Vanguarg should have a Ranged DPS tree

[Vankris]

I know vanguard are mostly a melee dps. Even the assault tree rely on stockstrike (4m) proc, as well as ion pulse (10m).

 

 

Why?

I think the game is too heavy in melee dps, there are 5 melee dps class and 3 range class. Giving the vanguard (and the scoundrel) a viable, competitive range dps tree would go a long way to balance things out.

 

 

How

 

Tweaking a few spell/talent and of course balancing it so the ranged output match the melee output of melee tree.

 

Our range (30m) single target attack are

Explosive round (aoe)

Sticky grenade (aoe)

Full auto

High impact Bolt

Assault plastique (share CD with sticky grenade)

hammer shot

Mortar Volley (aoe)

 

i think that's plenty to work out a rotationthough either explosive round or sticky grenade needs to be a pure single target damage dealing, we can have a CC breaking ability in our standard rotation.

 

The biggest problem is the proc of HiB from stockstrike or ion pulse.

 

I see 2 solutions

- a small change to have it proc equaly to range attack (assault plastique or full auto)

- a talent that modify ion pulse, increase range to 30m but with a 2s cast time. only accessible from the assault tree, the cast time does not make it OP.

 

Bonus: To make it interesting, you could work out a proc or a charge build up on ion pulse to have the vanguard use a new ability : Throw the overcharge ion ammo clip that is about to blow up (for RP purpose, no damage on vanguard if he doesn't)

 

 

 

AOE situation

This is a tough one, our only ranged aoe option are

 

Mortar Volley

Sticky grenade

Explosive round

 

Mortar volley and Sticky grenade have too long of a cooldown and explosive round is weak in aoe situation.

 

The way i could see it is adding a new spell with tallent, a sort of a build up

 

Explosive roung make you gain a charge, when you have 3 charge, you unload with some channel aoe spell

 

 

 

Final Word

 

 

I know people would tell me go roll commando if i want a soldier range dps, and on some level i would agree with them.

 

But i strongly believe there is an imbalance Melee/Range class in game (see above) and vanguard/scoundrel are probably the best approach to solve it, somehow, i don't see how we could easily make a ranged dps out of a sentinel.

 

Another way to solve this imbalance would be to add a 5th class, where both AC are ranged but, that is a lot more work to create, make a story, planet, gear, animation, recorded voice over...

 

thanks for your feedback

 

PS: sorry for the duplicate in general trooper forum, i meant to post it here

[VragonBral]

Okay. However much I would enjoy to have a ranged tree for Vanguard. I probably would not use it much, as I would rather prefer to be a "mobile" fighter then a stationary turret. Which is what a lot of ranged DPS is. And should be if its going to be mete'ing out punishment from a distance.

 

Your suggestion to make Ion Pulse 30 meters with a cast time, is not a good idea, it would make us into a pseudo-Commando. I would rather keep it the same. And 30 meter's is just not right for the class. Just have a Talent which increases the range to 15 meter's, but you HAVE to have Plasma Cell activated. And make it so you have to put 5 points into the talent for it to work that way. So then people have to go DEEP into the talents to get the full distance out of it.

 

That way people have to give up some stuff in order to get longer range.

 

But this may be Overpowered, especially with the perma-slow we can put on people from Pulse.

Edited February 7, 2012 by VragonBral

[va_wanderer]

Heh. Taking a look at some of it, there's a few things I gotta say.

 

Ion Pulse is also our auto-snare skill, since Sweltering Heat is a gimme investment for the 2 points it needs. A 2-second snare...with an ability you want to have a 30m range and a 2 second cooldown.

 

Hello, easy-kite.

 

Things I'd do to give us a real ranged DPS tree?

 

1) Swap Heavy Stock in Assault for Demolition in Tactics. We <3 elemental damage more than Shield or Tactics does.

 

2) Drop a point from Burnout, making the skill give +1.5% tech crit and 15% additional periodic damage instead of +1/+10% per rank. At least that way it's reasonably comparable to Blaster Augs.

 

3) Use that spare point to add a one-point talent to Tier 4 Assault (call it, say Ion Booster) that gives Ion Pulse and Pulse Cannon a range of 20m and 15m, respectively. The broader cone gives you better area coverage, the extra 10m for Ion Pulse makes it easier to use without becoming totally nutty for keeping people out of any possible return attacks.

 

4) Have Ionic Accelerator proc off of Ion Pulse at 15/30/45%, and have Pulse Cannon have a 5/10/20% chance of adding a damage bonus to your next Ion Pulse for each target damaged (meaning a single target PC probably won't trip it, but hosing down a crowd should). Remove Stockstrike from the talent entirely.

 

5) Drop a point from Rain of Fire, increasing it's damage bonus to +4.5% per rank in the process.

 

6) Use that spare point to add a one-point talent to Tier 6, called "Improved Munitions". Incendiary Round delivers it's DoT as an area effect. Explosive Round gets a 10% damage bonus and can knock down Strong targets.

 

7) Assault Plastique now also buffs Sticky Grenade damage by 10%, and Assault Trooper also applies it's critical bonus to Sticky Grenade and Explosive Round. They remain on the same cooldown.

[Rogmar]

No? If you want Ranged DPS there's already 3 ACs, one of which is Trooper based. There's more Melee classes because Tanking inherently requires Melee range. Edited February 8, 2012 by Rogmar

[Vankris]

No? If you want Ranged DPS there's already 3 ACs, one of which is Trooper based. There's more Melee classes because Tanking inherently requires Melee range.

 

that's my point, 3 range AC class against 5 melee, Tank are all another thing, i am only talking about DPS

 

i am quite happy with current system anyway, i play vanguard tank.

This is just some thought i had, i understand that many want to keep vanguard a pure melee class but i can't shake the feeling that there is an imbalance.

 

i see it. Forming raid group, often we are too heavy in melee, we always have open slot for range. we have had operation with only one range, if a vanguard or a scoundrel would have had the option to spec into a range class, that would offer a much higher flexibility for raif composition.

[Hirokinae]

You have a very interesting point. The way I see it however, is that the classes MAYBE could use one which favored ranged more, but I dont see vanguards as a PURE melee dps either, in that we dont get completely dicked over like a sentinel or a guardian/shadow when forced out of melee. In addition, even scoundrels have a psuedo-ranged tree they can utilize which makes their damage mostly based on dots.

 

 

The way I see it, Bioware has tried to balance out the classes accordingly:

 

Melee:

Guardian

Sentinel

Shadow

 

Mid-range:

Vanguard

Scoundrel

 

Ranged:

Commando

Gunslinger

Sage

 

 

When you look at it that way, it seems fairly balanced. Even the Scoundrel when speced into dirty fighting leans more towards ranged, while the vanguard when specced into tactics leans more towards melee.

 

Of course, both the vanguard and scoundrel should be in melee to maximize damage, but at the same time, think about the fact that gunslinger/commando/sage all need to be completely stationary and hardcasting everything at range to maximize dps. They aren't as mobile as a vanguard or scoundrel when at ranged because ALL of our attacks are instant, while commandos/sages get messed up when they're forced to move during a cast, and gunslingers can't even use half their abilities when not behind cover.

 

I think a fairy good example is the last boss in karraga's palace. As a vanguard, I find i do m ore damage than any of the other classes because of my mobility. Our sentinel is constantly messed up because if he's not in melee, he's simply just not doing damage and generating force, and its very difficult to stay in melee because of all of the fire in the ground you must avoid, on top of the chance that the gravity well can sometimes suck you in and trap you there staring at the boss herpderping twidling your thumbs.

 

On the other hand, Our commandos get annoyed because the gravity well constantly sucks them in mid-gravround cast. If you get interrupted mid-cast, you've essentially just wasted an entire GCD and more because of the cast time. On top of that, when trying to run and dps, they either have to pray that their HIB is up, or hammershot to victory while moving because its really the only thing they can do on the move while trying to get away from gravity wells =P

 

So i dont have the weakness of the sentinel, because i can still run around with my dots up, HIBing/ionpulsing/hammershotting while gettin in and out of the fire while I only have to be in melee every 9 seconds for stockstrike, and can still usually be in range to ion pulse at least when i get yanked out by the gravity.

 

I also dont have the weakness of the commando because all of my abilities are instant, I can do more than just hammershot while moving out of the gravity well, and never have to stand still for a second. Even if i get yanked, all of my abilities were instant anyways so I never lose a GCD.

 

 

I think its a fairly balanced tradeoff, and vanguards/scoundrels are great "inbetweens" You dont get dicked over when you're out of melee like a sentinel/guardian/shadow, and you never have to stand completely still in order to absolutely maximize your dps like a gunslinger/sage/commando does.

 

I'm glad the OP posted the thread with his valid concerns, and those are my thoughts, what do you guys think? =)

[TheRealRainier]

There's more Melee classes because Tanking inherently requires Melee range.

 

Please explain.

[Notannos]

Hello Everyone,

 

This appears to be a duplicate thread on the forums and to help us consolidate the discussion we will be redirecting this conversation to the original thread here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=278453

 

We ask that threads regarding the same topic be discussed in one thread. Thank You!

[va_wanderer]

That's why I ended up suggesting the tweaks I did, vs. outright rearranging a lot of the Assault abilities.

 

I like being a ranged tank. Assault lets me kite things, duck behind cover as needed when a mob winds up with a big shot, pepper it with lightning/plasma/HIB's at range and mitigate melee attacks by simply not being there vs. shootier mobs. For me, I'm all for Stockstrike being the bread and butter of Shield, but it shouldn't have to be there for a tree that begs for a little range and functions around refreshing High Impact Bolt, has two 30m attacks (Plastique and Inc. Round)...and with very little work, wouldn't need Stockstrike in it's rotations at all. I'd be delighted to have my 10-30m fighting smoother, and IMHO it's quite possible.