"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[Lauski]

I'm pretty sure Bioware would disagree with you on that. Since the more runs though, the longer people sub. The longer people sub the more money they make.

 

A MMO dev will never do anything that they believe will shorten the subscription time of the player base.

 

Heh, you would think, but then there's rest XP that you get even if you're logged off dead, or outside a Cantina... and the fact that it's pretty short compared to other games I've played to get to 50.

 

 

Regardless, I think that you get enough variety in 4 runs through one faction. After that, you have 4 through another. And this is all while they are maintaining new* content at a decent rate.

 

I don't think we need to repeat the story lines to this degree to maintain the game's "value" or "play-ability" factors.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Lauski

[Inarai]

Like what Inarai said it's more like specs the cat would be closest to the stealth assassin and the bear to tank assassin(but basically using the same resource) while the balance would be a dps speced Sorc and resto healer speced Sorc.

 

Another example switching for an Sith Assassin to a Sith Sorcerer would be like changing from a Warrior(2 DPS and Tank) to a Priest(except with 2 DPS and Healing)

 

Don't try to shoehorn in the "one class does all roles!" design, it was specifically excluded here.

[VanorDM]

I don't think we need to repeat the story lines to this degree to maintain the game's "value" or "play-ability" factors.

 

You mean like how every run though WoW is a brand new experience, with fresh and interesting new content that you've never seen before...

 

Because based on your logic, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to convert my Mage into a Warrior, because I've already been though the content once.

[Lauski]

You mean like how every run though WoW is a brand new experience, with fresh and interesting new content that you've never seen before...

 

Because based on your logic, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to convert my Mage into a Warrior, because I've already been though the content once.

 

 

Well, in that example I *would* agree with you that they are fundamentally different experience. They ARE fundamentally different class designs. And, I'm fuzzy on WoW, but as I recall, most (if not all, help on this?) of your class choices didn't completely limit you to DPS in all 3 skill trees.

 

 

I think if SWTOR deems that these 8 paths are "Fundamentally Different Class Designs" then I'd like to see some "Fundamentally different quests and story progressions" to go through, that's all.

[JTShadow]

The above was said by Daniel Erickson during the Community Q&A last Friday, 2/10/2012. While his statement is not false, it's easily a "no duh" statement and a stance I eagerly encourage BioWare to reconsider.

 

Yes, there's a fundamental difference between a melee and a spellcaster. Additionally, there's a fundamental difference between a DPS, a Support, a Healer, and a Tank.

I'm with you so far.

HOWEVER

 

There's not a fundamental difference in the quest lines between all of the above. If I have rolled an Inquisitor, and selected Sorcerer, I am locked into Sorcerer. If I want to play Assassin, which I do terribly want to do, I'm forced to reroll the exact same class and experience the exact same quests.

 

This is where I have an arguement. While the stories are similar, that has nothing to do with the class design itself but everything to do with how you want to play the game. Just because the story would be the same doesn't mean you should be able to switch classes. In many other MMO's out there all classes will share the same story, yet you wouldn't be able to respec from rogue to warrior or mage, even though the story is the same. You are trying to punish SWTOR because they had the decency to improve MMO storylines and offer as many unique experiences as they fesibly could in the amount of time they had.

 

I truly feel punished for selecting the Healing role on my Inquisitor, despite my passion for healing and my preference for spellcasters. To speak from a personal experience, I've already rerolled a couple times trying to find a server to call home. The pre-20 Inq experience has been done repeatedly by me, and I'm pretty over it. I feel that paying customers who are otherwise satisfied with the game shouldn't be forced to choke down old content in an attempt to experience the game fully.

 

This would imply that just because a person leveled up a character once, if they wanted another character that followed the same story, it should just be granted and they shouldn't have to work for it. The story is just part of the game, and theres not going to be new content everytime you make a character. If you play all four storylines, you shouldn't just be handed new max level characters just because you dont want to "choke down old content"

 

To this, I add that at level 10, people have different intents and ideas about how the next 40 levels are going to go. Someone inexperienced in a role may select it and find they're really bad at it, or not select it and then possible heals/tanks are lost. It's not a win/win, it's not even a win/lose, it's a lose/lose and those stink.

 

TL- DR: Yes, the ACs are "fundamentally different." The quests aren't. Please truly consider either allowing AC changes (at additional cost, quests, whatever) or change the AC storylines so that they're significantly different.

 

So because a person doesn't know how good they will be at the class they chose, they should be able to just respec to another until one they are good at is found? You learn to play your class through practice and if its just not for you, then you can start another character and try again. You shouldn't be granted benefits because of your uncertainty.

 

All in all what I'm trying to say is although the two advanced classes inside of each class do share the same storyline, that does not mean they should be interchanged at will because you no longer like what your doing. Many games have multiple classes that follow the same story, and in any such game you would find the notion of changing classes rediculous, but because the story is so pronounced in this game, and there are four different storylines to follow per faction, you expect change that shouldn't be given.

[VanorDM]

I'm fuzzy on WoW, but as I recall, most (if not all, help on this?) of your class choices didn't completely limit you to DPS in all 3 skill trees.

 

There's only two AC's that do that in SWTOR, the Sentinel/Marauder and Gunslinger/Sniper. Every other AC has DPS and either Healer or Tank as an option.

 

There is IMO nothing wrong with having a pure DPS class, because some people will want to play that, because they they aren't expected to change their spec to healer or tank, depending on what the group wants.

 

That said, I'm pretty sure that a number of WoW classes are pure DPS. Rogues, Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks are all pure DPS I believe.

 

then I'd like to see some "Fundamentally different quests and story progressions" to go through, that's all.

 

I'm all for additional content when leveling up. I'd like to see at least two class quest lines for each base class, and enough side quests to provide two totally different paths from 1st to max.

 

That however is not justification for allowing people to switch AC's at level 50.

[Sixt]

You mean like how every run though WoW is a brand new experience, with fresh and interesting new content that you've never seen before...

 

Because based on your logic, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to convert my Mage into a Warrior, because I've already been though the content once.

 

You logic does not follow, in WoW, prior to Outland at 60 (58), there are multiple routes you can take to level, multiple zones at the same level range, there is not one single progression through the level ranges. I could level 2 characters to 60 and they could be on opposite continents for the entire experience and not intersect once. And we are not asking to convert a mage to a warrior, we are asking to convert a mage to a mage that has some different choices, but is still a mage.

 

My suggestion would be to limit dual class to an AC, but allow the character to visit an NPC and pay for a AC respec, (with a rising cost per time, which decays back to initial cost if not used for a period), that would wipe all talent trees, bars etc.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Sixt

[Lokiliesmith]

Well, in that example I *would* agree with you that they are fundamentally different experience. They ARE fundamentally different class designs. And, I'm fuzzy on WoW, but as I recall, most (if not all, help on this?) of your class choices didn't completely limit you to DPS in all 3 skill trees.

 

 

I think if SWTOR deems that these 8 paths are "Fundamentally Different Class Designs" then I'd like to see some "Fundamentally different quests and story progressions" to go through, that's all.

 

 

Let's see.

 

WoW classes at launch

 

Hunter

Druid

Mage

Warlock

Warrior

Paladin/Shaman depending on faction

Priest

Rogue

 

 

And that does not even take into account that during Vanilla the explicit stated design was that any class that could heal would be religated to healing in raids and that pure DPS classes should have higher DPS than any hybrids

 

 

HALF of the classes could ONLY DPS

 

8 classes. 4 of them are limited to ONLY DPSing.

[tazdirector]

Well, first of all, I'm glad this thread has taken off. Dialogue is always good amongst the community.

 

Since I'm late on posting here, I wanted to summarize a couple quick things.

 

Again and for the last time. You want something changed, I do not. That means you have to show why the change is both needed and a benefit. No harm is caused by leaving things as is...If you have a case to make then feel free.

 

As you've made abundantly clear, you are not interested in Bioware allowing AC changing. As much as I enjoy the dialogue, my purpose is not to convince you (or folks who share your opinion), but rather Bioware and the developers. This is, after all, a suggestion forum.

 

My fav was the post that basically said that Advanced Class respecs should be allowed, because they're not really classes. If they were really classes they'd be called classes...

 

I don't think I need to point out the illogic in that statement.

 

As much as we've gone back and forth comparing SWTOR to WoW or CoH or other MMO games, the conversation usually boils down to the definition of classes.

 

The PRO-AC change side believes that Advanced Classes are spec-related, NOT CORE-class related.

 

The ANTI-AC change side believes that Advanced Classes are CORE-class related.

 

We can call it semantics, but since I'm on the PRO-AC change side, I'll illustrate the reasons why I believe Advanced Classes are more spec-related and less class related.

 

REASON# 1: Bioware introduces AC selection akin to Talent Tree Selection

 

While I'm sure this will invite scorn, it IS the 800lb gorilla in the room. As has been made clear in this thread already, there are plenty of players in this room with experience in other MMOs, including WoW and these past experiences affect our interaction with the game.

 

In WoW, at level 10, players are given a CHOICE between three different "specializations" that open up a separate talent tree. For some classes, these trees alter your primary damage output and for others, change the playstyle of the class entirely (Druids, Paladins and Shamans are examples of how the three specializations play out in entirely different ways).

 

In SWTOR, at level 10, players are given a CHOICE between TWO different "Advanced Classes". Within these ACs, are three separate talent trees that provide different playstyles. In many cases, the different trees change the primary damage output systems, but in some cases, the trees specialize a player's class into a tank or a healer instead of DPS.

 

Because the first 10 levels are IDENTICAL regardless of the AC selection, the choice at level 10 doesn't feel like a different class, but rather, a specialization choice. As a Sith Warrior, you've entered combat primarily through Force Leap starting at level 2. At level 10, you will still enter combat primarily through Force Leap REGARDLESS of your AC selection. Further to that point, your combat resources remain the same as does many other aspects including story, companion, ship, etc.

 

As MajikMyst pointed out:

This point is always ignored.. If you selected your AC during character creation, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

With this, I whole-heartedly agree. Because Bioware decided for AC selection to take place AFTER the character-creation, it invites comparison to simply being another tier of a talent-tree selection process.

 

REASON# 2: Advanced Classes are NOT as clearly defined as Core Classes

 

When a player select an AC at level 10, they have two tabs of abilities. One is defined by their Core class (i.e. Sith Warrior) and one is defined by their AC (i.e. Marauder). An Annihilation Marauder will always have (and train) Sith Warrior abilities while an Immortal Juggernaut will ALSO have (and train) Sith Warrior abilities. Regardless of the selection of Marauder or Juggernaut, the character will always be a Sith Warrior at it's core.

 

SIDE WOW NOTE #1: While the Mage vs Rogue discussion has been a popular argument, it's clear to say that no where in WoW do different classes SHARE common abilities. A Mage will never backstab and a Rogue will never launch a Fireball.

 

Photometrik pointed out that:

The only real difference between WoW Talent trees for a class and SWTOR Skill trees for an Advanced Class is the fact that one tree is shared between the two ACs. A lot of the time, it seems, that tree is strictly for utility purposes, so it makes sense that they are shared.

 

Not only do the different ACs share common abilities based in the CORE CLASS, but the two ACs share a common Talent Tree as well. This is where the CLASS delineation breaks down even further.

 

SIDE WOW NOTE #2: Continuing the Mage vs Rogue discussion, it's clear to say that no where in WoW do different classes SHARE a common talent tree.

 

All of these points boil down into quite an ambiguous definition of Advanced Class. It's obviously not a CORE CLASS (since you can't select a Mercenary AC while playing a Warrior); it's not a COMPLETELY different set of Talent Trees (since the two ACs share a common Tree) and it's playstyle is not entirely UNIQUE between the two ACs (Both Juggernauts and Marauder's Force Leap into combat).

 

From my personal perspective, it feels more like a separate SPECIALIZATION as outlined below:

 

CORE CLASS ---> ADVANCED CLASS ---> SPECIALIZATION

 

It's obvious that SWTOR has introduced an additional TIER of specialization which nearly ALL of us enjoy. Having this extra layer of specialization only further diversifies the game and adds additional customization.

 

The primary issue comes down to where the CLASS selection ends and the SPECIALIZATION begins. No one in this forum discussion seems to have issue with different talent specs WITHIN the Advanced Class selection and the ability to RE-spec now (nor even the opportunity dual-spec in the future).

 

That leaves the main point of contention at the Advanced Class selection...is it another TIER of SPECIALIZATION or a CORE CLASS?

 

For many of us on the PRO-AC change side, an Advanced Class is NOT a completely different CLASS, but rather another layer of specialization.

 

Based on that, I believe that players SHOULD be given the opportunity to change that LAYER of customization not just "because I want to...", but primarily due to issues that arise from this being an MMO game that involves end-game activities and operations and the flexibility that can be key to a guild and team's success.

 

As many have pointed out, it will ultimately be up to Bioware and the developers to decide and although they've made it clear that they feel they are different now, it does NOT mean that we shouldn't be given the opportunity to voice our opinion otherwise.

 

This is, afterall, the SUGGESTION forums.

Edited February 15, 2012 by tazdirector

[Lokiliesmith]

You logic does not follow, in WoW, prior to Outland at 60 (58), there are multiple routes you can take to level, multiple zones at the same level range, there is not one single progression through the level ranges. I could level 2 characters to 60 and they could be on opposite continents for the entire experience and not intersect once. And we are not asking to convert a mage to a warrior, we are asking to convert a mage to a mage that has some different choices, but is still a mage.

 

So you define the class by their story, not at all by their play style? Classes are, in every game, defined by the skills, attributes, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, and general play style that define them. I get that you are trying to buck the trend but the only reason you are even asking for this is because they let you make the choice at level 10 instead of level 1. If they created the typical MMO experience of every class having the same story, or even if they just gave 8 base classes and paired them off as they already have you would realize how dumb this suggestion is.

[Lauski]

If they created the typical MMO experience of every class having the same story, or even if they just gave 8 base classes and paired them off as they already have you would realize how dumb this suggestion is.

 

 

Mmm, but see, it's interesting because they didn't.

 

 

This is a new type of MMO, based on the story pillar. The "fourth" pillar of MMO's as they called it. They spent a lot of money on just this feature. It's arguably the biggest thing they brought to the table with the whole game.

 

 

And there is nothing new here, running the same character class twice.

 

 

We wouldn't be arguing at all if they made you make this choice at level 1, you're right. But then, I'd also have the expectation to a different story line.

 

It doesn't seem crazy to think that they first came up with 8 "classes" actually, but realized they needed to lessen the amount of content writing by going with 4.

 

Especially since this doubles when you need to write for republic and imperial.

 

 

Either way, good discussion. I'm going to read the post above yours, looks like a good long post!

[Inarai]

It doesn't seem crazy to think that they first came up with 8 "classes" actually, but realized they needed to lessen the amount of content writing by going with 4

 

So not crazy, they even said as much!

 

Story is not part of the definition of a class. This game's focus on story does not change that.

[Lauski]

Well, first of all, I'm glad this thread has taken off. Dialogue is always good amongst the community.

 

Since I'm late on posting here, I wanted to summarize a couple quick things.

 

Quick? I dunno about "quick" buddy Looks like you're similar to me in your posts. Start it off and THEN you get going ...

 

That leaves the main point of contention at the Advanced Class selection...is it another TIER of SPECIALIZATION or a CORE CLASS?

 

For many of us on the PRO-AC change side, an Advanced Class is NOT a completely different CLASS, but rather another layer of specialization.

 

*clap* *clap* *clap*

 

Great stuff. Very well thought-out. Didn't want to quote the whole thing for obvious reasons. I think you've somehow managed to hit on all of the reasons why IMO, it seems, I don't know... just a little off that you can NEVER change AC.

 

I wonder what the response from the community would have been if they called it "Base Specialization" instead of "Advanced Class"?

[Lokiliesmith]

 

We can call it semantics, but since I'm on the PRO-AC change side, I'll illustrate the reasons why I believe Advanced Classes are more spec-related and less class related.

 

REASON# 1: Bioware introduces AC selection akin to Talent Tree Selection

 

No. They introduce it with a lengthy explanation of how this is changing your class and deciding on your play style forever more. You are given 10 levels to get comfortable with the controls before you make the decision. If this has taught us anything, though, it is that the choice should either be from level 1 or at level 20+ to give people more time.

 

REASON# 2: Advanced Classes are NOT as clearly defined as Core Classes

SIDE WOW NOTE #1: While the Mage vs Rogue discussion has been a popular argument, it's clear to say that no where in WoW do different classes SHARE common abilities. A Mage will never backstab and a Rogue will never fireball.

 

And now I present to you:

Charge v Feral Charge

Demo Shout v Demo Roar

Holy Light v. Greater Heal

Time Warp v Bloodlust/Heroism

Howl of Terror v Psychic Scream

and this list could get ridiculously long. The point is that the classes DO share abilities, but Blizzard was kind enough to rename them between classes, presumable so that while the average monkey can tell they're the same thing some of the dumber monkeys might not realize they are using the same abilities for different classes.

 

 

 

All of these points boil down into quite an ambiguous definition of Advanced Class. It's obviously not a CORE CLASS (since you can't select a Mercenary AC while playing a Warrior); it's not a COMPLETELY different set of Talent Trees (since the two ACs share a common Tree) and it's playstyle is not entirely UNIQUE between the two ACs (Both Juggernauts and Marauder's Force Leap into combat).

 

And while those two SPECIFIC ACs play similarly to each other (Like Prot Warriors and Tanking Feral Druids), they are actually quite different. In fact, there are more similarities between the Feral Tanking Druid and the Prot Warrior then between the Jugg and Marauder when it comes to game play, rotation, etc. When you compare Sin/Sorc, PT/Merc and Op/Sniper the entire thing becomes even more ridiculous. They share a resource, sure, and some of the abilities are shared, ok. But being on the list and being useful are two entirely different things. Force Lightning is not showing up in an Assassin build. Rocket Punch just doesn't factor in for Mercs. And if you think Shiv made its way into a Sniper's DPS rotation you've got to be kidding. The abilities exist to give you a taste of the play styles before committing to one. That is their stated purpose from Bioware and for most people that seems pretty clear. For some others, though, the strain of not being able to go from Balance Druid to Affliction Warlock (Because insect swarm and corruption are pretty much the same thing, amirite?) seems to be too much

[Inarai]

I wonder what the response from the community would have been if they called it "Base Specialization" instead of "Advanced Class"?

 

The name's irrelevant. It's about definitions. AC's are defined as classes. Period.

[Lauski]

So not crazy, they even said as much!

 

Right then, I hope I didn't offend you. My usage of the word "crazy" was implying that I "figured" that they wanted to design the game around 8, not that I thought it actually was crazy.

 

 

Story is not part of the definition of a class. This game's focus on story does not change that.

 

Don't know about that Inarai. Maybe not in any other MMO, but they definitely push that envelope here. It is their BIGGEST feature. The newest, latest greatest, arguably BEST thing that separates this game from any other MMO. It's all they talk about in their press releases and online videos.

[Inarai]

Right then, I hope I didn't offend you. My usage of the word "crazy" was implying that I "figured" that they wanted to design the game around 8, not that I thought it actually was crazy.

 

I'm just being snarky. They did straight up say it, though - AC's are a way to have 8 classes to a faction yet only need 4 stories to a faction.

 

Don't know about that Inarai. Maybe not in any other MMO, but they definitely push that envelope here. It is their BIGGEST feature. The newest, latest greatest, arguably BEST thing that separates this game from any other MMO. It's all they talk about in their press releases and online videos.

 

That doesn't make it an element of class definition. Just flat out doesn't.

[Lauski]

Yeah, fair enough then Inarai, to disagree. And the same with Lokiliesmith. Great though to find intelligent people to discuss game mechanics with. I completely see where you're both coming from.

 

 

A little more beefing up the leveling options in this game down the road and I'd probably go from where I am now:

 

"It'd be nice to change AC's".

 

 

to:

 

 

"Eh, I don't really care one way or the other* any more".

Edited February 15, 2012 by Lauski

[realID]

I feel your pain, I understand your side of the argument, but I just can't support it.

 

There are truly 8 classes per faction in the game, not 4. A Guardian/Juggernaut is not a Sentinel/Marauder. They share some similar abilities, but they are two very unique, very different classes.

 

Allowing class changes is just too far imo.

[tazdirector]

Quick? I dunno about "quick" buddy Looks like you're similar to me in your posts. Start it off and THEN you get going...

 

Guilty as charged.

 

The point is that the classes DO share abilities, but Blizzard was kind enough to rename them between classes, presumable so that while the average monkey can tell they're the same thing some of the dumber monkeys might not realize they are using the same abilities for different classes.

 

Aren't we all monkeys afterall?

 

Sure, Charge and Feral Charge are similar abilities in different CORE CLASS (no one confuses the Big Bear Butt for a Warrior). But last I checked a Sith Warrior's Force Charge is called Force Charge regardless of the AC selection. That isn't a similar ability, that is the SAME ability that both ACs can use.

 

When you compare Sin/Sorc, PT/Merc and Op/Sniper the entire thing becomes even more ridiculous.

 

Since you used the WoW terminology in your post, I'll do the same. Wouldn't you also say that Prot Paly/Holy Paly, Feral Druid/Boomkin and Enhancement/Elemental Shaman are "even more ridiculous"?

 

Granted (and once again), this isn't WoW. But I find it interesting how folks find the difference between a Marauder and Juggernaut somehow ridiculous when even an Assassin can vary WITHIN it's own AC between a Rogue and Death Knight avoidance tank?

 

In fact, there are more similarities between the Feral Tanking Druid and the Prot Warrior then between the Jugg and Marauder when it comes to game play, rotation, etc.

 

Rotation and gameplay aren't necessary the defining characteristics of a Class here. The "rotation and gameplay" of a Corruption Assassin is quite different than that of a Lightning Assassin.

 

And as many have stated before, we're not asking to switch from a Druid to a Warrior. Those two classes are entirely separate with different "stories", completely different abilities (even if they may do similar actions) and completely different trees.

 

They share a resource, sure, and some of the abilities are shared, ok.

 

Weird, that seems like definition characteristics of the same class.

 

The name's irrelevant. It's about definitions. AC's are defined as classes. Period.

 

For the time being yes. And again, that's why this is the SUGGESTION forum. I'm suggesting that AC's be defined as another layer of talent tree or Class specialization, not the "Fundamentally Different Class Design" that Bioware is currently toting it as.

 

Though I loathe to do so, it helps to prove a point:

The primary definition of Fundamental is: serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying.

 

In my opinion, Bioware's usage of the word Fundamental is flawed when defining Advanced Classes.

 

Using the below visual example to show the player's character selection process:

 

CORE CLASS ---> ADVANCED CLASS ---> SPECIALIZATION

 

The FUNDAMENTAL choice is actually the CORE CLASS. A Juggernaut/Marauder is, at it's basic foundation a Sith Warrior. An Assassin/Sorcerer is, at it's basic foundation, a Sith Inquisitor, etc, etc.

 

I think most would agree, you can NOT have TWO foundations. One will always be the foundation, everything else is built upon that foundation.

 

Right now, Bioware (and most of the playerbase) seems content to allow RE-customization at the third level (Talent Specialization WITHIN an AC). I'm simply arguing that Bioware should also allow RE-customization at the second level, as it is NOT foundational.

[Sixt]

So you define the class by their story, not at all by their play style?

I don't see where you came to this conclusion, and no, I don't define a class by their story. I don't define a class by their playstyle either. A powertech tank plays different from a powertech dps but they both are still BH's.

 

Classes are, in every game, defined by the skills, attributes, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, and general play style that define them.

Agree, except the general playstyle comment. Many games have class that contain "spec's" that have completely unrelated playstyle (wow druid prime example)

 

I get that you are trying to buck the trend but the only reason you are even asking for this is because they let you make the choice at level 10 instead of level 1.

No, I have no problem making a choice at 10, however, if after 10, 20, 40 more levels I don't like that choice, my raid would be able to run, I want to PVP as the other AC, want to try a different role to see if I like it, etc... I would like the option to change.

 

If they created the typical MMO experience of every class having the same story, or even if they just gave 8 base classes and paired them off as they already have you would realize how dumb this suggestion is.

Never made this suggestion. I was simply suggesting, contrary to the poster I quoted 's implication (and your stated fact), that other games, specifically WoW that he referenced, did have other paths through the leveling zones, and thus could be completely different stories (even for the same class.)

 

I am advocating choice! I don't know why choice is such a problem. More choices are a great thing. I want more choices.

 

Example:

 

I have a raid team, one of the tanks has a RL issue and can't play. We have someone who can fill in, that isn't geared for/comfortable tanking, but is willing to heal. One of our healers is comfortable tanking and would be willing to tank, if he could switch his AC, however, he can't!

 

How is this a situation where limiting choice is improving the game? This has now ruined this entire raid team's experience, progression, fun, plans.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Sixt

[VanorDM]

And we are not asking to convert a mage to a warrior, we are asking to convert a mage to a mage that has some different choices, but is still a mage.

 

Yes you are, you are very much asking for exactly that.

 

You want to convert a Guardian into a Sentinel or a Shadow into a Sage. Everything in this game points out how when you hit lvl 10 and pick your Advanced class you are changing what your class is.

 

The very topic of this thread reenforces and proves this very idea, that AC's are Classes, and not just specializations. As far as Bioware is concerned, there is no difference between asking for the ability to change AC's as there is in asking to change from a Guardian to a Gunslinger, in terms of game design, because the AC is your class

[Blades_of_Afro]

If the legacy work like it should I could care less if I can switch char adv class.

[VanorDM]

I am advocating choice! I don't know why choice is such a problem. More choices are a great thing. I want more choices.

 

No what you are advocating is the removal of choice. Because if people can change their AC you have effectively removed 4 of the 8 options that are currently in the game.

Edited February 15, 2012 by VanorDM

[tazdirector]

No what you are advocating is the removal of choice. Because if people can change their AC you have effectively removed 4 of the 8 options that are currently in the game.

 

I think we're really talking about a glass half full/half empty discussion here.

 

By implementing the ability for players to change their AC, the "REMOVAL" of 4 to 8 is the number of times you are asked to level from 1 to 50 if you want to have an opportunity to play every possible class/AC/talent tree specialization available.

 

You're not removing choices, you're simply changing the way the player base has to access these different specialization.

 

As far as Bioware is concerned, there is no difference between asking for the ability to change AC's as there is in asking to change from a Guardian to a Gunslinger, in terms of game design, because the AC is your class

 

I believe this is where you're misreading our requests.

 

You're stating that we're asking for this:

 

CORE CLASS --> ADVANCED CLASS --> SPECIALIZATION

^

^

^

We want to be able to change this

 

When we are ACTUALLY asking for this:

 

CORE CLASS --> ADVANCED CLASS --> SPECIALIZATION

^

^

^

We want to be able to change this

 

Ugh..that was a pain to format.

Edited February 15, 2012 by tazdirector
Didn't want to double post