Logical fallacy of punishing WZ quitters - It will hurt more than help

[goxwerd]

And so you want these people forced into playing on a team with you and you think it's going to be to your benefit?

 

 

 

Sorry buddy but its a random queueing system. You are not entitled to anything more than the guy who got into the same game as you. You keep trying to make it sound like people are "forced" to play this game..

 

PVP is totally optional and in order to have a competitive environment there needs to be rules. One of those rules is you need to stay the entire game. If leaving the game was so important then you can afford to do something else for 15 min until you join another game.

 

If you dont like it queue with 4 people and if you are as good as you think you are, you should be able to win regardless.

 

 

Spoiled MMO kids these days.

Edited February 16, 2012 by goxwerd

[Tierce]

Your threats are empty.

 

Fact is, trash leavers leave games because they don't want to "waste their time."

 

What this change does is either wastes their time by locking them out or forces them to waste their time by staying. They'll either afk (bored out of their minds) or try to grief.

 

Over time, they'll decide it's just not worth it anymore and stop queueing, or queue less often knowing they'll be trapped for 15 minutes with everyone flaming them for being a terrible person.

 

And the rest of the playerbase benefits.

 

So go ahead, threaten all you want - you're the one who will suffer far more than everyone else. And it makes me glad.

 

No, what I want is for these people to be free to leave so they don't waste MY time.

 

And how long have you been using the internet to not understand that people don't care about other people flaming them?

[Celebrus]

No, what I want is for these people to be free to leave so they don't waste MY time.

 

And how long have you been using the internet to not understand that people don't care about other people flaming them?

 

It goes beyond not caring about people flaming you.

 

Who thinks reputation matters in the least in a game where you are allowed/encouraged to cheat your way to the top?

[Tyrias]

... detrimental to the spirit of good competition and worthy challenge.

 

Just.... Lol!

 

Spirit of good competition and worthy challenge? That's not why people leave. They leave because of the LACK of said spirit or worthy challenge. Good competition and worthy challenge are fun. This game, however, is not well endowed in that departments.

 

This is a game where almost everyone gets every "technically legitimate" advantage they can to REDUCE the amount of good competition and worthy challenge, in their favour, naturally. Shockfrozen Water, until it was fixed, was considered a legitimate PvP item.

 

This is a game where many people quite happily abuse illegitimate advantages, like hacks, to reduce the amount of "Worthy Challenge" and "Good competition".

 

Sadly, idealism and objectivity rarely mesh together well.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tyrias

[Tierce]

Sorry buddy but its a random queueing system. You are not entitled to anything more than the guy who got into the same game as you. You keep trying to make it sound like people are "forced" to play this game..

 

PVP is totally optional and in order to have a competitive environment there needs to be rules. One of those rules is you need to stay the entire game. If leaving the game was so important then you can afford to do something else for 15 min until you join another game.

 

If you dont like it queue with 4 people and if you are as good as you think you are, you should be able to win regardless.

 

 

Spoiled MMO kids these days.

 

Buying the game is optional, logging in is optional, this logic fails the slippery slope test.

 

And spoiled kids these days? Please, MMOs make far more attempts to control gameplay now than ever before. If anything it's spoiled control freaks these days that think MMOs should limit everybody to a certain narrow style of gameplay that they think is best. Unfortunately, just like all the other control freaks before, trying to control individual freedom is only shooting yourself in the foot.

[denpic]

Deserter debuff should of been implemented from the start

 

And it's pretty clear by some of the posts in this thread and others

That not many of you have ever participated in team sport

Or competitive games the attitude of some that say they will go out of their way to grief

Just amazes me.

I mean pvp is competition and if you can't compete fairly or lose gracefully

Why even bother to join

 

My server pop is low we have the same players in every wz

I had this one guy leave and join a wz non stop last night

And then started complaining that there was only 1 wz going

That he was sick of losing and playing with bads

funny thing was we won games where he wasn't present

Edited February 16, 2012 by denpic

[savionen]

Deserter debuff should of been implemented from the start

 

And it's pretty clear by some of the posts in this thread and others

That not many of you have ever participated in team sport

Or competitive games the attitude of some that say they will go out of their way to grief

Just amazes me.

I mean pvp is competition and if you can't compete fairly or lose gracefully

Why even bother to join

 

That's like..... the next time you play Football and the other team is full of NFL athletes wearing spiked shoulderpads and half your team doesn't show up to play.

 

I guess if you didn't want to play, you should be kicked out of the league.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[denpic]

That's like..... the next time you play Football and the other team is full of NFL athletes wearing spiked shoulderpads and half your team doesn't show up to play.

 

I guess if you didn't want to play, you should be kicked out of the league.

 

No one walks of a football field because there losing

It's unheard of because when people participate in competition

Win or lose its because they want to they enjoy the competitive spirit

I understand this notion is alien to most of you

But it's ok to lose

Edited February 16, 2012 by denpic

[Tierce]

Deserter debuff should of been implemented from the start

 

And it's pretty clear by some of the posts in this thread and others

That not many of you have ever participated in team sport

Or competitive games the attitude of some that say they will go out of their way to grief

Just amazes me.

I mean pvp is competition and if you can't compete fairly or lose gracefully

Why even bother to join

 

My server pop is low we have the same players in every wz

I had this one guy leave and join a wz non stop last night

And then started complaining that there was only 1 wz going

That he was sick of losing and playing with bads

funny thing was we won games where he wasn't present

 

So... wouldn't you want this guy to always leave since you were better off without him? Why the heck would you want to institute a penalty that would make him more likely to stay? I seriously do not understand this thought process.

[savionen]

No one walks of a football field because there losing

It's unheard of because when people participate in competition

Win or lose its because they want to they enjoy the competitive spirit

I understand this notion is alien to most of you

But it's ok to lose

 

It doesn't have anything to do with losing, it has to do with enjoying the game or not.

 

I do not enjoy PvP when it's 8vs4, and we're massively down before the rest of our team shows up.

I do not enjoy playing against speedhackers in Huttball or cheaters in Voidstar.

 

It doesn't make sense to punish people for leaving when there's so many random issues and bugs.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[denpic]

So... wouldn't you want this guy to always leave since you were better off without him? Why the heck would you want to institute a penalty that would make him more likely to stay? I seriously do not understand this thought process.

 

Because its annoying to the rest of the team

Seeing someone leave join leave join wz there none to replace him

See the abort sequence start stop start stop all because this 1 bratt

Can't cooperate on a team game

[denpic]

It doesn't have anything to do with losing, it has to do with enjoying the game or not.

 

I do not enjoy PvP when it's 8vs4, and we're massively down before the rest of our team shows up.

 

That's pvp on a low pop faction imbalance server

Hopefully x server wz will address this and well see full teams fr the start

And yes 4v8 is an auto loss but that doesn't justify quiting

[Voloon]

I love how you put the words logical fallacy in your title, as if your post is free of them.

 

Everyone can do it, so it punishes no one? LoL, more like everyone can do it, so it punishes everyone.

 

A half hearted sore loser is still more useful than a rotating door of waits on people that may or may not instantly leave the game, creating a perpetual hole.

 

If the other team exploits? Lets use your stupid logic against you. Well since anyone exploits, its not really an exploit.

 

Don't cite the holy logic as if you actually have any clue what it means.

[Turlinde]

"the rest of the team isnt pulling their weight" in your opinion.

They may think this about you. My guess is if everyone who felt this left every game would end prematurely. Luckily most arent selfish and gut it out.

 

I am sorry but this is ridiculous. Here is the reality. On every server, there is a core of good PvP players. We all know each other. I am Valor 73. That means a lot of matches. I generally know who knows how to play and who doesnt. I also know who is better at my class than I am in both factions.

 

It's not like their is some big mystery--as to who is good and who is bad (and who is just inbetween).

 

As far as being selfish, I dont recall anyone ever leaving one of my games that was winnable unless they disconnected. And I wasnt offended if they left an obvious loss. Didn't hurt me any. I still got my Valor and Credits.

[Turlinde]

If people are that pathetic, there is nothing to be done. It's one thing to screw over your teammates because you only want to play in a perfect match. (The WZ I want, not with bads, not against BM, not against premades etc etc etc)

 

I don't need perfect games. I play for fun. Today, in a Voidstar, we were getting rolled. I was surprised. I knew we had several good players. Then I counted and I realized it was 5 (us) versus 8 (them). I checked the map and discovered 3 people hiding in a corner AFK.

 

I left.

 

Why should I have stayed?

[glenbruton]

See, this is the thing about this idea of giving a punishment to WZ quitters. I'll put aside the whole argument that everyone should have the right to play how they want to play and that if everybody can leave at will, then nobody is punished when people leave because everybody else can leave too. I'll put aside the argument that now you are going to be stuck playing in games where the other team exploits and you have no chance to win. I'll put aside the argument that now when you get UI bugged, crash out, or get forced out of the Warzone some way through no fault or choice of your own, you are going to get punished. Forget all those arguments for now.

 

Players that want to leave a Warzone, but are forced to stay due to the penalty, they are just going to not try. Worse, they are going to sandbag their own team if it will expedite the end of the game by the other team winning. They are going to throw the ball to the other team. They are going to leave nodes undefended. They are going to friendly yank you into the fire/acid. They are going to watch the other team bomb the door and do nothing. They are going to just try to get kills fighting on the sides or in between nodes if they aren't the type to enjoy griefing their own team (and trust me, lots of people will do this, especially since they are introducing cross-server Warzones that will give people total anonymity). You can't make people do what they don't want to do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

 

There is already a penalty for leaving warzones early, and that is not getting your valor, commendations, XP, or credits. Aligning the Dailies with this is the right thing to do, so that people do not have much to gain by leaving a Warzone and have more to gain by staying in it even if it is a loss. Penalizing people with a deserter debuff or any kind of lockout is only going to cause different, and much greater pains to the players who want to stay in and compete. I would much rather let someone leave and get a new player who might want to help the team, than make that first person stay and be stuck with a wasted spot, or worse, essentially giving the other team a 9th player.

 

I dont want those type of players in my warfront anyway. They were going to suck and farm medals. Penalise more if it keeps them out!

[glenbruton]

If people are that pathetic, there is nothing to be done. It's one thing to screw over your teammates because you only want to play in a perfect match. (The WZ I want, not with bads, not against BM, not against premades etc etc etc)

 

I don't need perfect games. I play for fun. Today, in a Voidstar, we were getting rolled. I was surprised. I knew we had several good players. Then I counted and I realized it was 5 (us) versus 8 (them). I checked the map and discovered 3 people hiding in a corner AFK.

 

I left.

 

Why should I have stayed?

 

Perhaps you should be asking them to fix AFK detection?

[Northwynde]

Exactly. As someone else on this forum posted earlier,

 

"I'll give you 7 reasons why I quit a WZ.

All 7 of them are on my team."

 

I refuse to carry a bunch of level 10s, or better yet level 40-something bored semi-AFKs.

 

Hope you don't plan on pvping at 50 then, cause you will be dead weight for your team. You are in for a rude awakening if you think level 10's can't contribute compared to a fresh 50 vs BMs.

[Bejita]

if you dont like leavers dont play with them! get in a premade if you are so serious about pvp, if you join pvp solo you really dont have any idea what to expect, it could be a faceroll for you or the other team, it is very rare that the two sides in pvp are balanced. Most everytime one side gets owned hardcore

 

untill they add seperate pre made queues and rated wz's leaving is a legitimate and neccessary feature!

[zElmTree]

I'll put aside the argument that now you are going to be stuck playing in games where the other team exploits and you have no chance to win. I'll put aside the argument that now when you get UI bugged, crash out, or get forced out of the Warzone some way through no fault or choice of your own, you are going to get punished. Forget all those arguments for now.

 

 

NO! you can't put that argument aside because THAT is the main reason they can't implement the punishment for WZ quitters! As you said, it wasn't their fault and they don't deserve to be punished for something they had no part in except being the victim of the crash or UI problems. If the rumors that BW is going to put in the 15 warzone block on quitters, for the innocents it's kinda like giving them 15 minutes of jail time for being the victim, not the culprit.

[Northwynde]

I agree with you.

 

However, I do not see people quitting at 2-0, nor do I.

 

I see people quitting at 4-0 or 5-0, and I do too, because at that point it is clear the losing team has no idea what they are doing. Like I said before, competitive games, even losses, are fun. Blowouts =/= fun.

 

They are quitting the second their team falls behind on my server. Its not just well geared people doing it, its fresh 50s too. They are fishing to be carried to a win, plain and simple.

[Turlinde]

No one walks of a football field because there losing

It's unheard of because when people participate in competition

Win or lose its because they want to they enjoy the competitive spirit

I understand this notion is alien to most of you

But it's ok to lose

 

IN football, the teams are competitive. If the NFL played against a high school team, you might have people walk off. If the 49ers had only 6 players on offence against 11 Saints on defence, they might walk off.

 

The issue is that the teams arent competitive or even.

[Turlinde]

Have a two minute timer in zone,you dont move,you get removed plus the lockout,seems fair.

 

Good idea. Except, I go alt tab to read ESPN. Tab back every minute or so to hit a key, then go back to reading ESPN. What now?

[Kurro]

See, this is the thing about this idea of giving a punishment to WZ quitters. I'll put aside the whole argument that everyone should have the right to play how they want to play and that if everybody can leave at will, then nobody is punished when people leave because everybody else can leave too. I'll put aside the argument that now you are going to be stuck playing in games where the other team exploits and you have no chance to win. I'll put aside the argument that now when you get UI bugged, crash out, or get forced out of the Warzone some way through no fault or choice of your own, you are going to get punished. Forget all those arguments for now.

 

Players that want to leave a Warzone, but are forced to stay due to the penalty, they are just going to not try. Worse, they are going to sandbag their own team if it will expedite the end of the game by the other team winning. They are going to throw the ball to the other team. They are going to leave nodes undefended. They are going to friendly yank you into the fire/acid. They are going to watch the other team bomb the door and do nothing. They are going to just try to get kills fighting on the sides or in between nodes if they aren't the type to enjoy griefing their own team (and trust me, lots of people will do this, especially since they are introducing cross-server Warzones that will give people total anonymity). You can't make people do what they don't want to do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

 

There is already a penalty for leaving warzones early, and that is not getting your valor, commendations, XP, or credits. Aligning the Dailies with this is the right thing to do, so that people do not have much to gain by leaving a Warzone and have more to gain by staying in it even if it is a loss. Penalizing people with a deserter debuff or any kind of lockout is only going to cause different, and much greater pains to the players who want to stay in and compete. I would much rather let someone leave and get a new player who might want to help the team, than make that first person stay and be stuck with a wasted spot, or worse, essentially giving the other team a 9th player.

 

Remember that time when people left warzones and the players who don;t leave get stuck in a now losing warzone and the ones who left get into a new queue with the possibility of getting carried by the enemy teams lack of gear. Let's not punish leavers because... I'm sorry why exactly? Punishing leavers might hurt the people who are stuck with the faggles in said warzone, but it WONT punish people who take their place. So all in all, it hurts fewer people.

 

TL;DR warzone leaver is wah wah and no one has respect for him so he uses wall of text.

[friendoblendo]

Or... Imagine if the underlying problems with FACTIONAL IMBALANCE were to be addressed and fixed.

 

I cannot fathom as to why the most outstanding problem with this game is still running loose, but even more so the reasoning for instating short-term quick fixes to a clearly long-term problem. I wouldn't quit WZ's... If Imp's didn't 3 cap in the first minute of the game. But seeing as they do I don't care and leave accordingly. And the OP is right, I don't get my commendations or valor, and that makes sense. Penalize people for playing PVP? How about you reward republic for having to put up with the hit squads of battlemaster imp premades. That seems fair at this point.

 

EDIT : Three games today, all with IMPs exceeding the 8 player cap. Go figure, thanks bioware.

Edited February 17, 2012 by friendoblendo