is for me because the modern mmo player has really lost touch with the real idea of mmorpg, gear plays a part yes but it's only since wow that it's become the be all instead of part of it.

[Psiwolf]

That reminds me how wrong BioWare got this on the PvP gear for the consular, it looks like my character found it in a trash can.

 

I play a female sith sorc and for the love of me, I dunno why the chest piece is cut off midway down. The male version of the chest looks sooo much nicer. Relatively ofc, since sorc gear ALSO looks like it was found in a trash can. /sigh

[dashspeed]

Iv been playing this genre for 10+yrs and maybe it no longer is for me because the modern mmo player has really lost touch with the real idea of mmorpg, gear plays a part yes but it's only since wow that it's become the be all instead of part of it.

 

Nope. You obviously haven't played UO. Going out in full iron armor was pretty bad compared to full copper, for example.

 

Gear always counted, stop trying to make stuff up just so you can convince everybody you think you know how the genre evolved.

[acheros]

Stat increases are one of the fundamental things of RPG for a long time, without it it would not be a true MMOROG anymore.

 

Would it still be online?

Yes.

Would you still be able to group up and talk to anyone who plays on your server?

Yes.

 

Thats massively multiplayer online.

 

Would you still play a ROLE?

Yes.

Would it still be a video game?

Yes.

Thats a roleplaying game.

 

Who gets to choose what a "true" MMORPG is? You don't, I don't..

[Psiwolf]

Right, and that's the same thing that basically applies to EVERY OTHER MMO

 

 

People that base everything off WoW really stand out from the crowd that ACTUALLY have proper knowledge of the genre.

 

 

 

Also, this is incredibly insulting to artists. Alright, so hey, let's all pretend pharmacists can "whip out!" a cure for every illness out there. What, that's unrealistic? Right, because being a 3D Artist is easy and you click a few times on the screen and stuff pops out. Hey, a pharmacist just uses pipettes here and there and creates a vaccine.

 

Don't belittle work you have no idea how is done.

 

U MAD? Ok jk, didn't mean to troll in my own thread.

I think you're kinda looking it in the wrong way. What I'm saying is, it's easier for artists to come up with new armor concepts than it is for programmers to number crunch how much stats to add to gear and then see how that affects abilities and then find the corrolation between that and pve/pvp content. K thx.

[LyriaFrost]

Iv been playing this genre for 10+yrs and maybe it no longer is for me because the modern mmo player has really lost touch with the real idea of mmorpg, gear plays a part yes but it's only since wow that it's become the be all instead of part of it.

 

I've been playing MMO's since 1999 (started with Asheron's Call), and it's ALWAYS been about gear. Better gear = better performance. ESPECIALLY in pvp. It's just the way it works. Like I said, it's based on the tabletop RPG game setup, where the goal was to get better and better gear. Skills (and player skill) matters, but gear matters too.

 

Back in DAoC, having a crafted and spellcrafted masterwork (100% quality) weapon compared to an 89% quality dropped weapon was a pretty sizeable difference. Having spellcrafted gear to maximize your stats/resists was a huge difference compared to just random gear.

 

Gear has always mattered. WoW changed nothing, other than accelerating the "stat creep" of gear with their rapid increase of "gear tiers".

[Fentz]

so.. howd you character get stronger? cuz that's kinda also 1 of the purpuses of gear

[Karraway]

I've been playing MMO's since 1999 (started with Asheron's Call), and it's ALWAYS been about gear. Better gear = better performance. ESPECIALLY in pvp. It's just the way it works. Like I said, it's based on the tabletop RPG game setup, where the goal was to get better and better gear. Skills (and player skill) matters, but gear matters too.

 

Back in DAoC, having a crafted and spellcrafted masterwork (100% quality) weapon compared to an 89% quality dropped weapon was a pretty sizeable difference. Having spellcrafted gear to maximize your stats/resists was a huge difference compared to just random gear.

 

Gear has always mattered. WoW changed nothing, other than accelerating the "stat creep" of gear with their rapid increase of "gear tiers".

 

Exactly, maybe I didn't word things as well as I could have. Yes gear has always mattered but not at the rate that mmos do now, skill played a far bigger role.Now all you need is the newest tier and it's more or less a done deal.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Karraway

[knightblaster]

Would it still be online?

Yes.

Would you still be able to group up and talk to anyone who plays on your server?

Yes.

 

Thats massively multiplayer online.

 

Would you still play a ROLE?

Yes.

Would it still be a video game?

Yes.

Thats a roleplaying game.

 

Who gets to choose what a "true" MMORPG is? You don't, I don't..

 

So, TF2 is an MMORPG?

[LyriaFrost]

Exactly, maybe I didn't word things as well as I could have. Yes gear has always mattered but not at the rate that mmos do now, skill played a far bigger role now all you need is the newest tier and it's more or less a done deal.

 

I wouldn't say "that MMOs do now". WoW is a specific case in which the gear creep exploded through the roof. I haven't seen that in this game.

 

Gear matters, but so does skill. I haven't seen excessive gear creep in this game yet.

[Psiwolf]

I've been playing MMO's since 1999 (started with Asheron's Call), and it's ALWAYS been about gear. Better gear = better performance. ESPECIALLY in pvp. It's just the way it works. Like I said, it's based on the tabletop RPG game setup, where the goal was to get better and better gear. Skills (and player skill) matters, but gear matters too.

 

Back in DAoC, having a crafted and spellcrafted masterwork (100% quality) weapon compared to an 89% quality dropped weapon was a pretty sizeable difference. Having spellcrafted gear to maximize your stats/resists was a huge difference compared to just random gear.

 

Gear has always mattered. WoW changed nothing, other than accelerating the "stat creep" of gear with their rapid increase of "gear tiers".

 

Again, I'm not begrudging people gear, what I'm saying is that stats on the gear is actually kinda pointless and redundant since they try to balance each encounter thereafter to make the content difficult, even with the "improved" gear. Also, different gear sets could still have different set bonuses, such as the sorc shield's cd being reduced to 8 seconds on the pvp gear for sorcs. RPGS, in fact, ANY GAME IN GENERAL should make the point of entertaining the player and being fun to play, not just sheer number crunching.

[Karraway]

I wouldn't say "that MMOs do now". WoW is a specific case in which the gear creep exploded through the roof. I haven't seen that in this game.

 

Gear matters, but so does skill. I haven't seen excessive gear creep in this game yet.

 

I'm sure it will seems to have chosen to follow the same model as wow and rift,I guess all we can do is wait and see.

[Drudenfusz]

Would you still play a ROLE?

Yes.

Would it still be a video game?

Yes.

Thats a roleplaying game.

 

Who gets to choose what a "true" MMORPG is? You don't, I don't..

So people who are not playing a role, but just PvP for example where they don't care for what the story is all about are not playing an MMORPG anymore even if it is an MMORPG that they are playing? video game RPGs have taken many things from pen & paper RPGs, and in them also the stats on my character sheet were of importance. Without any stats, it would be meaningless what your character actually is, because he would just be like the next character. So it is not as simple as you think it might be.

[xxdragonragexx]

Gear progression = grind = subs

 

It is very simple. No gear grind = no subs.

People don't play guild wars for a year (most quit in a month then come back again) but a lot of people play World Of Warcraft for a year and still get addicted to it.

 

If you think MMO shouldn't have a gear progression then you obviously don't know how people get addicted to MMOs.

[knightblaster]

Gear progression = grind = subs

 

It is very simple. No gear grind = no subs.

People don't play guild wars for a year (most quit in a month then come back again) but a lot of people play World Of Warcraft for a year and still get addicted to it.

 

If you think MMO shouldn't have a gear progression then you obviously don't know how people get addicted to MMOs.

 

I agree generally.

 

I think games *could* be designed the way the OP describes if they had GW's business model of basing revenue and profit from box sales/DLC only, and not subs.

[Psiwolf]

So people who are not playing a role, but just PvP for example where they don't care for what the story is all about are not playing an MMORPG anymore even if it is an MMORPG that they are playing? video game RPGs have taken many things from pen & paper RPGs, and in them also the stats on my character sheet were of importance. Without any stats, it would be meaningless what your character actually is, because he would just be like the next character. So it is not as simple as you think it might be.

 

Pvpers also play roles. When I'm pvping on my sith sorc, I'm still healing. People still play a role when they carry the ball in Huttball. ~_~; Without stats, toon abilities can be more easily balanced and it would not be just like the next character because they may or may not have the same ability as you. However, skill would come more into play, as you'd have to make the decision of when to do what and couldn't rely on your gear's stats to carry you when you made a mistake.

 

Not everyone in the world runs around in D&D with a +5 Vorpal sword. Stats increases in D&D is supposed to be pretty rare.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Psiwolf

[LyriaFrost]

Again, I'm not begrudging people gear, what I'm saying is that stats on the gear is actually kinda pointless and redundant since they try to balance each encounter thereafter to make the content difficult, even with the "improved" gear. Also, different gear sets could still have different set bonuses, such as the sorc shield's cd being reduced to 8 seconds on the pvp gear for sorcs. RPGS, in fact, ANY GAME IN GENERAL should make the point of entertaining the player and being fun to play, not just sheer number crunching.

 

Part of the fun, for a lot of people, is finding new, better gear than what they have.

 

The New Sword of Penultimate Foesmiting might glow a different color, and do 2 more dps. Upgrade! Woo!

 

For some people, that's a lot of fun. Hell, I used to have TONS of fun in DAoC running around with my spreadsheet checking all the player housing areas for spellcrafted gear to try and shoehorn into my setup so I could still use my epic 50th level class gear (almost NOBODY used it, because spellcrafted gear could be customized, and was easier to minmax with). But I loved how it looked. And I still maxed everything out, which made me a happy gamer.

 

Here's a question for you. Let's say things worked the way you want, and there aren't any "levels". No "stats". You have X health based on your class, Y abilities based on your class, and you got to pick a set of gear out of however many different setups that had various set bonuses.

 

How exactly is it an MMORPG anymore? Is it any different than an FPS?

[lineschmidt]

So what? Do you also go around RPing, which is also a staple of "Role Playing Games"? Some people do, some people don't. However, why be stuck on it? There's nothing wrong with thinking/going outside the box.

That's not thinking outside the box though, you just want to turn it into another type of game

[Psiwolf]

Part of the fun, for a lot of people, is finding new, better gear than what they have.

 

The New Sword of Penultimate Foesmiting might glow a different color, and do 2 more dps. Upgrade! Woo!

 

For some people, that's a lot of fun. Hell, I used to have TONS of fun in DAoC running around with my spreadsheet checking all the player housing areas for spellcrafted gear to try and shoehorn into my setup so I could still use my epic 50th level class gear (almost NOBODY used it, because spellcrafted gear could be customized, and was easier to minmax with). But I loved how it looked. And I still maxed everything out, which made me a happy gamer.

 

Here's a question for you. Let's say things worked the way you want, and there aren't any "levels". No "stats". You have X health based on your class, Y abilities based on your class, and you got to pick a set of gear out of however many different setups that had various set bonuses.

 

How exactly is it an MMORPG anymore? Is it any different than an FPS?

 

Quote 1, please meet Quote 2.

 

Would it still be online?

Yes.

Would you still be able to group up and talk to anyone who plays on your server?

Yes.

 

Thats massively multiplayer online.

 

Would you still play a ROLE?

Yes.

Would it still be a video game?

Yes.

Thats a roleplaying game.

 

Who gets to choose what a "true" MMORPG is? You don't, I don't..

[xxdragonragexx]

Who gets to choose what a "true" MMORPG is? You don't, I don't..

 

Money gets to choose what a true MMORPG is.

So again.

Gear progression = grind = subscription money

Edited February 16, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[Drudenfusz]

Pvpers also play roles. When I'm pvping on my sith sorc, I'm still healing. People still play a role when they carry the ball in Huttball. ~_~; Without stats, toon abilities can be more easily balanced and it would not be just like the next character because they may or may not have the same ability as you. However, skill would come more into play, as you'd have to make the decision of when to do what and couldn't rely on your gear's stats to carry you when you made a mistake.

That would make every FPS also a RPG...

 

Not everyone in the world runs around in D&D with a +5 Vorpal sword. Stats increases in D&D is supposed to be pretty rare.

I know, and I have already written in this thread that I think MMOs never got it right (maybe with the exception of DDO which is pretty close to how pen & paper D&D once was).

 

I don't think the stats are the problem, but how MMORPG developers have used them.

[LyriaFrost]

Quote 1, please meet Quote 2.

 

Not the same, though.

 

By that definition, FPS games are MMORPGs.

RTS games are MMORPGs.

Diablo and its ilk are MMORPGS.

 

UO, EQ, and the like established the MMORPG, really. That's what the term is based on. Trying to argue that "well, you play a role and it's online, therefore it's an MMORPG!" is equivalent to saying that a bicycle is the same as an 18-wheel truck, because they both have wheels, both have a driver, and can be used to carry stuff around. Right?

[Marlaine]

Your "out of the box" idea was done ~15 years ago. It was called Quake Live.

 

What the OP is describing sounds like Team Fortress 2 (now with more hats!). Not really sure why you'd need a persistent world for that though.

 

To be fair, I've often thought that a game focusing on battlegrounds could be pretty popular. You could treat it like a fps and give everyone the same gear (perhaps some slight upgrades ala the battlefield series), and have like 10-15 maps. Clearly not a mmo, but would use mmo battle mechanics.

 

It wouldn't be my cup of tea but I think there might be some interest.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Marlaine