"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[chaosdefined]

as i have pointed out. you can play the other AC while playing the opposite faction. then you will not repeat the same story. we all know that classes and ACs are mirrored

 

Yes that's true but without faction change you're left with two characters on two opposite factions. A lot of us like to have all our alts in the same side so we can send gear and money between them and quite often join the same guild.

[grandmthethird]

Yes that's true but without faction change you're left with two characters on two opposite factions. A lot of us like to have all our alts in the same side so we can send gear and money between them and quite often join the same guild.

 

with the new legacy system you will be able to send thing to any of your legacy members even opposite factions. you can have your trooper in BH mando gear if you want

[aznthecapn]

That's something that's been mentioned a lot during the course of this though. It's one of the problems.

Yes one possible solution would be to properly differentiate the AC's into having their own storylines, companions and to add more planets in which to level up on.

 

However the amount of resources and time required to impliment all that, an AC Switch ability would be a far easier implimentation for Bioware to choose.

 

Or Faction Change. So say you levelled up an Assassin to top level, then rolled a...Consular would it be? Levelled that to top level experiencing totally different content and then paid real cash to Faction Change. Then boom, you've got two AC's and got to experience different content.

 

I see your point, but I don't see how allowing you to change ACs solves the problem. I'd much prefer they work to add content rather than find a way for me to circumvent the existing content. To me, part of the fun is experiencing the growth of that character. Learning to adapt how you've been leveling in order to accommodate a new skill. I have two rogues, two hunters and two paladins at or near max level in WoW and the second of the pair was leveled after the first massive revamp to the process (Wrath, not Cat) just to see how it was different.

 

I would not be opposed to faction changes like that. Satisfies the desire for both advanced classes and avoids the nasty replay old content concept. I'd still prefer them to add planets and story. Looking back at how much you could play through when WoW was released and comparing it to this, SWTOR is lacking - significantly.

[chaosdefined]

Which is cool but we still have a faction between our characters. Like I said some of us like having our characters in the same guild to serve mutiple functions and run HM's with.

 

If they introduced a paid faction change service though, that could help.

[-Scopes-]

+I agree with the OP

 

 

I would love this "Multi-spec" to let us have 1 AC different spec...i would pay 20m for it too

 

 

I have a jugernaut and i have plans to play all 8 classes for story..meaning i cant have a marauder on emp...and even if we had more than 8 chars allowed...why play thru the same story...get the same light crystals...mounts...etc...if you were a JAVA programmer...and wanted to use C++ or something...why cant u learn and go for it? why the restrictions? if you dont want to change ur AC then fine...but i hate players who say others shouldnt do it cz they only know how to play caster and wouldnt melee...so others shouldnt either :S be different bioware...give us freedom..most gear can be used for both ACs anyway

[FadeLei]

i think a solution would be instead of a system like weekly respecs make a adv class change only happen a few times in a characters life.

 

lvl 15

lvl 30

lvl 45

 

Would give people ample oppertunity to decide whether they enjoy the advanced class theyve spent time leveling and the oppertunity to change it if theyre not but only at certain points so as not to trivialise the process.

[Autorch]

Here’s an interesting thing to consider. James Ohlen was recently quoted on the kind of metrics he looks at weekly, which you’d expect him to do, and the kind of instrumentation and reporting that you’d expect software like this to have. Ohlen can see the entire game population’s numbers in terms of level balance, how many are playing what, how many alts they have, et cetera.

 

Now, none of us mere mortal consumers have access to those metrics. But if we did, there’d be some correlative indicators available.

 

Start with a base number: # of players who have achieved level 50 with two characters on the same faction.

(at first I wrote “more than one character on the same faction”, then realized it would probably throw the 14% number I’m about to get to, but you’ll see where I’m going in a minute—the math would be a little harder but you could still get to the indicative number.)

 

Of those players, what is the percentage that have achieved level 50 with both Advanced Classes?

 

Now, if the people who argue that Advanced Classes are actually the same as classes, and are fully independent classes in every way that matters, that number would be something like 14%, would it not?

 

14% because they’d have 7 other classes to choose from for their alt, and if the AC’s really are full-on classes and are equal as has been argued, and the intent is for the game to have an even distribution of those classes, then there’s about a 1 in 7, or 14% chance, that they are going to pick a class that just happens to be the other AC from the one they already have.

 

Yes, there’s a lot of unstated assumptions there, chiefly that all else is equal and so forth, which of course it isn’t, so spare me the nitpickery. But as an overly broad statement you’d basically expect it to be that.

 

For any nitpickery, all that means is that you have to do more sophisticated math to arrive at the number. The point is that this number exists. I’m deliberately keeping it simple to explain it.

 

If that number really is about 14%, that means that the anti-respec camp is essentially right. That would clearly show that the lack of content is not preventing people from rolling alts of the same base class and taking them all the way, simple as that.

 

You show me that number is around 14%, and I’m willing to concede you the victory, anti-respec camp. No joke. You were shown to be right and I was shown to be wrong, I will absolutely admit that right here publicly and you will not hear from me again. Except on other topics and only when I’m totally bored at work.

 

However, if that number is significantly lower (and it would be my guess that it is), that might lead one to believe that leveling the 2nd AC is not nearly as appealing as the anti-respec camp would seem to state that it should be.

 

Which is the chief argument motivating the pro-respec camp, the trolling bloviations of others to the contrary, of course. A low number might also lead you to suspect that your class design was conceptually busted at a base level, if indeed you had even distribution as a design goal.

 

I’d be seriously interested in hearing what those numbers really are. I just thought it was interesting to think about because a lot of what we do here is totally speculative. What’s really going on with the business is mostly a black box to us.

 

But somebody, somewhere, actually CAN produce numbers that support one point or the other, and as such it would be a lot more objective than just what people say, even when they’re saying what caused them to quit or will quit over.

 

I’ve been thinking about posting this one to see if the devs will find the courage to hit it on a Q&A.

[Ancientwolfgr]

I'm glad you have unlimited play time

 

Were glad to see even in a game, nobody wants to be held accountable for decisions they make.

[aznthecapn]

I have a jugernaut and i have plans to play all 8 classes for story..meaning i cant have a marauder on emp...and even if we had more than 8 chars allowed...why play thru the same story...get the same light crystals...mounts...etc.../QUOTE]

 

Every time you start a new character, its 80% the same story.

 

Roll on a new server. Make new friends. Play the matching AC on the republic side.

 

You have plenty of freedom.

[bewareofcrazies]

I wouldn't mind if the storylines started out the same... But I feel like it'd be interesting if the storyline branched depending on the AC that you chose.

 

But as of present, and since a vocal majority disagrees with the idea of adding in more potentially awesome content, the best advice I can give is that if you made your Sorcerer lightside, go darkside on your Assassin or vice versa. At the very least, that should give different responses and be semi-more interesting.

[CorellianWannabe]

Were glad to see even in a game, nobody wants to be held accountable for decisions they make.

 

I take it then that you never reallocate skill points, since you made a decision as to how to spend them? You never hit Esc in a dialogue since you made your decision? You would never drop a crafting skill for another?

 

Or are only some decisions worthy of being 'held accountable'?

[MajikMyst]

Or are only some decisions worthy of being 'held accountable'?

 

Welcome to life.. Good luck getting a refund on a house or a car.. However it is much easier to get that refund on a set of towels or a blender..

 

There is no reason anyone should be allowed to change their class.. There is no arguement for such an ability.. Roll a new character and be happy..

[Wetworks]

Welcome to life.. Good luck getting a refund on a house or a car.. However it is much easier to get that refund on a set of towels or a blender..

 

There is no reason anyone should be allowed to change their class.. There is no arguement for such an ability.. Roll a new character and be happy..

 

I can think of many reasons to have AC change, one current example would be the recent changes coming to classes, and the current state of upset customers. If AC change was an option plenty of these frustrated players would be a little less gun ho on quitting knowing that they have the option to change AC while BW "balances".

 

Truly the argument to not allow AC change is completely moot now with all recent updates.

A sith pureblood trooper? But I cant swap my AC to hold a smaller gun and a few different abilities?

 

I know, I know....heard all the same points against AC change.....always the same ones,

 

-Decisions matter

 

-AC is the class

 

-Some dev said it pre release

 

-Play the mirror class opposing faction

 

While the people for AC change have given detailed points on how it would improve gameplay and community.

 

-Alleviate stress of knowing your only AC is going through major overhauls of balance, swap AC, and move on.

 

-No need for 16 character slots when 8 is sufficient w/AC change option

 

-WZ premades Arena- customers will be left out do to a unpopular (Weaker) AC's

 

-End game PvE- Customers will be left out do to unpopular (Weaker) AC's

 

-Farming Valor/Datacrons/Codex/Achievements/Crafting/Companion Affection/Same story all over again (but then if all those things carried over all characters like Legacy, AC change would not be such an issue).

 

-Playing on the other faction for a mirror class is not an option for the customers who play w/friends/guild on one faction.

 

-Less focus on alts and more focus on endgame, SWTOR content that BW has expressed they hoped more players would have taken part in, but haven't.

 

-Entertainment reasons alone should prevail, more options I have w/a character the longer I will play=better for BW.

 

-AC change is optional, in no way does it effect players gameplay who do not want to take part in it.

[aznthecapn]

While the people for AC change have given detailed points on how it would improve gameplay and community.

 

The anti-AC side has also given numerous and detailed points. Disagreeing with them doesn't invalidate them.

 

 

-Alleviate stress of knowing your only AC is going through major overhauls of balance, swap AC, and move on.

 

Major overhauls of balance won't occur on live servers. At least they shouldn't. I certainly haven't ever seen it happen. When it does, its usually via expansion or protracted time on a test server. They don't deploy all the nerfs one month and all the buffs the next. No need to change AC for minor shifts in balance. That's FOTM swapping and should be prohibited.

 

-No need for 16 character slots when 8 is sufficient w/AC change option

 

Adding character slots solves this. Its in the works, no need.

 

-WZ premades Arena- customers will be left out do to a unpopular (Weaker) AC's

 

A community issue - not a gameplay issue. Balance is part of the system. It should be Bioware's priority to make all the classes desirable.

 

-End game PvE- Customers will be left out do to unpopular (Weaker) AC's

 

See above.

 

-Farming Valor/Datacrons/Codex/Achievements/Crafting/Companion Affection/Same story all over again (but then if all those things carried over all characters like Legacy, AC change would not be such an issue).

 

If you want a second character, its expected you put in the same kind of work.

 

-Playing on the other faction for a mirror class is not an option for the customers who play w/friends/guild on one faction.

 

Get your friends to make alts over there too. Or make new friends. Its not ideal, but its still fun.

 

-Less focus on alts and more focus on endgame, SWTOR content that BW has expressed they hoped more players would have taken part in, but haven't.

 

Endgame content needs work. Alts will always be a focus.

 

-Entertainment reasons alone should prevail, more options I have w/a character the longer I will play=better for BW.

 

The more alts you have, the longer you will play = better for Bioware.

 

-AC change is optional, in no way does it effect players gameplay who do not want to take part in it.

 

Yes, it does. Any changes made in a massively multiplayer game effect the entire community. "Why not buff Snipers? It won't effect you if you don't play one." Its part of being in a social game - everything effects everyone. Unless you play this game as a single player format, no grouping or guild, it will effect someone. And if you do, you can roll the mirror AC and there's no problems!

 

 

AC changing for leveling only. Not at max level.

[Wetworks]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=361921&page=10

 

nothing new, same argument

 

-Decisions matter

 

-AC is the class

 

-Some dev said it pre release

 

-Play the mirror class opposing faction

 

Once again the same argument against AC change, while pro AC change gives valid points on how AC change can enrich the customer playing experience.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Wetworks

[KedoFost]

Instead of everyone saying no or yes to this problem, why not try and find middle ground. I understand people want to change and I understand people don't want it because it would cause problems, but why not this....

 

Allow it, so the people who do want it can get it, but at a cost... Make it an extensive and tedious process. Costing around 500k (or more idk) Credits, just to be able to start, THEN have an extensive quest chain that more or less gives you slow and gradual shift into the other Advanced Class. Or make it even harder (just throwing out an idea.) AND have a 30 days cool down before your allowed to do this change again.

 

This would make everyone happy by....

 

1) Allowing those to change who are willing to WORK for it. Its not as easy as "YAY! i spend "X" amount of credits and easy streak all the way!" NO i don't believe in that. If you want it, you down right work yourself to the bone to get it. (Allow this to be done as many times as you want.)

 

2) This would make those who don't want it happy because it still forces the idea of starting the a new character (Chase away the people who want everything handed to them.) If your not willing to work for it, you shouldn't have it. So for those who are worried about the "Switch-and-run" like in WoW, you don't have to because of the time you have to invest into it.

 

I myself love my main character, I don't want to have to start over or make an Alt, Ive had alts before that became my main and I was forced to neglect my main character I liked more. But i would be willing too put in the time and credits to change his AC if I could, but I'm fine either way it is put in or not.

Edited March 20, 2012 by KedoFost

[aznthecapn]

nothing new, same argument

 

-Decisions matter

 

-AC is the class

 

-Some dev said it pre release

 

-Play the mirror class opposing faction

 

A new argument isn't needed.

 

Pro-Ac has been making the same arguments since before release as well. Its ALL the same arguments. Nothing has changed in months of the discussion. Patronizing the opposing side isn't going to win the discussion for you. It also isn't going to convince Bioware to change their minds.

Edited March 20, 2012 by aznthecapn

[Wetworks]

A new argument isn't needed.

 

Pro-Ac has been making the same arguments since before release as well. Its ALL the same arguments. Nothing has changed in months of the discussion. Patronizing the opposing side isn't going to win the discussion for you. It also isn't going to convince Bioware to change their minds.

 

Except pro AC argument has given examples on how it would improve gameplay and customer experience, while against give examples that are not ingame related....that being said hard to debate someone who thinks its ok for AC change while you level, just not at 50....defeats many of your points.

[RWCFlorida]

Admittadly I didn't read all of the posts here, so if it has been said I apologize. But in every other MMO your storyline and quest line was the same, tied only by your faction, and slightly different from start based on race (in some of them), so I fail to see how having 4 different stories per faction is somehow bad, and yet we are asking for more? You can also choose to make the opposite decisions as you did on your previous run through (which only changes minor details but please show me this option in any other MMO).

[Raximillian]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=361921&page=10

 

nothing new, same argument

 

-Decisions matter

 

-AC is the class

 

-Some dev said it pre release

 

-Play the mirror class opposing faction

 

Once again the same argument against AC change, while pro AC change gives valid points on how AC change can enrich the customer playing experience.

 

Sure, nice way to paint it...

 

You forgot:

 

-Dilutes classes (makes them virtually specs, not classes).

 

Also, I could say that your "valid points" for pro-AC change are:

 

-I'm to lazy to level another character...

 

And some people have explicitly stated that in their replies. So yeah, it all depends how you paint it. It's easy to paint a rosy picture for your side of the argument.

 

It all boils down to personal opinions. Some people think it's a good idea, others think it is a bad idea. I personally think it is a bad idea, and currently, BW thinks it is a bad idea. Can it change? Sure, anything can change. Would it make the game better or worse? That's up to discussion. To me, it would make it worse.

[Wetworks]

Sure, nice way to paint it...

 

You forgot:

 

-Dilutes classes (makes them virtually specs, not classes).

 

Also, I could say that your "valid points" for pro-AC change are:

 

-I'm to lazy to level another character...

 

And some people have explicitly stated that in their replies. So yeah, it all depends how you paint it. It's easy to paint a rosy picture for your side of the argument.

 

It all boils down to personal opinions. Some people think it's a good idea, others think it is a bad idea. I personally think it is a bad idea, and currently, BW thinks it is a bad idea. Can it change? Sure, anything can change. Would it make the game better or worse? That's up to discussion. To me, it would make it worse.

 

Does not dilute classes...once again AC is the class argument, nothing new.....I play the Trooper class.

Medic, gunner, assault, shield, etc... are specs of my Trooper class.

I will give example even,

 

Trooper "main"

 

All Aim, Endurance, Cun, Presence Datacrons

 

Matrix shards & matrix cube

 

+10 RF datacron

 

22 Titles

 

68/61 Boss Kills

 

10/17 PvP

 

56 Valor

 

366/647 Total codex (may be bugged ie: does not show all my titles in codex)

 

10,000/10,000 5/5 Companion Affection

 

M1 Droid Maxed Artifact geared+Augment slot

 

Ship Maxed out

 

Cargo bays Unlocked

 

Backpack unlocked

 

400 Armormech (not to mention schematic drops from EV/KP & RE)

 

400 Scavenging

 

400 Underworld Trading

 

3 different set Tio Gear

 

2 sets Columi

 

All sets of Centurian gear

 

1.5 Sets Champion gear

 

Speeder from KP drop (yup I know can be bought now, but still)

 

Speeder from 200 daily comms

 

Every planet besides Corellia done

 

Every Planet bonus missions besides Corellia

 

Every Planet HM 2/4m done besides Corellia

 

Social Rank 3

 

Legacy 25 (yes I know it is account wide, but still attained by main)

 

Class story, done

 

Companion missions/dialogue, done

 

Every norm/HM FP, done

 

59 Orange moddable gear (crafted, HMPlanet missions, FP) collected, many sets.

 

10,000/10,000 Darkside

 

Companion customization kits 5/5

 

16days 8h playtime

 

If I was to compare by rerolling another Trooper, the difference besides doing this all over a second time for the same class would be my name & about 8 different abilities, that's it. Trooper is the class, talents are nothing more then the spec.

 

-I'm to lazy to level another character...

 

and once again a response with a put down, consistent argument against AC change, and in no way a valid point to gameplay. If lazy means doing the same thing two times, yes very lazy.

 

It all boils down to personal opinions. Some people think it's a good idea, others think it is a bad idea. I personally think it is a bad idea, and currently, BW thinks it is a bad idea. Can it change? Sure, anything can change. Would it make the game better or worse? That's up to discussion. To me, it would make it worse.

 

Or it was said as a marketing tool pre-launch because really they only have 4 classes for each faction. It has been proven that they are nothing but specs & talents and not the class. Good example is the list I posted above, and the fact no seperate story line between two ac's, same ships, same companions, etc...

Edited March 21, 2012 by Wetworks

[Raximillian]

Does not dilute classes...once again AC is the class argument, nothing new.....I play the Trooper class.

Medic, gunner, assault, shield, etc... are specs of my Trooper class.

I will give example even,

 

<lots of useless stats>

 

If I was to compare by rerolling another Trooper, the difference besides doing this all over a second time for the same class would be my name & about 8 different abilities, that's it. Trooper is the class, talents are nothing more then the spec.

 

 

 

and once again a response with a put down, consistent argument against AC change, and in no way a valid point to gameplay. If lazy means doing the same thing two times, yes very lazy.

 

 

 

Or it was said as a marketing tool pre-launch because really they only have 4 classes for each faction. It has been proven that they are nothing but specs & talents and not the class. Good example is the list I posted above, and the fact no seperate story line between two ac's, same ships, same companions, etc...

 

All those stats tell me NOTHING. So you already have a trooper with all those stats, so that will stop you from playing, say, a jedi? Because you have to do all that, and get a speeder again, and to all those things? That has to be the weakest argument of them all.

 

Might as well ask for tropper > sith conversions while we are at it... Yes, a few story missions are shared, I understand that, but the rest is pretty much shared between all classes in a faction. So yes, it is pretty much lazyness asking for all that. If you do not want to play the game, why even be in it? Infinite content cannot be provided. Ever. So some repetition will be there. Same thing in pong, tetris, and every single game out there. We have to live with it.

 

Where has it been proven that they are nothing but different specs and talents? If you talk proof, I want to see it. A mercenary, and a powertech play completely different. Sure, they share some skills, but that's about it. They are very different from there on. But if you go to an assassin, and a sorcerer, they are nowhere even in the same vicinity of closeness. One is a melee DPS/tank class, the other is a ranged-caster/healer class. They are nowhere even close. A switch makes no sense at all.

[Wetworks]

All those stats tell me NOTHING. So you already have a trooper with all those stats, so that will stop you from playing, say, a jedi? Because you have to do all that, and get a speeder again, and to all those things? That has to be the weakest argument of them all.

 

Might as well ask for tropper > sith conversions while we are at it... Yes, a few story missions are shared, I understand that, but the rest is pretty much shared between all classes in a faction. So yes, it is pretty much lazyness asking for all that. If you do not want to play the game, why even be in it? Infinite content cannot be provided. Ever. So some repetition will be there. Same thing in pong, tetris, and every single game out there. We have to live with it.

 

Where has it been proven that they are nothing but different specs and talents? If you talk proof, I want to see it. A mercenary, and a powertech play completely different. Sure, they share some skills, but that's about it. They are very different from there on. But if you go to an assassin, and a sorcerer, they are nowhere even in the same vicinity of closeness. One is a melee DPS/tank class, the other is a ranged-caster/healer class. They are nowhere even close. A switch makes no sense at all.

 

All those stats tell me NOTHING. So you already have a trooper with all those stats, so that will stop you from playing, say, a jedi? Because you have to do all that, and get a speeder again, and to all those things? That has to be the weakest argument of them all.

 

Really not worth the read after that, useless stats? The point was the Trooper is the class not the AC, if you cant see that through proof of useless stats, move on. The only difference is abilities on your hotbar & name.

Comparing Trooper to Jedi, c'mon you can bring a better argument then that. I suppose I will have to explain this to you,

 

Jedi and Trooper are different classes

Jedi and Trooper have different companions

Jedi and Trooper have different ships

Jedi and Trooper have different stories

Jedi and Trooper would have different crew skills (unless CT & Bio)

Jedi and Trooper do not share any abilities

Jedi and Troopers have different start area

Jedi and Trooper have different Stats

 

is this clear enough for you, or would you like me to continue?

[Raximillian]

Really not worth the read after that, useless stats? The point was the Trooper is the class not the AC, if you cant see that through proof of useless stats, move on. The only difference is abilities on your hotbar & name.

Comparing Trooper to Jedi, c'mon you can bring a better argument then that. I suppose I will have to explain this to you,

 

Jedi and Trooper are different classes

Jedi and Trooper have different companions

Jedi and Trooper have different ships

Jedi and Trooper have different stories

Jedi and Trooper would have different crew skills (unless CT & Bio)

Jedi and Trooper do not share any abilities

Jedi and Troopers have different start area

Jedi and Trooper have different Stats

 

is this clear enough for you, or would you like me to continue?

 

Yes, they are meaningless stats. You are saying "since I did all this, I should not have to do it again"... Well, the whole idea of the game is to do it again if you want to play another class. That's how it works.

 

Assassin and sorcerer are a different class.

 

Tell me how a melee/tank DPS somehow is the same class as a ranged-caster/healer... Just tell me, how they are the same. They do not play the same, they do not have the same skills (and not just talented skills, but base skills), they are completely different. Not even close to each other. Sure, they share abilities... Er.... One of them has a 10m force lightning, the other has a 30m force lightning... Wait... hum... Same with shock... Dammit...

 

Oh, and just so you know, all classes have the same companions. They all have 1 ranged DPS, 1 melee DPS, 1 ranged tank, 1 melee tank, and 1 healer. Sure, their flavors change a little, but they are the same.

 

It's all semantics... Many classes share an interrupt, all of them have a CC breaker, all of them have a stun, and even many of their main attacks are similar, just different flavors. Sorcs and mercs have a channeled long range attack, a cast time long range attack, an instant long range attack, and an instant long range stun... Yet they are very different... Just because classes share some abilities, does not make them the same class.

 

They are different. Very different. There is no reason why we should be able to change one to another it really makes no sense...

[aznthecapn]

Does not dilute classes...once again AC is the class argument, nothing new.....

 

It does dilute the classes. Don't argue the semantics of title. Its fallen flat on its face since it first cropped up. Advanced classes in SWTOR are classes in other games. You play a Vanguard or a Commando or an Assassin or a Powertech. These are classes. The are different. The only two that aren't markedly different are Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors. They need to be more clearly defined as classes. The rest already are.