aikitexan Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Let me start by saying that I have a 50 Van, and a 40 Shadow. I have been playing since day 1 of pre-release. So, that being stated, I started a Jugg; mainly for the storyline. My question (in the title) refers to why is there so much complaining about juggs? I hear constantly that they "suck" and are under powered, and a bit squishy. I am confused because from what I've seen they do just as well as most other classes. Are they just harder to play to have the same results? I haven't PvP yet, and I'm only lvl 14 with him. He seems to have just as much survivability as my vanguard or shadow did. I usually play tank/dps hybrids on my others, and I plan on doing the same here. BTW, the warrior story has got to be the best in the whole game, imo. Edited February 5, 2012 by aikitexan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomfeeder Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Honestly I think people just like to complain. I love my jugg, he's a beast. But looking around the forums pretty much every class is moaning...even the ones that have everything going for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Yeah...saw some operatives complaining. ***! lol...they are the only thing I fear in PvP (as do most other vans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldskoolfunk Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Let me start by saying that I have a 50 Van, and a 40 Shadow. I have been playing since day 1 of pre-release. So, that being stated, I started a Jugg; mainly for the storyline. My question (in the title) refers to why is there so much complaining about juggs? I hear constantly that they "suck" and are under powered, and a bit squishy. I am confused because from what I've seen they do just as well as most other classes. Are they just harder to play to have the same results? I haven't PvP yet, and I'm only lvl 14 with him. He seems to have just as much survivability as my vanguard or shadow did. I usually play tank/dps hybrids on my others, and I plan on doing the same here. BTW, the warrior story has got to be the best in the whole game, imo. I think that the gameplay mechanics for melee in SWTOR are a bit different for a lot of folks to wrap their heads around. There is also a good bit of people probably making unrealistic expectations about the class. The squishy argument is usually a part of a conversation where heavy armor is discussed. I will say that the squishy part is more a factor of two things. Force charge typically makes you the first target for a groups alpha strike, and as a dps jugg you have less mitigation to handle it. Though understanding that limitation you can get past a lot of problems. Plus Sith Warriors have one of the better Heroic Moments in my opinion. Reset cool down on Saber Ward and add a HOT? Yes please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eshinai Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Solo, leveling, Juggs hold up adequately. However, in competition (group, ops, PvP), they have some definite gaps. I believe the flaws are a result of class being designed and left unpolished while the remainder of the game was finished. Other classes benefited from the innate refinement and were more finished than Sith Warriors' design. Question is when we'll see Devs revisit the class, as it won't be a minor update and every other class/AC is going to demand a 'review' if Sith Warriors finally get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 . However, in competition (group, ops, PvP), they have some definite gaps. This is what I don't understand. I've seen really good juggs who just won't die, or put out a bunch of dps (~300k), and great at just causing a rucuss, which, imo, is the main job of a tank: distract. Now, I know that the Jedi Guardian is messed up, but thats because of timing and animation issues. I started a Guardian 1st and abandoned him for that reason, however, I have not noticed those issues to be as BIG with the Jugg. So, what you are saying is that the Devs purposefully (or EA made them hurry) back shelved probably the most important class in game besides JK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterprtzl Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 How can you judge the class by level 14? The leveling process doesn't even get slightly hard until act 2 (Taris / Hoth specifically). Though on my Jugg I am having no trouble. Marauder was honestly harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tXHereticXt Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) I hear constantly that they "suck" and are under powered, and a bit squishy. Squishy? Hardly. They're only under powered in the sense that their competition (Tech and Sin - tank specs) Can not only manage threat control but also deal substantial DPS as well. So the issue was that a Jugg falls short when the other two can do exactly what it can as well as do more. Now keep in mind, that doesn't mean the class isn't playable. It's just you're working more with less versatility. Edited February 6, 2012 by tXHereticXt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallti Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Mate, you're level 14, you can't seriously think you have a grasp on how the class functions, can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Mate, you're level 14, you can't seriously think you have a grasp on how the class functions, can you? Didnt make a comment about PVE. I did say that I have been playing the game since begining, and that would mean I have seen juggs play, and their stats. Considering I have made no mention of anything other than that...I don't know what you're attacking. Furthermore, at leve 16 my wz avg is no 130k dmg, 20 protection, 2k heals w/ 8 medals. This is what I avg w/ my other toons as well (at or around same lvl). But you're right. I have made no mention of how this class actually plays, or what it does in PVE. I have, however, made mention of my observations with my lvl 50 and 40 in PvP vs juggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Furthermore, at leve 16 my wz avg is no 130k dmg, 20 protection, 2k heals w/ 8 medals. my avg is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbuster Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Honestly, much of the issues surround the PVE Tanking role. Now, before the trolls come out from under their bridge I will place a caveat on my comments, in that, I will make no reference to PVP, as this is not where my experience lays. From an Operations and Flashpoint perspective, Juggernauts are heavily reliant on gear. I found when I hit 50 and started tanking BT HM for the 1st time, my HP yoyo'd, my threat was appallling, and it was very hard going. As my character gathered armoring, mods and enhancements from dailies, things began to become a little easier. Threat was a little easier to come by as well (with the added strength from daily gear). Now with my character in a mix of Rakata and Columi gear, I can make a comment from this standpoint. I spend a hell of a lot of time looking at my action bars waiting waiting and yes waiting for abilities to come off cool down. And there are a lot of abilities, some entirely situational and some with overly long cool downs that form an integral part of threat generation. One of the key things I have found with FP and OPs groups is communication. Let them know Jugg tanks are limited insofar as multi target threat. Jugg Tanks have so much potential with the abilities at hand. Their downside is, they are far from intuitive and require a reasonable level of concentration in order to achieve an optimal result. As opposed to my other Sith Assassin Tank (not as geared mind you) where it is akin to driving an automatic compared to a mack truck where you still have to double clutch to change gears. For all of it's faults and yes there are quite a few, I will still take our my Jugg Tank in preference even though is a hell of a lot more work to do the same thing a Sith Assassin does with a 1/3 of the keybinds. But enough of my ramblings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 So the problem is PVE tanking? I can say that van tanking is hard too...the mobs always go for DPS guys even with the taunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancimus Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 So the problem is PVE tanking? I can say that van tanking is hard too...the mobs always go for DPS guys even with the taunts. 50-Jugg the only thing i havent tanked yet is Ops groups and FE Other than that, i have little problem with threat, when the group follows one rule. "FFS (FOR FORCE SAKE), GIVE ME 3GCDS WORTH OF THREAT" Stating this rule before a run, esp when it's a PUG, and you (the tank) and your bff (the healer) are still testing the water with each other, and want to see how its going to go down. Gotta make sure you get DPS that aren't suffering from ADHD and RLS to the point where they just 'cant help but see dem dere big numbas ova dat bos' Once you get your dps to calm down and figure out whos pumping out the biggest #s slap guard on them and make sure you're hittin that smash on mulitple enemies. I've only had problems when i get CCd off the pull, or i get hard TV (tunnel vission) and i just spam rage building moves and forget they do no damage and i lose threat like a derpstick because the boss only has 10%~ hp left. For PVP (in all of my 10 or so adventures into it since i hit 50) all i can say is 'Wut'? Either i got into the only 10 WZs where the other side had people hitting with wet paper towels instead of Lightsabers and cap guns instead of blaster rifles (Meaning no expertise) Mildly geared (only 17k~ HP with about 48%~ midigaton) i have almost no trouble running the ball in, keeping healers busy, or just generally being a big ole distraction and disrupting other people (which i why i love being a tank, i dont need big numbers, i just wanna mess other peoples days up) Just my 2credits. TL;DR Jug seems fine to a Jug tank, release the hate and 'you be wrong, heres why' retorts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Thank you for the comments, and I think I "tanked" the trolls for you earlier Would you mind sharing your build? I'm lvl 28 now and mostly in Rage, but everyone I talk to is in vengence. It seems that Vengence is more DoTs and Rage is more burst; have you found this to be so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terimac Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Thank you for the comments, and I think I "tanked" the trolls for you earlier Would you mind sharing your build? I'm lvl 28 now and mostly in Rage, but everyone I talk to is in vengence. It seems that Vengence is more DoTs and Rage is more burst; have you found this to be so? iam vengance in pvp and pve and it rocks , rage got boring all it have is good burst and huge numbers , but i perform much better with vengance and is so fun The dots is worthless , shatter dot is the only good one. my specc http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cZIororuddMRZhr.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 all it have is good burst and huge numbers http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cZIororuddMRZhr.1 Do you put up bigger numbers in PvP? More importantly more medals? When I went DoTs over Burst with my Vanguard I didn't pull as good of numbers in PvP, PVE was decent though. In all fairness Tactics sucks for Vanguard anyway. Also, are you in Shien stance? I like it (on paper) but Soresu seems to give so much more. Gear and spec for DPS, but in Soresu you increase survivability, imo. So, is it worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terimac Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Do you put up bigger numbers in PvP? More importantly more medals? When I went DoTs over Burst with my Vanguard I didn't pull as good of numbers in PvP, PVE was decent though. In all fairness Tactics sucks for Vanguard anyway. Also, are you in Shien stance? I like it (on paper) but Soresu seems to give so much more. Gear and spec for DPS, but in Soresu you increase survivability, imo. So, is it worth it? haha no i dont do any 6-7k crits with vengance specc But my overall damage did increase i got my 300k medal for the first time ^^ And on a good run i end up with 11 medals , dont focus on the dots the damage is minimum , well shatter does okey dmg. Its faster gameplay with vengance i think and alot more to do , and hell ye iam in shien form We dont want to be out of rage , i switch to soresu when i think the timing is right , like when last man defending a nod , holding ball , wanna hold the enemy team busy as long as possible and that kind of stuff. and ye one more good thing about vengance is i have way more survivability i sometimes find myself winning 1vs 2 fights And in my specc you can choose the last 2 points in the rage tree on unlesh or 15% crit on the slash attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilhelmScream Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 To be honest, it feels like our damage output is lower than other DPS/tank hybrids. I guess we have to wait for meters to know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 So I respec to the Vengece build that you suggested, and I did output more DPS, but not as much protection. Oh well, recieved the same amount of medals. I am looking forward to this build as I climb the ranks. Honestly, I love the PvP wih this class. I would have to rank it with my Shadow and Vanguard, imo. Is there at least one other distance DPS besides Scream? It would really be OP, but still, I can dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibbie Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Vicious Throw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikitexan Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Oh yeah. Sorry, forgot about that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terimac Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 So I respec to the Vengece build that you suggested, and I did output more DPS, but not as much protection. Oh well, recieved the same amount of medals. I am looking forward to this build as I climb the ranks. Honestly, I love the PvP wih this class. I would have to rank it with my Shadow and Vanguard, imo. Is there at least one other distance DPS besides Scream? It would really be OP, but still, I can dream nice you will find it smooth and good , a tip i didnt always knew i that you get protection medlas when using that aoe taunt scream , so when in a big fight press that and voila you should get 2k and 5k defending medal. Distance attacks is mostly scream , vicious throw and saber throw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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