SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[Jjix]

I agree.

 

 

1) The trinity system isn't a realistic representation of combat. I'm not saying that everything should be a twitch system. However, if we were to envision a realistic approach to going out and fighting, say, a dragon, you're probably not lining up one or two huge, slow guys in plate armor to shout obscenities at the beast while 18 other people poke it in the behind with sticks and spells.

 

Real-life (and believable fantasy) combat relies on two mechanics -- avoidance, and mitigation, and the latter can only take you so far when that dragon lowers its forearm to crush you. Ergo, a bigger reliance on dodging and movement is needed. Additionally, all members of a group should be required to be more self-reliant about their own survival -- the age of the dedicated healer, whose sole job is to stand behind the lines showering players with mystical white light -- needs to come to a close. Not only do healers remain a woefully underplayed class in every theme park MMO, they a) lack believability, and b) lack an epic feel for a majority of gamers. Personally, I look at MMO healers as cads who would rather stare at a series of bars all game than actually swing their sword, and I am hardly alone in this. I would never play one, and that's never going to change.

 

 

This was an amazing post. I pretty much agree with everything you wrote and really appreciate your insights. I quoted this one particular section, however, because just today I was in a Mand group with a Veteran and a couple of average players, probably former WoW. We lacked a real healer and the former WoW players were kinda concerned, but the Vet just couldn't wait to run the mission without a healer because he knew what I knew . . . this was going to be fun. It was so fun and we rocked it with no deaths, but the tank in the group was angry because we didn't continue to play Trinity style. It was the closest PvE had felt to PvP thus far in the game for me. Everyone had to use all their skill to survive and you actually felt like a kick-*** hero rather than a bot.

[ShaftyMcShaft]

It's not Bioware's fault if someone power-levels to 50 then complains there's nothing to do.

 

Yes, it is, because it's a subscription-based MMO. That would be fine for a single-player game (which it turns out is what BW made). But a persistent-world subscription based game is supposed to provide lots of stuff to do once you've reached the easily-attainable level cap.

 

I leveled 1-50 as a healer, completed every quest on each planet including the side quests and all the heroics (except maybe 2?), didn't spacebar anything except some side quests after level 35, did most of the flashpoints along the way, maxed out my professions, bought all my skills and speeders and that took a whopping 110 hours /played. That's like the playtime of 2 SNES Final Fantasy games (except in those games you're playing the entire time, not wasting 5 minutes running through orbital stations). How is completing that amount of content in a month and a half "rushing?"

 

And the difference between the "hardcore power-leveler" and the "casual imma take my time" dude is like 2 months. Unless you just force yourself to only play an hour a week or something (in which case, why are you paying for a subscription?), you're going to hit max level in a few weeks and find yourself in the same situation as the rest of us. We're just you a month or two in the future.

 

It's just sad. It was so promising and then failed so hard. I can't believe I forgot to unsub before it charged me for 3 more months

[TonyIommi]

Yes, it is, because it's a subscription-based MMO. That would be fine for a single-player game (which it turns out is what BW made). But a persistent-world subscription based game is supposed to provide lots of stuff to do once you've reached the easily-attainable level cap.

 

 

It is not Biowares job to cater to the minority. It's their job to make a game people will want to play and make tons of money doing it. You can NEVER and I mean NEVER keep those kinds of people happy.

[ShadoeWrayth]

Ok, I am expecting some sort of flames for this, but in reality, we have a couple different problems:

 

A: Businesses like to make money, so if it cannot be proven to make money, they are very very wary of trying it.

 

Most of the sandbox/open world games came out in the earlier days of the MMO history, and therefore did not have a ton of players. Games that have been out for more than 2 years also tend to scare people from trying them out (especially if they are casual gamers) as it will take FOREVER to catch up. Take the examples we have been given about EVE. Someone who has played for 7 years STILL has not maxed their skills out... well, someone who just now starts is looking at a nigh-impossible task to even amount to something EVER.

 

Due to these reasons, along with most of them NOT being theme-park (so no easily recognizable brand name), lead them to be low population compared to something like WoW (which is technically a pretty good blend of Theme-Park and Sandbox, or at least it was last time I played it)... And if you show a history of holding maybe 300-400 K subscribers, then they will not invest a large amount into your game. If you show a history of 1-2 Million, well, that is a whole different story.

 

B: Casual players are at the same time the best players and the worst players.

 

Casual Players have made the MMO-Scene way more populated, so this is awesome. Casual Players are also generally only attracted to brand-names (Star Wars, Star Trek, Warcraft, Conan, etc) not original IP's (Everquest, Anarchy Online, Lineage, Shadowbane, etc). They also make up a LARGE portion of the populace, as for every Hardcore Player, there are about 4 or 5 Casual Players. The popularity and diversity of MMO's is mainly due to the large amount of these Players. So for those reasons, Casual Players are awesome.

 

But, because of the large portions, and for the fact that they are Casual, Businesses listen to them and we end up with games who will have a 2-4 year lifespan at most (more if they go to F2P models). The object of a large-scale open-world sandbox game is to have TONS to do for a VERY long time. Casual Players do not want that. They want something that within a year of play, they can see almost everything in the game. A year (365 days) at roughly an hour a day average (play more on some days, and not even play on others) on up to maybe 3 hours a day? So ~365-1000 hours AT MOST in the game. SWTOR has 5 /played days per character to lvl 50 (and if you play 2 characters per side - 1 force and 1 non-force, empire/republic) that would amount to 480 hours. Developers claim 200 hours per character, so even if you took your time, read everything, leveled crafting, got full affection, etc... you have 200 X 4... 800 hours... right in the perfect zone.

 

For a Hardcore Player, who plays 6-10 hours per day (not making any assumptions about lifestyle or anything, just pure numbers), that 800 hours is ~ 80 - 135 days. We are at around day 49 (I think?) so we are over halfway through with the game for the truly hardcore players, and over a third of the way through for the least hardcore of the hardcore.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I went through all of this back when Vanguard: Saga of Heroes came out also. The main issue that Hardcore Players have IS Casual Players. The reason? Because, even though there are a myriad games for them to play, when a SINGLE hardcore title comes out, they feel they MUST twist it to be Casual as best as they can, and who are the businesses going to listen to, the 20% of the total gaming populace, or the 80%? Money is money, and damn the vision. Yes, Vanguard came out with a lot of issues/errors, but this was made SEVERELY worse by the designers trying to basically rewrite the game so that the unexpected influx of players will be happy and keep paying, instead of only worrying about fixing the issues in the game.

 

So, yes, it is fine that all of you casual gamers have tons of games, play them, enjoy them, move on from game to game at your leisure. But Hardcore Players not only play a lot, but they play for a very long time (something Businesses appear NOT to notice). STO was out for a couple years at most before going F2P, LOTRO was out for 3 years, etc etc... Everquest has been out since 1999 (12 years), DAoC from 2001 (just celebrated 11 years), Asheron's Call from 1999 (12 years), Ultima Online from 1997 and still running...

 

These games resisted the Casual Players' call, and stayed true to vision. If you can run a game for 10+ years with an initial of 400K players for a year and an average of 200K players stable, vs a game that runs 3 years average with a million for the first couple months, then maybe 700K stable from then on... the amount brought in, really is NOT that different.

 

But, any Hardcore title coming out recently has failed due to the CRIES and SCREAMS of people who the game was NOT meant for, the ones who were not content to play their short titles meant for Casual Play.

 

Sorry for the rant, but there it is, that is why we probably won't see anymore sandbox/open world games: They take too long to play, and Casual Players don't have that kind of time. They will insist on much faster movement speeds (shrinks the world effectively) and instant travel galore (shrinks it EVEN more), will insist on fast leveling, etc etc... All the things that make the game go by faster, so that community is a joke, and the whole idea of a vast open world experience is now a tiny easily navigable child's sandbox...

[Ansultares]

^^^

 

Above rant is pretty good.

 

Though the AC reference.... AC was my first MMO; never have I been more disappointed to see what a game became than when I first looked at returning to AC close to six years after its release.

 

And it wasn't a content failure, necessarily; players began heavily using bot programs, and apparently the developers didn't or couldn't stop them. Six years later and the only people left were those who ran bots.

 

But a persistent-world subscription based game is supposed to provide lots of stuff to do once you've reached the easily-attainable level cap.

It's supposed to have a deeper leveling process; WoW wouldn't have succeeded it if bet everything on end-game, either.

 

End-game can be added; leveling is almost never adjusted.

 

That said, gear grinds really aren't interesting end-game content. Needs good PvP and sandbox elements like playerhousing to keep people interested at level cap.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Ansultares

[fujeo-finel]

Yes, it is, because it's a subscription-based MMO. That would be fine for a single-player game (which it turns out is what BW made). But a persistent-world subscription based game is supposed to provide lots of stuff to do once you've reached the easily-attainable level cap.

 

I leveled 1-50 as a healer, completed every quest on each planet including the side quests and all the heroics (except maybe 2?), didn't spacebar anything except some side quests after level 35, did most of the flashpoints along the way, maxed out my professions, bought all my skills and speeders and that took a whopping 110 hours /played. That's like the playtime of 2 SNES Final Fantasy games (except in those games you're playing the entire time, not wasting 5 minutes running through orbital stations). How is completing that amount of content in a month and a half "rushing?"

 

And the difference between the "hardcore power-leveler" and the "casual imma take my time" dude is like 2 months. Unless you just force yourself to only play an hour a week or something (in which case, why are you paying for a subscription?), you're going to hit max level in a few weeks and find yourself in the same situation as the rest of us. We're just you a month or two in the future.

 

It's just sad. It was so promising and then failed so hard. I can't believe I forgot to unsub before it charged me for 3 more months

 

A month and a half for one toon sounds reasonable to me. Another month and a half for gear grinding at 50, multiplied by four different classes with individual stories, not counting auxiliary activities like PvP, crafting and trolling general. Sounds reasonable to me.

[ShaftyMcShaft]

It is not Biowares job to cater to the minority. It's their job to make a game people will want to play and make tons of money doing it.

 

People who want something to do after they hit max level are not the minority, they're the majority. Everyone will hit 50 eventually. Dedicated players might do it in 2-6 weeks, but casual players will get there in 6-12. Regardless, you'll wind up in the same place, with nothing to do.

 

And no, they're not going to have an entire endgame worth of content ready for you when you hit 50 4-6 weeks from now. It'll still be the same buggy nothing.

[LaVolpex]

i dont want a korean grind fest, but i do want slower leveling on this game, the amount of xp you get from stuff is ridiculous, im overleveling stuff so much that its not even a challenge, though its probably just an issue @ 34 something i find that im a good 6 or 7 levels above everything on that planet wich makes it ridiculously easy

 

yes i want slower leveling but without the grindy part, endlessly killing mobs isnt my idea of fun..

 

but , i do think its very important what you said, MAKE ME SPEND MORE TIME IN ZONES , it does create a fair amount of socializing ive met plenty on my server already just via general chat for the planet im on

[ShaftyMcShaft]

A month and a half for one toon sounds reasonable to me. Another month and a half for gear grinding at 50, multiplied by four different classes with individual stories, not counting auxiliary activities like PvP, crafting and trolling general. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

Well, the gear grind at 50 didn't take a month and a half, it took about a week and a half. And rolling an alt and playing the same content over again doesn't count as 'end game content,' certainly not for a subscription game. That's what I expect out of a one-time purchase single player game, like Mass Effect. You can play that over and over again as different classes making different quest choices, but you don't have to pay $15 a month on top of your $60 buy-in to do it.

 

The gear grind is also the same thing over and over again, as it's the same flash points, and the same 3 warzones.

 

Honestly, that's what I really don't get about the endgame...at least with warzones you'd have something different to do every now and then, but instead it's just the same 3 warzones over and over again. It can't be that hard to design additional warzone maps...the WZs are only the size of one of the dozen stupid orbital stations they make us run through. Why not launch with 40 levels of leveling content and spend those extra resources on 30 warzones? At least a few different huttball arenas! But, like I said...themepark...but no rides....

Edited February 8, 2012 by ShaftyMcShaft

[Racheakt]

Theme-Parks are showing their cracks, great post OP.

 

MMO themeparks are suffer the same problem as real themeparks, you rush through all the rides, and you ride them again. This is why the rush to max level is gettteing shorter, you need to rush when the gates open to get all the rides in, and be ready for the next new ride that opens.

 

The best game i ever played socialy was Asheron's Call, i never reached max level. There were few quests, wide open world, no "private" instances. It was blast I miss so much about that game

[ShadoeWrayth]

A month and a half for one toon sounds reasonable to me. Another month and a half for gear grinding at 50, multiplied by four different classes with individual stories, not counting auxiliary activities like PvP, crafting and trolling general. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

so 3 months at who's speed? Is that 3 months of a hardcore 6-10 hours a day? or 3 months at a very casual 1-3 hours a day? Makes a huge difference.

[Ansultares]

The best game i ever played socialy was Asheron's Call, i never reached max level. There were few quests, wide open world, no "private" instances. It was blast I miss so much about that game

I've never met someone who played AC who didn't have rose-colored appreciation for it.

 

Does anyone remember the Tales of Mu?

[Emeda]

It is not Biowares job to cater to the minority. It's their job to make a game people will want to play and make tons of money doing it. You can NEVER and I mean NEVER keep those kinds of people happy.

 

Money should not be thier main priority but apparently it is. They should be making the game for people to enjoy.

 

If all they care about is money then how do you expect the game to get any better? Lets make a crap game and then we will sell an expansion for 60 bucks with the bug fixes. Just think how much money they could make from doing it that way.

[ShadoeWrayth]

Money should not be thier main priority but apparently it is. They should be making the game for people to enjoy.

 

If all they care about is money then how do you expect the game to get any better? Lets make a crap game and then we will sell an expansion for 60 bucks with the bug fixes. Just think how much money they could make from doing it that way.

 

Yes, but they have to string you along for the ride... How do you tell your gaming populace that stuff is getting fixed for 6-12 months, and not actually do it? How do you convince them to stick around instead of going to other games where it IS being done? No, They listen to the 80% group of players, which is sad, because that group doesn't actually know what it wants truly, but they wanna get there fast. Honestly, they should be playing single player games: take your time, get there whenever you feel like it, most are multiplayer now so you can play with/against your friends, etc etc...

 

Also, most of them never reach 50 (or whatever max level is), instead they keep replaying with alts. Most Hardcore Players play a main almost exclusively, and when at max level make more. So, end game is truly an after thought for most games, instead focusing on the early levels and mid levels where the vast majority of their players will be staying for a long time. Eventually, enough will make it to end-game, and by that time, it will have a lot to be done... Meanwhile, Hardcore Players have sat at max level for a month or two, and nothing new was really added, and they quit... but the developers never care, because who needed that 200-500K players anyway when you have 1-2 Million players who stay?

[ShaftyMcShaft]

It's supposed to have a deeper leveling process; WoW wouldn't have succeeded it if bet everything on end-game, either.

 

Besides the personal story, do you think SWTOR has a deeper leveling process than WoW? Vanilla or the Cata revamp, take your pick.

 

WoW is not lacking a story...there's TONS of lore and story and memorable characters from zone to zone...you just have to actually read the quest text instead of having it read to you.

 

SWTOR is very much a WoW clone...the whole theme-park concept is what separated WoW from previous MMOs, and what TOR set out to create. But then they kinda half-assed it.

 

So, the leveling experience...in WoW you had a feeling of exploration because you could take lots of different paths to get where you were going, or go somewhere else entirely. If you saw a mountain in the distance, there's a pretty good chance you could go climb that mountain. Curious what's at the bottom of that lake? Dive in and see! You could interact with the world, like even non-quest givers have things to say to you, or you could actually sit down in a chair or something. NPCs wandered around towns doing things or saying things or whatever.

 

In SWTOR...you can't interact with anything. You can't play the casino games. You can't sit down at the cantina. Nothing MOVES. It's "World of Statues." Nothing dynamic happens in the world, like day and night cycles, or weather (I know WoW did add weather until months after release, yes).

 

And as for combat...you actually had to worry about dying leveling in vanilla wow, because you'd have mobs that would run away in fear when they were at low HP if you didn't stop them, and maybe aggro another pack. But pirates and brigands in SWTOR are dedicated to their cause, man. They will fight to the death, every last one of 'em. And sometimes you'd be fighting a mob or two and not realize an elite patrol was on its way, and suddenly you're getting pwned. Or maybe you'd get feared into another pack. Or turned into a sheep. Or something. But in SWTOR...there is no AI. Every mob stands still as a statue until you approach, then attacks you on sight, doesn't call for help, and fights to the death. From levels 1 through 50.

 

It's a themepark, but there's no rides. There's nothing to see or experience because the world is dead and lifeless. There's nothing to explore because you're surrounded by corridors at all times, and no you can't climb that mountain or swim in that lake. There's nothing to play with because you can't interact with anything. There's no challenges to overcome because every mob fights in the same no-brains way.

 

I expect if you're going to copy WoW's themepark approach, at least try to do it as well as they did 7 years ago. But to do it worse? Less to explore, less to fight, less to experience. You're just running from cutscene to cutscene. They should just eliminate the "game" part and make it a CGI movie. Would have just as much entertainment value.

Edited February 8, 2012 by ShaftyMcShaft

[ActionPrinny]

The irony of the situation is that the playerbase wants unattainable and conflicting things in an MMO.

 

• If you make a game like WoW, they quit because it's too much like WoW. (And usually go back to WoW *boggle*)
  
• If you try to innovate, everyone asks why things aren't more like WoW and they're trying to be unique snowflakes and it "sucks."
  
• Lots of people complain that gear-grinds are boring now, and there is no innovation anymore and quit.
  
• Games that are based more on social content and sandbox elements are deemed "boring and have no content" and they quit.
  

 

I also think people are missing a distinction here: There is a difference between a Sandbox game and one with Sandbox elements.

 

One doesn't live at a theme park. You go TO the theme park and go HOME afterwards. Right now there is no home to go to. We are just paupers sleeping under the tables in the Vaiken Cantina.

[ShaftyMcShaft]

The irony of the situation is that the playerbase wants unattainable and conflicting things in an MMO.

 

• If you make a game like WoW, they quit because it's too much like WoW. (And usually go back to WoW *boggle*)
  
• If you try to innovate, everyone asks why things aren't more like WoW and they're trying to be unique snowflakes and it "sucks."
  
• Lots of people complain that gear-grinds are boring now, and there is no innovation anymore and quit.
  
• Games that are based more on social content and sandbox elements are deemed "boring and have no content" and they quit.
  

 

You're missing the variation on point 1: You make a game like WoW, but not as good as WoW.

 

This game is exactly like WoW. Pick 1 of 2 factions. Pick 1 of 8-10 classes, SWTOR classes being mostly mirrors of WoW classes (see funny warrior ability jpg). Pick spec. Go do quests mostly of the "kill X wolves/collect Y spleens/deliver this package." Level. Put points in cookie-cutter talent builds. Make group with tank/healer/dps for dungeons/fps. At max level, grind gear from dungeons, do dailies, queue for bgs/wzs, do raids/ops.

 

The ONLY thing SWTOR innovated is the voice acted personal storyline, which is just a window-dressing thing.

 

In every other way, it's exactly like WoW, only not quite as good. And I'm not even talking about "features," like LFD, LFR, searchable bags, group summons, etc. I mean just the basic parts of the game itself.

 

WoW: open world, seamless except when switching continents. Day/night cycles. Weather. Interactive NPCs who move and talk. Items you can interact with, like doors to open or chairs to sit in. Mini games at the darkmoon faire.

 

SWTOR: constrained, claustrophobic world on rails. Loading screens between everything. Pointless orbital stations. Static world with no night no day no weather or climbing no swimming no flying. NPCs are silent statues. Nothing to click on or use.

 

WoW: multiple quest paths/zones to choose from while leveling (Westfall or Loch Modan or Darkshore?). You can level 2-3 characters and almost never do the same quest twice until the last few zones. Mobs that will patrol and interfere with your fights, that will run when they're low on HP, that will summon for help, that will fear you or otherwise do things that might surprise you. Quest areas that overlap between factions so you might see PvP on a PvP server and have interesting things happen.

 

SWTOR: one quest path on rails. Play through twice, 80% of the game is the same. Static mobs that have no AI besides "See player. Attack player til dead." Totally separate quest zones that don't even overlap even for the "PvP planet" Ilum dailies. You can level and never see an opposing faction player.

 

WoW: Complex (or at least more somewhat dynamic) class mechanics (talking currently, not vanilla) that require the player to pay attention to buffs, procs, resources for optimal rotations in healing or damage dealing. Unique class/spec abilities, and a unique 'feel' to each class. Carefully balanced classes (held in check because we can keep the devs honest with meters and logs).

 

SWTOR: Whack-a-mole healing. DPS rotations that can be macroed to one button on a Razer Naga. Total PvP homogenization where every class can stun and knockback. Class balance? Who knows!

 

WoW: Tightly tuned, complex fight mechanics. Raids that take weeks or months to clear at difficulties appropriate for casual guilds or hardcore guilds.

 

SWTOR: Mostly tank-and-spank fights (plus tower of hanoi!). "Nightmare Mode" raids cleared by dozens of guilds within a few weeks of release, "hardmode raids pugged."

 

WoW/SWTOR: Can't say I like the arena method of PvP progression, but come on...random loot bags? Really?

 

WoW definitely has its flaws, but SWTOR exactly tried to copy WoW but did it pretty much worse in every way. The two games are EXACTLY THE SAME...except SWTOR's very similar implementation of whatever it is it's copying from WoW is broken and half-assed.

 

I just don't understand how somebody can dislike WoW, but like SWTOR, when they're the same game, only SWTOR is not as well implemented. It's like saying "ugh, I hate mexican food! It's so gross, it's all just meat, cheese and tortillas! Can't STAND mexican food! But ya know what I love? TACO BELL. Best food EVAR." What? Taco Bell is just a terrible, plastic, crappy version of something like mexican food. It's the same thing, only worse! How can you hate WoW, but like SWTOR? SWTOR is EXACTLY LIKE WoW only worse!

 

And man I need to close this browser window. I just wasted 15 minutes of my life typing that.

[ocping]

You're missing the variation on point 1: You make a game like WoW, but not as good as WoW.

 

This game is exactly like WoW. Pick 1 of 2 factions. Pick 1 of 8-10 classes, SWTOR classes being mostly mirrors of WoW classes (see funny warrior ability jpg). Pick spec. Go do quests mostly of the "kill X wolves/collect Y spleens/deliver this package." Level. Put points in cookie-cutter talent builds. Make group with tank/healer/dps for dungeons/fps. At max level, grind gear from dungeons, do dailies, queue for bgs/wzs, do raids/ops.

 

The ONLY thing SWTOR innovated is the voice acted personal storyline, which is just a window-dressing thing.

 

In every other way, it's exactly like WoW, only not quite as good. And I'm not even talking about "features," like LFD, LFR, searchable bags, group summons, etc. I mean just the basic parts of the game itself.

 

WoW: open world, seamless except when switching continents. Day/night cycles. Weather. Interactive NPCs who move and talk. Items you can interact with, like doors to open or chairs to sit in. Mini games at the darkmoon faire.

 

SWTOR: constrained, claustrophobic world on rails. Loading screens between everything. Pointless orbital stations. Static world with no night no day no weather or climbing no swimming no flying. NPCs are silent statues. Nothing to click on or use.

 

WoW: multiple quest paths/zones to choose from while leveling (Westfall or Loch Modan or Darkshore?). You can level 2-3 characters and almost never do the same quest twice until the last few zones. Mobs that will patrol and interfere with your fights, that will run when they're low on HP, that will summon for help, that will fear you or otherwise do things that might surprise you. Quest areas that overlap between factions so you might see PvP on a PvP server and have interesting things happen.

 

SWTOR: one quest path on rails. Play through twice, 80% of the game is the same. Static mobs that have no AI besides "See player. Attack player til dead." Totally separate quest zones that don't even overlap even for the "PvP planet" Ilum dailies. You can level and never see an opposing faction player.

 

WoW: Complex (or at least more somewhat dynamic) class mechanics (talking currently, not vanilla) that require the player to pay attention to buffs, procs, resources for optimal rotations in healing or damage dealing. Unique class/spec abilities, and a unique 'feel' to each class. Carefully balanced classes (held in check because we can keep the devs honest with meters and logs).

 

SWTOR: Whack-a-mole healing. DPS rotations that can be macroed to one button on a Razer Naga. Total PvP homogenization where every class can stun and knockback. Class balance? Who knows!

 

WoW: Tightly tuned, complex fight mechanics. Raids that take weeks or months to clear at difficulties appropriate for casual guilds or hardcore guilds.

 

SWTOR: Mostly tank-and-spank fights (plus tower of hanoi!). "Nightmare Mode" raids cleared by dozens of guilds within a few weeks of release, "hardmode raids pugged."

 

WoW/SWTOR: Can't say I like the arena method of PvP progression, but come on...random loot bags? Really?

 

WoW definitely has its flaws, but SWTOR exactly tried to copy WoW but did it pretty much worse in every way. The two games are EXACTLY THE SAME...except SWTOR's very similar implementation of whatever it is it's copying from WoW is broken and half-assed.

 

I just don't understand how somebody can dislike WoW, but like SWTOR, when they're the same game, only SWTOR is not as well implemented. It's like saying "ugh, I hate mexican food! It's so gross, it's all just meat, cheese and tortillas! Can't STAND mexican food! But ya know what I love? TACO BELL. Best food EVAR." What? Taco Bell is just a terrible, plastic, crappy version of something like mexican food. It's the same thing, only worse! How can you hate WoW, but like SWTOR? SWTOR is EXACTLY LIKE WoW only worse!

 

And man I need to close this browser window. I just wasted 15 minutes of my life typing that.

 

/signed

 

SWTOR is really just a StarWars-themed clone of WoW that's inferior on every level other than (1) fresh faces/content (2) voice-acting.

[gregordunbar]

IMHO this is more risky than the alternatives. Spending $150M on a game designed to allow people to hit max level in 5 days /played. And then what initial end-game content you had is fairly obtuse and obfuscated. Then no fluff elements at all to distract people between content updates.

 

But that is where you are wrong seeing as how they more than likely already are near turning a profit just like most MMORPGs of this nature tend to turn a profit faster due to a higher playerbase.

 

A game like this will shine if a few people at Bioware are slapped into realizing they need to throw in some actual MMORPG elements like vanity items, more clothing/costumes...a card game for the cantinas and that their crafting system looks weak even when compared to EQ1/AC1 crafting from 12 YEARS ago.

 

It just needs more depth, the kind of dpeth most games of this type actually release with.

[souloferdrick]

No dichotomy exists between sub genres. The mass market MMO and mass market MMO players are the problem but they cancel each other out.

[Blackardin]

SWTOR right now however, is suffering a "death by a thousand paper cuts" as it were, with regards to quality-of-life design issues, and the unguided state of post-50 content. There are myriad little design annoyances with the game that when compounded, have a sizable affect on peoples' perceptions of the game. Combine that with the sink-or-swim nature of content once you reach L50, and it's no wonder server populations are already dwindling.

 

Don't agree at all.

 

Honestly, this sounds like a lot of pre-grad theorizing, because its just not happening. The little annoyances are just that, little annoyances. They are not game breaking except for the most picky, particular of players (which is usually the type that rocket through to max level in a week). The supporting statement regarding sever population is conjecture. Except for the random post on these boards, I'm just not seeing this mass discontent.

 

If you truly are studying design, in particular game design, then you would understand that end game content is never ready at release. We experienced this same phenomenon during the first months of Wow, and to a lesser degree, Everquest. We experienced the same type of arguments promulgating its demise.

 

Further, extended leveling, forced group play or interaction have both failed when attempted, and were a motivating factor in the migration from Everquest to Wow. Extended grind it not the answer. It will not slow down the extreme gamers and it will do little to enhance the gaming experience for those that desire a more comfortable pace and means by which to get there.

 

I would contend that this has been the most enjoyable leveling ground that I've ever encountered. I would contend that there is a small minority that disagree with that assertion. It has been quite painless moving toward end-game having a mini-series to watch along the way. It is making "getting there" enjoyable rather then tedious, and that should be the goal.

 

If Wow has taught us anything, it is that end game is where it is at....and there is alot that can be done with it over the years. Its more akin to the relationship between childhood and adulthood, and the year to year ratio involved. Getting there should be fun and painless, not long and drawn out....and getting there is the first minor step in the scheme of things.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Blackardin

[souloferdrick]

If Wow has taught us anything, it is that end game is where it is at....and there is alot that can be done with it over the years.

 

WoW showed the market how you can coax a lot of money out of a lot of peoples pockets over the course of years with a borrowed formula and borrowed lore and wrap it up in a package of mediocrity to be lapped up by the wal mart masses to the tune of huge profits.

 

The real heroes over at ActiBlizzard is the PR and marketing departments who managed to convince a lot of people they were playing on the cutting edge while addicting your sorry *** to mini fluff side shows like achievements which they borrowed from other game cultures and sold to you as some sort of revelation.

Edited February 8, 2012 by souloferdrick

[ShaftyMcShaft]

WoW showed the market how you can coax a lot of money out of a lot of peoples pockets over the course of years with a borrowed formula and borrowed lore and wrap it up in a package of mediocrity to be lapped up by the wal mart masses to the tune of huge profits.

 

The real heroes over at ActiBlizzard is the PR and marketing departments.

 

Which is exactly what EA/BW has done. Borrowed formula, implemented worse, wrapped up with ZOMGLIGHTSABERS, sold for big profits.

[FinNaritus]

Don't agree at all.

 

Honestly, this sounds like a lot of pre-grad theorizing, because its just not happening. The little annoyances are just that, little annoyances. They are not game breaking except for the most picky, particular of players (which is usually the type that rocket through to max level in a week). The supporting statement regarding sever population is conjecture. Except for the random post on these boards, I'm just not seeing this mass discontent.

 

If you truly are studying design, in particular game design, then you would understand that end game content is never ready at release. We experienced this same phenomenon during the first months of Wow, and to a lesser degree, Everquest. We experienced the same type of arguments promulgating its demise.

 

Further, extended leveling, forced group play or interaction have both failed when attempted, and were a motivating factor in the migration from Everquest to Wow. Extended grind it not the answer. It will not slow down the extreme gamers and it will do little to enhance the gaming experience for those that desire a more comfortable pace and means by which to get there.

 

I would contend that this has been the most enjoyable leveling ground that I've ever encountered. I would contend that there is a small minority that disagree with that assertion. It has been quite painless moving toward end-game having a mini-series to watch along the way. It is making "getting there" enjoyable rather then tedious, and that should be the goal.

 

If Wow has taught us anything, it is that end game is where it is at....and there is alot that can be done with it over the years. Its more akin to the relationship between childhood and adulthood, and the year to year ratio involved. Getting there should be fun and painless, not long and drawn out....and getting there is the first minor step in the scheme of things.

 

More people agree with him than you. Enough said. Players are unhappy, theres a reason why. Building a community with a definite social interaction helps the MMO. Look at SWG for an example, look at their cantinas, THEIR Galactic Trade Market. Its a sandbox social niche. THats what make MMO's fun. Right now it isnt fun for the many of us. For you, but not for the many. ActionPrinny brought out a great issue, and i agree, we need a little sandbox for us to play in.

[Emeda]

Which is exactly what EA/BW has done. Borrowed formula, implemented worse, wrapped up with ZOMGLIGHTSABERS, sold for big profits.

 

You are correct but that doesnt mean the game was a success it just mean the game made a profit for them. There is a big difference between the two.